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Downregulation and upregulation of receptors


Daveguy2015

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PLEASE NOTE:

 

4 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

Yes, we know chemicals can upregulate and downregulate receptors.

 

What a psychotropic has done to your receptors and nervous system is complex. It's not a simple matter of turning a switch on and off. We do not advise trying to correct the upregulation or downregulation with other drugs. Let them recover on their own.

 

 

_____________________________________________________________

 

Since ssri withdrawal causes low levels of serotonin in the brain, does your brain restore serotonin levels? and if so, how can you tell when your serotonin levels start to comeback to normal levels?

 

This question might seem silly but I need reassurance.

 

Edited by ChessieCat
added note

Ritalin (forgot the dosages), 95'-00'
Adderall 10mg for ADD, 00'- Jan 10'
Lexapro 10mg, August 10' - March 14'
Lexapro 15mg, March 14' - Sept 14'
Prozac 10mg, Sept 14' - October, 24th 14'
No meds since October 24th, 14'

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no the problem is not wit your serotonin but with with your receptor of serotonin who are desensitized 

they will not be as good as before but you there is high chance you improve to become without symptoms and basically normal

''I''took paxil for 30 days (did`nt felt  a lot of side effects when ''I'' stopped it)

after two weeks I developed the worst headache I ever felt (some sort of permanent migraine, tinnitus..).

after a month of headaches a decided to take another pill to see.I took a pill because i was thinking that it  was may be withdrawal and it caused me a what my doctor called `some thing like serotonin syndrome`` which never improved and caused me severe muscle problems...

in retrospect I know that it was not a serotonin syndrome , my receptor were very stimulated and reacted in weird ways

 

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Thank you for answering that question, tanit.

 

Adding serotonin to a downregulated system doesn't help. Let your serotonin receptors correct themselves.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Tanit, what makes you say the serotonin receptors won't be as good as they were before?

1988-2012: Prozac @ 60mg to treat an eating disorder. Several unsuccessful attempts to discontinue.Fall 2012: Failed attempt to discontinue then -> 40mg Prozac and added 150mg Wellbutrin.Late summer 2013:Began slower Prozac taper.Spring 2014:Got to 10mg Prozac, 75mg of Wellbutrin -April 2014: 9mg Prozac & 37.5mg Wellbutrin 2x/day -> 9mg Prozac & 25 mg Wellbutrin 2x/day->9mg Prozac 1x/day & ~8mg Wellbutrin 2x/day -> 8.1mg Prozac, 0 WellbutrinSept '14: 8.1mg Prozac -> crashed hardOct '14: 10mg ProzacNov '14: 20mg -> 30mgDec '14: 30mg, Feb 10: 27mg. Mar 7: 25mg Mar 21, 2015: 20mg. May 21, 2016: 20mg and holding strong.

 

My experience: http://rxisk.org/antidepressant-withdrawal-a-prozac-story/

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because they will diminish and be less sensitive then they were.it is a scientific fact and it why people have withdrawal syndrome

''I''took paxil for 30 days (did`nt felt  a lot of side effects when ''I'' stopped it)

after two weeks I developed the worst headache I ever felt (some sort of permanent migraine, tinnitus..).

after a month of headaches a decided to take another pill to see.I took a pill because i was thinking that it  was may be withdrawal and it caused me a what my doctor called `some thing like serotonin syndrome`` which never improved and caused me severe muscle problems...

in retrospect I know that it was not a serotonin syndrome , my receptor were very stimulated and reacted in weird ways

 

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Oh ok tanit I didn't realize that. And yes Addax that's a good question.

Ritalin (forgot the dosages), 95'-00'
Adderall 10mg for ADD, 00'- Jan 10'
Lexapro 10mg, August 10' - March 14'
Lexapro 15mg, March 14' - Sept 14'
Prozac 10mg, Sept 14' - October, 24th 14'
No meds since October 24th, 14'

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But Tanit are you saying that even after withdrawal syndrome is over the receptors still won't be as good?

Ritalin (forgot the dosages), 95'-00'
Adderall 10mg for ADD, 00'- Jan 10'
Lexapro 10mg, August 10' - March 14'
Lexapro 15mg, March 14' - Sept 14'
Prozac 10mg, Sept 14' - October, 24th 14'
No meds since October 24th, 14'

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So even after up regulating and the passage of time the receptors will remain desensitized? I just want to make sure I understand; You're saying some changes as a result of having taken ADs are permanent? Then recovery to baseline is neuroadaptivity rather than return to full function?

1988-2012: Prozac @ 60mg to treat an eating disorder. Several unsuccessful attempts to discontinue.Fall 2012: Failed attempt to discontinue then -> 40mg Prozac and added 150mg Wellbutrin.Late summer 2013:Began slower Prozac taper.Spring 2014:Got to 10mg Prozac, 75mg of Wellbutrin -April 2014: 9mg Prozac & 37.5mg Wellbutrin 2x/day -> 9mg Prozac & 25 mg Wellbutrin 2x/day->9mg Prozac 1x/day & ~8mg Wellbutrin 2x/day -> 8.1mg Prozac, 0 WellbutrinSept '14: 8.1mg Prozac -> crashed hardOct '14: 10mg ProzacNov '14: 20mg -> 30mgDec '14: 30mg, Feb 10: 27mg. Mar 7: 25mg Mar 21, 2015: 20mg. May 21, 2016: 20mg and holding strong.

 

My experience: http://rxisk.org/antidepressant-withdrawal-a-prozac-story/

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 Then recovery to baseline is neuroadaptivity rather than return to full function

saddly yes 

''I''took paxil for 30 days (did`nt felt  a lot of side effects when ''I'' stopped it)

after two weeks I developed the worst headache I ever felt (some sort of permanent migraine, tinnitus..).

after a month of headaches a decided to take another pill to see.I took a pill because i was thinking that it  was may be withdrawal and it caused me a what my doctor called `some thing like serotonin syndrome`` which never improved and caused me severe muscle problems...

in retrospect I know that it was not a serotonin syndrome , my receptor were very stimulated and reacted in weird ways

 

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Ok Tannit this is scary news. Are you saying that I won't feel as good as I did 6 years ago? I was only on AD's for 4 years.

Ritalin (forgot the dosages), 95'-00'
Adderall 10mg for ADD, 00'- Jan 10'
Lexapro 10mg, August 10' - March 14'
Lexapro 15mg, March 14' - Sept 14'
Prozac 10mg, Sept 14' - October, 24th 14'
No meds since October 24th, 14'

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you will feel as good but it might take take time so be patient .

don`t be scared and just try to enjoy your life to help your body recover

''I''took paxil for 30 days (did`nt felt  a lot of side effects when ''I'' stopped it)

after two weeks I developed the worst headache I ever felt (some sort of permanent migraine, tinnitus..).

after a month of headaches a decided to take another pill to see.I took a pill because i was thinking that it  was may be withdrawal and it caused me a what my doctor called `some thing like serotonin syndrome`` which never improved and caused me severe muscle problems...

in retrospect I know that it was not a serotonin syndrome , my receptor were very stimulated and reacted in weird ways

 

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Alright that's encouraging news. Thanks.

Ritalin (forgot the dosages), 95'-00'
Adderall 10mg for ADD, 00'- Jan 10'
Lexapro 10mg, August 10' - March 14'
Lexapro 15mg, March 14' - Sept 14'
Prozac 10mg, Sept 14' - October, 24th 14'
No meds since October 24th, 14'

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Then recovery to baseline is neuroadaptivity rather than return to full function

saddly yes

Then what accounts for people saying they have recovered? There are plenty of recovery stories and some people say they feel better than before meds.

 

I refuse to believe that full recovery isn't possible. Science really doesn't know much about the brain, so it's not possible to say that those neurotransmitters definitely can't come back as good as they were, especially if people are giving themselves the proper nutrition, rest, and care. Especially in the area of the brain, there has been a lot that science has thought was "fact" that has turned out to be inaccurate.

 

Tanit, I know you have a better grasp of brain science than the rest of us here, but don't forget that the errors of science are what landed all of us in this support group. So, it's perfectly well possible that science is in error when it says neurotransmitters can't heal.

 

No way is my body going to neuroadapt to being broken. Forget it. That's just not a thing I'm going to accept for my life. I was AMAZING before these meds and I'm not going to let what science thinks it knows take away my hope at being amazing again.

**I'm not a doctor and don't give medical advice, merely personal experience
***Off all meds since Nov. 2014. Mentally & emotionally recovered; physically not
-Dual cold turkeys off TCA & Ativan in Oct 2014. Prescribed from 2011-2014

-All meds were Rxed off-label for an autoimmune illness.  It was a MISDIAGNOSIS, but I did not find out until AFTER meds caused damage.  All med tapers/cold turkeys directed by doctors 

-Nortriptyline May 2012 - Dec 2013. Cold turkey off nortrip & cold switched to desipramine

-Desipramine Jan 2014 - Oct. 29, 2014 (rapid taper/cold turkey)

-Lorazepam 1 mg per night during 2011
-Lorazepam 1 mg per month in 2012 (or less)

-Lorazepam on & off, Dec 2013 through Aug 2014. Didn't exceed 3x a week

-Lorazepam again in Oct. 2014 to help get off of desipramine. Last dose lzpam was 1 mg, Nov. 2, 2014. Immediate paradoxical reactions to benzos after stopping TCAs 

-First muscle/dystonia side effects started on nortriptyline, but docs too stupid to figure it out. On desipramine, muscle tremors & rigidity worsened

-Two weeks after I got off all meds, I developed full-blown TD.  Tardive dystonia, dyskinesia, myoclonic jerks ALL over body, ribcage wiggles, facial tics, twitching tongue & fingers, tremors/twitches of arms, legs, cognitive impairment, throat muscles semi-paralyzed & unable to swallow solid food, brain zaps, ears ring, dizzy, everything looks too far away, insomnia, numbness & electric shocks everywhere when I try to fall asleep, jerk awake from sleep with big, gasping breaths, wake with terrors & tremors, severely depressed.  NO HISTORY OF DEPRESSION, EVER. Meds CREATED it.

-Month 7: hair falling out; no vision improvement; still tardive dystonia; facial & tongue tics returned
-Month 8: back to acute, incl. Grand Mal seizure-like episodes. New mental torment, PGAD, worse insomnia
-Month 9: tardive dystonia worse, dyskinesia returned. Unable to breathe well due to dystonia in stomach, chest, throat
-Month 13: Back to acute, brain zaps back, developed eczema & stomach problems. Left leg no longer works right due to dystonia, meaning both legs now damaged
-4 years off: Huge improvements, incl. improved dystonia

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There are many routes to serotonergic adaptation, even if receptors do not fully recover -- which they tend to do -- the rest of your system will compensate.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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There are many routes to serotonergic adaptation, even if receptors do not fully recover -- which they tend to do -- the rest of your system will compensate.

When the neurotransmitters adapt, will I began to feel energy again and happiness? Right now I have these brief short moments where I feel happiness, I'm laughing, I feel confident again about recovery, and my mood lifts. I know this is described as a window but what do you think causes these moments? Is this more receptors coming online? Is this a good sign for recovery?

 

P.s. I also notice my memory is much better. I can remember childhood memories more vividly.

 

Thanks

Ritalin (forgot the dosages), 95'-00'
Adderall 10mg for ADD, 00'- Jan 10'
Lexapro 10mg, August 10' - March 14'
Lexapro 15mg, March 14' - Sept 14'
Prozac 10mg, Sept 14' - October, 24th 14'
No meds since October 24th, 14'

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There are many routes to serotonergic adaptation, even if receptors do not fully recover -- which they tend to do -- the rest of your system will compensate.

When the neurotransmitters adapt, will I began to feel energy again and happiness? Right now I have these brief short moments where I feel happiness, I'm laughing, I feel confident again about recovery, and my mood lifts. I know this is described as a window but what do you think causes these moments? Is this more receptors coming online? Is this a good sign for recovery?

 

P.s. I also notice my memory is much better. I can remember childhood memories more vividly.

 

Thanks

 

 

I think it's a good sign for recovery, for sure!

**I'm not a doctor and don't give medical advice, merely personal experience
***Off all meds since Nov. 2014. Mentally & emotionally recovered; physically not
-Dual cold turkeys off TCA & Ativan in Oct 2014. Prescribed from 2011-2014

-All meds were Rxed off-label for an autoimmune illness.  It was a MISDIAGNOSIS, but I did not find out until AFTER meds caused damage.  All med tapers/cold turkeys directed by doctors 

-Nortriptyline May 2012 - Dec 2013. Cold turkey off nortrip & cold switched to desipramine

-Desipramine Jan 2014 - Oct. 29, 2014 (rapid taper/cold turkey)

-Lorazepam 1 mg per night during 2011
-Lorazepam 1 mg per month in 2012 (or less)

-Lorazepam on & off, Dec 2013 through Aug 2014. Didn't exceed 3x a week

-Lorazepam again in Oct. 2014 to help get off of desipramine. Last dose lzpam was 1 mg, Nov. 2, 2014. Immediate paradoxical reactions to benzos after stopping TCAs 

-First muscle/dystonia side effects started on nortriptyline, but docs too stupid to figure it out. On desipramine, muscle tremors & rigidity worsened

-Two weeks after I got off all meds, I developed full-blown TD.  Tardive dystonia, dyskinesia, myoclonic jerks ALL over body, ribcage wiggles, facial tics, twitching tongue & fingers, tremors/twitches of arms, legs, cognitive impairment, throat muscles semi-paralyzed & unable to swallow solid food, brain zaps, ears ring, dizzy, everything looks too far away, insomnia, numbness & electric shocks everywhere when I try to fall asleep, jerk awake from sleep with big, gasping breaths, wake with terrors & tremors, severely depressed.  NO HISTORY OF DEPRESSION, EVER. Meds CREATED it.

-Month 7: hair falling out; no vision improvement; still tardive dystonia; facial & tongue tics returned
-Month 8: back to acute, incl. Grand Mal seizure-like episodes. New mental torment, PGAD, worse insomnia
-Month 9: tardive dystonia worse, dyskinesia returned. Unable to breathe well due to dystonia in stomach, chest, throat
-Month 13: Back to acute, brain zaps back, developed eczema & stomach problems. Left leg no longer works right due to dystonia, meaning both legs now damaged
-4 years off: Huge improvements, incl. improved dystonia

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Wiggling & Daveguy:

 

The brain has a remarkable ability to adapt and adjust and does it throughout or lives, ADs or not. This neuroadaptivity is important to our survival (whether we're cavemen or Wall Street brokers). Essentially our brain's goal is to return to the best possible state and functioning. Very simply put, if there's a part that's injured or weak other parts will likely step in to compensate or simply takeover. Our brain does it all the time. I don't like the way it sounds either. That somehow our brains are permanently damaged. But in reality, our brain will simply adapt, pull from its resources and those parts that were damaged essentially become obsolete because something else is doing their job.

 

Alto, for clarification: when you wrote "which they tend to do" do you mean they tend to regain full function or they tend NOT to. I think I read what you wrote too many times.

1988-2012: Prozac @ 60mg to treat an eating disorder. Several unsuccessful attempts to discontinue.Fall 2012: Failed attempt to discontinue then -> 40mg Prozac and added 150mg Wellbutrin.Late summer 2013:Began slower Prozac taper.Spring 2014:Got to 10mg Prozac, 75mg of Wellbutrin -April 2014: 9mg Prozac & 37.5mg Wellbutrin 2x/day -> 9mg Prozac & 25 mg Wellbutrin 2x/day->9mg Prozac 1x/day & ~8mg Wellbutrin 2x/day -> 8.1mg Prozac, 0 WellbutrinSept '14: 8.1mg Prozac -> crashed hardOct '14: 10mg ProzacNov '14: 20mg -> 30mgDec '14: 30mg, Feb 10: 27mg. Mar 7: 25mg Mar 21, 2015: 20mg. May 21, 2016: 20mg and holding strong.

 

My experience: http://rxisk.org/antidepressant-withdrawal-a-prozac-story/

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Wiggling & Daveguy:

 

The brain has a remarkable ability to adapt and adjust and does it throughout or lives, ADs or not. This neuroadaptivity is important to our survival (whether we're cavemen or Wall Street brokers). Essentially our brain's goal is to return to the best possible state and functioning. Very simply put, if there's a part that's injured or weak other parts will likely step in to compensate or simply takeover. Our brain does it all the time. I don't like the way it sounds either. That somehow our brains are permanently damaged. But in reality, our brain will simply adapt, pull from its resources and those parts that were damaged essentially become obsolete because something else is doing their job.

 

Alto, for clarification: when you wrote "which they tend to do" do you mean they tend to regain full function or they tend NOT to. I think I read what you wrote too many times.

 

I'm glad you asked that question of Alto, because I wondered the same thing.  I think she meant they DO tend to repair.

**I'm not a doctor and don't give medical advice, merely personal experience
***Off all meds since Nov. 2014. Mentally & emotionally recovered; physically not
-Dual cold turkeys off TCA & Ativan in Oct 2014. Prescribed from 2011-2014

-All meds were Rxed off-label for an autoimmune illness.  It was a MISDIAGNOSIS, but I did not find out until AFTER meds caused damage.  All med tapers/cold turkeys directed by doctors 

-Nortriptyline May 2012 - Dec 2013. Cold turkey off nortrip & cold switched to desipramine

-Desipramine Jan 2014 - Oct. 29, 2014 (rapid taper/cold turkey)

-Lorazepam 1 mg per night during 2011
-Lorazepam 1 mg per month in 2012 (or less)

-Lorazepam on & off, Dec 2013 through Aug 2014. Didn't exceed 3x a week

-Lorazepam again in Oct. 2014 to help get off of desipramine. Last dose lzpam was 1 mg, Nov. 2, 2014. Immediate paradoxical reactions to benzos after stopping TCAs 

-First muscle/dystonia side effects started on nortriptyline, but docs too stupid to figure it out. On desipramine, muscle tremors & rigidity worsened

-Two weeks after I got off all meds, I developed full-blown TD.  Tardive dystonia, dyskinesia, myoclonic jerks ALL over body, ribcage wiggles, facial tics, twitching tongue & fingers, tremors/twitches of arms, legs, cognitive impairment, throat muscles semi-paralyzed & unable to swallow solid food, brain zaps, ears ring, dizzy, everything looks too far away, insomnia, numbness & electric shocks everywhere when I try to fall asleep, jerk awake from sleep with big, gasping breaths, wake with terrors & tremors, severely depressed.  NO HISTORY OF DEPRESSION, EVER. Meds CREATED it.

-Month 7: hair falling out; no vision improvement; still tardive dystonia; facial & tongue tics returned
-Month 8: back to acute, incl. Grand Mal seizure-like episodes. New mental torment, PGAD, worse insomnia
-Month 9: tardive dystonia worse, dyskinesia returned. Unable to breathe well due to dystonia in stomach, chest, throat
-Month 13: Back to acute, brain zaps back, developed eczema & stomach problems. Left leg no longer works right due to dystonia, meaning both legs now damaged
-4 years off: Huge improvements, incl. improved dystonia

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The receptors tend to upregulate towards a normal pattern. Repopulate is the same thing.

 

tanit, please supply citations for what you're saying. Links to Pubmed abstracts, with the abstracts copied here, would be appreciated.

 

If you have full text for those studies, please post them in the Journals forum.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Thank you, Alto. That's what I thought you meant, and that's what I was I understood to be the case... Just a bit on the busy and 'too lazy to look it up' side of things today.

1988-2012: Prozac @ 60mg to treat an eating disorder. Several unsuccessful attempts to discontinue.Fall 2012: Failed attempt to discontinue then -> 40mg Prozac and added 150mg Wellbutrin.Late summer 2013:Began slower Prozac taper.Spring 2014:Got to 10mg Prozac, 75mg of Wellbutrin -April 2014: 9mg Prozac & 37.5mg Wellbutrin 2x/day -> 9mg Prozac & 25 mg Wellbutrin 2x/day->9mg Prozac 1x/day & ~8mg Wellbutrin 2x/day -> 8.1mg Prozac, 0 WellbutrinSept '14: 8.1mg Prozac -> crashed hardOct '14: 10mg ProzacNov '14: 20mg -> 30mgDec '14: 30mg, Feb 10: 27mg. Mar 7: 25mg Mar 21, 2015: 20mg. May 21, 2016: 20mg and holding strong.

 

My experience: http://rxisk.org/antidepressant-withdrawal-a-prozac-story/

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  • Moderator

The receptors tend to upregulate towards a normal pattern. Repopulate is the same thing.

 

tanit, please supply citations for what you're saying. Links to Pubmed abstracts, with the abstracts copied here, would be appreciated.

 

If you have full text for those studies, please post them in the Journals forum.

Even with TCAs, Alto?

**I'm not a doctor and don't give medical advice, merely personal experience
***Off all meds since Nov. 2014. Mentally & emotionally recovered; physically not
-Dual cold turkeys off TCA & Ativan in Oct 2014. Prescribed from 2011-2014

-All meds were Rxed off-label for an autoimmune illness.  It was a MISDIAGNOSIS, but I did not find out until AFTER meds caused damage.  All med tapers/cold turkeys directed by doctors 

-Nortriptyline May 2012 - Dec 2013. Cold turkey off nortrip & cold switched to desipramine

-Desipramine Jan 2014 - Oct. 29, 2014 (rapid taper/cold turkey)

-Lorazepam 1 mg per night during 2011
-Lorazepam 1 mg per month in 2012 (or less)

-Lorazepam on & off, Dec 2013 through Aug 2014. Didn't exceed 3x a week

-Lorazepam again in Oct. 2014 to help get off of desipramine. Last dose lzpam was 1 mg, Nov. 2, 2014. Immediate paradoxical reactions to benzos after stopping TCAs 

-First muscle/dystonia side effects started on nortriptyline, but docs too stupid to figure it out. On desipramine, muscle tremors & rigidity worsened

-Two weeks after I got off all meds, I developed full-blown TD.  Tardive dystonia, dyskinesia, myoclonic jerks ALL over body, ribcage wiggles, facial tics, twitching tongue & fingers, tremors/twitches of arms, legs, cognitive impairment, throat muscles semi-paralyzed & unable to swallow solid food, brain zaps, ears ring, dizzy, everything looks too far away, insomnia, numbness & electric shocks everywhere when I try to fall asleep, jerk awake from sleep with big, gasping breaths, wake with terrors & tremors, severely depressed.  NO HISTORY OF DEPRESSION, EVER. Meds CREATED it.

-Month 7: hair falling out; no vision improvement; still tardive dystonia; facial & tongue tics returned
-Month 8: back to acute, incl. Grand Mal seizure-like episodes. New mental torment, PGAD, worse insomnia
-Month 9: tardive dystonia worse, dyskinesia returned. Unable to breathe well due to dystonia in stomach, chest, throat
-Month 13: Back to acute, brain zaps back, developed eczema & stomach problems. Left leg no longer works right due to dystonia, meaning both legs now damaged
-4 years off: Huge improvements, incl. improved dystonia

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Do diabetes(type2) disappear when people  have a healthy diet ?

NO 

They will improve and their improvement will depend on how damaged they are but to return like they were before is simply not possible

(I can`t afford to give myself false hope about my damaged body because Iwant to find a solution to my problems which are really debilitating to me)

I would be dancing if I know that full 100% return to normal(in term of signaling) not in term of how you feel is possible .to me which have been greatly damaged I know it won`t go on it own 

may be you will be luckier than me since you don`t have physical problems 

''I''took paxil for 30 days (did`nt felt  a lot of side effects when ''I'' stopped it)

after two weeks I developed the worst headache I ever felt (some sort of permanent migraine, tinnitus..).

after a month of headaches a decided to take another pill to see.I took a pill because i was thinking that it  was may be withdrawal and it caused me a what my doctor called `some thing like serotonin syndrome`` which never improved and caused me severe muscle problems...

in retrospect I know that it was not a serotonin syndrome , my receptor were very stimulated and reacted in weird ways

 

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Tanit, I'm completely crippled by physical symptoms, probably worse than anybody else on this site right now. I can only swallow liquids and I can't walk. If I am correct, you have said you are attending school. Please be grateful for that.

 

I understand that you are using scientific information to aid your understanding of what has happened to our bodies, but please don't use science to take away our hope. There ARE recovery stories and there are miracles that science can't explain. I urge you to read the recovery success section on this website.

 

Alto, Tanit begs a question I have been wondering about my own recovery. How will my autonomic nervous system re-regulate in my involuntary functions? I saw amitriptyline on a terrible list of meds on this site saying that it causes nervous system dysregulation. What is the difference between neurotransmitters being messed up versus nervous system dysregulation? And what is the difference between their recoveries?

**I'm not a doctor and don't give medical advice, merely personal experience
***Off all meds since Nov. 2014. Mentally & emotionally recovered; physically not
-Dual cold turkeys off TCA & Ativan in Oct 2014. Prescribed from 2011-2014

-All meds were Rxed off-label for an autoimmune illness.  It was a MISDIAGNOSIS, but I did not find out until AFTER meds caused damage.  All med tapers/cold turkeys directed by doctors 

-Nortriptyline May 2012 - Dec 2013. Cold turkey off nortrip & cold switched to desipramine

-Desipramine Jan 2014 - Oct. 29, 2014 (rapid taper/cold turkey)

-Lorazepam 1 mg per night during 2011
-Lorazepam 1 mg per month in 2012 (or less)

-Lorazepam on & off, Dec 2013 through Aug 2014. Didn't exceed 3x a week

-Lorazepam again in Oct. 2014 to help get off of desipramine. Last dose lzpam was 1 mg, Nov. 2, 2014. Immediate paradoxical reactions to benzos after stopping TCAs 

-First muscle/dystonia side effects started on nortriptyline, but docs too stupid to figure it out. On desipramine, muscle tremors & rigidity worsened

-Two weeks after I got off all meds, I developed full-blown TD.  Tardive dystonia, dyskinesia, myoclonic jerks ALL over body, ribcage wiggles, facial tics, twitching tongue & fingers, tremors/twitches of arms, legs, cognitive impairment, throat muscles semi-paralyzed & unable to swallow solid food, brain zaps, ears ring, dizzy, everything looks too far away, insomnia, numbness & electric shocks everywhere when I try to fall asleep, jerk awake from sleep with big, gasping breaths, wake with terrors & tremors, severely depressed.  NO HISTORY OF DEPRESSION, EVER. Meds CREATED it.

-Month 7: hair falling out; no vision improvement; still tardive dystonia; facial & tongue tics returned
-Month 8: back to acute, incl. Grand Mal seizure-like episodes. New mental torment, PGAD, worse insomnia
-Month 9: tardive dystonia worse, dyskinesia returned. Unable to breathe well due to dystonia in stomach, chest, throat
-Month 13: Back to acute, brain zaps back, developed eczema & stomach problems. Left leg no longer works right due to dystonia, meaning both legs now damaged
-4 years off: Huge improvements, incl. improved dystonia

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I never said you won`t be like before. You will good and you won`t feel any change but at the cellular level there will some change which is ok .

''I''took paxil for 30 days (did`nt felt  a lot of side effects when ''I'' stopped it)

after two weeks I developed the worst headache I ever felt (some sort of permanent migraine, tinnitus..).

after a month of headaches a decided to take another pill to see.I took a pill because i was thinking that it  was may be withdrawal and it caused me a what my doctor called `some thing like serotonin syndrome`` which never improved and caused me severe muscle problems...

in retrospect I know that it was not a serotonin syndrome , my receptor were very stimulated and reacted in weird ways

 

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Yes, receptors correct themselves after TCAs, after every type of drug. Adaptation is part of their job description.

 

WiggleIt, autonomic dysregulation is at the core of many withdrawal symptoms. See Dysautonomia (autonomic dysregulation)

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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Alto when receptors correct themselves does that mean your symptoms get better? Like the anxiety, low mood, and dp

Ritalin (forgot the dosages), 95'-00'
Adderall 10mg for ADD, 00'- Jan 10'
Lexapro 10mg, August 10' - March 14'
Lexapro 15mg, March 14' - Sept 14'
Prozac 10mg, Sept 14' - October, 24th 14'
No meds since October 24th, 14'

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@wigglet

I am thinking of trying something that might help me reverse my intestine paralysis.It may take some time(months) to find a researcher to help me but if it works I will tell about it . 

''I''took paxil for 30 days (did`nt felt  a lot of side effects when ''I'' stopped it)

after two weeks I developed the worst headache I ever felt (some sort of permanent migraine, tinnitus..).

after a month of headaches a decided to take another pill to see.I took a pill because i was thinking that it  was may be withdrawal and it caused me a what my doctor called `some thing like serotonin syndrome`` which never improved and caused me severe muscle problems...

in retrospect I know that it was not a serotonin syndrome , my receptor were very stimulated and reacted in weird ways

 

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But Tanit are you saying that even after withdrawal syndrome is over the receptors still won't be as good?

 

 

So even after up regulating and the passage of time the receptors will remain desensitized? I just want to make sure I understand; You're saying some changes as a result of having taken ADs are permanent? Then recovery to baseline is neuroadaptivity rather than return to full function?

 

 

 Then recovery to baseline is neuroadaptivity rather than return to full function

saddly yes 

 

I am pretty sure that we don't actually have that information. I could be wrong, but to the best of my knowledge, studies of what exactly happens in the brain on these drugs, and what exactly happens during withdrawal, and what exactly happens after coming off them, have not been done. That's the problem, nobody's really studying the long term effects of psych drugs and withdrawal. It's hugely frustrating, but since in the system we have the studies are paid for by the drug companies, they don't want to draw attention to any problems with their wonderful drug$.

 

Alto or somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Tanit, if those studies do exist (showing long term adaptive changes that never reverse after long term use of psych meds) please post citations to them. If it's just your opinion (and there's nothing wrong with that) then please be clear about that. This is really scary stuff for people, especially in the throes of withdrawal, so let's not claim to be certain about things we really can't be certain about.

 

In general I do think a brain that was on psych drugs for 20 plus years (like mine) will never be the same as it would have been without the drugs, but my own experience with my very long taper is that normalizing changes seem to be ongoing over time, and I expect that the normalizing process will go on for as long as my body is healthy enough to keep doing it, both during my taper and long after. That's opinion and best guess, of course.

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

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I've hunted for that information for a long time. I had a long e-mail exchange with Robert Whitaker, Paul Andrews, and Giovanni Fava about it once. Drs. Andrews and Fava were of the opinion the serotonin receptors re-adapt and upregulate.
 
Years ago, a psychiatrist told me there were rodent studies showing that the serotonin receptors upregulate. I have been unable to find those studies. Perhaps tanit can find them and others.
 
In the meantime, there's the work of Brian Harvey:
 
Harvey, 2003 Neurobiology of antidepressant withdrawal
 
Harvey, 2014 New insights on antidepressant discontinuation syndrome (thank you, dalsaan -- I've requested the full text from the author)
 

and What is withdrawal syndrome? , which anyone reading this topic should also read.

 

daveguy, withdrawal syndrome is not restricted to the downregulated serotonin receptors. Because they're not functioning properly as sensors, the rest of your nervous system is thrown off, particularly the autonomic functions.

 

It's as though your nervous system was an orchestra, but the string section is out of tune. This causes disharmony throughout the entire symphony.

 

You probably will still experience waves and windows of symptoms that change over time even after your serotonin receptors have upregulated because the rest of your nervous system also has to get back on track. That is why you have waves and windows -- a complex system is struggling to fix itself. It improves a bit, then falls back, improves a bit, then falls back -- gradually getting to a place where it's working in harmony again.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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There are many routes to serotonergic adaptation, even if receptors do not fully recover -- which they tend to do -- the rest of your system will compensate.

 

When the neurotransmitters adapt, will I began to feel energy again and happiness? Right now I have these brief short moments where I feel happiness, I'm laughing, I feel confident again about recovery, and my mood lifts. I know this is described as a window but what do you think causes these moments? Is this more receptors coming online? Is this a good sign for recovery?

P.s. I also notice my memory is much better. I can remember childhood memories more vividly.

Thanks

 

I think it's a good sign for recovery, for sure!

And to add, the recovery is a journey rather than effect...

- 30.09.2020- reduced doxepin to 125mg, 16.10.2020- 100mg, 6.11.2020- 75mg

- May 2020, omeprazole 40mg switched to esomeprazole 20mg

- 2012 re-started Doxepin 75mg, evening. Increased to 150mg

- 2012, Atenolol 25mg, twice a day

- 2016, Low dose of HRT in evening, Sandrena and Utrogestan 

- Long terms of Nasal spray Otrivine

- 2012, PPI Omeprazole 40mg-evening

24.10.2014- Started ESCITALOPRAM-first 5mg and then 10mg; due to the adverse symptoms reduced on 5.01.2015- Escitalopram- 2.5mg 22.07.2016- re-started reduction by 1% at a time. Completed tappering on  19.03.2020 😇

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daveguy, withdrawal syndrome is not restricted to the downregulated serotonin receptors. Because they're not functioning properly as sensors, the rest of your nervous system is thrown off, particularly the autonomic functions.

 

It's as though your nervous system was an orchestra, but the string section is out of tune. This causes disharmony throughout the entire symphony.

 

You probably will still experience waves and windows of symptoms that change over time even after your serotonin receptors have upregulated because the rest of your nervous system also has to get back on track. That is why you have waves and windows -- a complex system is struggling to fix itself. It improves a bit, then falls back, improves a bit, then falls back -- gradually getting to a place where it's working in harmony again.

Love this. Especially the orchestra analogy, Alto. I hope you don't mind me sticking it in 'The best of SA' thread.

1988-2012: Prozac @ 60mg to treat an eating disorder. Several unsuccessful attempts to discontinue.Fall 2012: Failed attempt to discontinue then -> 40mg Prozac and added 150mg Wellbutrin.Late summer 2013:Began slower Prozac taper.Spring 2014:Got to 10mg Prozac, 75mg of Wellbutrin -April 2014: 9mg Prozac & 37.5mg Wellbutrin 2x/day -> 9mg Prozac & 25 mg Wellbutrin 2x/day->9mg Prozac 1x/day & ~8mg Wellbutrin 2x/day -> 8.1mg Prozac, 0 WellbutrinSept '14: 8.1mg Prozac -> crashed hardOct '14: 10mg ProzacNov '14: 20mg -> 30mgDec '14: 30mg, Feb 10: 27mg. Mar 7: 25mg Mar 21, 2015: 20mg. May 21, 2016: 20mg and holding strong.

 

My experience: http://rxisk.org/antidepressant-withdrawal-a-prozac-story/

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Not at all!

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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without studies, with common sense, someone told me:

 

A drug such as paxil is poison as well as lead, polish, heroin, aluminium... the difference is the amount ingest daily; we have many "systems" in body, system to breath, to eat, to fear, to sleep, automatic systems such as sympathetic and parasympathetic etc ...

 

we have also a repair system;

 

paxil poisones all systems randomly flowing in blood, serotonin is in head, legs, lungs, bowels  (most); the repair system, system as well as sleep system... with years is damaged; paxil do not make difference with systems...

 

Touching serotonine is touching  much more, like dopamine, gaba and much more unknown by science; much complexe

that is why we will never be the same, but a new self, completely repaired? i think it is a toxicity problem(too much serotonin gives acute serotoninergic syndrome, less serotonin gives less acute)

why acute? look how people suffer on this site

My opinion, being optimistic is not good, pessimistic not good,

maybe realistic is better 

People here have the knowledge what happen to them, what about people polydrugged who not know what is their problem and going to their saver who prescribes

I have not the solution and suffer now at near 6 years without any med

for anxiety 

12 years paxil - cold turkey 1,5 month - switch celexa 1 year taper; total 13 years on brain meds 

67 years old - 9 years  med free

 

in protracted withdrawal

rigidity standing and walking, dryness gougerot-szoegren, sleep deteriorate,

function as have a lack of nerves, improving have been very little 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Stan - have you not improved at all in those 6 years?

 

I do agree with toxicity. There is something seriously wrong when I'm having extreme adverse effects to any toxic substance I am in contact with...serious brain fog, akathisia etc. Thinking that recovery for me will come soon is too optimistic...I would like to think otherwise and do try but the damage I feel at the moments and so many Symptoms...I struggle to even imagine even ever a 50% recovery.

2008 - Doctors appointment with stress induced anxiety led to Citalopram prescription.

Severe adverse reaction

Mirtazapine prescribed - adverse reaction but told to stay on.

Poop out - December 2013

15mg

Currently on 13.5mg,

April 12mg

May 10th - 11mg

June 10th - 10mg

July 8th - 9mg

September - 0mg

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Defeatist attitudes are more damaging than the drugs themselves.

January 2012 - Prescribed 900mg gabapentin and 30mg Norco for lower lumber spinal stenosis pain.

September 2013 - Spinal fusion surgery, 6 levels. Hospital ramped up meds 1500mg gabapentin, 100mg Norco, 80mg Oxycontin, 25mg Fentanyl patch.

January 2014 - Sever nausea daily and with back pain every 4 hours. 2 trips to ER. First endoscopy found ulcer. Treated with Sucralfate and PPI. Second endo in May found no ulcers. Doctors said it was the opiates causing the nausea. CT'd Oxycontin, Fentanyl patch.

July 2014 - Lost 48 lbs. due to not eating because of severe nausea. GP prescribed Prozac 20mg and Ativan 2mg prn. Tried for 4 days, quit. Two week followup GP said keep taking Prozac. 4 days, quit again. Ativan taken rarely prn for anxiety and appetite.

August 2014 - Went to detox. Off opiates. Still nauseous, helmet head, drugged feeling. Doctor CT'd gabapentin. Ended up in ER. Found 2 gallstones. Gabapentin reinstated at 900mg. Tried botched up and down taper to get off Gabapentin. No tapering advice from doctor. Said to just CT again.

September 2014 - Coded on table during gallbladder surgery. Developed liver biloma due to CPR by doctor. Had bile bulb inserted for 2 wks to drain.

October 2014 - Gallbladder removed. Still nauseous, 3am cortisol surging, drugged helmet head, vertigo, breathlessness, whooshing head, heart palps.

November 8th, 2014 - CT'd gabapentin suggested by family and 4 different doctors. Was told no withdrawal is associated with gabapentin. Have been in hell ever since. No windows, just one big tsunami every day with same symptoms for 4 months.

December 26, 2014 - Found SA. At least I know I'm not insane. My family thinks I'm doing this to myself. Akathesia has become unbearable.

March 10, 2015 - In absolute daily hell with no relief. Currently taking magnesium 200mg before bedtime.

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We are going to heal 100% Muddles.

January 2012 - Prescribed 900mg gabapentin and 30mg Norco for lower lumber spinal stenosis pain.

September 2013 - Spinal fusion surgery, 6 levels. Hospital ramped up meds 1500mg gabapentin, 100mg Norco, 80mg Oxycontin, 25mg Fentanyl patch.

January 2014 - Sever nausea daily and with back pain every 4 hours. 2 trips to ER. First endoscopy found ulcer. Treated with Sucralfate and PPI. Second endo in May found no ulcers. Doctors said it was the opiates causing the nausea. CT'd Oxycontin, Fentanyl patch.

July 2014 - Lost 48 lbs. due to not eating because of severe nausea. GP prescribed Prozac 20mg and Ativan 2mg prn. Tried for 4 days, quit. Two week followup GP said keep taking Prozac. 4 days, quit again. Ativan taken rarely prn for anxiety and appetite.

August 2014 - Went to detox. Off opiates. Still nauseous, helmet head, drugged feeling. Doctor CT'd gabapentin. Ended up in ER. Found 2 gallstones. Gabapentin reinstated at 900mg. Tried botched up and down taper to get off Gabapentin. No tapering advice from doctor. Said to just CT again.

September 2014 - Coded on table during gallbladder surgery. Developed liver biloma due to CPR by doctor. Had bile bulb inserted for 2 wks to drain.

October 2014 - Gallbladder removed. Still nauseous, 3am cortisol surging, drugged helmet head, vertigo, breathlessness, whooshing head, heart palps.

November 8th, 2014 - CT'd gabapentin suggested by family and 4 different doctors. Was told no withdrawal is associated with gabapentin. Have been in hell ever since. No windows, just one big tsunami every day with same symptoms for 4 months.

December 26, 2014 - Found SA. At least I know I'm not insane. My family thinks I'm doing this to myself. Akathesia has become unbearable.

March 10, 2015 - In absolute daily hell with no relief. Currently taking magnesium 200mg before bedtime.

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  • Altostrata changed the title to Downregulation and upregulation of receptors

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