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rudymoon quit drinking ten months ago


rudymoon

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After being in the hypertensive red zone for four or five hours, my BP broke about 4pm.

 

It's come down and I feel better.

 

4:15 - 141/89/72

 

4:53 - 122/82/68

 

6:05 - 135/85/81

 

The numbers aren't great, but I can survive them.

 

Had a sockeye salmon steak, zucchini and a big tablespoon of rice for dinner.

 

Desert was a gluten-free cookie sweetened with fruit.

 

I'm really sick of drinking spring-water, but do it anyhow.

 

Sups have been on the same schedule as yesterday, although the times never match completely.

 

Even though my BP has moderated, I need to go ahead and take the .1mg Clonidine to get it going on a regular schedule.

 

I'd rather eat dirt than do this, given what I've already been through with pharmaceuticals.

 

I've never experienced such a sense of abject failure and defeat.

 

Oh well, it's just one pill, right?

 

-Rudy

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

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Hillary was apparently given levaquin:

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DNFO_1927ms

 

I won't be the last casualty in this war, but it's getting closer.

 

Someday, people like me won't be left twisting in the wind looking for help.

 

Medical care might consist of more than a perplexed look and a shrug from a physician.

 

Maybe some of that Clinton foundation money can fund needed research into useful therapies for the poisoned.

 

I won't be able to read the stories, but, should I live long enough, I might be able to listen to them.

 

-Rudy

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

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BP at 8:06 was 154/96/63.

 

I'm cold/clammy, queasy, and feel like I've been poisoned (again).

 

I can't walk around like this for days, let alone weeks or months.

 

I'm not expressing a concern about my mental health, but rather about a stroke or heart attack.

 

Is there a drug that will stabilize my CNS the way that gabapentin did?

 

What I'm doing right now is absolutely not working and I'm frightened.

 

If I go to the ER, they aren't going to buy the notion that a 300mg/day dose of gabapentin taken for 12 days has left me in a heap like this, TWO WEEKS LATER.

 

What can I ask them for that will get me through this so that I can then do a proper taper, not a tranquilizer, but a stabilizer?

 

More clonidine really doesn't strike me as the answer.

 

-Rudy

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

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  • Administrator

Hello, Rudy.

 

It sounds like you had a bad reaction to reducing gabapentin, then went off cold turkey, and have had surges of high blood pressure (and other symptoms?) plus sleeplessness ever since.

 

Probably the withdrawal from gabapentin had an outsized effect on your autonomic nervous system because of the severe adverse reaction to Levaquin.

 

As you were taking 100mg gabapentin 3 times a day, you might try reinstating 5mg or 10mg 3 times a day. With any luck, this will stabilize your nervous system.

 

If you don't have an immediate bad reaction to it, it will take at least 4 days for the drug to reach steady-state in your bloodstream. A beneficial effect may happen gradually over time.

 

You may be able to reduce use of the clonidine. How long have you been taking Diovan? What time of day do you take it?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Hello, Rudy.

 

It sounds like you had a bad reaction to reducing gabapentin, then went off cold turkey, and have had surges of high blood pressure (and other symptoms?) plus sleeplessness ever since.

I had taken Gabapentin before, apparently without issue, for nerve pain associated with a surgery. My impression of the med was that it seemed extraordinarily mild. After the first two or three days, I noticed no effect at all. I took it for about 2.5 months, and stopped when I ran out of pills. The scrip wasn't expired, but I couldn't tell that it was helping either. I spent one week at 200mg/day, then finished with 100mg/day for a week.

 

That was shortly before the levaquin disaster.

 

This time around, post-levaquin, everything was different. I felt whacked all the time, dizzy, and had trouble walking in a strait line. I never upped the dose because of this. As was the case the first time around, I wanted to discontinue the med because I just wasn't sensing the reward. The neuropathy was a little better, but not dramatically so. Increasing the dose would have helped, but I figured that the side effects would escalate as well.

 

I still think that the bizarro reaction to taking the dose five hours late was owed partly to taking it with a magnesium and melatonin dose. Like I said, I won't be trying that combo again

 

Probably the withdrawal from gabapentin had an outsized effect on your autonomic nervous system because of the severe adverse reaction to Levaquin.

The levaquin altered a lot of things. There are whole classes of drugs, NSAIDS for instance, that are like poison to me. The 236mg of aspirin found in a dose of pepto bismol set off a flare in me that was physically devastating. The eye problem that I'm battling now is linked directly to that incident. That's just one example.

 

As you were taking 100mg gabapentin 3 times a day, you might try reinstating 5mg or 10mg 3 times a day. With any luck, this will stabilize your nervous system.

I was actually taking 3x100mg once per day, at about 9pm. I never upped the dose for reasons already mentioned

 

If you don't have an immediate bad reaction to it, it will take at least 4 days for the drug to reach steady-state in your bloodstream. A beneficial effect may happen gradually over time.

Willing to give that a stab, but should I try the reduced dose in a single administration, or three?

 

You may be able to reduce use of the clonidine.

The sooner, the better. As is, I'm dealing with rebound hypertension that's really nasty. The only real alternative is to take the drug three times per day. That would be the end of my eyes, I'm afraid.

 

long have you been taking Diovan? What time of day do you take it?

I've been taking Diovan for almost 20 years. Cocktails didn't touch the post-levaquin BP spikes. A beta-blocker took my pulse to 37! I tried Benicar and Avapro which are from the same family as diovan, but neither was as effective. I take the diovan between 7-8 daily. I tried switching it to the evening, but that didn't work.

 

Thoughts or comment?

 

Thanks for responding,

 

-Rudy

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

Link to comment
  • Administrator

It's possible you are getting an adverse reaction from Diovan, as your nervous system has been changed by levaquin and then adverse reaction to gabapentin.

 

Please take careful notes of your symptom pattern for the 6 hours after you take Diovan. It takes 2-4 hours to reach peak plasma, you may feel an escalating effect. If it sets off a blood pressure spike around the same time each day, you are having a paradoxical reaction to Diovan (your nervous system is rebelling against the effect).

 

Once you rule an adverse reaction to Diovan, I would try 5mg gabapentin and see how that goes.

 

As you take Diovan early in the day, I'd try 5mg gabapentin 6 hours later. Gabapentin has a short half-life of 5-7 hours. To get 24-hour coverage, which is what you'd want to stabilize blood pressure, I would take it every 8 hours (but try 5mg once a day first).

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Rudy,

I spent a some time reading about clonidine, because I was curious about some of the and symptoms you have been worried about recently.  I was able to find a few interesting things that might help you.  I found more than one or two anecdotal reports of these side effects you already suffer from: blurred vision, anxiety, insomnia and headaches.  I found one article written by a doctor who mentioned going to see a doc if you had blurred vision (I assume you mentioned this to your doc). 

 

It was a little hard for me to find a doctor recommended schedule for reducing dosage, but alas, I found a reputable article by a doctor who gave a tapering schedule: 10% reduction every 2-3 weeks.  I do not know if it is possible for you, but you may want to consult with a doctor for a different full time vs PRN (take as needed) BP med prior to tapering. It sounds like you have tried  other BP meds already, so this may be easier said than done. The biggest side effect from tapering being rebound hypertension, followed by anxiety (which can also increase your BP), so I looked into the recommended dosage of Diovan to see if this could possibly be increased, but you are on the highest recommended dose as it is, so no go there. They may be able to find another, though? I am very concerned about your BP upon commencing your taper if you do not have another med on board already. I know this is not great news, but I was concerned enough to put my medical research "cap" on, and spent some time looking around for good, solid information.  This is not medical advice, just the information I found online ( mentioned on more than one reputable site), that I hoped would help you in some way.

 

One thing I have learned about docs, is that that they seem to try to taper us off of meds much more quickly than our bodies can handle in many cases, especially if we have comorbidities (other health issues). You may or may not want to consider lengthening the withdrawal period, or lowering the percentage for each drop. 

 

Other side effects noted during tapering (other than the big 2 mentioned above): irritability (severe in some cases), restlessness, flu symptoms, worsening insomnia, headaches, vertigo, and unsteadiness, amongst others.

 

One very positive note I found, and I thought this was interesting, as you have included your meals in your information here, is that the doc who wrote the main article that I drew information from says that if you have a good, balanced diet, you will have a much easier time coming off of this medication. YAY!!

 

I truly hope that some of this will be helpful to you.

 

Good luck!

S.

Current meds: Lexapro 20mg, Valium 6.25mg
Current status: September 2018 forced to go down to 10mg of Valium/Diazepam from around 15mg, with the plan to have me totally of in 2 more months. I was not given a chance to give input at tapering at this speed, please go much, much slower. Luckily I found a new doctor, but was thrown off course by my rapid taper, as of 2/19 am down to 6.25mg, and am stable. Will update with dates of taper ASAP.
Read my history here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/12819-skeeters-journey/

   
I am NOT a doctor. My opinions are just that- MY opinions, based on my personal experiences and research, but your experience and reactions may differ greatly, we are all different! I maintain that a doctor educated in withdrawal is the best place to get info or to get the "go ahead" before changing your medications in any way!

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Hey Ruby - I'm with Alto - 

 

The flox changed everything, and coming off Gabapentin has been known to cause withdrawal effects and Dysautonomia / Autonomic Dysregulation.

 

The diovan may not be your friend anymore.  It seems weird to go on Gabapentin for high blood pressure (It's a seizure med, not a BP med), but if your BP spikes are caused by withdrawal, it may be just what you need.  So I would agree with Alto, to take notes to see if diovan might be part of the problem.  Her instincts are really quite amazing.

 

Since this is so complex, it might behoove you to find a consulting pharmacist who may be able to find what it optimum for you.

 

We don't have much experience with blood pressure here, other than as a side effect of withdrawal.

 

You will have to try some things yourself, and the best thing to arm yourself with is a log of symptoms and doses.

I'm sorry you are going through this.  

"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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It's possible you are getting an adverse reaction from Diovan, as your nervous system has been changed by levaquin and then adverse reaction to gabapentin.

 

Please take careful notes of your symptom pattern for the 6 hours after you take Diovan. It takes 2-4 hours to reach peak plasma, you may feel an escalating effect. If it sets off a blood pressure spike around the same time each day, you are having a paradoxical reaction to Diovan (your nervous system is rebelling against the effect).

No problems with BP so far today. The pattern has been that it is troublesome late afternoon and evenings. That's not to say that its never gone critical earlier. I can't handle stress at all since floxing. I'm a computer geek, but any hint of trouble with an app makes me crazy. Any challenge mentally or physically puts me on edge. I'm having to learn to turn those reactions off as there's a physiological response that goes hand in hand with the emotional/mental one.

 

I take diovan because it's the mildest thing out there. My concern about it is that it's processed over the liver's P-450 detox pathway. That road gets hosed in a lot of levaquin poisonings. Because of that, I may be struggling to eliminate toxins that it may produce. However, I'm having unexpected reactions to every med that comes my way, and I've got to have something to put a wrapper on my BP. Again, the BP usually isn't an issue until 10-12 hours after Diovan dose taken.

 

Once you rule an adverse reaction to Diovan, I would try 5mg gabapentin and see how that goes.

 

As you take Diovan early in the day, I'd try 5mg gabapentin 6 hours later. Gabapentin has a short half-life of 5-7 hours. To get 24-hour coverage, which is what you'd want to stabilize blood pressure, I would take it every 8 hours (but try 5mg once a day first).

Dissolved 100mg of gabapentin in 10ml of spring water. Then I sucked up .5ml of the liquid into syringe and squirted into the back of my throat. Then I washed it down with water. Administered dose at 3pm. I sure hope this works. :)

 

-Rudy

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

Link to comment

Rudy,

I spent a some time reading about clonidine, because I was curious about some of the and symptoms you have been worried about recently.  I was able to find a few interesting things that might help you.  I found more than one or two anecdotal reports of these side effects you already suffer from: blurred vision, anxiety, insomnia and headaches.  I found one article written by a doctor who mentioned going to see a doc if you had blurred vision (I assume you mentioned this to your doc). 

 

It was a little hard for me to find a doctor recommended schedule for reducing dosage, but alas, I found a reputable article by a doctor who gave a tapering schedule: 10% reduction every 2-3 weeks.  I do not know if it is possible for you, but you may want to consult with a doctor for a different full time vs PRN (take as needed) BP med prior to tapering. It sounds like you have tried  other BP meds already, so this may be easier said than done. The biggest side effect from tapering being rebound hypertension, followed by anxiety (which can also increase your BP), so I looked into the recommended dosage of Diovan to see if this could possibly be increased, but you are on the highest recommended dose as it is, so no go there. They may be able to find another, though? I am very concerned about your BP upon commencing your taper if you do not have another med on board already. I know this is not great news, but I was concerned enough to put my medical research "cap" on, and spent some time looking around for good, solid information.  This is not medical advice, just the information I found online ( mentioned on more than one reputable site), that I hoped would help you in some way.

 

One thing I have learned about docs, is that that they seem to try to taper us off of meds much more quickly than our bodies can handle in many cases, especially if we have comorbidities (other health issues). You may or may not want to consider lengthening the withdrawal period, or lowering the percentage for each drop. 

 

Other side effects noted during tapering (other than the big 2 mentioned above): irritability (severe in some cases), restlessness, flu symptoms, worsening insomnia, headaches, vertigo, and unsteadiness, amongst others.

 

One very positive note I found, and I thought this was interesting, as you have included your meals in your information here, is that the doc who wrote the main article that I drew information from says that if you have a good, balanced diet, you will have a much easier time coming off of this medication. YAY!!

 

I truly hope that some of this will be helpful to you.

 

Good luck!

S.

Thank you so much, Skeeter. I've been to an opthomologist about my eyes. My corneas are being eroded from lack of tears. I no longer make them on my own. I no longer perspire either. My big issue with the clonidine at this point is that it further retards functions like mucosal moisture and digestion, ares where I'm already struggling mightily.

 

I've tried 13 different BP med from five different classes, all of which were a total bust. The only good news on this front is that my BP has shown an ability to stabilize more or less on its own. However, that's not going to happen when clonidine gets wired into my CNS. I've got to put it behind me ASAP. I'm going to try and do a 10% taper starting Wednesday night.

 

If that goes okay, I'm thinking I'll lower the dose every ten days. My thinking is that my exposure has been very brief, but gets longer and more entrenched by the day.

 

Thoughts?

 

-Rudy

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

Link to comment

Hey Ruby - I'm with Alto - 

 

The flox changed everything, and coming off Gabapentin has been known to cause withdrawal effects and Dysautonomia / Autonomic Dysregulation.

 

The diovan may not be your friend anymore.  It seems weird to go on Gabapentin for high blood pressure (It's a seizure med, not a BP med), but if your BP spikes are caused by withdrawal, it may be just what you need.  So I would agree with Alto, to take notes to see if diovan might be part of the problem.  Her instincts are really quite amazing.

Hi JanCarol,

 

Are you saying that I need gabapentin as a therapy?

 

 

 

Since this is so complex, it might behoove you to find a consulting pharmacist who may be able to find what it optimum for you.

 

We don't have much experience with blood pressure here, other than as a side effect of withdrawal.

 

You will have to try some things yourself, and the best thing to arm yourself with is a log of symptoms and doses.

I'm sorry you are going through this.

 

I'm willing to try alternatives. Part of what's daunting about this experience is that I don't always respond to symptom triggers immediately. Rather, I believe that it's sometimes a matter of hours or even days. That's definitely true of all that levaquin has done to me. I'm not ready to give up yet, but I've got to save my darn eyes. Too many floxies end up blind.

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts,

 

-Rudy

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

Link to comment
  • Administrator

Skeeter, thanks for that information. Can you find the link to the doctor's advice about tapering clonidine? That would be very helpful.

 

Rudy, your symptom pattern indicates something you take on a regular schedule is involved in your blood pressures spikes later in the day. Diovan has an elimination half-life of about 6 hours. It sounds like you are getting rebound blood pressure spikes as it wears off.

 

Whether the gabapentin will help this, I cannot say. Please postpone the gabapentin experiment until the Diovan issue is resolved. (How did you do with that one dose of gabapentin?)

 

How do you take the Diovan in the morning? Do you take more than one tablet?

 

The autonomic nervous system control perspiration and eye moisture. Psychiatric drugs and Diovan, and withdrawal from them, all affect your autonomic nervous system functioning.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

Link to comment

Rudy, your symptom pattern indicates something you take on a regular schedule is involved in your blood pressures spikes later in the day. Diovan has an elimination half-life of about 6 hours. It sounds like you are getting rebound blood pressure spikes as it wears off.

You're losing me here. Diovan is a once a day BP med with 24-hour coverage. Could you have intended to write clonidine instead? I take the tablet with water on an empty stomach. I take it daily between 7 and 8 am. Taking it w/o food is supposed to help increase the serum leveI believe.

 

Whether the gabapentin will help this, I cannot say. Please postpone the gabapentin experiment until the Diovan issue is resolved. (How did you do with that one dose of gabapentin?)

Little queasy so far, but that's not unusual this time of day. Postpone gabapentin experiment...do you mean hold off on a second dose of 5mg later tonight?

 

The autonomic nervous system control perspiration and eye moisture. Psychiatric drugs and Diovan, and withdrawal from them, all affect your autonomic nervous system functioning.

I've actually stopped Diovan for other meds that are supposedly more effective. I also tried combinations of BP meds. I reinstated the Diovan after those debacles. I can stop the Diovan again tomorrow, but I may have to increase the dose of clonidine!

 

BTW, levaquin poisoning is infamous for deregulating critical body functions like glucose, thyroid and BP. I'm just trying to adjust. The best tool that I've found is magnesium.

 

-Rudy

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

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Post 5mg Gabapentin Update:

 

5:45 - Very restless night. Sleep worse, little agitated and hot feeling. Remember, I don't sweat any more, but I feel like I should be sweaty, kinda like withdrawal. Gabapentin perhaps?

 

-Rudy

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

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  • Moderator Emeritus

hey RudyMoon - 

 

 

Are you saying that I need gabapentin as a therapy?

 

No.  I think very few of these drugs are actually therapeutic though some may have helpful effects.

 

The reason I agreed with considering a reinstatement of gabapentin, is that you may be in withdrawal from it, and it may be making your symptoms work.

 

Here is how psych drug withdrawal works:

Intro to Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome

Healing from Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery (by Toxic Antidepressants)

 

When in withdrawal, the only way to stop withdrawals is by reinstating a small amount of the drug you are in withdrawal from.

 

BUT - I agree with Alto - if we can find another way (and I'm less wise than she in the way of BP drugs) - it's better to reduce drugs, and see if we get good effect from that.

 

AND - it sounds like you reinstated a small amount of Gabapentin.  How is that going?  If, indeed, your dysautonomia is contributed to by gabapentin withdrawal, you should notice a difference. 

 

Keep your logs and notes, as this will bear watching closely.  I would only start with the one dose per day, just to make sure you don't have a reaction.  Especially post flox, as you could react to anything, now.

"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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hey RudyMoon -

 

AND - it sounds like you reinstated a small amount of Gabapentin.  How is that going?  If, indeed, your dysautonomia is contributed to by gabapentin withdrawal, you should notice a difference. 

 

Keep your logs and notes, as this will bear watching closely.  I would only start with the one dose per day, just to make sure you don't have a reaction.  Especially post flox, as you could react to anything, now.

 

Hi JanCarol, :)

 

Here's my post from 5:59am:

 

 

Post 5mg Gabapentin Update:

 

5:45 - Very restless night. Sleep worse, little agitated and hot feeling. Remember, I don't sweat any more, but I feel like I should be sweaty, kinda like withdrawal. Gabapentin perhaps?

 

-Rudy

 

I didn't take the dose because it appeared from an advisory that I should postpone it. Haven't taken a 5mg dose this morning, and I'm unsure as to how I should proceed. The results cited in my quote directly above have only muddied the water for me.

 

-Rudy

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

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  • Administrator

Please do NOT stop taking Diovan!
 
It's important to keep your drug intake as regular as possible, and to keep notes about your drug schedule and symptoms.
 
See https://www.drugs.com/pro/diovan.htm
 

Pharmacokinetics
Valsartan peak plasma concentration is reached 2 to 4 hours after dosing. Valsartan shows bi-exponential decay kinetics following intravenous administration, with an average elimination half-life of about 6 hours. Absolute bioavailability for the capsule formulation is about 25% (range 10%-35%). Food decreases the exposure (as measured by AUC) to valsartan by about 40% and peak plasma concentration (Cmax) by about 50%. AUC and Cmax values of valsartan increase approximately linearly with increasing dose over the clinical dosing range. Valsartan does not accumulate appreciably in plasma following repeated administration.
....
Pharmacodynamics and Clinical Effects

Valsartan inhibits the pressor effect of angiotensin II infusions. An oral dose of 80 mg inhibits the pressor effect by about 80% at peak with approximately 30% inhibition persisting for 24 hours. No information on the effect of larger doses is available....
....
In most patients, after administration of a single oral dose, onset of antihypertensive activity occurs at approximately 2 hours, and maximum reduction of blood pressure is achieved within 6 hours. The antihypertensive effect persists for 24 hours after dosing, but there is a decrease from peak effect at lower doses (40 mg) presumably reflecting loss of inhibition of angiotensin II. At higher doses, however (160 mg), there is little difference in peak and trough effect. During repeated dosing, the reduction in blood pressure with any dose is substantially present within 2 weeks, and maximal reduction is generally attained after 4 weeks. In long-term follow-up studies (without placebo control), the effect of valsartan appeared to be maintained for up to two years....

 
Manufacturer's insert https://www.pharma.us.novartis.com/sites/www.pharma.us.novartis.com/files/diovan.pdf
 
Apparently valsartan was initially dosed twice a day until studies were done showing comparable results with once-a-day dosing, such as:
 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2922305/
Comparison of once-daily versus twice-daily dosing of valsartan in patients with chronic stable heart failure

Conclusion:
Valsartan administered qd has a similar safety and tolerability profile with comparable 24-hour RAAS blockade, as assessed by increases in PRA, as bid dosing in patients with moderate to severe (NYHA class II–III) heart failure.


So for a while, people were taking valsartan twice a day (probably due to its short half-life). I think it's possible you now feel the trough at about 6 hours.

 

From the Mayo Clinic http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/valsartan-oral-route/proper-use/drg-20067355

 

The dose of this medicine will be different for different patients....Also, the number of doses you take each day, the time allowed between doses, and the length of time you take the medicine depend on the medical problem for which you are using the medicine.

 

I suggest you discuss split dosing of valsartan with your doctor. It doesn't make sense to add clonidine if you're already taking a full dose of valsartan.

 

The safest way to split the dosage is to carefully move 1/2 (160mg) of your usual dose an hour or so later each day until you are taking them 12 hours apart. Be sure to track your symptoms. If this guess is correct, blood pressure spikes in the later part of the day should lessen.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Please do NOT stop taking Diovan!

 

It's important to keep your drug intake as regular as possible, and to keep notes about your drug schedule and symptoms.

 

Will do.

 

Apparently valsartan was initially dosed twice a day until studies were done showing comparable results with once-a-day dosing.

 

I suggest you discuss split dosing of valsartan with your doctor. It doesn't make sense to add clonidine if you're already taking a full dose of valsartan.

 

The safest way to split the dosage is to carefully move 1/2 (160mg) of your usual dose an hour or so later each day until you are taking them 12 hours apart. Be sure to track your symptoms. If this guess is correct, blood pressure spikes in the later part of the day should lessen.

Seeing internist tomorrow. I doubt that he will object. Nothing that he prescribed/suggested got us anywhere.

 

Question: Are we on hold with the 5mg gabapentin dosages?

 

BP has been very stable. I need to note that I can't take the .1mg clonidine unless it's somewhat elevated. Hypotension has its own set of risks.

 

-Rudy

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Rudy,

Hopefully you will see this before you see your internist tomorrow. I am very glad you are educated about the side effects of your meds, knowing the cause of your severe dry eyes is SO important in this case. Does your ophthalmologist have you one some sort of eye drop, even if it is just regular saline? You know they are one of your most important assets, secondary, of course o your cardiovascular system.

 

The information I found, if you would like to read it for yourself comes from a study from the national Institutes od Health (the link is about 1/2 way down the page, if you want to read the abstract on the study (a synopsis of what the study found), or the PDF version, which is good if your medical vocabulary is strong enough to understand. My intention is to read the study so I can share any more helpful information.

 

I think you should share your intention to taper your clonidine with your doctor- PERIOD. He may be able to add some helpful information. Losing your eyesight, IMHO, is a good reason for TRYING to come off slowly. Now here, in SA's, they suggest cutting down 10% of your previous dose each time, not a straight 10% every 10 days (or as the study suggests, every 1-2 weeks). This is something to discuss with the doctor for sure, as I do not know how fast your eyesight is failing.

 

I was not able to find the original article I referred to, but this one has the exact same information (my computer crashed and I had to set my computer back to an earlier version from my backup drive, so I lost the link ad all other info I had saved). The information, at any rate, is directly from the medical study (performed by doctors), so it appears to be solid information (something I will make double sure of when I read the study).

 

The comments at the bottom are interesting to say the least. It talks about people's personal issues with the med.

 

Link to the article: http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2014/05/22/clonidine-withdrawal-symptoms-high-blood-pressure-increased-heart-rate/

 

Link to the study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1429594/

The study itself is old, circa 1979, so you will want to make sure there is not more current information. I spent hours looking for other information looking for Taper information on this subject, and was able to find NOTHING else.. I am starting to read this information right now, and will update you if I find anything else of interest.

 

You are very fortunate to have people doing such extensive medical research on your behalf (I am not speaking about me, I am speaking of Altostrata and JanCarol, both moderators, and both very wise and so very kind to have spent so much time doing research on your behalf!!! You have a "all star" crew with those two, for sure (not to mention anyone else that may have spoken up)!!

 

Good luck! Please let us know what the doctor says!! I assume he will be on your side, as I cannot imagine him wanting you to lose your sight, as long as you come off of your med safely without hypertensive crises. If it takes more time, please do not force it.

S.

Current meds: Lexapro 20mg, Valium 6.25mg
Current status: September 2018 forced to go down to 10mg of Valium/Diazepam from around 15mg, with the plan to have me totally of in 2 more months. I was not given a chance to give input at tapering at this speed, please go much, much slower. Luckily I found a new doctor, but was thrown off course by my rapid taper, as of 2/19 am down to 6.25mg, and am stable. Will update with dates of taper ASAP.
Read my history here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/12819-skeeters-journey/

   
I am NOT a doctor. My opinions are just that- MY opinions, based on my personal experiences and research, but your experience and reactions may differ greatly, we are all different! I maintain that a doctor educated in withdrawal is the best place to get info or to get the "go ahead" before changing your medications in any way!

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Rudy,

I have the link to an article that has the information I referred you to, plus the study that the information came form, and will provide these to you below.  It took me hours to find ANY information on tapering off of Clonidine that came from a reputable source.  The article that I have linked you to came fro Men's Health, but as you can see by the link listed about half-way through the article, the information comes from a study from a very reputable source (Nat'l Institutes of Health, for one).  The age of the article is concerning, 1979, but I am also looking for more current information for you by reading more current studies.

 

One thing that every article I have read by every doctor has said is that you need to work with your doctor on this clonidine taper- this med is far ore dangerous than benzo's to come off of due to the systemic effects of this medication in particular.  Please tell your internist of your intention to taper.  I cannot see him having an issue with it as long as you do not go into a hypertensive crises during the taper.  Now the article does not say which kind of 10% taper to do (10% of total amount per step, or the 10% taper suggested on SA's, which has you reducing 10% off of the last dose you were most recently taking, Link: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1024-why-taper-by-10-of-my-dosage/ ) and it also says to go down by 10% every 1-2 weeks vs the 10 days you would like to try. It is good to have a plan, but please know that the plan has to be flexible, I do not want to see your body get worse from the antibiotic as a result of going too fast!!  Watch you BP and heart rate, if you need to stretch it out to 2 weeks- OR  per step, please do so if you need.  The last thing you need is to end up sicker and slowing your progress overall by forcing it and going too fast. I have seen others on this forum and other forums who end up taking much longer overall because they were given bad advice or tried to force the taper too quickly because they did not know this, and with your eyes you cannot take that chance of taking longer overall, and losing your sight, or hurting your cardiovascular system as a result! Your health comes first.

 

You have had an "all star" cast of moderators helping you with this, spending hours of their time doing medical research on your behalf.  I want to thank moderators JanCarol and Altostrata for their amazing assistance (and anyone else who assisted).  It shows their true dedication.  It is hard to find people who will give up this amount of time to help someone so amazingly selflessly!

 

Link to article: http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2014/05/22/clonidine-withdrawal-symptoms-high-blood-pressure-increased-heart-rate/

Link to study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1429594/xxxxxxxxxx

 

Best of luck to you at the doc's office, please update us as to how it went!

S

Current meds: Lexapro 20mg, Valium 6.25mg
Current status: September 2018 forced to go down to 10mg of Valium/Diazepam from around 15mg, with the plan to have me totally of in 2 more months. I was not given a chance to give input at tapering at this speed, please go much, much slower. Luckily I found a new doctor, but was thrown off course by my rapid taper, as of 2/19 am down to 6.25mg, and am stable. Will update with dates of taper ASAP.
Read my history here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/12819-skeeters-journey/

   
I am NOT a doctor. My opinions are just that- MY opinions, based on my personal experiences and research, but your experience and reactions may differ greatly, we are all different! I maintain that a doctor educated in withdrawal is the best place to get info or to get the "go ahead" before changing your medications in any way!

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  • Administrator

If Rudy is taking clonidine occasionally, tapering it is not that much of an issue.

 

Rudy, if your blood pressure has been stable for the last 48 hours, perhaps that rough patch is over.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Thank you, Skeeter. The articles that you linked us to are interesting and informative. The text certainly suggests that I ought to be able to execute the taper off clonidine in a timely manner. In my favor appears to be the fact that I've been taking a low daily dose, .1mg, for a relatively short period, less than 7 weeks, INCLUDING the 16 day hiatus when I took the Gabapentin daily and before the Gabapentin withdrawal began. The difficult outstanding issue is the general CNS instability which impacts everything else. I'm not completely sure where I am in that regard, but feel compelled to move forward with the taper ASAP for the sake of my eyes. Thank you, again, for your help with all this. It is most genuinely appreciated!

 

-Rudy

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

Link to comment

If Rudy is taking clonidine occasionally, tapering it is not that much of an issue.

 

Rudy, if your blood pressure has been stable for the last 48 hours, perhaps that rough patch is over.

Alto, I'm still feeling a little "wired" and I'm wondering if it's from the single, .5mg dose of Gabapentin that I took Sunday at 3pm.

 

I'm a bit jittery, feel flushed in the face, and sort of "catnapped" (again) for four hours or so last night.

 

Could I be experiencing a bit of a "mini-withdrawal" from that single dose?

 

A question from my messages above that you may have missed:

 

Are we abandoning the attempt to stabiillize my CNS with low-dose (15mg/day) Gabapentin?

 

And a second question...

 

Should I move forward with the split-dosing of the 320mg Diovan that I take for hypertension?

 

I'm particularly interested in your response to the first question as the CNS issue has certainly demonstrated a profound impact on my BP in the past.

 

Because of that, I'll hold off on the clonidine taper until we can clarify the status of the gabapentin effort to stabilize my CNS.

 

As always, thanks for all your help,

 

-Rudy

Edited by scallywag
added emphasis for questions

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Rudy,

Alto brought up an EXCELLENT point in regards to how long you have been taking this med!

 

I had previously put a rough timeline of your recent Clonidine usage together from the great timeline you provided here, and you helped me with the rest with your statement of: "less than 7 weeks". I knew you have been taking it almost daily for about 6 weeks (except for the 12 day hiatus when you were on gabapentin, and I was not sure for about the last week). I will attempt to find how long it takes the body to build up a tolerance to this med, if at all possible.

 

Does your ophthalmologist have you taking saline drops (or something else) to help your eyes?

 

On behalf of everyone who has assisted you on this matter, you are very welcome. Amazing people here!!!

Skeeter

Current meds: Lexapro 20mg, Valium 6.25mg
Current status: September 2018 forced to go down to 10mg of Valium/Diazepam from around 15mg, with the plan to have me totally of in 2 more months. I was not given a chance to give input at tapering at this speed, please go much, much slower. Luckily I found a new doctor, but was thrown off course by my rapid taper, as of 2/19 am down to 6.25mg, and am stable. Will update with dates of taper ASAP.
Read my history here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/12819-skeeters-journey/

   
I am NOT a doctor. My opinions are just that- MY opinions, based on my personal experiences and research, but your experience and reactions may differ greatly, we are all different! I maintain that a doctor educated in withdrawal is the best place to get info or to get the "go ahead" before changing your medications in any way!

Link to comment

Rudy,

Alto brought up an EXCELLENT point in regards to how long you have been taking this med!

 

I had previously put a rough timeline of your recent Clonidine usage together from the great timeline you provided here, and you helped me with the rest with your statement of: "less than 7 weeks". I knew you have been taking it almost daily for about 6 weeks (except for the 12 day hiatus when you were on gabapentin, and I was not sure for about the last week). I will attempt to find how long it takes the body to build up a tolerance to this med, if at all possible.

 

Does your ophthalmologist have you taking saline drops (or something else) to help your eyes?

 

On behalf of everyone who has assisted you on this matter, you are very welcome. Amazing people here!!!

Skeeter

 

Hi Skeeter,

 

On the length of my exposure to clonidine, the one stipulation that I'd add is that my CNS appears to be pretty raw at this point. Because of that, it's probably a lot easier for me to become dependent on ANYTHING than other folks might be. It's also worth noting that I have weird reactions to just about any prescription med that I'm given. I simply don't react the ways that doctors expect.

 

On the saline drops, definitely. I use something called "Refresh Plus." They are the mildest thing that I could find. ANYTHING with preservatives in it causes me fits. I've tried perhaps six other such eye-drops and at least two of them actually made my eyes worse.

 

And I agree that y'all are an amazing lot. To an extent, you've become my eyes. Hopefully, I won't lean on you guys like this forever. :)

 

-Rudy

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

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  • Administrator

Correct, Rudy, blood pressure is regulated by the autonomic nervous system. When we speak of "CNS destabilization," we're mostly talking about the autonomic nervous system. From there, signals go out to the hormonal systems, adrenals, thyroid, etc.

 

No, we are not abandoning the idea that you might have withdrawal symptoms from gabapentin that might be reduced with a reinstatement of that drug, but we need to identify and address possible rebound from Diovan first. Adjusting more than one drug at a time brings in a lot of confounding factors that can confuse the issue.

 

It is possible your nervous system became hypersensitive to small variations in the level of Diovan in your bloodstream as it wears off every day -- that's where your blood pressure spikes come from -- and now (hopefully), it's adjusted back to its prior tolerance of Diovan variations. The nervous system is constantly making such adjustments, even after being upset by drugs, or after a single dose of gabapentin, as you've just experienced.

 

If the blood pressure spikes are resolved, what symptoms do you have that reinstatement of gabapentin might address?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

Link to comment

Correct, Rudy, blood pressure is regulated by the autonomic nervous system. When we speak of "CNS destabilization," we're mostly talking about the autonomic nervous system. From there, signals go out to the hormonal systems, adrenals, thyroid, etc.

 

No, we are not abandoning the idea that you might have withdrawal symptoms from gabapentin that might be reduced with a reinstatement of that drug, but we need to identify and address possible rebound from Diovan first. Adjusting more than one drug at a time brings in a lot of confounding factors that can confuse the issue.

 

It is possible your nervous system became hypersensitive to small variations in the level of Diovan in your bloodstream as it wears off every day -- that's where your blood pressure spikes come from -- and now (hopefully), it's adjusted back to its prior tolerance of Diovan variations. The nervous system is constantly making such adjustments, even after being upset by drugs, or after a single dose of gabapentin, as you've just experienced.

 

If the blood pressure spikes are resolved, what symptoms do you have that reinstatement of gabapentin might address?

Right now, I just want the BP to lay down and stay down. Because of the timing, it's very disruptive to sleep/rest. Clonidine knocks me out...for three hours. Then, I'm often up until daylight. And beneath the surface, it's wrecking my eyes.

 

Thanks, and I'll keep you posted on my progress.

 

-Rudy

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

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  • Moderator Emeritus

So Rudy - did you suggest to your internist about gradually moving half your dose of Diovan, with the goal of 180 mg 12 hours apart?

 

If so, what did he say?  Was he amenable to this suggestion?

 

I agree, if we can get your BP to settle, then, maybe you won't need the clonidine or the gabapentin.  The clonidine may be only there because of Diovan interdose BP spikes.  And the spikes maybe only started happening with the gabapentin, but that doesn't necessarily mean you need it to get out of this.

 

Slow and steady, make tiny changes, a little at a time.

 

What form of Magnesium do you take?  (do I remember citrate?  if so, then good, carry on!)  And have you ever taken Omega-3 fish oil  ?  It may be a good support for you once we get you steady again.

"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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Rudy,
For whenever you choose to taper...

Finally found out just how brief of a time taking clonidine at any dose should result in a doctor supervised taper: 5 days!

Source: Healthtap, https://www.healthtap.com/user_questions/623568

Best of luck to you!
S

Current meds: Lexapro 20mg, Valium 6.25mg
Current status: September 2018 forced to go down to 10mg of Valium/Diazepam from around 15mg, with the plan to have me totally of in 2 more months. I was not given a chance to give input at tapering at this speed, please go much, much slower. Luckily I found a new doctor, but was thrown off course by my rapid taper, as of 2/19 am down to 6.25mg, and am stable. Will update with dates of taper ASAP.
Read my history here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/12819-skeeters-journey/

   
I am NOT a doctor. My opinions are just that- MY opinions, based on my personal experiences and research, but your experience and reactions may differ greatly, we are all different! I maintain that a doctor educated in withdrawal is the best place to get info or to get the "go ahead" before changing your medications in any way!

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We would advise a longer taper of clonidine. The danger is rebound hypertension. However, there's Diovan on board. I worry about the addition of clonidine to that.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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So Rudy - did you suggest to your internist about gradually moving half your dose of Diovan, with the goal of 180 mg 12 hours apart?

 

If so, what did he say?  Was he amenable to this suggestion?

 

I agree, if we can get your BP to settle, then, maybe you won't need the clonidine or the gabapentin.  The clonidine may be only there because of Diovan interdose BP spikes.  And the spikes maybe only started happening with the gabapentin, but that doesn't necessarily mean you need it to get out of this.

 

Slow and steady, make tiny changes, a little at a time.

 

What form of Magnesium do you take?  (do I remember citrate?  if so, then good, carry on!)  And have you ever taken Omega-3 fish oil  ?  It may be a good support for you once we get you steady again.

 

The doc didn't like the idea. He suggested that I could eliminate .1mg clonidine cold turkey (because of the low dose and short duration of use).

 

He was particularly dismissive of cutting the tablets with water, saying that it was impossible to do that with any precision or accuracy.

 

He also said that it was impossible for me to have gotten dependent on Gabapentin in so short a time or to have experienced withdrawal from it. Basically, he indicated that I was blowing everything out of proportion and making a bad situation, the floxing, worse.

 

He also indicated that I should take beta-blocker as a patch while my BP adjusted. I reminded him that my pulse had gone to 37 at one point when I was taking propranolol. It was a pretty tense visit, and I'm not sure that I'm going back. Seems like a waste of time. I'll guarantee he'd be looking for an alternative to clonidine were it his eyes that were failing.

 

On the magnesium, I'm taking Doctor's best chelated 100mg tablets. I take them with some form of vitamin d3 each time, either a partial MV or a dedicated d3 supplement. The D3 was suggested by my nutritionist. Clearly, I'm having more luck with nutritionists than doctors!

 

I've begun moving to a twice a daily dose of Diovan, BTW. It will take several days, but I'll eventually have it at 8am and 8pm.

 

-Rudy

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

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Rudy,

For whenever you choose to taper...

 

Finally found out just how brief of a time taking clonidine at any dose should result in a doctor supervised taper: 5 days!

 

Source: Healthtap, https://www.healthtap.com/user_questions/623568

 

Best of luck to you!

S

 

I'm onboard with the taper, but that piece is awfully vague. It mentions tapering over "several days." That doesn't tell us much.

 

-Rudy

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

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We would advise a longer taper of clonidine. The danger is rebound hypertension. However, there's Diovan on board. I worry about the addition of clonidine to that.

 

Okay, but the prescribing doc is no help at this point. Again, he focused on the brief exposure rather than my reaction to all this stuff. It hasn't sunk in with him that my CNS is screwed up and that I don't react to meds the way the typical patient does. He was offering me benzos and/or SSRI for both sleep and anxiety yesterday. Benzos and SSRI frequently cause seizures in people who have been floxed. I've read that repeatedly. Some of us can take them, but many it just makes MUCH worse. I just kept shaking my head and saying no, I have to taper and do it right. Like I told JanCarol, I may not go back to his office ever. It was that frustrating and unproductive.

 

Alto, how long do you think that I need to wait between reductions in the clonidine while tapering?

 

-Rudy

Discontinued Drugs:

Budweiser Light 30+ Years - CT 11/14/15

Ativan 1.5 mg 3 Weeks - Rapid Taper completed 12/1/15

Propranolol 120mg 2 months - CT 1/25/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime 2.5 months - 100mg per-week taper completed 4/16

Levaquin 750mg/daily - Ceased after 6 doses on signs of poisoning 4/18/16

Gabapentin 100mg x 3 @ bedtime use intermittant starting 8/4/16 - daily from 8/21 - CT on doctors order 9/1/16

Briefly tried Unisom and Benadryl as a sleep aid (under 5 minimal doses combined)

 

Currently on a MV, Magnesium, CoQ10, Vitamin E, Vitamin D3, Curcumin, and Krill Oil for Levaquin poisoning

Diovan 320mg daily

Clonidine .1mg as needed for BP spikes (frequently)

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We would advise a longer taper of clonidine. The danger is rebound hypertension. However, there's Diovan on board. I worry about the addition of clonidine to that.

Agreed 100%,  The pertinent part of the conversation was the part about taking clonidine for only 5 days would result in a taper, as the conversation here had led me to wonder just how long does one have to be on clonidine before tapering needed to be initiated, because the information was not easily found on my part.

 

To be clear: here is the pertinent conversation;

Question by patient:  "Been on clonidine for 5 days to help off morphine. Do I wean off clonidine or just stop?

Answer by Dr. Black: "In brief: Wean. Stopping Clonidine abruptly can result in "rebound hypertension" which means blood pressure can shoot up very high."

 

Rudy, please ignore the rest of the content having to do with the taper of a few days, that only applies to a person having taken clonidine for less than one week.

 

HUGE thanks to Altostrata for catching this.

 

Skeeter

Current meds: Lexapro 20mg, Valium 6.25mg
Current status: September 2018 forced to go down to 10mg of Valium/Diazepam from around 15mg, with the plan to have me totally of in 2 more months. I was not given a chance to give input at tapering at this speed, please go much, much slower. Luckily I found a new doctor, but was thrown off course by my rapid taper, as of 2/19 am down to 6.25mg, and am stable. Will update with dates of taper ASAP.
Read my history here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/12819-skeeters-journey/

   
I am NOT a doctor. My opinions are just that- MY opinions, based on my personal experiences and research, but your experience and reactions may differ greatly, we are all different! I maintain that a doctor educated in withdrawal is the best place to get info or to get the "go ahead" before changing your medications in any way!

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Oh Rudy, I'm sorry!

 

The doc didn't like the idea. He suggested that I could eliminate .1mg clonidine cold turkey (because of the low dose and short duration of use).

 

He was particularly dismissive of cutting the tablets with water, saying that it was impossible to do that with any precision or accuracy.

 

He also said that it was impossible for me to have gotten dependent on Gabapentin in so short a time or to have experienced withdrawal from it. Basically, he indicated that I was blowing everything out of proportion and making a bad situation, the floxing, worse.

 

This does not sound like a good partner in your health.  He is lacking listening skills and adaptability.

 

Personally, I think that Alto's idea of splitting the Diovan, gradually moving the doses to 12 hours apart - was nothing short of brilliant!

 

And so conservative - that a good doctor who listens might be able to say, "Hmmm.  Interesting thought, let's try it!"

 

Instead of sending you down the dangerous path of CTing clonadine at a time when you are having BP spikes!  I'm sorry it worked out that way.  BP is tricky stuff, and it would be good to have a doc on board, and it's scary for us here, without that safety net.  We don't have a clinic, or access to other drugs which might help in the interim.

 

Gabapentin can get its "hooks" in with as short an exposure as 3 weeks.  We have had some people here react to ONE DOSE.  That was an SSRI, but still.  ONE DOSE = a year or more of withdrawal symptoms.

 

And doesn't believe in the accuracy of our methods?  We have people on a fraction of a mg, using liquid tapers in here!  It's just a matter of the right tools!  Sigh.  It's such an uphill battle sometimes, and I'm sorry you got caught in it.

 

We could've prepared you better, there are discussions about How do you talk to a doctor about tapering and withdrawal? and What Should I Expect From My Doctor About Withdrawal Symptoms?

 

Reading there, you will see that your doctor's response was right in the middle of the lane.

 

The Doc's Best Magnesium is one of the best available.  However, you might track the D3 to see if you have any symptoms in relation to taking it.  Some people react to D3, even when they are deeply deficient in it.  It is awesome for mood control, but can be overstimulating to someone in withdrawal.  Same as B-vitamins (especially a complex, do not take any compound herbal or vitamin mixtures - you don't know what you are reacting to.  This is a lab experiment, you want to change only one variable at a time!)

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/39-vitamin-d3-cholecalciferol-or-calcitriol/

 

My favourite source of D is sun-walks.  I take just 10 minutes a day.  For some people that is enough to get them through a D-deficiency until they are stabilised and out of the woods form withdrawal, and can address it later.

 

 

 

I've begun moving to a twice a daily dose of Diovan, BTW. It will take several days, but I'll eventually have it at 8am and 8pm.

 

How is that going?  It's too soon to tell if we are going to fill the interdose hole that Alto & I think you've been having from the Diovan, but I'm wondering if maybe you are getting a little more time of relief?  

 

What time are you taking your 2nd dose now?  How often are you moving the dose?

 

 

 

Alto, how long do you think that I need to wait between reductions in the clonidine while tapering?

 

I'm not Alto, but I wouldn't touch the clonidine until you have your diovan split better.  Keep monitoring your BP, and see how badly you need the clonidine.  You may find that when the diovan is at 8 am and 6 pm, that you are no longer having breakthrough BP spikes in the evening.  Let's see what happens, how you respond, before tapering anything.

 

Hopefully this shift to 2x daily dosing may reduce the need for clonidine, then you can taper safely.

 

Again, I'm in awe of Altostrata's insight into the diovan, how it used to be used, and how the floxing may have affected how it is metabolized in your system.  I think her suggestion of splitting the dose is absolutely brilliant!

 

How have you been feeling?  How has the split dose been going?

"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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Rudy,

Have not seen you pop up in a while.  How are you doing?

 

I hope things are getting better for you!!

S

Current meds: Lexapro 20mg, Valium 6.25mg
Current status: September 2018 forced to go down to 10mg of Valium/Diazepam from around 15mg, with the plan to have me totally of in 2 more months. I was not given a chance to give input at tapering at this speed, please go much, much slower. Luckily I found a new doctor, but was thrown off course by my rapid taper, as of 2/19 am down to 6.25mg, and am stable. Will update with dates of taper ASAP.
Read my history here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/12819-skeeters-journey/

   
I am NOT a doctor. My opinions are just that- MY opinions, based on my personal experiences and research, but your experience and reactions may differ greatly, we are all different! I maintain that a doctor educated in withdrawal is the best place to get info or to get the "go ahead" before changing your medications in any way!

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