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Daveguy2015

Downregulation and upregulation of receptors

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MostlyWater

It's obvious the serotonin receptors repopulate or else no one would ever feel better.. but the big question is.. to what degree? 90% normal? 70%? Also.. does the fact that we had so few receptors for so long cause any harm to our brains? I know stress over long periods of time can cause problems.. like I think the hippocampus literally shrinks under stress.. (but can grow back).. so I'm wondering if all the stress has a deteriorating effect on our well-being


Paxil from 2005 to July 2013. 30mg. 

Very short taper. 

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NowhereMan76

It's probably a crazy thought but I've started to wonder if what we experience after quitting is our bodies actually absorbing all of that serotonin that the meds had prevented us from absorbing. Almost a serotonin overload after having had suppressed the ability to absorb it on the meds. Probably a crazy idea.


---

Started in June 2004 - Lexapro 10MG

Off and on from 2004 to 2008 - Lexapro 10MG

October 2008 - Lexapro 10MG

Late April 2012 - Lexapro 5MG

Late August 2012 - Cold Turkey

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MostlyWater

None of us are experts or have done any tests.. so for now no one really knows what the hell is going on.. in the future they will probably figure it out when the drug companies develop new drugs and stop depending on the current ones and maybe we'll get compensation.. as long as drug companies rely on these drugs.. we will never know the secrets..


Paxil from 2005 to July 2013. 30mg. 

Very short taper. 

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Hudgens

I did a very slow taper, but have still gone through the worst of the withdrawal symptoms most others have described on this site.

For the most part, I feel perfectly normal-I mean to say I get short lived, mild symptoms every other day or so, but the rest of the time I feel no different than I did before taking antidepressants, and I was on them for 20 years.

 

I've only been post taper for 4 months now, but I started feeling perfectly normal about a half a year before going post taper. So, I don't know what's taking place inside, but I do know I feel just as I did before antidepressants. I mean there's no doubt about it.

Just thought you needed a testimonial here.  


Sept 12th 1992-began taking Imipramine (50mgs) for panic attacks.

Stopped Imipramine after 4 months (cold turkey).

7 months later experienced "mysterious" bad flu-like symptoms, although, without upper respiratory problems or fever. Because of this and a day of panic attacks, was put on Prozac (20mgs?) for 2 months and then, when that didn't work-was put back on  Imipramine,  plus Xanax 1 mg (4Xdaily)-October 1993.

March 1999-switched from Imipramine (50mgs) to Celexa.

2008-switched to Pristiq for 3 months, then back to Effexor XR (after bad reaction to the Pristiq).

Sept 1st 2010-Switched from Effexor XR (75mgs) to Effexor Generic (solid form) in preparation for taper.

Nov 15th 2010-Began tapering from 75mgs Effexor Generic.

January 13th 2014-.06mgs

April 17th 2014-      .03mgs

May 11th 2014-       .02mgs

Ended taper October 31st 2014

Oct 4th 2015-11 months post taper and completely back to normal!

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MatGMax

If I can add to the speculation (sorry no studies to quote), I think the speed and degree recovery may depend on the individual.

I think there are plenty of people who make full recoveries. We hear about them and also don't hear about all the people who recover and have no need to search out a website such as ours.

On the other hand I think it is quite possible that some people due to genes and circumstance will not make a 100% recovery.

Hoping you are part of the full recovery group isn't a bad thing (and my best guess is that most people will make a full recovery)

But I think it is also important to acknowledge those who don't.

The old paxil progress site was notorious for dumping on people who had not recovered.

I think this was partly driven by fear that is others could not recover then maybe I could not either.

(Everyone here is a lot more supportive)

 

Cheers

 

Damien


Off all SSRIs as at November 2016.

 

Been on SSRIs (mainly Lexapro) for around 15 years.

failed attempts to go cold turkey before I got proper info on it.

Over last 2 years I've slowly gone from 20 mg Lexapro to 2.5 mg Lexapro.

on 25th Jan 2015 I've now moved to home made liquid Lexapro.

Plan is to drop roughly 0.2 mg per month over the next 1-2 years.  

25th Jan 2015 2.5 mg Lexapro liquid.

24th Mar 2016 1.0 mg lexapro (crushed tablet mixed and refilled into capsules)

Planned to be at 0.0 mg lexapro by about October 2016. 

I also take 50-100 mg modafinil per day, no short term plans of stopping/tapering modafinil but will re-evaluate after I'm off lexapro. 

 

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Vonnegutjunky

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/pb/assets/raw/journals/residents-journal/2014/July_2014.pdf

 

 

Been doing some reading and I dont know what down regulated means - I have attached a link to the article I was reading for the sake of context - page 11

 

Thank you to anyone who can explain that to me!


 

*Currently at 3.3mg off my 10mg pill of Paxil (they actually weigh 12.5mg) so I’m around 7.4 mg 

*No other supplements or vitamins 

*Taper schedule in the pdf 

Blank.pdf

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-5vShtJtwAOGA30OxIP87steLmMdFzD29F0fzAPD564

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brassmonkey

In response to various stimuli our nerves release small amounts of serotonin to cause us to feel certain thing and react in certain ways.  When the reaction is no longer needed the receptors drain off the serotonin and recycle it.  Taking an ssri in effect plugs up (down regulates) the drain  so we end up with excess serotonin in the nerves.  When ssris were invented it was thought that depressed people didn't have enough serotonin and that this would make them feel better.  This is the famous "chemical imbalance" that many of us fell for, that has since been debunked. If you stop taking an ssri CT the drain is suddenly opened, but the body has slowed down serotonin production in reaction to the drain being closed, so there isn't enough serotonin and the body goes in to WD.

 

That's sorta a simplistic description, it's a really complex interaction of a lot of different systems, hope it helps.


20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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Altostrata

Please use Google to answer these questions about terminology.

 

As brassmonkey said, the reuptake inhibitors cause an abnormal pooling of serotonin at the nerve endings. Working on a system of sensors and valves, the body naturally keeps serotonin within certain levels in the brain -- this is called homeostasis. In response to high serotonin, the nerve endings close or depopulate receptors in an attempt to normalize the serotonin level. This is called downregulation.

 

Also see One theory of antidepressant withdrawal syndrome

 

"Tolerance" or "poop-out" -- what happens?


This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Vonnegutjunky

I tried to google it and I couldn't understand - when I used that term it was very technical - just wanted to get a layman answer - thank you!

 

So is there a possibility to recreate those once they are gone? (The nerve endings?) I read somewhere that long term ssri use is associated with 60% less serotonin in the system?

 

Thank you again alto for all of this knowledge that you are sharing!'


 

*Currently at 3.3mg off my 10mg pill of Paxil (they actually weigh 12.5mg) so I’m around 7.4 mg 

*No other supplements or vitamins 

*Taper schedule in the pdf 

Blank.pdf

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-5vShtJtwAOGA30OxIP87steLmMdFzD29F0fzAPD564

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Altostrata

The receptors are believed to repopulate. Think of this as valves opening and closing. Downregulation closes them.


This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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WiggleIt

Clarifying question for you, Alto, to see if I sort of understand...

In complete layperson terms, doesn't downregulation essentially mean that your nervous system has all the tools it needs in order to keep itself "calm"?  And upregulation means all the components of the central nervous system are in a hyperactive tizzy?

  


**I'm not a doctor and don't give medical advice, merely personal experience
***Off all meds since Nov. 2014. Mentally & emotionally recovered; physically not
-Dual cold turkeys off TCA & Ativan in Oct 2014. Prescribed from 2011-2014

-All meds were Rxed off-label for an autoimmune illness.  It was a MISDIAGNOSIS, but I did not find out until AFTER meds caused damage.  All med tapers/cold turkeys directed by doctors 

-Nortriptyline May 2012 - Dec 2013. Cold turkey off nortrip & cold switched to desipramine

-Desipramine Jan 2014 - Oct. 29, 2014 (rapid taper/cold turkey)

-Lorazepam 1 mg per night during 2011
-Lorazepam 1 mg per month in 2012 (or less)

-Lorazepam on & off, Dec 2013 through Aug 2014. Didn't exceed 3x a week

-Lorazepam again in Oct. 2014 to help get off of desipramine. Last dose lzpam was 1 mg, Nov. 2, 2014. Immediate paradoxical reactions to benzos after stopping TCAs 

-First muscle/dystonia side effects started on nortriptyline, but docs too stupid to figure it out. On desipramine, muscle tremors & rigidity worsened

-Two weeks after I got off all meds, I developed full-blown TD.  Tardive dystonia, dyskinesia, myoclonic jerks ALL over body, ribcage wiggles, facial tics, twitching tongue & fingers, tremors/twitches of arms, legs, cognitive impairment, throat muscles semi-paralyzed & unable to swallow solid food, brain zaps, ears ring, dizzy, everything looks too far away, insomnia, numbness & electric shocks everywhere when I try to fall asleep, jerk awake from sleep with big, gasping breaths, wake with terrors & tremors, severely depressed.  NO HISTORY OF DEPRESSION, EVER. Meds CREATED it.

-Month 7: hair falling out; no vision improvement; still tardive dystonia; facial & tongue tics returned
-Month 8: back to acute, incl. Grand Mal seizure-like episodes. New mental torment, PGAD, worse insomnia
-Month 9: tardive dystonia worse, dyskinesia returned. Unable to breathe well due to dystonia in stomach, chest, throat
-Month 13: Back to acute, brain zaps back, developed eczema & stomach problems. Left leg no longer works right due to dystonia, meaning both legs now damaged
-4 years off: Huge improvements, incl. improved dystonia

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Altostrata

No, downregulation means the valves are closed. This is an automatic adjustment to keep a constant level of a hormone circulating.

 

Normally, receptors upregulate and downregulate throughout the day, like a thermostat keeping the heat constant.

 

This is not related to either calming or activating.


This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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akakoom

here's an article on neuron regulation

 

http://learntech.uwe.ac.uk/synapsesneuro/default.aspx?pageid=1918


March 5, 6  2015 1 10mg Paxil each day - only 2 pills total - experienced huge tingle in my head on first pill

 

numbness in my hands and feet, skin less sensitive over all... not ticklish anymore

**anhedonia, blank emotions

PSSD, anorgasmia

heartbeat rhythm problems

"To err is human.  To really foul things up requires a psychiatrist."

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/8554-akakoom-lost-in-no-mans-land/

 

"When you are going through hell, keep going" - Winston Churchill (the only way out is through)

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reachingforthestars

What about neurogenesis? 

 

"Neurogenesis (birth of neurons) is the process by which neurons are generated from theneural stem cells and progenitor cells. Neurogenesis is most active during pre-natal development, and is responsible for populating the growing brain with neurons. Neurogenesis has been shown to occur in a number of brain structures, such as the dentate gyrus of thehippocampus, the nucleus accumbens, and in two parts of the brains of adult mammals: thehippocampus and the subventricular zone. "

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurogenesis


Citalopram 40mg from 2003-2015

Jan 2015 started tapering first dropped to 35mgFeb 30mg, March 25mgApril 20mg, May 17,5mg, June 15mgJuly 12,5mg, Aug 12,5mg,

Sep 0mg for 5 days because of stomac flu and after I raised to 7,5mg. All the symptoms of acute WD shaking, diarrhea, vomiting, barely could walk ect. Still didn't realize that it wasn't only stomac flu but I was also going through WD.

Oct 2,5mg and crashed again badly and quickly raised to 4mg. It was then when I knew my symptoms were due to WD.

Then in November after a month holding on 4mg raised to 5mg due to muscle weakness and had a VERY BAD reaction to reinstatement: akathisia(lasted for one or two weeks), insomnia, anhedonia... Drop quicly back to 4mg, Dec 3mg

Jan 2016 2,6mg( in the middle of Jan after I had been on 2,6mg for a week I tried to updose to 2,8mg and immediately had bad reaction to it: akathisia for a day, andehonia got worse. The next day dropped back to 2,6mg), Feb 2,4mg( a new symptom PGAD lasted 24/7 for 2 months after that on and off), March 2,4mg, April 2,3mg, May 2,2mg, June 2,1mg, July 2,0mg( Pgad almost nonexisting, sleeping pretty good, still some anhedonia but there has been a lot of gradual progress), Aug 1,97mg-1,89mg, Sep 1,88mg-1,49mg, Oct 1,48mg- 1,70mg,

Nov 0,65mg- current dose 0,5mg

 

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Henosis

Beware, This is a bit long. Also, seekin Alostrata's feedback!

 

With all the flurry of activity in glutamate / NMDA receptor research for depression/anxiety/OCD including the more extremes of ketamine infusion, and the glutamate rebound seen in SSRI withdrawal causing alerting/panick from amygdala, I thought i would look into it deeper. (Wishing I finished a neurobiological degree at this point)

 

First, I'm starting with OCD discussion, but will soon connect this to SSRI withdrawal.

 

We know serotonin modules glutamate and is likely responsible for the positive effects on depression/anxiety/OCD. In essence, at least in OCD, glutamate is too active in certain areas of the forebrain.

General citation:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2430669/

 

Guiding this, recent treatments for OCD/anxiety have focused on glutamatergic dysfunction. (Supplements discussed below, Memantine, Riluzole, etc).

 

Supplement: Inositol

-Mechanisms of action: function as the basis for a number of signaling and secondary messenger molecules.

- helpful for OCD/anxiety related to glutamatergic dysfunction in controlled trials

- KNOWN TO RE-SENSITIZE SEROTONIN RECEPTORS (citation for this at bottom of post)

General citations:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22427151/?i=7&from=inositol%20ocd

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16507346/?i=15&from=inositol%20ocd

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425334/

 

N-acetyl-cysteine

- mode of action: precursor to the biologic antioxidant glutathione, which modulates glutamate activity. Temporary increases in glutamine activity in glutamine/NMDA receptors (likely bad for withdrawal) but leads to possible down regulation (good for OCD/anxiety, *in theory* good for ad withdrawal glutamate activation)

General citation: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-005-0246-6

 

Wondering if either of these would affect SSRI withdrawal in particular. Most interesting study I found (mentioned above) posits that inositol actually RESENSITIZES serotonin receptors.

Obviously this is all extremely complex, but has any given inositol or N-acetyl-cysteine a try for SSRI withdrawal? If so, did any symptoms abate?

 

Citation: Inositol re-sensitizing serotonin

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9169302/

 

Also, very curious about the tiny sample of anecdotal reports of strong NDMA antagonists like ketamine relieving likely-hyper-glutamatergic rebound) withdrawal symptoms. And that rat study (can't seem to find the source, believe it was mentioned on SS where-in rats who were forced off imipramime were given NMDA antagonists (blocks glutamate) were relieved of their withdrawal-induced stress symptoms.


Medication before problems: Took Paxil 60-100mg from 2003 to 2014 for OCD.
1) Last pill taken November 2014, horrendous withdrawal started six weeks later.

2) Re-instated successfully @ 20mg May 2015, but accompanied by severe anhedonia, loss of emotion, apathy, and fatigue

3) Switched to Prozac, Viibyrd, Zoloft, Nefazadone, Cymbalta, Nardil in attempt at abating WD symptoms while not re-introducing anhedonia. Each one either failed to relieve WD or brought back anhedonia. So re-stabilized on Paxil at 15mg

4) Tapered down to 7.5mg as of October 2016. More energy, anhedonia/loss of emotions remains apart from short windows.

5) May 2017 - down to 3.5mg of Paxil (no other meds)
6) Early 2018 - added 8mg of Prozac
7) January 2019 - down to 1.05 Paxil / 5mg Prozac and continuing

8) October 2019 - down to 0.2mg Paxil / 3mg Prozac

9) November 2019 - down to 0.1mg Paxil / 3mg Prozac 

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ChessieCat

Here are the links to SA discussions.  To search the site it is best to use a search engine and type in survivingantidepressants.org + topic

 

inositol

 

n-acetylcysteine-nac

 

ketamine-treatment


REMINDER TO SELF:

I don't need the drug now, but my still brain does.

ADs:  25 years - 1 unknown, Prozac (caused muscle weakness), Zoloft/sertraline; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after)

Pristiq:  50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (mild Serotonin Toxicity)

Began tapering Oct 2015  Current from 17 Oct 2020:  Pristiq 0.56 mg (compounded + liquid)

My tapering program

My Intro (goes to my tapering graph)

My website - includes my brief history + links to videos & information on the web

PLEASE NOTE:  I am not a medical professional.  I provide information and make suggestions.

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Henosis

Thanks, it can be confusing to find the "primary" thread for various supplements/drugs/etc that people are trying for WD. Would be nice to have a list/grid somewhere.

Great info on these ideas in those threads. Apparently people have been battling and researching WD for quite some time before it became an issue in my life. Will contribute to the discussion in a less disruptive way in the future.

 

Thanks again mod.


Medication before problems: Took Paxil 60-100mg from 2003 to 2014 for OCD.
1) Last pill taken November 2014, horrendous withdrawal started six weeks later.

2) Re-instated successfully @ 20mg May 2015, but accompanied by severe anhedonia, loss of emotion, apathy, and fatigue

3) Switched to Prozac, Viibyrd, Zoloft, Nefazadone, Cymbalta, Nardil in attempt at abating WD symptoms while not re-introducing anhedonia. Each one either failed to relieve WD or brought back anhedonia. So re-stabilized on Paxil at 15mg

4) Tapered down to 7.5mg as of October 2016. More energy, anhedonia/loss of emotions remains apart from short windows.

5) May 2017 - down to 3.5mg of Paxil (no other meds)
6) Early 2018 - added 8mg of Prozac
7) January 2019 - down to 1.05 Paxil / 5mg Prozac and continuing

8) October 2019 - down to 0.2mg Paxil / 3mg Prozac

9) November 2019 - down to 0.1mg Paxil / 3mg Prozac 

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ravijaua

My suggestion for reinstatement is to give it time. Don't get frustrated. Trust me going off the drug too fast or CT is worse or even developing tolerance like me. When I reinstated 6 years I suffered from anhedonia, anxiety, withdrawal symptoms for months and didn't fully stabilize until 1 year.


Update 8122017

Zoloft  2004. Effexor 2004-2006. Paxil 20 mg for 2006-2010. Ct 2010, bad effects back on, stable by 2011.  Poopout June 2015. Zoloft with paxil for a while, stopped Zoloft.

Sep 2016 paxil 16.2 mg alone(295 mg pill weight). Started tapering 11/14/2016.

Took off 1 mg pill weight(total pill weight of 20 mg = 365 mg and 16 mg is 295 mg). Went down 1 mg per week of pill weight so down to 291 mg by end of November. Starting getting anxiety issues starting since 12/10/2016. Hoping that a faster taper will help.

12/14/2016 - 15.95 mg (291 mg pill weight)

12/16/2016 -  15.83 mg (289 mg pill weight)

12/23/2016 -  15.67 (286 mg pill weight)

8/12/2017 -  15.34 (280 mg pill weight)

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Henosis

We'll I'm sevn months into a Paxil taper (down 7.5mg from approx 15mg where I restabilized after reinstatemen. Just dealing with horrible anhedoIa / lose of interest in every thing. Looking for answers as to emotions returning / pleasure returning at some smaller dose.

I'm not depressed in the least, but the inability to enjoy *anything*' is almost making me suicidal. (Literally staring at ceiling after work, can't enjoy walks, tv, socializing, etc)

 

During vacations when confuisnn and memory problems aren't much of an insure, I've jumped off before for a few days and had emotions come back, but of course that brings all the WD symptoms back quickly. Clearly dangerous to do and I've since stopped, but it was unfashionable nice mixed with propranolol or Librium to contol the anxiety.


Medication before problems: Took Paxil 60-100mg from 2003 to 2014 for OCD.
1) Last pill taken November 2014, horrendous withdrawal started six weeks later.

2) Re-instated successfully @ 20mg May 2015, but accompanied by severe anhedonia, loss of emotion, apathy, and fatigue

3) Switched to Prozac, Viibyrd, Zoloft, Nefazadone, Cymbalta, Nardil in attempt at abating WD symptoms while not re-introducing anhedonia. Each one either failed to relieve WD or brought back anhedonia. So re-stabilized on Paxil at 15mg

4) Tapered down to 7.5mg as of October 2016. More energy, anhedonia/loss of emotions remains apart from short windows.

5) May 2017 - down to 3.5mg of Paxil (no other meds)
6) Early 2018 - added 8mg of Prozac
7) January 2019 - down to 1.05 Paxil / 5mg Prozac and continuing

8) October 2019 - down to 0.2mg Paxil / 3mg Prozac

9) November 2019 - down to 0.1mg Paxil / 3mg Prozac 

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btdt

I am ten years off... cold turkey post tolerance which brought on movement disorder... 

 

now the movement disorder is paramount... thinking is bad... very bad some days... 

 

again glutamate is a on my list... 

 

This does not go away for everyone... 

 

I have stayed off supplements for years till now and I am on many and thinking of quitting them all...if I had to pick one or two 

magnesium 

glutathione 

vitamin C

 

mag which I reacted badly two for years and years is now tolerable by building up with small doses of natural calm I can take a normal dose now but only at bed time as I can't chance the sleep effect in the day. 

 

glutathione is a master detoxer... I am toxic I know I feel it... I have done coffee enemas which helped clear my head more than anything else I have tried... but suck.. they really suck and caused rectal bleeding... yes everything has a price... I can't do them as often as I would like because I can't tolerate it..I just can't. 

 

Vitamin C... I play and play with this one over and over... sometimes if I take too much I think it causes blisters in my mouth.. and woman parts... how is that possible is it actually the cause... I can't say as I am so reactive to everything I buy toilet paper that is bamboo that costs an arm and a leg... still too much vit C and blisters are back in my mouth and on toilet paper contact areas...

 

I could be mad it is just what I am seeing now... thinking of a supplement break scare to do it scared not to...

 

glycine and taurine... helped at different times... wellbeing for both... if you feel like your shaking from too much coffee half a capsule or less of taurine now brand... 500mg... go low you can always take more. 


WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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Jay78

Very alarmed with this

 

"

7. Antidepressants damage brain cells

Neuronal (brain cell) damage: Dr Grace Jackson points out that there are indications that antidepressants have the potential to actually change the structure of the brain (reducing dendritic length and dendritic spine density of serotonin nerve cells). In rat studies these changes did not reverse after the drugs were stopped.7 Alarmingly, serotonin “receptors actually die back and disappear. In some regions of the brain, the dieback may result in losses of 40-60% of serotonin receptors.”13

"
 

Feb 2015 Invega 9mg tapered to zero over 6 month, Levomepromazine 25mg for 3 months
                Citalopram raised from 20mg to 80mg over 3 months, at 80mg for 1 year and 5 months
                Venlaxafine raised from 150mg to 450mg over 3 months (after citalopram) maintained for 1 year and 2 months.     Two shots of haldol decanoas, 
                 Alprazolam from 0.5 to 7(!) mg due to the immense stress of the ads. Down to 2.5mg discontinued abruptly with almost no tapering within a week and a half, against all guidelines first the citalopram then the effexor. October 2017

Occtober 2017 - Dec 2017 Moclobemide raised from 200mg to 800mg during a month and half discontinued with no tapering.

Jan 2017 Feb 2017Fluvoxamine and Venlaxafine 300mg and 450mg, abrupt start, no tapering in discontinuation. 30mg Mirtazapin at night.

Close to two months off antidepressants but on benzos. 6 months on 2.5mg alprazolam, Diazepam 5mg for 1.5 months. Currently on 600mg peronten, 400mg seroquel xr, Risperdal Consta 50mg.

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Why

I think some of you guys are missing some important points here. 

First one is serotonin receptors are not different from all others receptors in every cell of our body, except for their specific function in the brain. 

They're  similar in structure to other receptors. 

We know all of these structures are capable to respond to an excessive presence of the ligand (with downregulation), and to a scarce presence of it (with upregulation). 

Idon'tget why serotonin receptors would be the exception to the rule, having the same structure and function og other receptor.

 

2)it's not only a matter of receptors, several other mecanisms are involved (SERT proteins,  serotonin esocytosis, etc) each of wich is chained with other mechanichs and metabolisms, and none of these is completely understood, so it is too early to say either there is permanent damage or not. 


I'm sorry, didn't write a proper diary and my memory is very bad, can't remember exactly all dosages . Here is a short summary

Drugged since i was 11 yo.

Prescribed several SSRI, neuroleptics, mood stabilizers, benzos.Last prescription was lithium, lamotrigine , 20 mg paroxetine, rivotril

Tapered fast lithium and lamotrigine with little to no symptoms 3 years ago.Since then i'm tapering paroxetine and going through withdrawal syndrome. My tapering was not   stable and that's probably the cause of a lot of acute symptoms i had .

Currently at 0.8 mg of paroxetine

Trying now a micro-taper of 0.02 cuts

15/07/2017 tapered to 0.74  (having waves and windows. Cognitive impairment, akathisia, apathy, anxiety, vision problems, depression, paranoia, obsessive toughts, extreme fatigue,  and some more: all comes in waves except vision problems wich are persistent)

08/09/2017 0.72 mg 28/09/2017 0.70 mg

 

 

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UnfoldingSky

 

Very alarmed with this

 

"

7. Antidepressants damage brain cells

Neuronal (brain cell) damage: Dr Grace Jackson points out that there are indications that antidepressants have the potential to actually change the structure of the brain (reducing dendritic length and dendritic spine density of serotonin nerve cells). In rat studies these changes did not reverse after the drugs were stopped.7 Alarmingly, serotonin “receptors actually die back and disappear. In some regions of the brain, the dieback may result in losses of 40-60% of serotonin receptors.”13

"
 

 

 

Hi Jay,

 

I had a severe reaction to Celexa and then cold turkey withdrawal and then took other pills that caused more harm.  I was convinced I would not heal at all. Not long after being injured I found some of Dr. Breggin's work and he claimed one really awful effect I had had from the pills was permanent.  Consequently I was in a pit of despair over what had happened.  But it turned out that was not true, I later found people who had recovered from it and then I did as well.  I haven't read Dr. Jackson's work so I can't comment deeply on that but even with critics of the drugs I've learned you have to be careful in just believing all of what they say. 

 

Also if the results are on rats they may not be relevant to people, it does happen sometimes in science that findings on animals have no real applicability to people. I just read of a case like that in another area of science where they were claiming something based on animal studies applied to humans too and now they've just found a finding that may well overturn it.


I am not a medical professional and nothing I say is a medical opinion or meant to be medical advice, please seek a competent and trusted medical professional to consult for all medical decisions.

 

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btdt

 

Very alarmed with this

 

"

7. Antidepressants damage brain cells

Neuronal (brain cell) damage: Dr Grace Jackson points out that there are indications that antidepressants have the potential to actually change the structure of the brain (reducing dendritic length and dendritic spine density of serotonin nerve cells). In rat studies these changes did not reverse after the drugs were stopped.7 Alarmingly, serotonin “receptors actually die back and disappear. In some regions of the brain, the dieback may result in losses of 40-60% of serotonin receptors.”13

"
 

 

 

I think we are not all the same and for some it may be true again these are rats but there was a study done on baboons with zoloft years ago it was all over the net then it disappeared.  Many sites where the study was posted were closed.  I did post what I could find of that study here at SA long ago cause it bugs me that this disappearing study thing happens so often. I recall a discussion again years ago at the first wd site that existed where this was commonly discussed... and there was more to it too. As I recall the receptors that grew in place of the one that were damaged were flimsy... and not as robust as the normal receptors. I don't recall any discussion on if they changed over time as they aged or if they just died off... I don't know if the studies got that far at that point.

 

At that point at least there were some studies and anyone could find the results online... now you will rarely find anything like ..even the paxil withdrawal lawsuit has been cleaned off the web... you may find a mention of it at the lawyers website but that is about it. Studies are really mia...

 

I tried to read Grace Jacksons books once but they were over my head... get her books give them a read if you want to know.. I think if I lived in the states I would go see her but I don't so I won't...

 

That is my take on the situation... I wonder what the old members from the first site recall about all this and wonder if they will post what they know... I wonder.  


WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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Jay78

I think some of you guys are missing some important points here. 

First one is serotonin receptors are not different from all others receptors in every cell of our body, except for their specific function in the brain. 

They're  similar in structure to other receptors. 

We know all of these structures are capable to respond to an excessive presence of the ligand (with downregulation), and to a scarce presence of it (with upregulation). 

Idon'tget why serotonin receptors would be the exception to the rule, having the same structure and function og other receptor.

 

2)it's not only a matter of receptors, several other mecanisms are involved (SERT proteins,  serotonin esocytosis, etc) each of wich is chained with other mechanichs and metabolisms, and none of these is completely understood, so it is too early to say either there is permanent damage or not. 

 

 

Hey Why you seem really knowledgeable, could you elaborate?


Feb 2015 Invega 9mg tapered to zero over 6 month, Levomepromazine 25mg for 3 months
                Citalopram raised from 20mg to 80mg over 3 months, at 80mg for 1 year and 5 months
                Venlaxafine raised from 150mg to 450mg over 3 months (after citalopram) maintained for 1 year and 2 months.     Two shots of haldol decanoas, 
                 Alprazolam from 0.5 to 7(!) mg due to the immense stress of the ads. Down to 2.5mg discontinued abruptly with almost no tapering within a week and a half, against all guidelines first the citalopram then the effexor. October 2017

Occtober 2017 - Dec 2017 Moclobemide raised from 200mg to 800mg during a month and half discontinued with no tapering.

Jan 2017 Feb 2017Fluvoxamine and Venlaxafine 300mg and 450mg, abrupt start, no tapering in discontinuation. 30mg Mirtazapin at night.

Close to two months off antidepressants but on benzos. 6 months on 2.5mg alprazolam, Diazepam 5mg for 1.5 months. Currently on 600mg peronten, 400mg seroquel xr, Risperdal Consta 50mg.

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myndfull

As I've come off this drug, I have rediscovered my self, one that is fundamentally grounded in hope. So when somebody says, as someone on this thread did earlier, that serotonin receptors will not return to full functioning, and then doesn't quote the scientific data that supports that assertion, he or she is just muddying the water. Sowing confusion.

 

As I get closer to the end of my taper (now approaching the end of my third year of it), I sense myself returning to my "old self." That is, a "kind" of normal. I say "kind" because while I took Paxil and then Celexa for 18 years (about twenty years if you count the years withdrawing), I raised two kids; I had an extremely difficult job that I survived (I'm recently retired, though I retired a couple of years earlier than I wanted because of the withdrawal symptoms); I experienced the death of my mother and two brothers; I worked on and received a graduate degree from a wonderful university; I stopped drinking alcohol; I developed and maintained stronger relationships with my wife and son. Etc.

 

I'd like to think that I'll be a stronger person after SSRI's than I was before them.

 

These experiences have surely changed me, perhaps more profoundly than my use of and withdrawal from anti-depressants. Who I am when I'm over this experience is anyone's guess, but if I can find my center, that self who I identify as me, I'll be happy. If it isn't quite the same me, then so be it.

 

In the last six months or so my IBS (irritible bowel syndrome) has returned; I had it before I started on Paxil. Paxil got rid of that issue for me. Ironically when I went to my doc complaining of bowel irritation recently he proscribed Cipro and Flomax. If there's one thing I've learned from all of this, it's not to trust pill-pushing M.D.'s. They are as flawed as any other human being. I now put a lot more trust in my own senses.

 

Lots of people get off these drugs and go on with their lives. They have returned to themselves, more or less. If that self was problematic to some degree in the first place, then they must "deal" with it. My hope is that whoever I am in a year or so (six months or so after my last dose of Celexa), I will be better able to deal with my problems. I suffer from too much baseline anxiety; I'm easily irritated; I have a hard time enjoying life; etc. I dealt with all of those issues to one degree or another before I started taking an SSRI, and I'll deal with those issues after I'm off the drug. Hope is a wonderful thing; it can heal. We need to keep it alive and well inside us.

 

 


 

I had tried and failed to stop Paxil several times (though never using a long, slow taper) and thought Celexa might be easier, so I shifted to Celexa in 2012. In August of 2014 I began a serious tapered withdrawal from Celexa (20 mg.), making monthly drops, mostly 10% of the last dose, sometimes more, sometimes less.  In July of 2016 I took an early retirement at 59 in large part because of my intense withdrawal  symptoms.

 

Three years and eight months after beginning my taper, I stopped taking Celexa on 5/12/18.

 

I am currently in recovery and I am very slowly getting better. I still have waves and some are quite bad. But overall the trend is toward healing.

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ChessieCat

I've been taking an AD for 25 years.  I'm definitely feeling more like my old self!


REMINDER TO SELF:

I don't need the drug now, but my still brain does.

ADs:  25 years - 1 unknown, Prozac (caused muscle weakness), Zoloft/sertraline; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after)

Pristiq:  50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (mild Serotonin Toxicity)

Began tapering Oct 2015  Current from 17 Oct 2020:  Pristiq 0.56 mg (compounded + liquid)

My tapering program

My Intro (goes to my tapering graph)

My website - includes my brief history + links to videos & information on the web

PLEASE NOTE:  I am not a medical professional.  I provide information and make suggestions.

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myndfull

ChessieCat -- Good to hear. My best wishes for your continued success!


 

I had tried and failed to stop Paxil several times (though never using a long, slow taper) and thought Celexa might be easier, so I shifted to Celexa in 2012. In August of 2014 I began a serious tapered withdrawal from Celexa (20 mg.), making monthly drops, mostly 10% of the last dose, sometimes more, sometimes less.  In July of 2016 I took an early retirement at 59 in large part because of my intense withdrawal  symptoms.

 

Three years and eight months after beginning my taper, I stopped taking Celexa on 5/12/18.

 

I am currently in recovery and I am very slowly getting better. I still have waves and some are quite bad. But overall the trend is toward healing.

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JD88

I have to admit I'm worried as I feel numb and disconnected since coming off AD's 2 weeks ago. 

 

I guess I need to give it time I'm doing exersize, playing rugby, going to work meditation spending lots of time with friends, family my partner just want my feelings back.

 

But my OCD is going in to over drive cos i'm worrying but I am doing talk plus counselling every 2 weeks. 

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Bonpensiero

This is particularly a question for Altostrata, who I think is quite well studied in this topic, but I'd be interested to hear from anyone else who has any useful information on this subject.

 

My question concerns neural regeneration in the brain after stopping ADs. I've seen it suggested here that one of the ways that the brain adapts to ADs is to downgrade its serotonin receptors in order to cope with the increased amounts of serotonin. If this is correct (and it certainly makes sense to me), my question is: do the receptors recover, or are they permanently downgraded? And if they do recover, how long does recovery take in general?

 

I suspect that the answer to my question is, we don't really know. We are after all the gineaupigs in this insane experiment. But if anyone has any reliable information on this subject, or can point me towards any studies or research, I'd be very grateful. 

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Best wishes,

Bonpensiero

 

 

 

 

 


20mg Fluoxetine daily for 13 years. I did two tapers (both before I found this site). The first, about three years ago, was by breaking open the capsule and reducing the amount of powder. I did that for about 8 months. My doc then told me this was wrong and that, if I wanted to taper, I should use the liquid form. I then went on to the liquid form at full dose and started to taper again. This second taper took about a year, ending in about May this year. Since then, due to bad withdrawal, I have reinstated to 2mg and am just about coping, but not exactly thriving.

 

Update: November 2015: upped reinstatement dosage to 4mg on advice received here. Since then, periods of feeling OK alternating with deep pits of suicidal despair, but the former are just about winning out over the latter. Was seriously considering going back on at full dosage for good, but have so far managed to resist that temptation. 

 

Update Feb 2016: feeling OK, although still not immune from waves of despair and deep depression. Reduced the 4mg by 10% with the aim of eventually getting back down to zero again, which I will be doing very, very, very slowly. Also taking 100mg 5HTP daily, which helps a little.   

 

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Downbutnotout

Have you gotten it back? 


 

2001 Remeron , Celexa, prozac a week on lithium. 

2014 went off effexor and trazadone in 3 weeks. 

2014 zoloft (hyper reaction) put on effexor 75 mg. Was stable until 2017 

2017  Trazadone 50 mg (June) Effexor to 113 mg (2 weeks) Effexor 150 mg for a month . Took 75 mg until November. . Lithium 10 days, Lamactil 10 day  aug-nov15 ativan

October : Prozac bridge to get off 75 mg of effexor Used 10 mg of prozac. Stopped prozac 3 wk 

Dec 6, 7 Upped trazadone from 50 to 100 mg Did it for 3 days Stopped it

Dec 7 , Dec 8 Took prozac again 0.1 , 0.1, 0.6 stopped it

Dec 11 and Dec 12 upped it to 100 again

Dec 15 , 16,17 went back to 50 mg of trazadone

December 18 Began 3 beads of effexor  Dec 25 began 5 beads of effexor take 10 mg of omneprazole daily

 

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ChessieCat
1 hour ago, Bonpensiero said:

This is particularly a question for Altostrata

 

Alto has made several comments within this topic.


REMINDER TO SELF:

I don't need the drug now, but my still brain does.

ADs:  25 years - 1 unknown, Prozac (caused muscle weakness), Zoloft/sertraline; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after)

Pristiq:  50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (mild Serotonin Toxicity)

Began tapering Oct 2015  Current from 17 Oct 2020:  Pristiq 0.56 mg (compounded + liquid)

My tapering program

My Intro (goes to my tapering graph)

My website - includes my brief history + links to videos & information on the web

PLEASE NOTE:  I am not a medical professional.  I provide information and make suggestions.

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Bonpensiero

Hi ChessieCat – how would I find these? Can you post links? Thanks.


20mg Fluoxetine daily for 13 years. I did two tapers (both before I found this site). The first, about three years ago, was by breaking open the capsule and reducing the amount of powder. I did that for about 8 months. My doc then told me this was wrong and that, if I wanted to taper, I should use the liquid form. I then went on to the liquid form at full dose and started to taper again. This second taper took about a year, ending in about May this year. Since then, due to bad withdrawal, I have reinstated to 2mg and am just about coping, but not exactly thriving.

 

Update: November 2015: upped reinstatement dosage to 4mg on advice received here. Since then, periods of feeling OK alternating with deep pits of suicidal despair, but the former are just about winning out over the latter. Was seriously considering going back on at full dosage for good, but have so far managed to resist that temptation. 

 

Update Feb 2016: feeling OK, although still not immune from waves of despair and deep depression. Reduced the 4mg by 10% with the aim of eventually getting back down to zero again, which I will be doing very, very, very slowly. Also taking 100mg 5HTP daily, which helps a little.   

 

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Ryguy

Im sorry if this topic exists but i only found a few topics that mentioned upregulation specifically....

 

i am aware no one knows exactly how ssris work or why the withdrawals can be of this level of severity and i understand we dont have an answer other than time, but it seems to the most valued model of whats going on is downregulation of serotonin receptors, and if this is true , are there any known Ways of upregulating them without issues? Is it only through drugs we can do that? And do those drugs (5htp included) ever come without side effects? Is downregulation even a model people value anymore?


Was put on SSRIS at age 18, came off at 20 due to side effects, have been in withdrawal ever since, am 27 now. 7 years of protracted withdrawal. have not been able to work. I didnt taper, i basically came off cold turkey in less than a month....no one informed me of anything, including protracted withdrawal . my symptoms include absolutely everything you can imagine, you name it, i have it 

 

 

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Altostrata

merged similar topics

 

No, there is no way to upregulate your receptors. Let them recover on their own.


This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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