JohnDoe: Struggling

[JohnDoe]

Thanks Catnap

 

I've had the joint/muscle pain for about a week, the normal aches you get with a cold etc., but they have gradually intensified as the cold symptoms eased up. For the last 4 days they have been very dibilitating and have got to the stage where I have changed or ceased doing some of my usual activities. Each day they are getting worse and its this aspect that's worrying me. If they don't relent then I will be majorly impacted in a few days.

Because I also find myself clenching my jaw tight at times, I am fairly sure these are withdrawal symptoms and am here seeking that reassurance I suppose. My biggest dilemma is how to front this up. I'm happy to step the dose back up if necessary and taper even slower if I have to, I just want these pains to go away.

 

Regards

John

[ChessieCat]

You could try some Magnesium

 

And maybe invest in a mouth guard for at night:  face-jaw-tongue-muscle-tension-and-pain

[JohnDoe]

ChessieCat,

 

I use Magnesium oil daily and have done for many months now. I rub it in over my chest and, recently, over the joints that ache. I have some stomach issues which get aggravated if I take oral supplements, hence the oil. I also take 5HTP and B12 via spray under the tongue daily. I've also tried skipping all of these supplements to see if any of them have been responsible.

I haven't got a mouth guard and, if honest, don't seem to suffer from the jaw clenching at night. The problem I'm experiencing is not with teeth grinding but of a 'clamping' nature. I do it without thinking and, when I realise I am doing it, I have to make a conscious effort to stop. Chewing gum has helped a bit with this. However, my 'default' setting is with the jaws firmly clamped shut! This gives me upper back tension and headaches which is exasperating the whole issue.

I'm wondering if the cold virus is still with me and is causing my immune system to attack the joints etc. My wife says she had minor joint aches with her cold which have now gone. I think i have had the same but, because of the withdrawal going on and the unstable central nervous system, mine have gone way way out of control. The goal now is to find a way to recover the situation and get back to stability. Many thanks for your suggestions, I am happy to listen to any approach to this.

 

Best regards

 

John

[KarenB]

For aching joints I'd be having hot baths with epsom salts dissolved in it. 

 

When I had jaw clamping and tension issues I googled relaxing jaw exercises and TMJ relief.  There's some very good ones. I practiced them till they became second nature, and I still find myself using them now, a good few years later. 

 

Other than that, it's probably time and 'back to the basics' of hydration and rest and healthy food. 

[JohnDoe]

Hi again

 

Still holding up and trying to regain some sort of normality. Have resisted the urge to up dose but now find myself rapidly running out of other options.

 

Since last writing I have increased my dosage of Magnesium. I have now added oral supplements to my usual oil application. I have also continued with 5HTP and Green Tea twice a day. I find I am having to take pain killers and NSAID's every 4 hours to keep the joint pain down to an acceptable level and I am using heat pads to give some further relief. There has been no change for the better and, conversely, there has been an increase in my anxiety levels. I don't know if this is due to any of those supplements (Green Tea perhaps?) or because I am fretting more and more by the lack of improvement.

 

I am very close to up dosing now, but am wondering what I should go back up to? I am currently on 2.25mg (liquified capsules method). The last dose I was stable at was 2.5mg so I am thinking this should be where I return? I question whether such a small increase will be enough though, although such a small decrease has caused this! Would be interested in any views.

 

If I can stabilise then I intend to taper far far slower. Once I have been stable for some considerable time I intend to do the 10% reduction again but this time, over a period of 10 weeks by doing a 2% reduction every 2 weeks. I'm thinking that may help reduce the effects a larger cut is having on my CNS. 

 

Regards

 

John

[scallywag]

The increase you're contemplating seems sensible, from 2.25 to 2.5 mg.

[KarenB]

I can see why you are thinking of up-dosing.  It may be what you need to do, but if I were in your shoes there's a couple of things I'd try first. 

 

1.  Stop the 5htp:  it is not recommended for use while taking psych drugs, as it is activating. 

 

2.  Stop the green tea:  it has caffeine in it, which is also activating. 

 

Then give it a few days to see if things improve any.  I

[JohnDoe]

Hi

 

Since last writing I have up dosed to 2.4mg in an attempt to restore some stability but, as yet, 10 days later, I am still the same.

 

I saw my GP yesterday as my elbows are incredibly painful with 'golfers elbow' tendinitis and most of my other joints, fingers, shoulders, knees and toes hurt continuously. As I'm sure most of you can relate to, he had little sympathy in respect of my struggle to get off Mirt and said I should just stop. I gave up trying to reason with him in the end. However, when he found out that I was making a liquid out of my capsules, he offered me the dissolving type of tablet if I wanted it.

 

Does anyone know if this dissolvable tablet can be treated the same? Dissolved in 15ml of water and used as I am doing now? I am assuming it should but wanted to ask before diving in and getting it wrong?

 

Many thanks in anticipation.

[ChessieCat]

From Post #1  Tips for tapering off Remeron (mirtazapine):

 

Reduce by making a liquid with the "orally disintegrating" tablets
You may be able to dissolve the orally disintegrating tablets ("Soltabs") in water and use an oral syringe to take a measured dosage. I couldn't find any reports of doing this but, since the orally disintegrating tablet is designed to dissolve in saliva, it seems likely to work.

I would take the dosage immediately and discard the rest -- do not count on it keeping for any length of time. For instructions on how to make a liquid, see http://survivinganti...ts-or-capsules/ If you do this and it works, please let us know in this topic.

______________________

 

There may be more discussion about the Soltabs within the topic.

 

I've also googled using survivingantidepressants.org Soltab and found these:

 

Shy: Switching dosage formulations of Remeron - Introductions and ...

 

Rosalind: 6 weeks off Remeron - Surviving Antidepressants

 

freesalmon: Mirtazapine withdrawal or something else? - Introductions ...

[JohnDoe]

Thanks ChessieCat. I've read through those sections before and have revisited them again. I've collected my prescription for the solvable tabs and will give them a try.

 

I am beginning to think that the updose I did was too little as I have had no improvement at all and my anxiety levels have increased, probably more as a result of my struggle than the actual withdrawal. I'm thinking that I need to have a considerable updose now as I can only see this lingering and spiralling deeper if I hold tight and that is having a huge impact on my quality of life. Returning to 3.75mg would allow me to return to a quarter of a tablet. Where I would go from there is a mystery though, possibly on the CITA withdrawal program?

 

It's a dilemma but I need to take some positive action I feel.

[ChessieCat]

Going from 2.4mg to 3.75mg is a really big jump, an increase of 1.35mg, about a 50% increase.  I understand that it would be convenient to be on 1/4 tablet.  In my opinion choosing convenience over a sensible small updose is unwise.  Your signature says you stabilised on 2.75mg at the start of December, so why would you increase to 1mg higher than that?  In post #42 Scally suggested updosing to 2.5mg.

 

Please update your signature so that we can see your dates and doses at a glance.  Thank you.

[JohnDoe]

Hi

 

Am still holding on 2.4mg but no improvement as yet. Am now using the Solutab's prescribed by my GP. The liquid does appear more 'uniform' in nature and i am discarding the remainder after 1 dose so, what I am taking, is at least fresh.

 

ChessieCat - thanks for your replies, they are very much appreciated. Please ignore my rant about reinstating 3.75mg. It was written out of desperation and I definitely do not want to return to that high dose again. However, I am now questioning whether I do need to up dose slightly more as 2.4mg is not doing it for me. As you say, I was stable on 2.75mg in December so maybe that is where I need to be looking at ? Question is, do I just up dose to that straight away or do i up dose up slightly, say 2.5, 2.6, etc until I get there in the hope of stabilising sooner? I suppose, If I'm honest, I am struggling to comprehend that such small increases, 0.10 etc etc, can have on a person. You would have thought I might have realised that by now! It seems such a small amount and it casts doubt in me that it can have an effect.

 

I have just run through my drug history and updated my signature. To be honest, my date keeping has been all over the place so I have had to do quite a lot of research etc to find them. Having listed them I can now see that I have rushed things. I did well from 3.75 down to 3mg and I think that has then been the catalyst for me rushing it further. Its lulled me into a false sense of security and I've run with that. I also saw 3mg as being a 'magic number' that I wanted to get below.

 

So, here's where I'm at - currently on 2.4mg and holding. Hoping the terrible symptoms I am suffering (joint/muscle pain, anxiety, headache, bruxism etc etc) will pass. However, as its been some considerable time, and they are the worst I have experienced to date, I am contemplating up dosing as far as 2.75mg if I have to. Am undecided as to whether to up dose gradually or 'bite the bullet' and hit 2.75mg straight off. If I can stabilise then I have no intention of further rushing this. I have finally surrendered and realise how ridiculously slow this WD business is and needs to be!

 

Sorry if I seem to be moaning and whinging on here. I know I should just get on with it and concentrate on cracking this but its a new experience for me and I will admit to being overwhelmed by it. 

 

Regards

[scallywag]

JD - if you're feeling that an updose is needed, work your way up slowly. Bump up to 2.5 mg hold for 2-3 weeks, if no improvement then increase another .1 mg to 2.6 mg. Hold for 2-3 weeks.

[JohnDoe]

Thanks Scallywag, have upped my dose to 2.5mg as of two days ago so will keep my fingers crossed. I am beginning to question whether the soluble tabs have a different consistency when added to water than when crushing and liquifying normal tablets. To be on the safe side, I have now gone back to my old system, the normal capsules, and will see if I can bring this back around.

 

Regards

 

John

[JohnDoe]

Hi All. 

 

I have been tapering Mirtazapine for some time now and, as you will see from my signature, my method is a little unorthodox but it is working for me. If I hit any hint of WD symptoms then I hold longer and, on a couple of occasions, have up dosed. I am liquifying half a caplet (7.5mg) it 7.5ml of water and drawing my dose by an oral syringe.

 

My question is - ever since going sub 1.6mg I have had very loose bowels/diarrhoea and an increase in acid reflux symptoms. I know that Mirt WD can cause bowel issues but I didn't expect it to do so at such a low level. Has anyone else, on such a low dose, got any experience of this too? I have tried all the usual remedies for a stomach bug, starvation, BRAT diet etc etc, but its made no difference. I don't have a temperature so have ruled out an infection and am at a loss as to the next step forward. I am tempted to 'bite the bullet' and start decreasing my dose by a larger amount ie. 0.10mg or 0.15mg to see if I can get through the stomach issue barrier.

 

I would be grateful for any thoughts or advice.

 

Many thanks

 

[ChessieCat]

This is SA's topic on stomach issues:  Digestive problems:  Nausea, Diarrhoea, Bloating, GERD

 

Click on the link above and then type diarrhoea in the search at the top right to find posts which contain that word.

[Hibari]

Hi JohnDoe,

 

I had very loose bowels throughout my Remeron/Mirtazapine wd, even on the lower doses.   By the way, I was reading your thread and I always had adverse reaction to the Solutabs.  I too went back to regular tablets when I was making a liquid suspension. 

 

You are getting there. 

[Santino]

HI JohnDoe

I used to have loose bowels at higher doses but now no more. The only physical problems i face currently are non solid sleep at night... i always wake up 3-4 times every night to go to the toilet, stuffed up nose and loose of smell and taste on some days due histamine intolerance.
 

About the acid reflux i used to have it before remeron and now it has come back on particular days but i do not attribute it to WD. Go on.... with your plan. I am currently at 0.3 and going down.

All the best

[JohnDoe]

Thanks for the replies folks, I shall continue as I am and hopefully pop out the other side in one piece. I'm expecting more changes as I go down as i now know that even the smallest adjustment can have a profound effect.

 

Thanks again

 

John

[JohnDoe]

Hi all

 

As you can see from my signature, I am completely off Mirtazapine as of 23rd November 2017 after a somewhat unorthodox taper. Although it might not be a recognised one, it worked for me at the time and allowed me to be med free for the first time in nearly 13 years (I also tapered off Lansoprazole at the same time which I had been on for acid reflux/Hiatal hernia issues since 2003/2003). I took my last dose of Lansoprazole in August this year.

 

Its 2 weeks since stopping completely and I have an issue that has arisen. Since stopping I have had very minor symptoms of withdrawal, all very minor and not bad enough for me to do or change anything. As they are bearable, I have been waiting it out expecting them to slowly subside. However, 2 days ago I woke up with a very badly cricked neck. I assumed I had slept awkward or something as there was nothing I could pinpoint that may have caused it. I treated it with cold/heat and OTC pain medication but it never subsided. The headache that goes with it is so bad that it made me pay a visit to my GP to rule out anything viral and nasty.

 

My GP thinks its muscular but has taken bloods etc to cover all bases. I am still waiting for the results of those but, as he said he would ring me if anything red flagged, I assume they are normal as I have not heard from him. I told him about my taper and he did agree that this could be connected to the Mirtazapine. 

 

My dilemma is this - He has prescribed me Tramadol for the pain (I am unable to take opiates) and 10mg of Amitriptyline for sleep and 'balancing out the CNS'. I have not taken either as yet because I have taken Tramadol before and, although it works well for pain, its addictive and hard to get off. I am very reluctant to take the Amitriptyline obviously because its another AD and will see me back to square one with tapering etc etc.

 

My questions are - Whats the thoughts on the neck pain being WD? I have always suffered joint pain with my taper and that is raised in severity also at the moment (knees, elbows, lower back). Is Amitriptyline suitable or would you avoid it at all costs? Is a small dose of 5mg (half a tablet) advisable? Is it easy to taper off compared to Mirtazapine? Can you take it for a few days or does it take weeks to become effective? Should I ride this out and, if so, what sort of timescale are we looking at for an improvement?

 

Sorry for the number of questions but I am disappointed to be suffering once again when I was certain I was out of the woods.

 

Many Thanks

 

 

 

[JohnDoe]

 

Hi all

 

As you can see from my signature, I am completely off Mirtazapine as of 23rd November 2017 after a somewhat unorthodox taper. Although it might not be a recognised one, it worked for me at the time and allowed me to be med free for the first time in nearly 13 years (I also tapered off Lansoprazole at the same time which I had been on for acid reflux/Hiatal hernia issues since 2003/2003). I took my last dose of Lansoprazole in August this year.

 

Its 2 weeks since stopping completely and I have an issue that has arisen. Since stopping I have had very minor symptoms of withdrawal, all very minor and not bad enough for me to do or change anything. As they are bearable, I have been waiting it out expecting them to slowly subside. However, 2 days ago I woke up with a very badly cricked neck. I assumed I had slept awkward or something as there was nothing I could pinpoint that may have caused it. I treated it with cold/heat and OTC pain medication but it never subsided. The headache that goes with it is so bad that it made me pay a visit to my GP to rule out anything viral and nasty.

 

My GP thinks its muscular but has taken bloods etc to cover all bases. I am still waiting for the results of those but, as he said he would ring me if anything red flagged, I assume they are normal as I have not heard from him. I told him about my taper and he did agree that this could be connected to the Mirtazapine. 

 

My dilemma is this - He has prescribed me Tramadol for the pain (I am unable to take opiates) and 10mg of Amitriptyline for sleep and 'balancing out the CNS'. I have not taken either as yet because I have taken Tramadol before and, although it works well for pain, its addictive and hard to get off. I am very reluctant to take the Amitriptyline obviously because its another AD and will see me back to square one with tapering etc etc.

 

My questions are - Whats the thoughts on the neck pain being WD? I have always suffered joint pain with my taper and that is raised in severity also at the moment (knees, elbows, lower back). Is Amitriptyline suitable or would you avoid it at all costs? Is a small dose of 5mg (half a tablet) advisable? Is it easy to taper off compared to Mirtazapine? Can you take it for a few days or does it take weeks to become effective? Should I ride this out and, if so, what sort of timescale are we looking at for an improvement?

 

Sorry for the number of questions but I am disappointed to be suffering once again when I was certain I was out of the woods.

 

Many Thanks

 

[Altostrata]

Hello, JohnDoe. As you know, we are very reluctant to suggest people take any drugs for withdrawal symptoms.

 

Whether a crick in the neck is withdrawal or not, doesn't one or two prescriptions for a drug to take every day seem like overkill?

 

Your doctor is prescription-happy. If I were you, I would seek treatment from a chiropractor, an osteopath, an acupuncturist, or a massage therapist for an isolated symptom like this one. Even doing some stretching exercises probably would help.

 

In general, many people do better with fish oil and magnesium supplements, see
http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1300-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-block

 

 

A lot of people find them helpful. Try a little bit of one at a time to see how it affects you.

 

Magnesium in particular is good for muscle pain. Even some magnesium oil on your neck might bring you relief.

 

But it really sounds like you need to do some stretching.

[JohnDoe]

Thanks for the reply Altostrata. 

 

I fully agree that the doctor was prescription happy and I didn't take either the Amitriptyline or the Tramadol. I suppose I didn't really believe it was withdrawal related but now I am not so sure.

 

The neck issue has mostly cleared up over the last week and I am left with a slight niggle, and corresponding headache, which I am happy is withdrawal. I'm also now suffering with mild anxiety in the form of bruxism, jitteriness and slight dizziness. The whole of my upper back is burning more or less constantly and my stomach is bloated and painful. I'm beginning to think that I have gastritis brought on by stress and worry about how I feel and am contemplating and 2 week course of antacids to see if I can rescue things stomach wise.

 

Having taken the last Mirtazapine on 23rd November and, having not suffered badly whilst tapering over the last few months prior to stopping, I thought that I was 'out of the woods'. Apparently not! I suppose I am learning the hard way that the CNS has many fingers in the withdrawal pie!

 

I will hopefully be able to stick with it and ride out this feeling. Fingers crossed it will ease off in the next few weeks. 

 

Thanks again.

 

[Kostas]

Hi John, 

I was on citalopram 20mg  on off, for 18 years including 7 years of slow tapering. 

Off the drug for 5 years now with fortunately bearable withdrawal symptoms during these five years and functional around 80%.

However on the 4th year of, a pain appeared on my left shoulder for about a month, very painful and disturbing! 

A ton of exams showed nothing, and the only help found, was from a professional masseur. 

It was a pure withdrawal symptom, vanished suddenly, and did not bothered me any more. 

[JohnDoe]

Just a quick update:

 

Still off the Mirtazapine. Its now just over 10 weeks off and am generally doing ok. Never took the other drugs prescribed (Tramadol and Amitriptylene) but am back on Lansoprazole 30mg a day as my Gastritis returned with a vengance. Bit disappointed to be back on them but my hand was forced somewhat. I am waiting to have an operation on my elbow, which has been a long time coming, and they have said they will not do it if I am experiencing acid reflux. Safety reasons I believe regarding being put to sleep. Nonetheless, no choice but to get it back under control.

 

Am hoping that the current wave I am experiencing will be shorter than the last. The problem I find is that the anxiety etc caused by the wave is making the gastritis worse and I find myself on a vicious circle. I am beginning to fear that I will not be successful in getting rid of the stomach issues fully until I am clear of Mirt WD symptoms.

 

Anyway, wanted to let you all know where I'm at as you have all been very kind and supportive to me through this.

 

Regards

 

 

[samanthaelizabeth]

On 10/9/2016 at 10:28 PM, JohnDoe said:

Many thanks for the replies, I will have a good read through the links.

 

Your summary of my drug history is correct, a total of nine weeks on mirtazapine.

 

I'm teetering on the edge of reinstating but, if I did, I don't know what dose to take as I can't accurately cut the tablet beyond 3.75mg. Also, having been off nearly 2 weeks, I am at that point where it might only be a short time longer before I pull through to the other side.

 

I do want to quit the Lansoprazole and that is my intention once off Mirtazapine. I have been so dependent on it when I probably don't need it any longer. It's also causing me joint and muscle aches which are really clouding the withdrawal symptoms as well.

 

Many thanks for the links, I will have a good read up.

Hi there! I was on Mirtazapine back in 1999 for about 2 years.  I told my doctor I wanted to go off of it and luckily he was smart enough to tell me to go very, very slowly.  I got off of it no problem.  I'm not a moderator, I'm sure they will be along soon to help you.  I used the Sol-Tabs to taper off.  Now looking back after I was done with it, I did have some really bad stomach pains and went to the hospital but I never equated it to reneron wd.  Myabe it was??  I am planning on doing it again, in a few months.  Good Luck!