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Dr Ken Gillman says Mirtazapine is not an anti depressant


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Research Dr. Ken Gillman saying that Mirtazapine (Remeron) is actually not an anti depressant.

 

Unbelievable.

 

I am just starting to taper from 7.5 mg and will experiment a little with the % that I cut to see how it feels.

 

 

I was prescribed Effexor 150 mg for 15 yrs ending 2014 when I titrated slowly down, using Prozac the last month to stop.  The whole titration took about 1 year.  I had been lowered to 75 mg Effexor for the last 3 yrs before the titration began.

I used the counting beads method, and gained great help from supplementling with  Prozac the last month. 

 

In Jan 2016 I began ingesting strong skunk weed, in the form of edibles, and then stopped abruptly July 1, 2016. My daily dose of weed was a dash (spoon size of the measuring spoon I have) daily.   My reaction was acute anxiety.  July 5th I was prescribed Remeron 7.5 mg in the evening and Xanax 1mg twice per day ... 

 

August 4th my Xanax was replaced by Clonazepam .5 mg twice per day as the goal was to titrate, using a longer

acting benzo.  Titration on Clonazepam is expected to begin August 10th.

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Thank you for posting this topic.

I am still on 45mg of mirtazapine. I was prescribed it 12 years ago as an antidote to the sexual dysfunction experienced from the prozac. It worked. I expect that I will be tapering from that at some point after I'm finished with the prozac withdrawals. I've done some reading of the scientific data on mirtazapine and I'm not sure how deeply it has gripped my brain. I hope not as much as the Prozac did. It seems to be a different breed for lack of a better vocabulary regarding these drugs. I think the prozac has been the real "masking" drug for my normal sense of feelings and responsible for my inability to really feel and process normal emotions.

Thank you again for posting this.

Mark

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I am coming off Mirtazapine as well.

If Mitrazapine is not an antidepressant, what is it?

DRUG HISTORY:

 

November 2013- Zoloft, ( Bad reaction).

January 2014 - March 2014 Seroquel.( Quit Cold Turkey).

January2014- Mirtazapine, I was taking 15mg at one stage, reduced to 7.5mg, Pgad reactions to Mirtazapine. Doctor kept increasing it to 37.5mg, until July 2014. No improvement, experiencing panic attacks, on 37.5 mg. I had enough by October 2014. Began tapering.

October 2014- Started tapering Mirtazapine from 37.5mg.

September 2015- Down to 4mg of Mirtazapine. Crashed.

September 16th- Up dosed to 5mg. Held this dose for almost 5 months. Stabilised.

February 2016- Began tapering again. From 5mg to 4.5mg of Mirtazapine. (Rocking the boat, again)! Lol. :(

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His explanation which is way above my pay grade.  :)

 

http://www.psychotropical.com/2-uncategorised/130-mirtazapine-tranylcypromine

 

No matter what he wants to call it, I still found it very hard to get of even with a slow taper.

 

CS

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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I am coming off Mirtazapine as well.

If Mitrazapine is not an antidepressant, what is it?

The doctor, who is well versed in this subject, calls it a simple, although strong anti histamine.....

I have been tapering this with big cuts, and feel ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.  The doctor is right.

I will continue to reduce slowly, just because it makes sense not to change anything abruptly,

but I can tell you having had a boat load of experience tapering off codeine, methadone and just in the

last month Xanax, which was by  far the worst, that Mirazapine is just what the doctor calls it: 

an antihistamine.

I was prescribed Effexor 150 mg for 15 yrs ending 2014 when I titrated slowly down, using Prozac the last month to stop.  The whole titration took about 1 year.  I had been lowered to 75 mg Effexor for the last 3 yrs before the titration began.

I used the counting beads method, and gained great help from supplementling with  Prozac the last month. 

 

In Jan 2016 I began ingesting strong skunk weed, in the form of edibles, and then stopped abruptly July 1, 2016. My daily dose of weed was a dash (spoon size of the measuring spoon I have) daily.   My reaction was acute anxiety.  July 5th I was prescribed Remeron 7.5 mg in the evening and Xanax 1mg twice per day ... 

 

August 4th my Xanax was replaced by Clonazepam .5 mg twice per day as the goal was to titrate, using a longer

acting benzo.  Titration on Clonazepam is expected to begin August 10th.

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His explanation which is way above my pay grade.   :)

 

http://www.psychotropical.com/2-uncategorised/130-mirtazapine-tranylcypromine

 

No matter what he wants to call it, I still found it very hard to get of even with a slow taper.

 

CS

If you read it carefully, he says it is an anti histamine.  I have found him to be exactly right as my

taper is going so smoothly, I don't feel ANY problems at all.....Refer to my response to hopeful for more.

I will say it does wonders at night to put one at ease and to sleep.  But it is a harmless antihistamine.

I was prescribed Effexor 150 mg for 15 yrs ending 2014 when I titrated slowly down, using Prozac the last month to stop.  The whole titration took about 1 year.  I had been lowered to 75 mg Effexor for the last 3 yrs before the titration began.

I used the counting beads method, and gained great help from supplementling with  Prozac the last month. 

 

In Jan 2016 I began ingesting strong skunk weed, in the form of edibles, and then stopped abruptly July 1, 2016. My daily dose of weed was a dash (spoon size of the measuring spoon I have) daily.   My reaction was acute anxiety.  July 5th I was prescribed Remeron 7.5 mg in the evening and Xanax 1mg twice per day ... 

 

August 4th my Xanax was replaced by Clonazepam .5 mg twice per day as the goal was to titrate, using a longer

acting benzo.  Titration on Clonazepam is expected to begin August 10th.

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His explanation which is way above my pay grade. :)

 

http://www.psychotropical.com/2-uncategorised/130-mirtazapine-tranylcypromine

 

No matter what he wants to call it, I still found it very hard to get of even with a slow taper.

 

CS

 

If you read it carefully, he says it is an anti histamine. I have found him to be exactly right as my

taper is going so smoothly, I don't feel ANY problems at all.....Refer to my response to hopeful for more.

I will say it does wonders at night to put one at ease and to sleep. But it is a harmless antihistamine.

That has not been everyone's experience. You have been on Mirtazapine for a very short period of time

Please note - I am not a medical practitioner and I do not give medical advice. I offer an opinion based on my own experiences, reading and discussion with others.On Effexor for 2 months at the start of 2005. Had extreme insomnia as an adverse reaction. Changed to mirtazapine. Have been trying to get off since mid 2008 with numerous failures including CTs and slow (but not slow enough tapers)Have slow tapered at 10 per cent or less for years. I have liquid mirtazapine made at a compounding chemist.

Was on 1.6 ml as at 19 March 2014.

Dropped to 1.5 ml 7 June 2014. Dropped to 1.4 in about September.

Dropped to 1.3 on 20 December 2014. Dropped to 1.2 in mid Jan 2015.

Dropped to 1 ml in late Feb 2015. I think my old medication had run out of puff so I tried 1ml when I got the new stuff and it seems to be going ok. Sleep has been good over the last week (as of 13/3/15).

Dropped to 1/2 ml 14/11/15 Fatigue still there as are memory and cognition problems. Sleep is patchy but liveable compared to what it has been in the past.

 

DRUG FREE - as at 1st May 2017

 

>My intro post is here - http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2250-dalsaan

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Thanks Dalsaan for precisely echoing my thoughts.

 

I was on that "harmless antihistamine"  :rolleyes: for years which caused horrific rebound insomnia when I tried to get off of it even with a very slow taper.  And of course, all the other cognitive issues that come with withdrawal.   And being on it caused weight gain and contributed to a hearing loss.

 

The only reason I didn't get dismissed from a temp job when I was trying to get off of this "harmless drug"  :rolleyes: was I had a very understanding supervisor.   

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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I started a sharp taper 8 weeks ago after I ran out. My Dad had a reserve supply of 15 mg tabs, which he takes for sleep. I started taking them when my 45mg tabs ran out. I began experiencing strong anxiety and increased emotional sensitivity, then increased my dose. I went back to my Dr. And got resupplied for 6 months. I quickly got back on them because they were exacerbating my Prozac withdrawal symptoms, which had began a steep increase of wave after wave of intense emotions. I will wait for months for the Prozac WD's to subside first then taper. My instincts tell me that Mirtazapine WDs', if I have them, will be milder and less intrusive. Although others have posted adverse reactions, I don't think my body is going to have as hard of a time as Prozac. I also benefit from the sedative side affect by taking it at bedtime, but like my prozac, I don't want my emotions and normal body sensations masked.

I like to feel what is going on inside me. I count it a blessing, even when the feelings are sadness or pain- that's normal to feel, just not necessarily in the measure that the WDs' are delivering. I have moments of more normal levels of emotional movements and they are often absolutely delightful to "feel," whereas before dropping the prozac and Klonazepam a felt disconnected from my emotions and they rarely surfaced unless in response to something very intense.

I guess it is safe to say that everyone is different in the way their body responds. My body is very sensitive to medications and it's own feelings, as I'm learning. The upside to increased sensitivity is that when I feel positive emotions like love, and connection to others, it is enriching rather than bland. I'm learning to be more and more open to the (so-called) negative emotions and realize that they too are necessary and go hand-in-hand with the positive emotions (Yen and Yang).

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Boardwalk, why is this meaningful to you? Do you think you're tapering an antihistamine?

 

You are tapering a drug with some action as an antihistamine and strong effect on the nervous system. Some people interpret these effects as antidepressant. Mirtazapine is widely prescribed as an antidepressant. FDA information about mirtazapine https://www.drugs.com/pro/mirtazapine-tablets.html

 

As others have noted above, a successful rate of taper is highly individual. When the taper is too precipitous, rebound insomnia can result, as well as other withdrawal symptoms typical of antidepressants: Surges of anxiety, nausea, depersonalization, dizziness, etc.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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I have been in protracted withdrawel for 3 years and I have just come of lyrica 75mg cold turkey as my doctor said that as I am getting no benifit from it we might as well stop it , and ibelieve it has set me back even further , believe it or not he has given me klonopine to help reduce the anxiety , but I am not going to take it , the thing is about mirtazapine wether he thinks they are a antidepressant or not I have reduced from 30mg to 15mg and it has been as bad as when I withdrew from Effexor , all these drugs effect the cns and when it is distabilized like ours , caution is always the best policy , I hope to get of Mirt as I hate it and I believe it is hampering my recovery , but I have always felt that it has had no effect on depression ,

100mg Effexor 2000 untill jan 2015 severe withdrawals . Tapered 4weeks.

Jan to end of Feb 4 weeks on 15mg mirtazapine 20mg quetiapine , tapered of both 2 weeks , severe withdrawals , still some from Effexor possibly

End of Feb 2015 to end of July 30mg citolapram tapered 2weeks severe withdrawal , anxiety high , bouts of sever depression , severe emotional moods

Currently on 30mg mirtazapine appx 5 months , high anxiety, March cut dose 22.5 mg going on to liquid still no improvements with the depression , also started sept 2015 200mg pregabalin , currently on 22.5mg mirtazapine tablet form doing really badly. Cut beginning of May remeron 20mg still bad anxiety,August 15mg remeron ,100mg pregablin , severe depression headaches anxiety , oct 2016 doctor stoped pregablin c/t , 15mg mirtazapine still no let up in physical symptoms ,high anxiety ,Nov 2016 remeron 13.5 mg , Jan 2017 mirtazapine stopped flouxetine20mg added by hospital admission, no choice , doing really badly , akathesia suicidel ,, Flouxetine c/t by hospital after 7 weeks 20mg daily , currently on nothing , God help me

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Boardwalk, why is this meaningful to you? Do you think you're tapering an antihistamine?

 

You are tapering a drug with some action as an antihistamine and strong effect on the nervous system. Some people interpret these effects as antidepressant. Mirtazapine is widely prescribed as an antidepressant. FDA information about mirtazapine https://www.drugs.com/pro/mirtazapine-tablets.html

 

As others have noted above, a successful rate of taper is highly individual. When the taper is too precipitous, rebound insomnia can result, as well as other withdrawal symptoms typical of antidepressants: Surges of anxiety, nausea, depersonalization, dizziness, etc.

This is meaningful to me because I have to taper off of it and having heard this news that Mirtazapine does not affect serotonin levels in the brain made all the difference to me.  Like they all say, everyone is different and I have been reducing by 10% daily and felt nothing.

My apologies if others experiencing difficulties.

I was prescribed Effexor 150 mg for 15 yrs ending 2014 when I titrated slowly down, using Prozac the last month to stop.  The whole titration took about 1 year.  I had been lowered to 75 mg Effexor for the last 3 yrs before the titration began.

I used the counting beads method, and gained great help from supplementling with  Prozac the last month. 

 

In Jan 2016 I began ingesting strong skunk weed, in the form of edibles, and then stopped abruptly July 1, 2016. My daily dose of weed was a dash (spoon size of the measuring spoon I have) daily.   My reaction was acute anxiety.  July 5th I was prescribed Remeron 7.5 mg in the evening and Xanax 1mg twice per day ... 

 

August 4th my Xanax was replaced by Clonazepam .5 mg twice per day as the goal was to titrate, using a longer

acting benzo.  Titration on Clonazepam is expected to begin August 10th.

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Just a note for future reference: Boardwalk is tapering mirtazapine quickly because he has been on the medication for only 4 weeks. This pace, 10% daily, is not recommended, and especially not recommended for anyone who has been on Remeron/mirtazapine for longer than 4 weeks.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.
1997-1999 Effexor; 2002-2005 Effexor XR 37.5 mg linear taper, dropping same #beads/week with bad results

Cymbalta 60 mg 2012 - 2015; 2016: 20 mg to 7 mg exact doses and dates in this post; 2017: 6.3 mg to  0.0 mg  Aug. 12; details here


scallywag's Introduction
Online spreadsheet for dose taper calculations and nz11's THE WORKS spreadsheet

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I have been in protracted withdrawel for 3 years and I have just come of lyrica 75mg cold turkey as my doctor said that as I am getting no benifit from it we might as well stop it , and ibelieve it has set me back even further , believe it or not he has given me klonopine to help reduce the anxiety , but I am not going to take it , the thing is about mirtazapine wether he thinks they are a antidepressant or not I have reduced from 30mg to 15mg and it has been as bad as when I withdrew from Effexor , all these drugs effect the cns and when it is distabilized like ours , caution is always the best policy , I hope to get of Mirt as I hate it and I believe it is hampering my recovery , but I have always felt that it has had no effect on depression ,

Lyrica is an anti seizure medication and is also used for pain.  It is not an anti depressant.

July Medications: Started taking antidepressants in 1981, also benzos off and on; antiphychotics , anti-seizure for years.   Trazodone, Lamotrigine, Klonopin for over 10 years   all at maximum dosages,:Disconcontinued Klonopin in month of February 2011,  discontinued Trazodone and Lamotrigine   in month of March 2011 while in hosptial.  Given Seroquel to "help" go off Klonopin  gradually increased to 600 mg ; doctor took me off 600 mg. Seroquel in two weeks, and switched to Resperidal  because of weight gain on Seroquel, went off Resperidal quickly,   then gradually reinstated  Seroquel to 600 mg. at my request.   Went off Seroquel by myself at 25mg. per month in 2014.     Last medication Seroquel completely off since May 2016. Also went off Morphine at the same time as last 25 mg. of Seroquel in May 2016. Started tapering Celexa 40mg. to 35mg.  on 11 Aug. 2016  ; 16 Oct. Celexa 32.5 mg.; 6 Nov. 2016:  30mg. , 50 mg abt. Feb 26 with occasional 30mg.  , : May 10, 2017 began tapering rapidly because of adverse reaction to Celexa;, 40 mg. Celexa;   May 24, 2017: 35mg Celexa.;  June 8, 2017, 30 mg. Celexa, June 22, 2017 25mg.Celexa,; July 6,2017 20mg. CELEXA, July 20: 15mg.; August 10: Sep 29 2017: 10mg. Celexa + 10mg. Prozac, 5 Oct, 2017:  5mg. Celexa + 10mg. Prozac.; Oct. 14 Celexa 0., Prozac 10mg.Took last Prozac on November 22, 2017, Jan. 31 30mg. Cymbalta........ May Cymbalta 90mg.

 

Supplements Cal/Mag , Potassium, , Multi Vitamin.  digestive aid, antioxidant

Medications presently taking:    Lyrica 150mg. 2x day  , Synthroid 175mcg, Nasonex 2 sprays each nostril, once a day ,     Tylenol  1,000 mg. 2x day., , Restasis eye drops 2x day,  Trazodone 100 mg, Cymbalta 90 mg. Arthrotec 50 mg., Plavix

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  • 1 month later...
InvisibleUnless

i dont understand three theories people have mentioned here so far, including the implications in the article under discussion:

 

1. serotonergic changes = antidepressant properties (or the converse, especially given the statistically insignificant clinical trial outcomes for SSRIs)

2. no strong affinity for serotonin receptors = "does not affect serotonin levels in the brain"

3. antihistamine = no worries about withdrawal syndrome

 

each of them is incorrect.  what we classify a medication as is not strictly based on binding activity or experiential results, and does not specify whether a withdrawal syndrome or rebound phenomena may occur during dose reductions or following complete cessation.  so, to clarify:

 

1. no particular focus or action "makes" something an antidepressant - that is strictly a marketing term and no chemical "antidepresses"

2. neurotransmitter activity is intermodulatory between receptor types and systems - histaminic action does not happen in a vacuum, isolated from everything else like serotonergic functioning

3. antihistamines as a class, most of which are very clearly psychotropic, can commonly involve withdrawal syndromes and neuropsychiatric rebound effects

 

as with any drugs, some people have an easier time quitting them than others.  we cannot generalize personal experiences to determine what others will experience, though they should serve as limited information on what can be experienced.  anyone wanting sources for these clarifications is free to make a request.  i am ever in the process of compiling a personal library, and cataloguing relevant links to medical journals.

from 2005-2012, i spent 7 years taking 17 different psychotropic medications covering several classes.  i would be taking 3-7 medications at a time, and 6 out of the 17 medications listed below were maxed or overmaxed in clinical dosage before i moved on to trying the next unhelpful cocktail.
 
antidepressants (SSRIs, SNRIs, NDRIs, tetracyclics): zoloft, wellbutrin, effexor, lexapro, prozac, cymbalta, remeron
antipsychotics (atypical): abilify, zyprexa, risperdal, geodon
sleep aids (benzos, off-label antidepressants & antipsychotics, hypnotics): seroquel, temazepam, trazodone, ambien
anxiolytics: buspar
anticonvulsants: topamax
 
i tapered off all psychotropics from late 2011 through early 2013, one by one.  since quitting, ive been cycling through severe, disabling withdrawal symptoms spanning the gamut of the serious, less serious, and rather worrisome side effects of these assorted medications.  previous cross-tapering and medication or dosage changes had also caused undiagnosed withdrawal symptoms.
 
brainpan addlepation

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I would not get too excited about this all ADs were based on an antihistamine... most or all as far as I know have anti histamine action which causes the histamine problems when you try to taper off.... also why I don't suggest using an antihistamine for sleep ect in wd ... I did it a couple of times after not sleeping 4 days that was my cut off point... after that I was nut house material... so chose 1/3 of a benadryl over hosp... and it worked I slept but always felt my overall withdrawal was pushed back by taking it. 

 

We have learned a lot since I did hard withdrawal 9 years ago... what surprises me some is a doctor did not know these drugs were all based on antihistamines so will have some of their effects... some of the time so many types now... 

 

from what I read when I was going thru it some people get addicted to antihistamines using them to get thru wd... just replacing one drug for another... 

peace

WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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  • 3 months later...

I'm just now wandering outside the Relationship forum.....  

 

This thing about these meds being "antihistamines"?  My husband has been complaining about his lips getting really red and sometimes full-face "flushing" (blushing) after he gets to work of a morning.  He's a bit embarrassed by it, so he's complained off-and-on about it.  I asked him when he first noticed this happening and it's around the same time-frame as when he started his w/d from Effexor.  I always just thought it was a coincidence.

 

Lips are not red before leaving for work.  He takes his very low amount of Effexor (approx. 9 mg) right before leaving for work.  After getting there, he notices red lips.  Could this possibly be related to Effexor w/d?

 

Thanks.

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  • 1 year later...
PabloHoney825

Yes, especially at the lower doses Mirtazpaine affects histamine receptors more than anything. However, as others have pointed out, changes with neurotransmitters don't happen in a vacuum. I had a horrific cold turkey off of mirtazpaine. I don't recommend a CT but I needed to get off of it after an adverse reaction to it after fluctuating my dosage with it. Up and down in dose just sensitized my CNS to it so when I took it after a few days off I ended up in the ER. Things settled a bit after until I took a 1st gen ANTIHISTAMINE (doxylamine) two weeks later which did the exact same thing again and really set me back- adrenaline surges, dysautonomic and cardiac issues, shaking, tremors,  parasthesia, constant limbic FEAR for months. I had to go on Klonopin and have been dealing with that slow taper ever since with it's own complications. I'm not even sure I'm completely healed from the mirtazapine withdrawal- although my symptoms seem to be more from benzo withdrawal now and slightly more subtle. I'm functioning (barely) and able to work so I'm thankful for that. 

 

I suggested something about my histamine receptors to two neurologists who tried to tell me I have an anxiety disorder I need to take care of. It was rather insulting, considering up until these two reactions and subsequent withdrawal, I regularly gave public speeches to large crowds of hundreds for work and never used to stress about anything. Now some days are merely surviving and I dread even a one-on-one with a client. Ironically, I'm a vocational rehabilitation counselor with graduate education in mental health counseling. 

 

I truly believe there's more to it with remeron/mirtazpaine withdrawal than just seretonic downregulation. It's an outside the box withdrawal.

 

I had another adverse reaction to Bentyl a week ago which set me back a little although not as severe. This could just be a sensitized CNS but perhaps it hit too close to home as an anticholinergic which mimicked some of what the anti-histamines did best--sedation . I'll never know what's really going on in my brain but I can say for sure that this has been hell. Be careful with mirtazapine or any psychotropic for that matter. 

1990s-early 2000s: On and off different AD medicines like Paxil, Zoloft, Prozac, and Lexapro.

2004: Klonopin .75-1 mg a day for anxiety.

2012: Started micro-taper off Klonopin. Used Benadryl or Doxylamine for sleep nightly. Melatonin. Ate clean and did exercise.

2014: Finished micro-taper with very little PAWS. No more Klonopin.  Started fish oil, probiotics, vitamins, and curcumin.  

November 2016: ADHD medicines: Vyvanse (60 mg), Dexedrine (15 mg), Adderall (15 mg), Desoxyn (20 mg) at various times, not at once.

March 2017: Mirtazapine 7.5 mg but immediately went up to 15 mg but then back down to 12, then 7.5 mg. For insomnia, not for depression. Melatonin too.

November 2017: Dropped to 3.75 mg Mirtazapine and eventually started taking it every other day or so.

 February 2018: Stopped 3.75 Mirtazapine after ER visit. Stabilized on Klonopin .125 mg as prepare to micro-taper again.Also stopped melatonin after a few years of use (5-20 mg a night). 

February 2019: One year later: The worst is over. Far from back to normal but 24/7 dread and fear adrenaline surges and suicidal ideation are done. Still anxiety, parasthesia, dysuatonomia, tinnitus, and minor insomnia but I'm also a year into my Klonopin taper down to .016 so much of this could be to that. I still have occasional feelings of unease (serotonin) but it's much better than 24/7 doom. I will have a success story and so will you! 

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mirtzapine is my last drug taper from a four year taper program off several drugs. My experiences with tapering haven't always been of the conventional variety. I tend to lean to the perspective that since these drugs have such a profound affect on me emotionally and energetically there is more I can do to help the movement to recovery with non scientific approaches. I have had strong emotional reactions that I have been able to moderate and flush through by using mindfulness practices. There- that's the plug for mindfulness practices. The mirtazapine has been as destabilizing to me as the other two anti depressants. Call it what you want; argue about the science, but the real proof is in the direct experience that any person has when coming off (this nasty ****)  period. My mirtazapine taper just recently went from 22.5 mg  to 16.5 mg. I see a noticeable increase in sensations and re-activeness. I don't retreat in my taper if things get intense, but I have (or did have) had a lot of trauma in my past that has had to be experienced and healed because the drugs have masked it for a long time. Real emotional charges not caused by the drugs. Whether you believe it or not doesn't matter. Some people have a lot of intense emotional energy latent beneath the masking that these drugs do. That may also explain the debate around mirtazapine. I count it a blessing when the intense emotions arise because I know it's my body returning to normal, and when it passes, I feel more connected. My feeling nature is coming back into alignment- the thing that most people have lost. And I may get flamed for saying this but: don't resist the sensations. Go into them, and give them some attention as something that wasn't allowed to be felt before so that it will pass through your body and clear medically, scientifically, and mindfully.

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I tapered off Mirtazipine with virtually no withdrawal symptoms. Lexapro not so much.

September 2014 to July 2015 - 20 mg Lexapro, 30mg Mirtazipine

 

August 2015 to November 2016- 10mg Lexapro, 30 mg Mirtazipine

 

Nov. 2016 to Nov. 2017 - 10mg Lexapro, 3.75 mg Mirtazipine

 

Nov. 2017 to Mach 2018 - 5mg/2.5mg Lexapro, 0mg Mirtazipne

 

Mach 2018 to Dec. 2018 - 0mg Lexapro, 0mg Mirtazipne

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Thanks for that input. I have had only mild symptoms since my most recent taper. Mild compared to what I have experienced from the stronger drugs.  I find that very encouraging for me. I will likely drop down to 5mg from 11mg soon, then wrap it up soon after that. So glad to be almost done. So glad you sailed through yours.

The acceptance of these drugs in our world represents a level of ignorance and irresponsibility that cannot yet be fathomed.

There is a Zen saying: to understand all is to forgive all. And of course: forgive them father for they know not what they do.

And my own version: unconsciousness cannot reveal unconsciousness.

Peace!!

Mark

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FarmGirlWorks
1 hour ago, AntiDFree said:

And my own version: unconsciousness cannot reveal unconsciousness.

Love this. I just am floored by how antidepressants are normalized by the dominant culture. I strive to become conscious and think others in my life are being educated along the way.

  • Prozac | late 2004-mid-2005 | CT WD in a couple months, mostly emotional
  • Sertraline 50-100mg | 11/2011-3/2014, 10/2014-3/2017
  • Sertraline fast taper March 2017, 4 weeks, OFF sertraline April 1, 2017
  • Quit alcohol May 20, 2017
  • Lifestyle changes: AA, kundalini yoga

 

"If you've seen a monster, even if it's horrible, that's evidence of divinity." – Damien Echols

 

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On 12/4/2016 at 12:29 PM, InvisibleUnless said:

i dont understand three theories people have mentioned here so far, including the implications in the article under discussion:

 

1. serotonergic changes = antidepressant properties (or the converse, especially given the statistically insignificant clinical trial outcomes for SSRIs)

2. no strong affinity for serotonin receptors = "does not affect serotonin levels in the brain"

3. antihistamine = no worries about withdrawal syndrome

 

each of them is incorrect.  what we classify a medication as is not strictly based on binding activity or experiential results, and does not specify whether a withdrawal syndrome or rebound phenomena may occur during dose reductions or following complete cessation.  so, to clarify:

 

1. no particular focus or action "makes" something an antidepressant - that is strictly a marketing term and no chemical "antidepresses"

2. neurotransmitter activity is intermodulatory between receptor types and systems - histaminic action does not happen in a vacuum, isolated from everything else like serotonergic functioning

3. antihistamines as a class, most of which are very clearly psychotropic, can commonly involve withdrawal syndromes and neuropsychiatric rebound effects

 

as with any drugs, some people have an easier time quitting them than others.  we cannot generalize personal experiences to determine what others will experience, though they should serve as limited information on what can be experienced.  anyone wanting sources for these clarifications is free to make a request.  i am ever in the process of compiling a personal library, and cataloguing relevant links to medical journals.

 

Great response. The original article seems to have been removed, but the premise was absurd.  No it’s not an SSRI (IIRC it’s a tetracyclic), and yes, it has strong antihistaminergic properties. However, it’s serotonin 2a/2c antagonism causes “antidepressant” effects. (Or at least serotonergic and downstream norepinephrine/dopamine changes).

 

Anecdotally, an acquaintance of mine tapered Mirtazapine quickly. She experienced most of the SSRI WD symptoms that I have from Paxil, although it was shorter lived and less severe. 

Medication before problems: Took Paxil 60-100mg from 2003 to 2014 for OCD.
1) Last pill taken November 2014, horrendous withdrawal started six weeks later.

2) Re-instated successfully @ 20mg May 2015, but accompanied by severe anhedonia, loss of emotion, apathy, and fatigue

3) Switched to Prozac, Viibyrd, Zoloft, Nefazadone, Cymbalta, Nardil in attempt at abating WD symptoms while not re-introducing anhedonia. Each one either failed to relieve WD or brought back anhedonia. So re-stabilized on Paxil at 15mg

4) Tapered down to 7.5mg as of October 2016. More energy, anhedonia/loss of emotions remains apart from short windows.

5) May 2017 - down to 3.5mg of Paxil (no other meds)
6) Early 2018 - added 8mg of Prozac
7) January 2019 - down to 1.05 Paxil / 5mg Prozac and continuing

8) October 2019 - down to 0.2mg Paxil / 3mg Prozac

9) November 2019 - down to 0.1mg Paxil / 3mg Prozac 

10) March 2020 - done with Paxil, 2.5mg Prozac

11) April 2021 - 0.03mg Prozac

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PabloHoney825
On 12/1/2018 at 1:54 AM, Henosis said:

 

Great response. The original article seems to have been removed, but the premise was absurd.  No it’s not an SSRI (IIRC it’s a tetracyclic), and yes, it has strong antihistaminergic properties. However, it’s serotonin 2a/2c antagonism causes “antidepressant” effects. (Or at least serotonergic and downstream norepinephrine/dopamine changes).

 

Anecdotally, an acquaintance of mine tapered Mirtazapine quickly. She experienced most of the SSRI WD symptoms that I have from Paxil, although it was shorter lived and less severe. 

Henosis, you said: Great response. The original article seems to have been removed, but the premise was absurd.  No it’s not an SSRI (IIRC it’s a tetracyclic), and yes, it has strong antihistaminergic properties. However, it’s serotonin 2a/2c antagonism causes “antidepressant” effects. (Or at least serotonergic and downstream norepinephrine/dopamine changes)."

 

Could the downstream norepinephrine/dopamine changes be why I had severe stimulation, nervousness,  and what could only be described as constant inner pressure and 
"adrenaline surges" as if I had an IV of coffee stuck in my arm 24/7 after I CTd mirtazapine? 

1990s-early 2000s: On and off different AD medicines like Paxil, Zoloft, Prozac, and Lexapro.

2004: Klonopin .75-1 mg a day for anxiety.

2012: Started micro-taper off Klonopin. Used Benadryl or Doxylamine for sleep nightly. Melatonin. Ate clean and did exercise.

2014: Finished micro-taper with very little PAWS. No more Klonopin.  Started fish oil, probiotics, vitamins, and curcumin.  

November 2016: ADHD medicines: Vyvanse (60 mg), Dexedrine (15 mg), Adderall (15 mg), Desoxyn (20 mg) at various times, not at once.

March 2017: Mirtazapine 7.5 mg but immediately went up to 15 mg but then back down to 12, then 7.5 mg. For insomnia, not for depression. Melatonin too.

November 2017: Dropped to 3.75 mg Mirtazapine and eventually started taking it every other day or so.

 February 2018: Stopped 3.75 Mirtazapine after ER visit. Stabilized on Klonopin .125 mg as prepare to micro-taper again.Also stopped melatonin after a few years of use (5-20 mg a night). 

February 2019: One year later: The worst is over. Far from back to normal but 24/7 dread and fear adrenaline surges and suicidal ideation are done. Still anxiety, parasthesia, dysuatonomia, tinnitus, and minor insomnia but I'm also a year into my Klonopin taper down to .016 so much of this could be to that. I still have occasional feelings of unease (serotonin) but it's much better than 24/7 doom. I will have a success story and so will you! 

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Interesting responses concerning the scientific details of mirtazapine. Regarding Henosis's comment about his friend; my experience tapering mirtazapine has been similar.

I will be initiating my final taper today and expect it to be as my last one. I will drop from 11mg to 5.5mg for 6 days, then drop to zero immediately. The last 50% taper from 22.5mg to 11mg happened 3 months ago (I was originally on 45mg). 2 weeks of WD with emotional surges and frequent crying jags that tapered off to zero over about 6 weeks.  I expect the same experiences this time. I'm not working and I walk about 8 to 10 miles a day. This will help move things along. You may ask: why not do a slower taper and avoid the strong emotional reactions? Answer: I have lots of stored trauma energies from early life that have been masked and suppressed by the anti-D's. That is an unavoidable phenomenon, and I have learned to welcome the emotional reactions without resistance, so they move through fairly fast without suffering, leaving ever more clarity. A necessary evil/blessing.

Whether mirtazapine is an SSRI or other does not matter to me. My subjective experience with it's use, and now non use is what guides my tapering choices. 

Also, the WD symptoms I have now are nothing compared to what I had coming off Prozac.

Best of luck to all!

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On 11/30/2018 at 10:54 PM, Henosis said:

Anecdotally, an acquaintance of mine tapered Mirtazapine quickly. She experienced most of the SSRI WD symptoms that I have from Paxil, although it was shorter lived and less severe.  

 

Good for her. We know there's a wide range of reaction to dosage reduction. Because your mythical friend might have gone off mirtazapine quickly, that doesn't mean that you or anybody else, such as AntiDFree, can quit and go scot-free.

 

Think about it, we wouldn't put so much effort into this Web site if it was easy for everyone to go off psychiatric drugs quickly.

 

Read this Tips for tapering off Remeron (mirtazapine)

 

 

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

Good for her. We know there's a wide range of reaction to dosage reduction. Because your mythical friend might have gone off mirtazapine quickly, that doesn't mean that you or anybody else, such as AntiDFree, can quit and go scot-free.

 

Think about it, we wouldn't put so much effort into this Web site if it was easy for everyone to go off psychiatric drugs quickly.

 

 

 

I never said it was quick. I've been at this for 4 years. I don't consider myself getting away with anything "scot-free." Nor am I trying to inappropriately influence anyone's decisions.

 

I specifically say in my signature that I don't suggest people taper like I have on Prozac. You may be Admin, but your out of line!

 

Edited by ChessieCat
left something out / extracted response
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My comment was directed to Henosis.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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45 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

My comment was directed to Henosis.

My user name is included in your comment directed to Henosis, therefore I have responded to that. In the system generated private email that was sent to me with the verbatim content of the post included your additional comments (not in the post) to me regarding you being personally offended by my post. That is totally inappropriate. Your personal feelings belong with you, and I am not responsible for them, and I repeat, nor is it appropriate for you to send them to me in a private email.

Apparently you take this all too personally and it is evident by your issuing me a warning along with the personal comments in the email, which were not included in the post.

Instead of me intentionally writing some inappropriate comments to get banned, as if my honest feelings aren't enough, (I'd rather take the high road) why don't you just do us both a favor and ban me now.  I obviously don't fit into your club!!! I regret ever posting here from the beginning!! Funny, now your cat face avatar looks a lot more sinister-Ha! oops...

 

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9 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

Good for her. We know there's a wide range of reaction to dosage reduction. Because your mythical friend might have gone off mirtazapine quickly, that doesn't mean that you or anybody else, such as AntiDFree, can quit and go scot-free.

 

Think about it, we wouldn't put so much effort into this Web site if it was easy for everyone to go off psychiatric drugs quickly.

 

Read this Tips for tapering off Remeron (mirtazapine)

 

 

 

Not sure where all the hostility is coming from, I was agreeing with the OP in principal that it is definitely an AD, just thought I’d mention an anecdotal experience from a (quite real) friend. Does it mean Remeron is easier to stop than SSRIs? Unlikely, just one data random point. Wasn’t trying to start an argument. 

Medication before problems: Took Paxil 60-100mg from 2003 to 2014 for OCD.
1) Last pill taken November 2014, horrendous withdrawal started six weeks later.

2) Re-instated successfully @ 20mg May 2015, but accompanied by severe anhedonia, loss of emotion, apathy, and fatigue

3) Switched to Prozac, Viibyrd, Zoloft, Nefazadone, Cymbalta, Nardil in attempt at abating WD symptoms while not re-introducing anhedonia. Each one either failed to relieve WD or brought back anhedonia. So re-stabilized on Paxil at 15mg

4) Tapered down to 7.5mg as of October 2016. More energy, anhedonia/loss of emotions remains apart from short windows.

5) May 2017 - down to 3.5mg of Paxil (no other meds)
6) Early 2018 - added 8mg of Prozac
7) January 2019 - down to 1.05 Paxil / 5mg Prozac and continuing

8) October 2019 - down to 0.2mg Paxil / 3mg Prozac

9) November 2019 - down to 0.1mg Paxil / 3mg Prozac 

10) March 2020 - done with Paxil, 2.5mg Prozac

11) April 2021 - 0.03mg Prozac

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It's not hostility on my part but frustration at being confronted for something unimportant except in the spirit of fear and a need to be controlling. That's obvious. I agree with your experience. Mine has been that Mirtazapine was easier to taper. That could help someone. We are adults here and should be able to express experiences and opinions that aren't scientific, but human. Doesn't matter to me because I'll be 86'd for expressing my opinion and posting my genuine experience.

Peace!!

 

Mark

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The staff puts a lot of effort into getting people to taper more gradually. Everybody wishes the process could be faster and easier. Nobody needs reminded that gradual tapering is tedious. We all know it.

 

Repeating stories of people who might have gone off quickly or simply quit cold turkey with few problems counters the mission of this site and makes the work of the staff that much harder.

 

As we endlessly explain, we advocate a more gradual taper here to minimize the risk of withdrawal symptoms, which we view as quite serious and potentially very long-term. You won't know whether taking a leap is easy or hard for you until you break a leg doing it.

 

Henosis, your casual remark from last November was taken by AntiDFree in January as confirmation of his own rather risky plan to quickly go off Remeron.

 

Most of the members here, as a matter of fact, come here after trying to go off a drug faster and running into trouble -- including with Remeron. AntiDFree, you might use search in the Introductions forum to see what happens when people take shortcuts to go off Remeron.

 

I don't want to be counseling yet another unnecessarily injured person. If you think this is controlling -- there's the door.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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13 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

The staff puts a lot of effort into getting people to taper more gradually. Everybody wishes the process could be faster and easier. Nobody needs reminded that gradual tapering is tedious. We all know it.

 

Repeating stories of people who might have gone off quickly or simply quit cold turkey with few problems counters the mission of this site and makes the work of the staff that much harder.

 

As we endlessly explain, we advocate a more gradual taper here to minimize the risk of withdrawal symptoms, which we view as quite serious and potentially very long-term. You won't know whether taking a leap is easy or hard for you until you break a leg doing it.

 

Henosis, your casual remark from last November was taken by AntiDFree in January as confirmation of his own rather risky plan to quickly go off Remeron.

 

Most of the members here, as a matter of fact, come here after trying to go off a drug faster and running into trouble -- including with Remeron. AntiDFree, you might use search in the Introductions forum to see what happens when people take shortcuts to go off Remeron.

 

I don't want to be counseling yet another unnecessarily injured person. If you think this is controlling -- there's the door.

 

 

Ah, I see. Makes sense now. I’m always advocating for the same, given the long road I’ve had since my first taper and all the evidence in support of the long, non-linear taper. After years of being embedded in this world, it’s easy to forget how an off hand remark can impact other readers.

 

I think my original comment was more of a wondering-out-loud about ADs with SRI activity versus those that are direct serotonin agonists/antagonists, and the impact that has on withdrawal severity/duration, if any.

 

Anyhow, thanks for the clarification. 👍

Medication before problems: Took Paxil 60-100mg from 2003 to 2014 for OCD.
1) Last pill taken November 2014, horrendous withdrawal started six weeks later.

2) Re-instated successfully @ 20mg May 2015, but accompanied by severe anhedonia, loss of emotion, apathy, and fatigue

3) Switched to Prozac, Viibyrd, Zoloft, Nefazadone, Cymbalta, Nardil in attempt at abating WD symptoms while not re-introducing anhedonia. Each one either failed to relieve WD or brought back anhedonia. So re-stabilized on Paxil at 15mg

4) Tapered down to 7.5mg as of October 2016. More energy, anhedonia/loss of emotions remains apart from short windows.

5) May 2017 - down to 3.5mg of Paxil (no other meds)
6) Early 2018 - added 8mg of Prozac
7) January 2019 - down to 1.05 Paxil / 5mg Prozac and continuing

8) October 2019 - down to 0.2mg Paxil / 3mg Prozac

9) November 2019 - down to 0.1mg Paxil / 3mg Prozac 

10) March 2020 - done with Paxil, 2.5mg Prozac

11) April 2021 - 0.03mg Prozac

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