vjekob: Getting off Olanzapine based tablets

[vjekob]

scallywag, what do you mean by "there are any symptoms that aren't showing up" ?
So you really think that after a couple of weeks on a dose my daughters situation would stabilize
and improve to the extent that further small reductions would then not be noticeable
by her ?

[AmyK]

Caring DAD, sorry! ????

Good, your scale seems fine!

[vjekob]

Looks like I can't edit my last message - this is what I wanted to say:

scallywag, what do you mean by "if there are any symptoms that aren't showing up" ?
So you really think that after a couple of weeks on a dose my daughters situation would stabilize
and improve to the extent that some of the "symptoms" below would disappear and further small
reductions would then not be noticeable by her ? 

 

The thing is that right now, the visible "symptoms" to be dealt with:
- sensitivity to sound
- disinterest
- anti social thinking/people disturbing her
- thoughts conjured up based on the root cause self esteem issues
are not severe and would probably be best dealt with via psychology
and since these "symptoms" are not getting worse with dosage reduction,
I am presuming they are due to Olanzapine and I'm finding it hard to convince
myself that staying on a dosage and then reducing is better than just further reducing
and then dealing with the "symptoms" once Olanzapine is out of the picture.

[scallywag]

With any psychiatric medications and especially neuroleptics ("anti-psychotics") such as olanzapine, symptoms can take 2 weeks or more to appear after a dose change. When you make dose changes every 3-4 days one after another, the CNS (central nervous system) is always dealing with a new change. Holding at a dose for 4 weeks or more allows time to test whether the small frequent reductions are working as it seems for your daughter or whether there is "built-up" work in her CNS that needs to be done to catch up to all the changes.

 

I  can't say that holding will reduce your daughter's reactions to dose changes, but it is likely the only way to reduce her symptoms.

[vjekob]

scallywag, any idea whether my daughter's "symptom" of being disinterested (and not wanting to listen) - some examples:
- takes several days to talk her into washing her hair
- she keeps saying no to reading a book with me about self esteem although I frequently mention
to her that that book may hold ideas on how to make her feel better
- keeps saying no to exercise

- generally frequently mentions that she isn't interested in anything - although when I mention
kittens, puppies, food , family members, she is clearly interested and feels they are important
to her as if she doesn't want (or more precisely can't) change although she can smile about it
and often gives indications that she wants to.
Would have something to do with dosage reduction/withdrawl or Olanzapine in general

I feel the answer to how to get her to snap out of it would drastically speed up
recovery and lessen effects of the drug as she herself would be able to compensate
some of the side effects with various activities/positive thoughts.

[Shep]

 

I feel the answer to how to get her to snap out of it would drastically speed up

recovery and lessen effects of the drug as she herself would be able to compensate

some of the side effects with various activities/positive thoughts.

 

 

Hi, vjekob.

 

I'm just reading through your thread about your daughter's journey off antipsychotics, and I just had to post how lucky she is to have you as her advocate. The kind of care you're providing is excellent, and it's good she's coming off these drugs at such a young age. 

 

I'm not sure there is a way to "snap out of it". Like someone with a broken leg, it can be painful to start walking on it too soon. Our minds are temporarily injured, so we need to nurture them with soft and quiet activities. I'm also on a journey that involves coming off antipsychotics. While I started at 17, so around the same time as your daughter, it took me 30 years to get off these drugs. I didn't know about slow tapers or rebound psychosis. So it's wonderful that your daughter does know. Her future is not going to be defined by this. 

 

In many ways, your daughter is getting an education that goes far beyond what she'll learn in school. She's already far ahead of her peers when it comes to learning about not only psychiatric drugs, but the entire pharmaceutical industry. 

 

Have you read Robert Whitaker's book, Anatomy of an Epidemic? Here is a short video about it - Robert Whitaker, author Anatomy of an Epidemic.

 

So she's getting off the drugs at a young age and will have her whole life ahead of her, plenty of time for counseling in the future. Perhaps for now, simply letting her explore where she is without having too many constraints will help. 

 

There's a great thread about journaling, which she may like to explore:

 

Journaling / Journalling / Writing Therapy / Therapeutic Writing

 

I do a lot of journaling. I also enjoy drawing and coloring and doing some graphic design using PhotoShop, just exploring my current headspace with no pressure. Gentle, calming music is also a great way to explore. 

 

 

 

 

- generally frequently mentions that she isn't interested in anything - although when I mention

kittens, puppies, food , family members, she is clearly interested and feels they are important

to her as if she doesn't want (or more precisely can't) change although she can smile about it

and often gives indications that she wants to.

 

 

Perhaps she could put together a scrapbook with pictures of kittens, puppies, food, family members. Something with comforting and soothing images to help her calm her CNS and ease her through this difficult phase.

 

And remember, it is a phase. It's temporary, although for many of us, quite lengthy.  

 

And please make sure you're taking care of yourself, as care givers also need lots of self care, too.

 

Here are even more things to explore:

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Neuro Emotions

 

"Change the channel" -- dealing with cognitive symptoms

 

Sending healing vibes to both you and your daughter.

[vjekob]

Thanks Shep - will go through all the info.
The problem is that my daughter just doesn't want to (or can't) do anything.
I will try to suggest to her the ideas you suggested but up till now, she just
nods her head and says no and keeps to her bed. It's not like she is physically not able to
as she smiles, talks and gets up , walks around but she just doesn't want to
do things which I indicate would help her. I guess I was a bit too lenient and
we didn't get her do do a lot around the house (she hasn't fought much in life) - maybe
that is now getting back at us and not the drug / don't know, but it's the most
frustrating thing. You can tell her 3,4 or 5 days to get washed and she says no, and
then finally she sees herself that it's time to get washed. She doesn't want to
have much to do with pc's/internet (spent way too much time on that before
running away from certain issues - now doesn't want anything to do with it) - so it's
almost a one sided battle (me figuring everything out and giving the tablet/supplement) except for
her being very eager to get off the tablets. So, no progress with exercise or reading about
her situation - she just doesn't want to - what can I do but pray that things change.
The only alternative I have would be to bargain her fulfillment of tasks in return for
food - some type of idea of being worthy of being fed if tasks are performed - but I
don't think this would work out either (unless she would get very hungry ).
So, there is little progress, where I believe a lot could be accomplished if
she acted like most of the people on this forum who need to fight to get through
this ordeal.

[Shep]

Hi, again.

 

She sounds like she has a bad cause of drug-induced anhedonia. These threads give more information:

 

Anhedonia, apathy, demotivation, emotional numbness

 

Emotional numbness on and off drugs

 

 

There may not be anything you can do about this right now. I know a lot of us not only deal with anhedonia, it sometimes comes with a great deal of fatigue, a heaviness in the body that makes moving very, very difficult. Some of us also deal with severe memory problems, making even ordinary tasks extremely difficult and tiring.  It's truly the most exhausting thing most of us have ever dealt with.  But again, it's temporary.

 

Perhaps offer her an adult coloring book and some colored pens or a scrap book with pictures and see if she takes it up. If not, perhaps she will later on. 

[scallywag]

Shep has given you great information from the SA forums and personal experience. 

 

I wanted to respond to your question about rapidly reducing dosage to lift your daughter's symptoms. These drugs - neuroactive medications, don't operate the way other drugs do. The CNS (central nervous system) adapts itself to the presence of the drug. When the drug is removed, the CNS must undo the changes it made.  These changes are the source of withdrawal symptoms. Rapid dose reductions risk making symptoms worse and creating new ones.  It's best to give the CNS time to make the changes slowly to avoid a HUGE and long-lasting wave of withdrawal symptoms. If your daughter is experiencing adverse effects from being on the meds, they will decrease with the dose -- you don't want to get rid of the "side" effects with a fast taper only to replace them with withdrawal symptoms. 

[vjekob]

Thanks for all the info - will hold on this dose for a while now and work on
finding what interests her.

[vjekob]

I thought maybe the apathy had something partly to do with the dosage
variation due to me roughly cutting tablets and then putting 2-3 pieces
together to form the required weight (I was cutting them with a sharp
knife till now - usually resulting in a 3 piece split), so I then thought
of using a sharp razor blade - this worked (tablet broke in half).
So I thought, now the variation will be lower since I will be dealing
with halves (and now I need less than half a tablet for each dose). Well, low and behold
further frustration - I measured the weight of the two halves and
got a weight lower than expected (Based on initial whole tablet weight). Measuring 3 more whole tablets
from 3 different packs, I found weights of 159mg,154mg and 151mg for each tablet.
I rang the pharmacy and there's no Olanzapine in smaller amounts, that
can be measured out .
The only thing I can think of doing is working with each tablet on it's own so that I
take the weight of todays dosage (77mg) and calculate the corresponding Olanzapine
using the median tablet weight (154mg) - this is then 2.5mg. I then need to
calculate the required tablet weight for each dose based on actual whole tablet weight.

[Rico]

Hi vjekob,

 

How is your daughter doing?

 

I am currently tapering Zyprexa (Olanzapine) too. I found a compounding pharmacy that can compound capsules to any desired dosage. Is this an option for you?

 

I did have some bad luck with a liquid form that made me very sick, so I did an initial taper of 25% out of frustration really. I am holding in that dose for a few more weeks and then will be going down by 10% after that using compounded capsules.

 

I can very much relate to your daughter's situation. My psychiatric history started when I had a nervous breakdown in first year college. She is very lucky to have your support and awareness of the dangers of these drugs. I wasn't so lucky - my parents supported the doctors because they believed the drugs will make me well.

 

I understand what your daughter is going through, and I don't think it's all related to Olanzapine side effects and withdrawal. I am sure that she is also upset about her situation with college and the psych experience. Is she seeing a counsellor or psychologist at the moment? Does she have friends that can come visit her?

 

I wish your daughter all the best in recovery and I am very glad she is getting off this treadmill early!

 

 

Rico

[vjekob]

Hi Rico,
I haven't updated the meds history yet but the dosage is now at 1.7mg.

We had kept the dosage at 2.5mg for about a week as at that time there was a concert my daughter wanted
to go to and this certainly helped stabilize things especially since I had been dropping the dosage
linearly until then (which was commented in a post above as not being  helpful). After the concert,
I had some problems - one day my daughter didn't want to take the tablets any more - the next day we noticed no
side effects, but she agreed to continue taking the tablets the next evening. Although side effects take time to manifest
themselves, I had seen clear improvements in my daughter's behavior and well being with each reduction
in the dosage, so I decided to continue with reductions . I make drops of  .1g (some 5%) of Olanzapine each day or each
couple of days (and stabilising each couple of days in between). As noted in all the literature, each person is different and
other than the 10% guideline, each person can try and see whether increased reductions have negative
side effects. Until now, things are just improving and I will continue with the reductions with smaller
reductions after 1mg. Once the tablets are gone, we'll have to focus on working on the actual problems.

 

I can surely relate to your comments about your parents supporting the doctors - I had a bit of a hard time
with my wife and other daughter at the beginning as they also weren't on my side regarding
getting my daughter off the meds and me meddling in dosage reductions (they commented that I wasn't a doctor ).
One of the major problems I see is that they also saw "depression" as a type of sickness rather than a side-effect/result of other
problems (which can't be solved by sedating someone). My daughter was lucky in that I have always believed
in healthy food and keeping away from doctors and tablets , so I took things into my own hands.

 

I think you did the right thing with the 25% reduction as I see the 10% rule as a guide and my experiences
show that it was absolutely the correct thing to do to drop the dosage in case the side effects
were severe - as in our case, I had made drops from 10mg ->5mg -> 3.75mg in a very short period
of time - the improvements were immediately visible, but the situation had not improved to the point
that it was "normal" till somewhere around 2.5mg, so I think there is some threshold above
which there is a need for dropping the dosage drastically. The important thing is not to "panic"
if side effects kick in - just keep at the dosage until things stabilize (my suggestion is to never increase dosage
after a reduction) and then keep reducing at a rate which your body can accept keeping the 10% rule as a guide.
I saw that we can reduce more than 10% and I am doing so. Personally I think it is worthwhile to
"experiment" and see if one can take larger reductions in dosage due to the dangers associated with
taking this drug (getting off it ASAP/taking the least amount) .
 

No, my daughter isn't seeing a psychologist yet(she refuses to do so at the moment) and has no
friends around. Her behavior is quite natural now and I am hoping soon we will work on
resolving the issues behind all this and integrating her into a "normal" life- this takes time and
I am very confident if we don't push things too much, too quickly, things will work out well.

I'm glad to hear you are doing fine with the tapering - I wish you all the best  !

[Rico]

Good to hear that there has been some improvement! I am so glad that your daughter didn't walk away with a cocktail of drugs that don't do anything to solve the underlying problem. I am finding an improvement since my 25% reduction, but there is some withdrawal anxiety. In my case, Zyprexa isn't working the way it used to, so an initial reduction did alleviate the negative side effects. I am not sure at this stage if my next reduction will be as large as I am really scared of withdrawal symptoms. As you mentioned though, the less time on the drugs the better too. I will seek advice from the forum when the time comes. For now, I am holding on 1.875mg. It gives me awful depression after I take it

[vjekob]

I would always follow the rule - "NEVER increase the dosage", so reduce
at increments that you can bear and halt for a while if you see things
have gotten worse as well as giving a little time to settle and side effects
to surface , but contrary to some advice, I would not wait weeks or months
for this settling time unless things have gotten really bad.

 

It's good that you see improvements with the
25% reduction - you must be on the right track. Not sure how long you
have been on the dose, but since it gives you such side effects after you
take it, and you are getting the dosage exactly measured via the chemist,
my gut feeling would tell me to try some small reductions eg 1% or 2%
with small halts to see if things get even better/faster.
Also, I am curious as to what you actually mean by "It gives me awful depression after I take it"

i.e. when do you take it ,how long does it take for the depression to manifest itself and
what exactly do you mean by "awful depression" ?

 

When I look at the 3 meds you take, I am also querying the dosage of the other two
meds you are not reducing at the moment. I have no experience with these meds nor
experience with possible interactions of the three meds, but I question the dosage
of the other two -  I could be talking crap here because of lack of knowledge, but
although olanzapine sticks out as the one to cut out first, maybe the other
two should be reduced a bit to reduce the overall symptoms - maybe someone else
can comment or maybe you have researched that already (take what I say with a
grain of salt - just trying to help)

 

 

[Rico]

Hi vjekob,

After I take the Zyprexa (currently 1.875mg), I just get really depresssd and feel very zoned out. My mood drops and I become very numb.

 

The other two meds also cause similar symptoms, but I have been advised here to focus on the zyprexa.

 

I am sick from all three drugs to be honest, but I really want to get off the zyprexa first.

 

I feel that the Epilim/Lithium are constantly keeping me tired and sedated.

 

Do you make a 1% change using a scale? How do you do that? Do you drop the fragments in water?

[vjekob]

I have a small plastic box in which I keep a nail file (which I sterilized and use for scraping/filing
tablets), old fashioned razor blade for cutting the tablets and left over tablet halves. I use a 3 digit scale i.e.
the digits then represent mg.. A 4 digit scale would be necessary to be
more precise as you don't know whether you are at the top or bottom of a mg., but
I cater for this by scraping/measuring till I get to a value I need then keep scraping
a bit more in case I need to be at the bottom of a mg. As the tablets are 5mg
olanzapine, I just cut them with the razor blade, use half and the other half I wrap in a small
piece of alu foil noting tablet weight on the foil, to use it for calculating the dosage
when I come to use that half of the tablet. If buying a scale, get one from a reputable
company - mine was under 80Euro off Amazon. I did buy a cheaper one (around 30Euro) but it had
a lot of drift and was basically useless. As the scale I use is not a
really professional lab scale (which could possibly do very low weight measurements),
I always use a weight of 5mg when weighing and then do tare weight
measurements of the tablet.

 

No, I don't do anything with liquids or crushing tablets as I feel this would add more complication to this business
and I can't measure so accurately with this scale anyway. Also, I am not so sure that the tablets
have the olanzapine evenly distributed in the tablet.
What I am actually doing with this whole process is using a set procedures which reduces the weight
in a set way and then I am not so concerned about the true olanzapine dosage - to me
I am just interested in following the same way of reducing and reducing with the help
of the scale which makes everything repeatable to a sufficient degree in small steps so that
I don't introduce unnecessary side effects. The tablet is cut, scraped and swallowed

 

You're probably right about reducing olanzapine first - it's just that those dosage figures in front of the
Epilem and Lithium somehow "scream" when I see them .

[vjekob]

My daughter has now been off drugs for several days. She has no problems
with light, sound or depression but we have another problem which may/may not
be related to coming off the drug and/or other psychological problems.
She is both pestering everyone (maybe I could describe it as a mini bullying for
want of better words) - she pinches everyone (including in places where she
shouldn't), kisses and generally annoys and is not afraid to use rude words.
When one tries to stop this, she gets agressive and pinches, hits with hands
and feet.

Unlike most of the people who are trying to get of drugs, who are trying
to follow advice of others and eg exercise and use other means to
help in getting better, I have an extremely tough situation where my
daughter doesn't listen to my advice.

Any ideas of what I could try to "mellow" her down so that we can
wait this out to ensure it is not due to getting off the drug ?
I would not want to give her to a hospital as we all know what they
would do there, but my wife and other daughter are going out of
their minds and have bruising to show. The only thing that comes to
mind would be to take her to a secluded place where she would
not have time for this but would need to work / cook and that
would also tire her out - don't know what to do.

[Altostrata]

Was she put on drugs because she was aggressive or behaved inappropriately?

 

If so, her personality problems are still problems. Can you find a counselor or therapist?

[vjekob]

Olanzapine was given after a nervous breakdown. There was some agression before the
nervous breakdown (but not towards people) but that I link to other psychological
problems (self confidence etc.) - which I agree, a therapist is absolutely needed for, the problem is that she
doesn't want to talk to a therapist. Other than exercise (which I can't get her to get
involved in ) which may assist ?

[rupa]

Hi vjekob,

How is your daughter doing?

How are you and family?

[vjekob]

Here's my last post to this forum - I would like to thank
everyone for all the help you have given my daughter
and me in getting off Olanzapine.

My daughter was diagnosed with cancer/Hodgkins Lymphoma
in January 2017. I believe Olanzapine and the terriable side
effects certainly played a role in triggering the cancer.
Yes, it was a devastating message at that time,
when we only knew what cancer meant from what pharma
and medicine portray to us. Nature has cures for cancer
unlike pharma and medicine who know only of masking
symptoms with "medicine" which is able to be patented
and sold.

My message to everyone is - don't be desensitized, the solutions
don't lie in human answers from a lab. Nature comes from
a Supernatural being - it holds the answers.
I now believe that depression, cancer and other illnesses are
all linked to a cause be it stress whatever form it may take(any time from age of birth),
toxicity, food (lack of vitamins and minerals and unhealthy processing
being some of the issues) as well as some sort of radiation.

Heal yourself emotionally (find a therapist who is in tune with nature,
also heal yourself with meditation - the mind can heal - something still
unexplained by medicine) and physically (check your glands, hormones,
vitamin and mineral deficiencies, take up some sport).
Believe in yourself and find your place on earth in tune with nature.

[rupa]

Dear vjekob

God bless your daughter.

[getofflex]

Linked post was moved from Symptoms and Self Care to this thread: 

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/13154-vjekob-getting-off-olanzapine-based-tablets/?do=findComment&comment=249746

 

Please keep all your posts about your own personal situation in this one thread, to reduce confusion and duplication of effort.  Thank you.  

[vjekob]

An email from this forum has prompted me to write an update post which
will hopefully help many people as I feel that I now know the real truth.
Firstly, I urge everyone to listen to advice from this forum about
tapering off whatever drug you're on and if you can afford it,find a psychiatrist who
knows alternative medicine -this will greatly help (I couldn't afford this).

Now, for the most important part (which you may not believe - like I didn't
at the beginning)  - besides trauma being one of the possible root causes of our problems,
the main cause is poisoning (heavy metals etc.) and impact
of virus activity which creates further neurotoxins. All answers can be
found by searching for information by Anthony William - the Medical Medium.
Parallel to tapering off drugs, work on your food and detoxification - you can
heal as the Medical Medium has all the answers.

 

[Altostrata]

Thanks, @vjekob How is your taper going?