kalika: After Effexor

[kalika]

Hi..

 

I found this forum quite a while ago (the "Referred by" in my profile says I came across it while googling the word "enthusiastic", and noticed a topic on brain zaps, which were all too familiar, and got drawn in from there), and am finally returning for my very first intro post. 

 

A little background; the family doctor put me on Ritalin when I was about 8 years old, and then switched me to Paxil when I was 18. I suppose with Paxil being in the anti-depressant class, at the time I assumed it should have been helping with my depression - but it wasn't. I remember talking to a co-worker when I was about 22 who just started on Effexor and gave it praise, so I mentioned it to my doc and she made the switch. It didn't seem to help my depression, but it did really help to alleviate any cares or concerns for pretty much anything else.. I dubbed it the "I don't care" drug. Within another couple years we ended up adding Wellbutrin and Clonazepam to the mix - the former of which I didn't stay on too long, and the latter I ended up abusing. 

 

In the months leading to my 27th birthday my life had spiralled out of control, and I truly hit my own rock bottom. I won't go into all the gory details here, but one thing I knew above all else was that I absolutely needed to get off all the medication I was on and become someone I could be okay with, or I was going to end up dead. I had been tapering the Effexor for about two years (wish I could tell you the doses I was on, but that time of my life was a bit of a blur.. I thought I got up to 300mg, but from what I read online it looks like the max dose is 225?). It seemed like every time I finally got as low as I could go (37.5), I got to experience killer brain zaps from hell, and all the other wonderful withdrawal effects Effexor offers. And then I would go back up a bit, and try to come back down. It was hell. 

 

At one point, sometime around x-mas time in 2008, a friend suggested I try this lemonade-maple syrup-cayenne pepper cleanse with him (aka the "Master Cleanse"). This is also the time I stopped taking Effexor, cold turkey.... forgive me for not remembering details or reasons leading up to this decision, again that was a blurry period. I remember reading that Effexor metabolizes in the liver, and that this cleanse was supposed to help flush the liver, so I put the two together and decided this was it.

 

I'm not going to say it was easy, and certainly not going to pretend it was smart, or condone it for others in any way. It was necessary - for me - at the time. I'm prepared to catch flack for going cold turkey as I did, as I have seen multiple warning on this forum to taper slowly. I can say that the normally brutal brain zaps were drastically less noticeable (I'm talking WAY better than when I was just trying to taper) I think maybe due to the cleanse, and so i kept on. And on.. and It's been nearly 8 years since I stopped taking Effexor.

 

I come here today to seek collective experience and knowledge on the topic of long term after effects of Effexor. 

 

In the last couple years I feel I've been experiencing an impairment in my cognitive function, most noticeably my memory - short-term; long-term; conversations I had a week ago, and who I might have had them with; needing to do something and forgetting what that thing was minutes later; forgetting words, not normal tip-of-the-tongue forgetting, and as often as multiple times in a single conversation, I could go on.. And other things, where before I could pick up on new things almost instantly (sit me in front of the computer and I could learn a new program in hours), now I really struggle and find myself re-reading instructions dozens of times. Admittedly, even typing this, I'm really struggling with spelling words properly and going back many times to correct what my fingers couldn't properly pronounce. Talking to people is hard, personality expression and decision making is also really challenging. I've been unemployed for the last year (the economy in my city is really struggling and there are thousands of people being laid-off work all around me, making it even harder to find work), and all of the above is really impacting any confidence in myself to get back out there. 

 

At first I began to fear I was coming down with some abnormally crazy young form of Alzheimer's, of course everyone I confide in tells me that's absurd and not to worry. And then somehow the thought came to me that maybe Effexor somehow left a permanent mark on me, maybe even a degenerative one if I don't take action and do something about it. A few years ago a bike accident landed me on my left forehead, so there's that too.. I'm mostly trying to rule everything out and figure out what is wrong with me, and how I could possibly fix it. 

 

I started researching online and have found quite a bit of info regarding a co-relation between Effexor and memory loss BUT that seems to be a symptom for those who are currently taking it - I can't find much info from anyone who has stopped taking it for 5 or 10+ years and is experiencing prefrontal cortex dysfunction.

 

Tonight I came across a topic on this forum where someone asked "Do you think I need to go back on Venlafaxine and taper down slowly to prevent lasting damage to my brain?" and am really curious about this. What kind of lasting brain damage is possible when someone doesn't taper off properly? And is there any way to reverse it?

 

Thank you for reading, I appreciate any input you could offer. And please forgive the length of this post, I tried to keep it brief but have a tendency to ramble a bit.. 

[ChessieCat]

Hi kaliki and welcome to SA,

 

I love your avatar!!!  There are lots of cats on this forum, and some dogs too.

 

I saw your post in the how-psychiatric-drugs-remodel-your-brain topic and thought I would respond here in your topic.

 

 

With multiple drugs and a history of drug changes and cold turkeys, all of this becomes even more complicated. And if a person is started on these kinds of drugs at an early age before the brain has ever completely established normal mature functioning--well, it can't be good. (All of which is why I recommend an extremely slow taper particularly to anyone with a multiple drug history, a history of many years on meds, a history of past cold turkeys or frequent med changes, and a history of being put on drugs at a young age.)

 

This is a really great post, thank you for sharing. 

I'm concerned because I seem to meet all of the criteria for "well, it can't be good"... I was put on medication at 8 years old, and switched between a few different ones before finally going cold turkey 20 years later. If only a forum like this existed back then, what a wonderful support system this is!

 

It's been 8 years since I took my last pill, and have been really noticing some degradation in my cognitive function. I'm not sure if it's related to my past med experience, but after browsing through this forum am starting to really lean in that direction.

 

I've been looking for information on how I might be able to remodel my brain.. or even how I might go about finding a professional someone who can help me with this (not even sure what type of doctor would specialize in this).

 

 

 

The brain is an amazing thing and I believe that by keeping our brain active we can improve it.  The Backwards Bicycle video may seem a bit trite and it is really funny but on a serious note, this guy had been riding a bike for years and with practice was able to learn to ride it differently.

 

Video:  The Backwards Brain Bicycle

 

Video:  The Brain That Changes Itself - Norman Doidge
 

Neuroplasticity and Limbic Retraining

[kalika]

Yay cats!! There's three furry loves in my home here 

Thank you for the welcome.

 

That bicycle video had me cracking up, very interesting seeing that moment when his brain snaps back into "normal bike mode", and also how fast a child can re-train their brains.

 

And thank you for the other links, I'm slowly making my way through the Neuroplasticity and Limbic Retraining topic, found myself a bit distracted as I googled "Neuroplasticians" in my city (unfortunately not much came up).. and then started googling for Posit Science and other Brain Training options. Here's to hoping that it's something I can do on my own, since I've always been a pretty big autodidact. 

 

It's becoming a bit more clear that what I'm currently experiencing is a result of my medical history, and I suppose all this information on limbic retraining is providing a bit of hope (certainly better than early onset Alzheimer's!). Also forgot to mention that I'm going to begin a daily tincture of Gingko, Gotu Cola, Bacopa, Licorice and Passion Flower.. hoping the Adaptogens and Nootropics will assist me in this endeavor.

[CWT]

Hi, Kalika.  Since you are interested in the long-term effects of effexor, here are a couple of books that will help you:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Epidemic-Bullets-Psychiatric-Astonishing/dp/0307452425/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1474404930&sr=8-1&keywords=anatomy+of+an+epidemic+by+robert+whitaker

 

https://www.amazon.com/Drug-Induced-Dementia-MD-Grace-Jackson/dp/1438972318/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1474405084&sr=8-1&keywords=drug+induced+dementia

[sollicitudo]

So you quit effexor in 2008 and you're cognitive issues started a few years ago? How long ago would you say they started specifically? I would say it's not typical for it to take that long for problems to emerge, but god knows what these things do to our brains.

 

What about your accident? How severe was your head trauma? Lastly, how is your mental health. I do remember my depression and anxiety making me very spaced out and forgetful before I started meds. Not really campared to how it's been after meds though.

 

Welcome!

[kalika]

Hi, Kalika.  Since you are interested in the long-term effects of effexor, here are a couple of books that will help you:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Epidemic-Bullets-Psychiatric-Astonishing/dp/0307452425/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1474404930&sr=8-1&keywords=anatomy+of+an+epidemic+by+robert+whitaker

 

https://www.amazon.com/Drug-Induced-Dementia-MD-Grace-Jackson/dp/1438972318/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1474405084&sr=8-1&keywords=drug+induced+dementia

 

Thank you for the references CWT, will look into them! 

 

 

So you quit effexor in 2008 and you're cognitive issues started a few years ago? How long ago would you say they started specifically? I would say it's not typical for it to take that long for problems to emerge, but god knows what these things do to our brains.

 

What about your accident? How severe was your head trauma? Lastly, how is your mental health. I do remember my depression and anxiety making me very spaced out and forgetful before I started meds. Not really campared to how it's been after meds though.

 

Welcome!

 

Thanks for the welcome 

 

Yes it does seem like a really long time for problems to emerge, I wish there was some sort of accurate and conclusive test for this sort of thing so I could know what's causing it and treat it appropriately - unless theres really only one way to treat what I'm experiencing, in which case maybe it doesn't matter. I can say that about a year after going off Effexor I ended up putting all my stuff into storage and going off to travel the other side of the world for about 2.5 years, which is when I really started developing passions in my life (being completely away from everything I knew as familiar was quite helpful). I had a great time, but even then I was challenged when it came to personal expression and social behaviour. There were still days when I struggled to get out of bed. 

 

I was back home and back into "normal" life for about 3.5 years before I was laid off work.. but the months leading up to my lay off I remember really struggling to drag myself to work, cook meals, or do things that I loved to do. And then being without routine for the last year almost seems like my mental function got much worse.. keeping in mind that it's been a year of very low physical activity, outer stimulation (I'm basically a hermit now), not even the best eating habits to be honest, maybe a meal a day. But every once in a while that will completely flip and I find all this motivation to make a good breakfast, and find myself juggling plans with 3 people in one day, or suddenly motivated to spend hours in the garden or clean the house or garage out. 

 

But to have such severe mental fog and memory lapse, struggling to hold conversation because words are hard, etc etc, I feel there must be something going on. I really struggle to focus these days. I could almost see it as something that started off as a slow burn, and was exasperated especially in the last year.

 

The bike accident was almost right after I returned from travelling, so maybe spring 2012. I might have received a concussion because I was knocked unconscious and couldn't stand up without passing out for quite a while immediately after it happened. Since I had just got back, I didn't have any of my health care info and didn't bother going to the hospital for checkups, I didn't have a vehicle to get around, and no way I could afford an ambulance ride - again, not the best decision I've ever made.. I did have an MRI about a year and a half ago because I was concerned about some strange and intense 1-2 second long headaches I was getting, but it seems they didn't see anything unusual in the scan. 

 

I'm certainly not a picture of clean mental health, there is a lot I still struggle with, and yet there's a part of me that knows I could be a big help to myself if I just ate better and didn't sit on my ass all day.. but.. well that's hard too.

[PoetJester]

Hey Kalika

I just wanted to send you a message of commiseration.  The memory issues are not only exclusive to Effexor. There are many of us who are having horrible cognitive problems on this site. I was on high doses of Zoloft and Zyprexa for almost 14 years and quit cold turkey in feb 2014.  I didn't get the internet until a year ago so I didn't really know anything about tapering at the time I went cold turkey. I had just cut my dose in half of each - Zoloft 200-mg to 100mg and Zyprexa 17.5 mg to 7.5 mg for several years and then just jumped off.  At first I was ok except for terrible insomnia, but within the past year and a half I have been developing pretty bad memory problems. I attribute most of it to just lack of sleep and the poor quality of sleep I do get in withdrawal.  As the sleep deprivation continues to add up, eventually the mind just reaches a breaking point.

 

  At first, I had problems remembering to zip up my fly before leaving my apt (I was leaving my apt with my fly down every day for about 2 months straight) and then I began forgetting where I had put things around the apt and later  my cooking became affected (burning things on the stove or screwing up the ingredients in recipes.   In the past year it has been about how you mentioned it- losing the thread of conversations I am having with others to the point where I end up staring into space in a daze trying desperately to remember something I was going to add to the conversation only to end up trailing off with an "um... um....um" as my memory gears slip and the person I am talking to looks at me with some concern.    Lately, my short term memory has been worsening drastically.  I will think of something I was going to do and then as soon as I start to think of something else, I will have problems recalling what it was I was going to do even if I had just thought of it 5 seconds previously.  Usually, I try to either retrace my line of thinking or else move on to something else and wait for memory to catch up a little later. I call it, Teflon brain, where it's impossible for new things to stick anymore.  The mind is a miracle and a resilient miracle at that, so I have been able to adapt, but it is quite frustrating at times to work with slowered capabilities. I am losing track of words more frequently too, these days and though once a voracious reader for many years, in the past 3 years I haven't read more than a couple short stories, a handful of poems and whatever news I get on the internet.  . 

 

In the past 4 months I have taken up going to the bar as a way of getting to sleep.  I had been sober for 15 years previous, but when you can't sleep sometimes all your convictions go out the window.  Desperate times call for desperate measures as they say.  Now, I bike down to the lone bar in the area, and after 3 pints of beer, I am able to drift off to sleep.  Of course, while it is nice to sleep, alcohol is no friend of brain cells, and just today I was looking at my address on a sheet of paper and my street name was unfamiliar to me for a couple of seconds.  I have been living in my current apartment for 10 years, so that's not a great sign.  Anyhow Kalika, I hope you are able to adjust to withdrawal world as best you can. 

 

Derek

[kalika]

Hi Derek, thanks for sharing. You could have been writing my own experience just now. Just the other day I invited my grandma and aunts over to visit before we all headed off to dinner, over the phone my aunt asked my address for confirmation. "455?" she asked, and though there was a slight something in me that was questioning it, it sounded right to me (the power of suggestion maybe), turns out they were knocking on the wrong door for a while and no one was home.. my address is 452, and I've been here four years now..

 

Have you found anything to be helpful for you and your memory? I'm going to try and stick with these brain exercises, and the meditation which is supposed to help rebuild these areas of the brain that seem to be declining. I wonder if meditation might help your sleep issues? Since I haven't been working for a long time, I haven't really had to adhere to a sleep schedule.. last winter I was all over the map, but usually going to bed around 8 or 9 am and waking up around 3 or 4 in the afternoon, though there was a brief time if shifted all the way to 2 pm sleep time, and 10 pm wake up. Now I mostly go to bed around 4 am and wake up around noon. I used to have really bad insomnia, and found my biggest help was drinking a big glass of tea about an hour before bed (with enough time to hit the bathroom before sleeping, otherwise I'd wake up in the middle of the night with a full bladder and not able to fall asleep after). The tea was a big mix of helpful herbs including chamomile, lavender, skullcap, st johns wort, lemon balm, passion flower, valerian.. have also had good luck with sleep tinctures like this one http://www.stfrancisherbfarm.com/index.php?p=catalog&parent=970&pg=

[sollicitudo]

kalika,

 

Please don't think I'm trying to remove the blame from the medication but maybe this could be caused by a combination of things.

 

My father hit his head (not resulting in unconsciousness) 7 years ago. He developed tinnitus and his mental / cognitive health took a huge hit. It worsened for some time before it slowly got better. No doctor could see any damage to the brain and he wasn't helped by anything else. Eventually he recovered. I also believe that his stress from observing and worrying about his condition played a significant part.

[kalika]

kalika,

 

Please don't think I'm trying to remove the blame from the medication but maybe this could be caused by a combination of things.

 

My father hit his head (not resulting in unconsciousness) 7 years ago. He developed tinnitus and his mental / cognitive health took a huge hit. It worsened for some time before it slowly got better. No doctor could see any damage to the brain and he wasn't helped by anything else. Eventually he recovered. I also believe that his stress from observing and worrying about his condition played a significant part.

 

Hi sollicitudo, no worries, I really do want to know know what's actually going on with me. If not the medication, then something and I would still like to do what I can. Maybe it's a combination of things, I really don't know.. I suppose "blaming the medication" is the easy answer.

I'm curious about your father, if you care to share more.. if not, I totally understand (just ignore the following questions). You say the doctor couldn't see any damage to his brain, did he have an MRI or EEG or anything? How long would you say that it worsened for? You say that nothing was helping him to get better, but he eventually recovered?

I'm wondering what type of brain scans I should look into getting that might help me figure out what's wrong. 

[sollicitudo]

You can ask anything ☺

 

He did eventually have an MRI, not sure about EEG.

He was very upset and frustrated in the beginning because he kept getting referrals to psychologists and ear specialists when he really wanted to see a neurologist.

 

I don't really know for how long he worsened but he was struggling for a long time. Not being able to follow movies, read, having conversations etc.

 

I'd say about 18-24 months out his complaints were further in between and he gradually returned to his hypomanic, scatter brained, creative self.

 

I wasn't being clear about nothing helping him. He wasn't helped by any professional is what I meant to say. The only thing that got him through was a (mostly) positive attitude and gently pushing his limits.

 

I think you need to see a neurologist. I can't see any point in reinstating and tapering at this point. I'm almost certain that the doctors will suggest medication though.

[kalika]

I think you need to see a neurologist. I can't see any point in reinstating and tapering at this point. I'm almost certain that the doctors will suggest medication though.

 

Yeah I'm hoping to avoid medication as much as possible.. thank you for the advice, I'm going to start looking into a neurologist.

I'm glad to hear your father has returned to his self, for his own sake and because it gives me a bit of hope 

[Skeeter]

Kalika,

I have a background in EMS (Emergency Medical Services), and have done research on TBI's (Traumatic Brain Injuries) as a part of my studies years ago.  Your symptoms sounded familiar to me as possible long term effects of a TBI.  Maybe look into seeing a specialist that deals ONLY with that sort of thing.  They have ways of retraining the brain to think correctly, or to train the brain into making new connections.  If you cannot find a TBI center, maybe look for a neuropsychologist- they can perform assessments to see what, if any issues you may have.

 

Here are some links:

Obviously for this first one, you will fall into the mild TBI, click on the link when you get to it after reading the beginning:

http://www.traumaticbraininjury.com/understanding-tbi/what-are-the-effects-of-tbi/

 

This is an ad, but has some interesting info:

http://weillcornellconcussion.org/about-concussions/long-term-effects-brain-injuries

 

Long article, but addresses some important issues:

http://www.traumaticbraininjury.net/faqs/

 

I obviously cannot say what caused your issues, but you will be on the right track talking to docs that deal with the brain.  Your MRI can be completely normal looking with a mild TBI, but it does not mean you are "fine".  AN EEG might be indicated, I am not sure, it would show if you have any unusual brain waves.  I had a 24 hour one done before and it is a bit odd, but obviously not painful (unless you try to yank the leads off before the glue is soaked with water...lol).  Those docs could send you to the right place to help you if you do not have any issues they can see.  it is worth a try, anyways.

Good luck to you!!

Skeeter