Jump to content
Shanti

Ego Reality

Recommended Posts

Shanti

Ego death and reality

To be completely you means being alone. When this is experienced, it will bring very deep grief and sadness. You have to learn to say good-bye to everything you have loved -- not just your Mommy and Daddy, your boyfriend and your cat, but to your feelings, your mind, your ideas. You are in love with all of these. Letting go of them will feel like a great loss, even a death. It is not you who dies. What dies is everyone else. In the experience of ego death, you don't feel you're dying; you feel everybody else is dead. You feel you're all alone, totally alone. You have lost a boundary which was constructed from past experiences. But this boundary never really existed! It was just a belief. When you experience reality as it is, there is no sense of boundaries or of being separate, of inside or outside. (Diamond Heart Book 2, pg 169)

Ego death and unity

Experiencing this unity reveals to us that life is beautiful. Prior to this, when you experience yourself moving from the state of the physical or of the personality to the state of the essential or of the boundless dimensions, there is the feeling that life is a problem. The best option seems to be to get away from life, and one may long to disappear or die. From the perspective of unity, there is no such thing as dying, nor of being reborn. There is no such thing as ego death, and no such thing as enlightenment either, since you are already the unity. This is the state of affairs all the time and always -- before you develop an ego, when it is dissolving, and after you are dissolved. All those parts are the unity itself, and so you are not going anywhere. (Facets of Unity, pg 88)

 

I have considered the idea that the drug Paxil does something to break the boundaries of ego reality to the extent that we feel nothing is real; depersonalization. I think the problem is that it is too much, too harsh of an experience when we aren't ready for such an event. This can go along with the other topic about Kundalini. Maybe it's that our physical brains and nervous systems aren't a high enough vibration to withstand the energy as well, and so we have the zaps and such. Or, maybe we are still basing our identity a little too much from the ego self rather than our true self, so there isn't a firm grip of who we are, our identity, when that boundary falls and we're stuck kind of in between identities. Not fully grounded in either one. We lose knowing who we are and why we're here.

 

I've been spiritual and working on my spiritual growth for many years. I think it's just something that might not be meant to be experienced in this realm unless we've reached full enlightenment, or at least a very high attainment. I feel there is so much more to understand about this and ponder it often, it's a bit beyond my grasp but it's there in my mind as something to explore.

Share this post


Link to post
summer

Very interesting thread, Shanti.

 

I know you'll be making a welcome contribution here!

Share this post


Link to post
Shanti

Ego death and reality

To be completely you means being alone. When this is experienced, it will bring very deep grief and sadness. You have to learn to say good-bye to everything you have loved -- not just your Mommy and Daddy, your boyfriend and your cat, but to your feelings, your mind, your ideas. You are in love with all of these. Letting go of them will feel like a great loss, even a death. It is not you who dies. What dies is everyone else. In the experience of ego death, you don't feel you're dying; you feel everybody else is dead. You feel you're all alone, totally alone. You have lost a boundary which was constructed from past experiences. But this boundary never really existed! It was just a belief. When you experience reality as it is, there is no sense of boundaries or of being separate, of inside or outside. (Diamond Heart Book 2, pg 169)

Ego death and unity

Experiencing this unity reveals to us that life is beautiful. Prior to this, when you experience yourself moving from the state of the physical or of the personality to the state of the essential or of the boundless dimensions, there is the feeling that life is a problem. The best option seems to be to get away from life, and one may long to disappear or die. From the perspective of unity, there is no such thing as dying, nor of being reborn. There is no such thing as ego death, and no such thing as enlightenment either, since you are already the unity. This is the state of affairs all the time and always -- before you develop an ego, when it is dissolving, and after you are dissolved. All those parts are the unity itself, and so you are not going anywhere. (Facets of Unity, pg 88)

 

I have considered the idea that the drug Paxil does something to break the boundaries of ego reality to the extent that we feel nothing is real; depersonalization. I think the problem is that it is too much, too harsh of an experience when we aren't ready for such an event. This can go along with the other topic about Kundalini. Maybe it's that our physical brains and nervous systems aren't a high enough vibration to withstand the energy as well, and so we have the zaps and such. Or, maybe we are still basing our identity a little too much from the ego self rather than our true self, so there isn't a firm grip of who we are, our identity, when that boundary falls and we're stuck kind of in between identities. Not fully grounded in either one. We lose knowing who we are and why we're here.

 

I've been spiritual and working on my spiritual growth for many years. I think it's just something that might not be meant to be experienced in this realm unless we've reached full enlightenment, or at least a very high attainment. I feel there is so much more to understand about this and ponder it often, it's a bit beyond my grasp but it's there in my mind as something to explore.

 

Thank you Summer! I was a little leary posting my ideas. They weren't received well at another forum. All the posts that I put my heart into were deleted and I was barred. I'm really glad to be here and love the posts I've seen. Very helpful!

Share this post


Link to post
summer

Gee... I wonder what Forum you were on? hahahaha

Share this post


Link to post
Barbarannamated

Yes, very interesting. There is so much disconnectedness in our connected world. Hoping that makes sense to someone.

Share this post


Link to post
Shanti

lol @ Summer :)

 

Yes Barbara, I totally know what you mean.

 

This concept of the ego makes some sense in some kind of connection with the withdrawals. I can't quite grasp it or try to explain it, but I know it's there. It's something to meditate on when I want to get my mind off other things.

Share this post


Link to post
Roads

That reminds me of Krishnamurti (very intersting reading, I recommend). Basically, he says that our ego divert us from the reality, prevent us from having relations, and take love away from us. It sounds threadbare and flat, but his theory is far more radical and embracing than that ( I can't but betray and diminish his thinking, just read it).

It comes down to the conclusion that the death of the ego (actually, he talks about the end of a center-outskirt pattern and dynamism), the comprehensive death of the ego is the only way to happiness and love (he has very interesting conception of love and of the relations between the human beings).

Withdrawal looks so much like a kind of sacrifice of the ego. When in withdrawal, you are dispossessed of everything, even of yourself. You are nothing at all. There isn't anything left you can cling onto so as to feed the illusion of the ego. You are forced to live without ego. It is learning a new way of life. Just like you are peeled.

And the death of the ego is the key to happiness and true love, and to vision. According to Krishnmurti, one should symbolically die every day, so as to be able to truly live the day after. Death here means renewal of the spirit by the abandon of experiences and prejudices.

Share this post


Link to post
Altostrata

Excellent point, Roads. The Buddhist concepts of letting go of control, resignation, or submission are similar.

 

Or, from the Christian-influenced 12-step program, trusting your future to God.

Share this post


Link to post
Shanti

Very good point! Here's a good story of Jill, a Brain Scientist, who recounts her story of a stroke she had. It tells of how she went back and forth from the containment of the ego mind to the spiritual mind. I guess that's a way to put it, but just see for yourself. It's very interesting!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Altostrata

That is a brilliant video, thanks for posting it, Shanti.

Share this post


Link to post
Shanti

That is a brilliant video, thanks for posting it, Shanti.

 

You're welcome.

 

Jill seems to have had a complete separation from the two minds. So her "spiritual mind" wasn't scary to her. I suspect that what we go through is more of a warping and wounding of the ego mind and it causes a feeling of loss of identity and it's very scary. That's just my theory. I do try to find meaning in all of this because it is a comfort to me. I always have to know the "why" and I have full faith that I will be shown what I need to know, as long as I have faith in that. I guess it's just a trust that my higher guidance will show me if I'm open to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Barbarannamated

Great video, Shanti! The corpus callosum is a fascinating structure. I'd love to hear how she correlates her stroke experience to her brother's schizophrenia. This takes me back to my amazement at how neurology and psychiatry have diverged horribly. I believe there is much greater overlap related to brain structures and how and when the right brain activity manifests: during seizures/strokes, auras, visions, voices, past life memories.

Would also love to pick her brain ('scuse the pun) about what she believes meds do to brain.

Share this post


Link to post
jake

I am a black male with a masters degree in social work. Yet when I have problems associated with my withdrawal from ssri's that I stopped taking 2 years ago I am treated like I'm a drug addict looking for some free pills! I don't want another damn pill for anything yet I have to fight the system and a 'glance at me diagnosis'. I wear a business suit to work every day but when I go to the drs office I go casual. Do they even look at the fact that I am a 49 year old male who is very physically fit and my IQ probably exceeds the quacks who tell me to take ibuprofen and wait it out.BTW- Has anyone else experienced periods of lackadaisical sex drive from ADs ? I have even moreso while in withdrawal. This is maddening!

Share this post


Link to post
Shanti

I am a black male with a masters degree in social work. Yet when I have problems associated with my withdrawal from ssri's that I stopped taking 2 years ago I am treated like I'm a drug addict looking for some free pills! I don't want another damn pill for anything yet I have to fight the system and a 'glance at me diagnosis'. I wear a business suit to work every day but when I go to the drs office I go casual. Do they even look at the fact that I am a 49 year old male who is very physically fit and my IQ probably exceeds the quacks who tell me to take ibuprofen and wait it out.BTW- Has anyone else experienced periods of lackadaisical sex drive from ADs ? I have even moreso while in withdrawal. This is maddening!

 

Hi Jake. I totally relate. I've been treated like I was only a drug addict, especially when I was in severe pain. So much I've experienced too always get written off as anxiety and that drives me crazy. I've learned a lot in the last couple of years about how doctors don't know as much as I thought they did!

Share this post


Link to post
Shanti

Why is there a little icon before the title of this topic and "Resilience After Trauma?" What's it mean?

Share this post


Link to post
Barbarannamated

Jake,

Gianna Kali on her Beyond Meds blog wrote a great piece about how she is perceived and treated differently depending on how she introduces herself--as a mental health professional or a patient. I bet you would relate well to her experiences. I have avoided docs as much as possible thru this, although that will have to end soon.

I'm sad to say that the racism doesn't surprise me. I was shocked to see how people in Orange County (S Ca) treated a black male friend when we were together. It was eye opening.

Share this post


Link to post
jake

Barb, I hate to say racism at all. I just don't want to be seen differently than than anyone else when it comes to anything, especially health matters. Did you feel like you were looked down on when you were with him? Doesn't that make you feel a bit rebellious?

Share this post


Link to post
Barbarannamated

It was nonverbal actions that truly stunned me, esp in a progressive area--people locking car doors when they saw him/us, etc. He was quite used to it, but I was stunned. Had no idea it was still pervasive. I felt defensive of him and ashamed of our society, in general. In contrast, illegals are so common here, they aren't given a 2nd look or thought. Don't even get me started on that one!!

Share this post


Link to post
jake

Barb, I have fought with drs for years to cut back on the meds I was taking. I finally had to take control of things myself. I weaned myself off the major ad's and found that my first year of withdrawal was more difficult than any year with major depression before I was diagnosed. We must wake up and learn what we are allowing to be done to us before we are a society that is unable to produce original thought. BTW- When people hear I'm a black male with 'mental issues' they don't think psychiatric help they think park bench. When people locked the doors when you were with your friend did you feel like a minority also?

Share this post


Link to post
essamalbalaa

fantastic video shanti..THANK YOU

while watching it,i wished i saw it during my extreme PW and ADR,but then i realized that i was very fortunate not have seen it and got to have a first hand experience of what she's talking about

i still find it amazing the fact that WE humans get terrified shocked and so scared when we come face to face with absolute peace...we got sooooo accustomed to misery that peace and nirvanic feelings seem like falling from a high cliff and the extreme majority refuse to surrender to that and fight it with their FULL power and whats left of their energy,and thats what i sometimes call the chosen addiction to misery

i keep repeating that i REALLY miss the time i was suffering with extreme PW,and others simply cant understand that suffering is the shortest cut towards wisdom and insight

my suffering ended that very same day when i realized what this Dr. in the video realized,,when she said ""i was SHOCKED that i'm still alive""....""i can still breath""

my suffering ended that day when i fell in love with my suffering,when i realized how great of a tool it was,that very same day my suffering decided to leave and never come back.

Share this post


Link to post
Shanti

fantastic video shanti..THANK YOU

while watching it,i wished i saw it during my extreme PW and ADR,but then i realized that i was very fortunate not have seen it and got to have a first hand experience of what she's talking about

i still find it amazing the fact that WE humans get terrified shocked and so scared when we come face to face with absolute peace...we got sooooo accustomed to misery that peace and nirvanic feelings seem like falling from a high cliff and the extreme majority refuse to surrender to that and fight it with their FULL power and whats left of their energy,and thats what i sometimes call the chosen addiction to misery

i keep repeating that i REALLY miss the time i was suffering with extreme PW,and others simply cant understand that suffering is the shortest cut towards wisdom and insight

my suffering ended that very same day when i realized what this Dr. in the video realized,,when she said ""i was SHOCKED that i'm still alive""....""i can still breath""

my suffering ended that day when i fell in love with my suffering,when i realized how great of a tool it was,that very same day my suffering decided to leave and never come back.

 

Hi Essamalbalaa,

 

I'm glad you got something from the video. Did you see the discussion about Resilience after Trauma? I agree with everything you said here. It's the same view I have :)

Share this post


Link to post
Barbarannamated

fantastic video shanti..THANK YOU

while watching it,i wished i saw it during my extreme PW and ADR,but then i realized that i was very fortunate not have seen it and got to have a first hand experience of what she's talking about

 

Hi Essamalbalaa,

 

Just readin thru this and not sure what PW and ADR are. I did watch the video awhile back; perhaps this is mentioned in it.

 

Barb

Share this post


Link to post
essamalbalaa

hi barb,

ADR is adverse drug reaction,and PW is protracted withdrawal..hope i spelled them right :)

Share this post


Link to post
Barbarannamated

thanks! Should have been obvious.

Share this post


Link to post
Phil

Jill Bolte Taylor is so inspiring! It was seeing that video early in w.d that gave me so much hope for change.

 

Regarding the corpus calossum, from what I've read it is something to do with bridging the right and left hemispheres of the brain? (or maybe I'm remembering this wrong).

Share this post


Link to post
Barbarannamated

Phil, yes, that is my understanding although your use of term 'bridge' puts it in a new light. I used to think of it as a 'divider'. Helps explain why thicker CC facilitates left-right communication (bridge).

Thanks Phil!

Share this post


Link to post
btdt

fantastic video shanti..THANK YOU while watching it,i wished i saw it during my extreme PW and ADR,but then i realized that i was very fortunate not have seen it and got to have a first hand experience of what she's talking about i still find it amazing the fact that WE humans get terrified shocked and so scared when we come face to face with absolute peace...we got sooooo accustomed to misery that peace and nirvanic feelings seem like falling from a high cliff and the extreme majority refuse to surrender to that and fight it with their FULL power and whats left of their energy,and thats what i sometimes call the chosen addiction to misery i keep repeating that i REALLY miss the time i was suffering with extreme PW,and others simply cant understand that suffering is the shortest cut towards wisdom and insight my suffering ended that very same day when i realized what this Dr. in the video realized,,when she said ""i was SHOCKED that i'm still alive""....""i can still breath"" my suffering ended that day when i fell in love with my suffering,when i realized how great of a tool it was,that very same day my suffering decided to leave and never come back.

I don't get it.  Wish my suffering would end and never come back. In one day it all went away... I know this is old and likely not to be answered still I find it odd pw just stopped in one day and was done.... 

how could that be?

Share this post


Link to post
btdt

Ego death and reality

To be completely you means being alone. When this is experienced, it will bring very deep grief and sadness. You have to learn to say good-bye to everything you have loved -- not just your Mommy and Daddy, your boyfriend and your cat, but to your feelings, your mind, your ideas. You are in love with all of these. Letting go of them will feel like a great loss, even a death. It is not you who dies. What dies is everyone else. In the experience of ego death, you don't feel you're dying; you feel everybody else is dead. You feel you're all alone, totally alone. You have lost a boundary which was constructed from past experiences. But this boundary never really existed! It was just a belief. When you experience reality as it is, there is no sense of boundaries or of being separate, of inside or outside. (Diamond Heart Book 2, pg 169)

 

Ego death and unity

Experiencing this unity reveals to us that life is beautiful. Prior to this, when you experience yourself moving from the state of the physical or of the personality to the state of the essential or of the boundless dimensions, there is the feeling that life is a problem. The best option seems to be to get away from life, and one may long to disappear or die. From the perspective of unity, there is no such thing as dying, nor of being reborn. There is no such thing as ego death, and no such thing as enlightenment either, since you are already the unity. This is the state of affairs all the time and always -- before you develop an ego, when it is dissolving, and after you are dissolved. All those parts are the unity itself, and so you are not going anywhere. (Facets of Unity, pg 88)

 

I have considered the idea that the drug Paxil does something to break the boundaries of ego reality to the extent that we feel nothing is real; depersonalization. I think the problem is that it is too much, too harsh of an experience when we aren't ready for such an event. This can go along with the other topic about Kundalini. Maybe it's that our physical brains and nervous systems aren't a high enough vibration to withstand the energy as well, and so we have the zaps and such. Or, maybe we are still basing our identity a little too much from the ego self rather than our true self, so there isn't a firm grip of who we are, our identity, when that boundary falls and we're stuck kind of in between identities. Not fully grounded in either one. We lose knowing who we are and why we're here.

 

I've been spiritual and working on my spiritual growth for many years. I think it's just something that might not be meant to be experienced in this realm unless we've reached full enlightenment, or at least a very high attainment. I feel there is so much more to understand about this and ponder it often, it's a bit beyond my grasp but it's there in my mind as something to explore.

" I think it's just something that might not be meant to be experienced in this realm unless we've reached full enlightenment"

I have been thinking about this oddly enough today I was reading about a couple people from the 60s scientists that used drugs.  One speaks of spiritual things I still have the links open so will post them in case another comes to this some day.  

Levels of consciousness

by John Lilly MD

http://www.whale.to/b/states.html

I read his bio and watched a few of his videos. 

 

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/hamiltons-pharmacopeia/sihkal-shulgins-i-have-known-and-loved

The Shulgins... 

list of books he wrote 

read his bio too... 

 

From the Shulgins I learned Effexor is classed as a 

A classification of chemical compounds, most of which are psychoactive drugs. Beta-Phenethylamine is neurotransmitter in the brain, and it is believed to be the body's natural version of amphetamine. 

Some drugs that fall into the phenethylamine classification include all amphetamines (as well as methylphenidate), ephedrine, designer hallucinogens (2C-B, 2C-I etc.), mescaline, bupropion (Wellbutrin), and venlafaxine (Effexor), as well as the amino acids (D/L)Phenylalanine and L-Tyrosine. 

Books[edit]

I guess it is all well and good if you want to experiment with your own brain knowing your taking drugs that will kill your ego... but that is not what I was trying to do and I did not know I was taking a chance.  I liked my Ego right where it was. 

 

Could very well be I just don't get this...but my take on it is that drugs can destroy the ego and sense of self and some take drugs to help them do that ... I don't care if they do that ...fine by me... but I did not want to do that I had other plans for my life. 

period ...

I could be an old stick in the mud when I feel like I am just trying to keep my feet on the ground... not sure either way I wish you all peace.

 

Share this post


Link to post
degen12

I think that all SSRIs, given long enough, and in the right individual, will induce issues with depersonalization and ego syntonicity/dystonicity. It might be that the older you when you start an SSRI the less likely that is to occur, but people are remaking themselves all of their lives. If you have been on an SSRI for years I imagine you might feel more than a bit disconnected from yourself and those things that have happened during those years.

 

 

Ego death and reality
To be completely you means being alone. When this is experienced, it will bring very deep grief and sadness. You have to learn to say good-bye to everything you have loved -- not just your Mommy and Daddy, your boyfriend and your cat, but to your feelings, your mind, your ideas. You are in love with all of these. Letting go of them will feel like a great loss, even a death. It is not you who dies. What dies is everyone else. In the experience of ego death, you don't feel you're dying; you feel everybody else is dead. You feel you're all alone, totally alone. You have lost a boundary which was constructed from past experiences. But this boundary never really existed! It was just a belief. When you experience reality as it is, there is no sense of boundaries or of being separate, of inside or outside. (Diamond Heart Book 2, pg 169)

 

Extremely interesting. When my ego died I felt like my "self" died. But then again I reached a state of ego death, in part, by the realization that my personality was a series of masks I fitted on for different occasions, and to defend against hurt, past and present.

 

 

 

 

Not to go too far off topic, but the previous poster mentioned Effexor. Effexor and mirtazapine have some downstream effect on various opioid receptors (agonists of kappa-opioid receptors have been used in models of depersonalization) that make depersonalization a known side-effect of either drug. I am not a doctor.

 

 

J Mol Neurosci. 2002 Feb-Apr;18(1-2):143-9.
Venlafaxine and mirtazapine: different mechanisms of antidepressant action, common opioid-mediated antinociceptive effects--a possible opioid involvement in severe depression?
Schreiber S1, Bleich A, Pick CG.
Author information
Abstract

The efficacy of each antidepressant available has been found equal to that of amitriptyline in double-blind studies as far as mild to moderate depression is involved. However, it seems that some antidepressants are more effective than others in the treatment of severe types of depression (i.e., delusional depression and refractory depression). Following studies regarding the antinociceptive mechanisms of various antidepressants, we speculate that the involvement of the opioid system in the antidepressants' mechanism of action may be necessary, in order to prove effective in the treatment of severe depression. Among the antidepressants of the newer generations, that involvement occurs only with venlafaxine (a presynaptic drug which blocks the synaptosomal uptake of noradrenaline and serotonin and, to a lesser degree, of dopamine) and with mirtazapine (a postsynaptic drug which enhances noradrenergic and 5-HT1A-mediated serotonergic neurotransmission via antagonism of central alpha-auto- and hetero-adrenoreceptors). When mice were tested with a hotplate analgesia meter, both venlafaxine and mirtazapine induced a dose-dependent, naloxone-reversible antinociceptive effect following ip administration. Summing up the various interactions of venlafaxine and mirtazapine with opioid, noradrenergic and serotonergic agonists and antagonists, we found that the antinociceptive effect of venlafaxine is influenced by opioid receptor subtypes (mu-, kappa1- kappa3- and delta-opioid receptor subtypes) combined with the alpha2-adrenergic receptor, whereas the antinociceptive effect of mirtazapine mainly involves mu- and kappa3-opioid mechanisms. This opioid profile of the two drugs may be one of the explanations to their efficacy in severe depression, unlike the SSRIs and other antidepressants which lack opioid activity.

PMID: 11931344 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Share this post


Link to post
degen12

Excellent point, Roads. The Buddhist concepts of letting go of control, resignation, or submission are similar. Or, from the Christian-influenced 12-step program, trusting your future to God.

 

I am not bashing Buddhism at all, but I think many Buddhist concepts are all about reaching a state of permanent ego death. To relieve suffering, I have heard. If you have no "self", how can you suffer?

 

EDIT: Oops sorry for the double post.

 

EDIT 2: I would also warn anyone going down this path that it may lead to healing, but some doors, once opened, can never be closed.

Share this post


Link to post
LoveandLight

Yes good point careful what you wish for spiritual path not all roses can be frightening (IMO)

Share this post


Link to post
btdt

If I got drunk and had a vision... I would be told I was drunk and it would not happen when I was sober and I too would expect that... with these drugs you take every day ...like being drunk everyday...long term effects take place the brain changes... 

 

Experiences we have under the influence of drugs can be call a spriitual path if you like they have been for centuries... but to me a rock is a rock... stoned is stoned and all thiings you thought while stoned do not add up if and when you recover. 

the end

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...