Cruizer: sertraline / Zoloft nightmare

[Cruizer]

12 hours ago, WackoSirJacko said:

Dude,

 

From reading your last few posts it seems that you have just lost control a bit. You're panicking and reading too much and spiralling into mania. Your mind is desperately trying to find a solution to everything all at once and it's driving you crazy. You need to hold your hand up to your brain and shout STOP! Stop thinking of compound tablets, stop trying to understand it, stop trying to work it out. I've totally been there. Try to slowly gain back control. Firstly, accept you are where you are. Accept you are in a bad wave and that you don't entirely know why. Then realise in yourself that it's ok not to entirely know why. Slowly reduce the panic you have. The stress hormones are flooding into your bloodstream, that's all it is. Making absolutely everything 20 times worse than it is. Don't expect it to stabilise immediately. Just try to stem the flow at first by accepting you feel horrendous.

 

Next you need to start introducing the idea to your mind that it will get better. Because it will. And that you don't need to do anything to let that happen. You don't need to change dose, you don't need to research, you just need to accept the horrible feeling and know that it will pass. Because it will pass. You don't need to understand compound pharma stuff, you just need to do the same that hundreds of successful taperers have done. Read some success stories and reinforce the FACT in your mind that there is an end to this hell. 

 

Sleep - accept what you get. Accept that you are tossing and turning. Accept that you are awake and tell your brain you don't care. YOU ARE NOT SCARED. Eventually you will just drift off and sleep WILL come back slowly. Be happy to just lie there with your eyes closed, not caring whether you sleep or not.

 

DRIVE THESE POSITIVE THOUGHTS into your mind religiously, DISMISS the negative and harmful thoughts as untruths. Your brain is scanning for a reason why you feel so bad, scanning to justify the stress hormones. If all it finds is positive thoughts and the negative is dismissed, the message will get back to your hypocampus to turn off the stress hormones.

 

All that's happened is youve got yourself into a thought spiral of fear making you worse and worse. That's all. You've just got to reverse the process.

Hi Buddy,

 

Thank you very much for sending me such a detailed message. You are right with all of what you have said. It has been a tough 6 months and when I started to taper again and then felt the panic feelings start to surface I went into defence mode and began feeling hopeless about ever getting better and ever getting off of this poison.

I really needed to hear what you wrote above and I thank you my friend.

The good thing is all those years of issues I had before I knew it was the medication doing a lot of it, I did a heap of CBT with a psychologist. He basically was just following on from Claire Weekes so I have read all of her books and have a few of her cd's. I really haven't done a lot to help myself in the last few months so I am going to put a few things in place like regularly meditating, and working on a good sleep routine. My sleep issues are compounded by the fact that I have 2 small boys 2.5 and 6 months. Both wake several times during the night which interrupts a good night sleep. My wife has been an angel the past few days allowing me to sleep in another room while she attends to both, but this can't be always the case.

Again thank you very much for your in depth suggestions. That is the best thing about this forum, it connects people who help each other.

Cheers

[WackoSirJacko]

8 hours ago, Cruizer said:

Hi Buddy,

 

Thank you very much for sending me such a detailed message. You are right with all of what you have said. It has been a tough 6 months and when I started to taper again and then felt the panic feelings start to surface I went into defence mode and began feeling hopeless about ever getting better and ever getting off of this poison.

I really needed to hear what you wrote above and I thank you my friend.

The good thing is all those years of issues I had before I knew it was the medication doing a lot of it, I did a heap of CBT with a psychologist. He basically was just following on from Claire Weekes so I have read all of her books and have a few of her cd's. I really haven't done a lot to help myself in the last few months so I am going to put a few things in place like regularly meditating, and working on a good sleep routine. My sleep issues are compounded by the fact that I have 2 small boys 2.5 and 6 months. Both wake several times during the night which interrupts a good night sleep. My wife has been an angel the past few days allowing me to sleep in another room while she attends to both, but this can't be always the case.

Again thank you very much for your in depth suggestions. That is the best thing about this forum, it connects people who help each other.

Cheers

No worries dude,

 

The support is always here. You got this!

[WackoSirJacko]

On 10/10/2018 at 12:28 AM, Cruizer said:

Hi Buddy,

 

Thank you very much for sending me such a detailed message. You are right with all of what you have said. It has been a tough 6 months and when I started to taper again and then felt the panic feelings start to surface I went into defence mode and began feeling hopeless about ever getting better and ever getting off of this poison.

I really needed to hear what you wrote above and I thank you my friend.

The good thing is all those years of issues I had before I knew it was the medication doing a lot of it, I did a heap of CBT with a psychologist. He basically was just following on from Claire Weekes so I have read all of her books and have a few of her cd's. I really haven't done a lot to help myself in the last few months so I am going to put a few things in place like regularly meditating, and working on a good sleep routine. My sleep issues are compounded by the fact that I have 2 small boys 2.5 and 6 months. Both wake several times during the night which interrupts a good night sleep. My wife has been an angel the past few days allowing me to sleep in another room while she attends to both, but this can't be always the case.

Again thank you very much for your in depth suggestions. That is the best thing about this forum, it connects people who help each other.

Cheers

How you doing Cruizer?

 

I tried giving up vaping and the lack of nicotine gave me depression then I crashed!

 

Oh well.

[Cruizer]

6 hours ago, WackoSirJacko said:

How you doing Cruizer?

 

I tried giving up vaping and the lack of nicotine gave me depression then I crashed!

 

Oh well.

Hi Wacko. Things are better than what they were 7-8 weeks ago when I was in real trouble. I have not been tapering at all and don't plan to again for another couple of months at least. I am still having waves and windows but each period my symptoms are changing. For example, 6-8 weeks ago I was having real problems with anxiety and cortisol spikes in the morning. Then the next wave I had was more depression. Now my main symptom is anhedonia and irritation. One thing that I did do which is why I have not been on here much is I created a word document where I copied and pasted the good information I found on here as well as other research etc. This helped me as I was able to refer back to this document when I was feeling a bit crappy rather than wasting hours on the internet where I was reading about people struggling etc. which was then adding to my anxiety.

I have really come to grips in the last couple of months that this is going to be a long journey. I am almost at 10% of my original dose which is huge, but I am only 2 and 3/4 year in so I still have a long way to go. For the moment, I am functional at work and at home and am having some decent windows so I accept that this is progress and that things should continue to improve.

 

I am sorry you are feeling crappy at the moment. Have you still been tapering? Is the nicotine withdrawal the reason for your crash or was it a combination of things?

Remember our systems are on high alert and very fragile. Any major change whether it is a change in diet or stopping nicotine, the effects of withdrawal will increase any effects we might have had so take things slowly. I feel I would be the same if I gave up caffeine. As always take care my friend.

[Cruizer]

It is coming up to 3 years in February since I started the painful process of tapering off Zoloft after being on it for just over 6 years. I have come from 150mg in Feb 2016 to my current dose of 17mg. This journey has been much harder and longer than I ever imagined as most of you would be fully aware. This last 12 months has been particularly hard after a crash in Feb 2018 and then an attempt to drop again in August before properly stabilizing which sent me into another crash. I have learnt a great deal along the way and have still managed to function and continue to work a fulltime job as well as raise 2 kids under 3. My symptoms fluctuate in intensity as well as type as time goes by. I certainly have hit the cliff that is spoken about when getting down to the lower levels of meds. When I look back it was relatively comfortable (not ideal) getting down to the 20mg mark.

I have had a decent couple of months of stability despite being in a small wave at the moment. I am having longer windows and can feel my enthusiasm for living becoming greater during those windows. The waves are more disinterest, irritation and fatigue now. Some depression is present but this is only normally a few days at a time and then it goes. Early morning cortisol spikes seem to have past for the moment which is a good sign I am stabilising. I plan to stay at 17mg for at least another couple of months to try and really consolidate my stability and then go slowly from there.

I no longer look at an end date, I simply look for improvement in quality of life and once I believe I am in a good position with many months of good windows, I will look to drop again.

If someone reads this that is looking for advice, the two things I would say is take it extremely slowly (think years not months) not really a new idea but it is the most important advice you will get from this site. The other is remember that despite this part of your life being difficult, withdrawal does not last forever if you taper slowly. 4-8 years of tapering is still only a small portion of your life. Look forward to better times once you are med free. All the best!

[Rachellynn]

I’m glad you are coming out of this nightmare. I’ve messed up so many times i just don’t have much hope right now. Insomnia is getting the best of me. 

 

Good luck❤️

Edited February 14, 2019 by ChessieCat
reworded obscenity

[Cruizer]

Made a bit of a discovery today which I wanted to share on here and pass on. EXERCISE go easy!!!!!!

There is a thread on here that talks about exercise and the affects it has on people in WD. I have played football basically all my life as well as other sports and physical activities well before I started antidepressants and during my time on and tapering off them. In the past two years my football has been interrupted due to two broken collarbones (same collarbone in 12 months). This meant that I lost all my aerobic fitness at stages and had to start from base level again... twice.

My past 2-3 months have been quite reasonable in terms of my symptoms. I had a good Christmas period and had about a 6 week window. Then about 2 weeks ago I went for my first run in about 8 months in preparation for pre-season football. I only ran for about 15 minutes continuously but I was absolutely stuffed by the end and had very sore legs for about 2-3 days after. About 1 day after the run I had quite a severe wave hit me. It seemed to come from nowhere and I was extremely flat and depressed. I went for another run about 5 days later and again the wave spiked for about a 4 day period. I held off doing any more and I came good. Then about 4 days into feeling good I went for another solid run following it up with a pretty heavy weight lifting session. Within a day and a half I was smashed with symptoms again and I began questioning whether the running was having an impact. So I went back through my daily journals as I remembered about 12 months ago really struggling when I first started running again. Turns out it was pretty clear cut from what I had written down. Every time I would go for a strenuous run or play a game of football which obviously is quite physically demanding, I would be hit with an increase in symptoms about 1-2 days later. This started to improve a little when I began regaining some fitness after about 8 weeks, but then I broke my collarbone again and stopped running all together.

On the thread here regarding exercise it is clear that it affects everyone at different levels. Some can only manage a 20 minute walk, some can only do gentle yoga.

I guess I am lucky in the fact that I still lift weights twice a week and feel ok after, plus I can walk a golf course and play without too many issues. However the high intensity running seems too much for my fragile Nervous system at the moment. I plan to let this wave of symptoms subside hopefully over the next day or so and then try one more run and see the result. I think I already might no the answer though.

[RachelSusan]

Hi Cruizer,

Thanks for the good advice. My journey has been similar to yours and what you have said in your posts really resonate with me.  I wanted to wish you well as you continue to taper. We will get through this and life will continue.  Thanks again for all the many well thought out posts.

Warm wishes,

Rachel

[Carmie]

Hi Cruizer, 

 

How are you doing?💚

Edited March 20, 2019 by Carmie
Typo

[Cruizer]

16 hours ago, Carmie said:

Hi Cruizer, 

 

How are you doing?💚

Not too bad. Still up and down but a lot less severe downs. Looking back on my journals it appears that I have stabilized a great deal in the last 3 months from a crash in September/October. It looks like I had quite severe symptoms for around 6-8 weeks after crash and then since then have been up and down with what seems to be much more like apathy/dysphoria. Again this is up and down. Looks like I have about 2 ordinary weeks of being flat and disinterested in doing much and then 2 weeks of having quite mild symptoms and being more myself. The good thing is aside from when I over did it with running, the real severe days are few and far between.

I am kind of ready to start tapering again, however I am going to hold a while longer simply because I have some life stressors at the moment that I feel would compound withdrawal.

I have an 11 month old son that wakes every couple of hours at night so sleep is a little poor. I am also looking into buying into the business I work for and there is a lot involved so I feel another 3-6 months at 17mg might be in order before I being to taper again.

The general feeling I have now and in the last 3 months or so is one that it could quite possibly the drug causing the issue/dysphoria. I believe this is quite a common side effect and a sign of poop out. Its been just over 9 years on this poison and I believe it probably pooped out a long time ago and I have been suffering with a combination of withdrawal in the early parts and then poop out/tolerence as the months go on. Does this make sense? I believe Brass Monkey explains this sensation quite well in his posts.

 

Any way thanks for checking in.

[Carmie]

Hi Cruizer, 

 

That’s great that you’ve been feeling a bit better. Good idea to hold longer too if you’re going through stresses. I’ve sometimes done really long holds after I’ve stabilised because I had important events coming up, or because I just wanted a break from tapering. 

 

I love your positive attitude, that you no longer look for an end date, that you simply look for the improvement in the quality of life, that you’re in no hurry. Yes, slow and steady really is the way to go, trying to rush our taper doesn’t get us anywhere faster as we will only end up in  bigger waves and we have to hold longer anyway. I don’t look for an end date either, I just focus on each day as it comes and  look at the positives in that day. I hold as long as I need to before I do much next taper. 

 

You’ve done really well so far coming down from 150mg. Keep up the good work!💚

[Cruizer]

Hello all. Looking for a bit of advice and guidance in relation to tachyphylaxis or more commonly know as "Poop Out"

 

I started tapering off of Zoloft 3 years and 2 months ago. I was at 150mg and had floated between 100 and 150mg for about 6 years.

One important thing I need to note is that once the initial craziness of going on these meds subsided (around 3 months) I had a period of about 12 months where I felt relatively normal. Then I began to feel the anxiety and symptoms start to creep in again and I returned to my doctor who referred me to a Psychiatrist who pushed me up to 150mg.

Again after the initial shock of going up I felt ok for a further 6-12 months. I then began cycling through waves of symptoms. I would be good for 3 weeks and then have a terrible week. This continued for the next 4-5 years. The only time this seemed to change was when I changed dosage. I mainly felt better going back down to 100mg.

 

Since I have started tapering, I immediately felt better. Unfortunately I got too excited and began tapering too fast crashing as 60mg after withdrawing from 150-60 in 5 months.

 

Now here is the important part. Since then (July 2016) I have held 3 times for periods of 6 months or more. Each time I held because of an extreme rise in withdrawal symptoms. However what I found with all 3 holds was after the initial 6-8 weeks in which it took to settle down, I would have a period of another 6-8 weeks of feeling pretty decent. Then around the 4 month mark I began to notice the apathy and disinterest creep in. It would start as half a day apathetic then a lift for the rest of the day. It wasn't the extreme swings (waves and windows) of the acute withdrawal, it was just a complete loss of interest and motivation as well as feeling completely numb to emotions. I found the longer I held the worse this was getting until (in all 3 holds) I began to taper again which I found gave me an instant lift in mood, motivation and just simply quality of life.

Last time I "crashed" in September last year (cortisol spikes in the morning, vomiting/nausea, anxiety) it took about 6-8 weeks to quieten down. I figured I will try to hold for a long period of 6-8 months to see if this would help lift all symptoms and make me feel normal again. I had a good Christmas period and start to the year of about 8 weeks. Then gradually I noticed once again the disinterest/apathy/no motivation/numbness start to creep in. The longer I have held at 17mg (current dose) the worse this has gotten. I have been holding on 17mg since September which is now 7 months. I have also only dropped 2mg since February 2018 which is 14 months. Aside from the 6-8 weeks of acute withdrawal I have predominately been struggling with apathy/motivation etc. and it is getting worse.

 

Looking through Brass Monkey's comments on the TAO of Brass Monkey thread; he mentions about tachyphylais or "poop out" and that this is related to withdrawal but not the same. He also mentions that the only way out of this is to taper down. The longer the hold the worse it gets. This strikes me as very similar to my situation and also rings alarm bells from way back when I first started and had to go up after 12 months on the drugs. Looking at all my journals and daily logging of symptoms, I am seeing this pattern clearly.

I think I am at the stage where I need to start tapering again! I think the main symptoms I am having are drug induced reactions from Poop Out etc.

This is where I would love some input?????

 

My plan with tapering from here is to drop 0.5mg per 4 weeks (about 3%) to start with. I may increase this to every 3 weeks depending on how I feel.

It will still be a long slow taper so don't worry, I will not be jumping off quickly. I appreciate any input from @Altostrata@brassmonkey and any other moderators/experienced campaigners. Thanks heaps.

 

 

[brassmonkey]

11 hours ago, Cruizer said:

I found the longer I held the worse this was getting until (in all 3 holds) I began to taper again which I found gave me an instant lift in mood, motivation and just simply quality of life.

 

Hi Cruizer--  That's your key statement right there.  This looks like classic poopout to me. There are two ways to get out of poopout, that's either up or down.  Increasing your dose should make the symptoms milder, but the affect will only last a short time, a few months to a year and then you'll poopout again and be stuck at a higher dose.  To me the only real option is to taper, and your taper plan looks like a good one.  It's possible that you will feel better right away, but I wouldn't expect it. 

 

Because of the nature of poopout it can take quite a while for your body to figure out what is going on and respond in a positive manner.  I was in very hard core poopout and had to taper for about two and a half years before I really noticed any positive results, but this was a "worst case scenario".  Your descriptions leads me to think you should have a better time of it. That's not to say it will be easy, symptoms while tapering during poopout can be very unpredictable.

 

What happens during poopout is that there is a fight going on between your body wanting to return to normal and the drug wanting to control things.  Increase the drug and it starts to "win" and remains in control.  Decrease the drug and the body starts to "win" and works slowly to return to its natural state.  But to do so it has a lot of 'repair work' to do while still fighting the drug.  At first this happens very slowly, but as the drug is decreased the body gets more and more of an upper hand until it is clear who is in control. All this time the symptoms can be all over the place as small repairs are made here and there.

 

This isn't intended to scare you about poopout, but rather to let you know to expect things to be unpredictable for a while and it may not seem like you're making headway, when in fact you are.

 

Best of luck with your taper and please keep us informed.

 

Brassmonkey

[Cruizer]

Thank you very much for replying brass monkey. Your detail is much appreciated and confirms what I was thinking. Hope your travelling well my friend, and please know that your information on here is invaluable to so many of us. Cheers

[Cruizer]

Update from me. I dropped by half a mg from 17mg to 16.5mg on the 17th of April. As mentioned in the months leading up to this drop, I had been seeing a gradual increase in apathy and motivation sliding. I was irritable most of the time and this is the pattern I had noticed each time I held for a long period (5-7months). It was pretty clear that what I was experiencing is a drug side effect and poopout.

Since dropping I felt the usual head symptoms straight away on the first day. This subsided after a couple of days and within a week I noticed a significant lift in my mood, motivation and general zest for life. This is very common I find after a drop.

This lasted for 11 days and on day 20 from my drop I have seen a significant increase in nausea, morning cortisol spikes and general anxiety. I have lost my appetite and feel quite rattled.

These symptoms are common in my journey through withdrawal and when I drop doses, especially since I have hit 20mg and lower. I am not sure whether I really have a question here, I am just a little disgruntled and overwhelmed that a .5mg drop which is about 3% has resulted in this. It has only been 2 days of these symptoms so I am hoping this is just a small period of increase in symptoms and my body recognising the drop. Realistically I can't go any slower than I have been going. Unfortunately it simply looks like this will be the way for me through my taper. I am hoping like @brassmonkey has said in his comments above that the symptoms will be unpredictable until the body works out what is going on and is the clear winner against the meds which is common in poop out. I find a common period of about the 3 week mark of a drop I get an increase in symptoms almost within a day. I hate this but I guess my only way is down and to keep going. Brass you are so wise and your input is always appreciated.

Through your withdrawal in poopout and others you have worked with in poopout, do you find what I am going through very common? I feel that if I just hold I am simply prolonging the suffering and perhaps making those initial few drops in doses worse.

Holding a drop helps stop the waves of anxiety and cortisol spikes but does nothing for my quality of life and feelings of apathy and motivation. These waves tend not to last more than a week. The worst being about 12 days. Then I feel a rise in mood and motivation again. Should I expect this and continue anyway?

[nick1990]

Hi mate, i haven't read through your whole thread but i'm going to say what has come to my attention. 

 

I know BrassMonkey has said that what your'e going through is most likely tolerance, and he is far wiser than i am and has many more years experience than i do in regards to this topic. 

 

However, looking at your timeline you've made some huge drops in past couple of years. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if what your experiencing during those hold periods are WD symptoms. Ones that have been catching up on you from all the previous stress your CNS has been through. Im no expert, but to say you feel better after your drop and then plummet into nausea, cortisol spikes and anxiety weeks after. That to me, seems like a CNS response that your either going too fast or doing too big drops, OR that your CNS has not reached a place of stability from your previous fast tapering. 

 

From my experience, until i am stable, i cant reduce or make any changes to my dose, no matter how small. And stability takes months for some of us. This is why i feel its so important to go slow and listen to your body the whole way through this process. 

 

Do you understand what im getting at? The apathy and demotivation can also be a WD symptom! Its so important to think as critically as we can about our individual situations. People tend to get an idea in their head of what is causing something and stick with it. Whether it be tolerance or WD. If you believe that your in tolerance but are actually in WD then things can get pretty messy pretty fast. 

 

Like i said earlier in this post, im not an expert on the topic, but it could be something to think about. @brassmonkey, what are your thoughts on the anxiety, cortisol spikes and nausea, weeks after the reduction?  

[nick1990]

Cruiser, i just had a read over some of your older posts - What i have said above might not be valid in your situation. However id be interested to see what Tom or one of the other moderators think of the increase in symptoms a few weeks after your last drop. 

All the best 

[Cruizer]

Hi Nick,

Appreciate anyone weighing on my situation. Your first post was where I was at September last year. I said to myself, this could just be withdrawal catching up to me. It could be that I was not stabilised enough to drop again. So I held for 7 months again!!! The severe up and downs lasted about 6-8 weeks. and these were 5-12 days of anxiety/cortisol spikes and nausea followed by 1-2 weeks of relatively mild symptoms. After that 6-8 weeks I had some pretty decent times. I did not have a severe episode for over 40 days and was in good spirits.

Then things started to slide slowly but more into apathy/no motivation/numbness. This got progressively worse over a 3 months period until I started to taper again.

This is now the 3rd time I have done this little test where I have held for a long period of 5-7 months. Each time an identical result.

What I think is that now I am down below 20mg which for Sertraline is under half the "therapeutic" dose, I am at the "bell curve" we talk about where the receptor population is dramatically decreased with each small drop. I think for some of the unlucky people (me being one of them) once the lower doses are reached, there is no real way of getting around some discomfort not matter how slow you taper. I think there could be a remarkable difference with tapering normally and tapering out of poop out so to speak. For me being on this single drug for coming up 10 years this October, I think Poop Out probably happened a while ago.

The other thing is I have only dropped 2 mg. (Now 2.5mg) since Feb 2018 which is 15 months. I would have stabilised by now if it was withdrawal.

This whole thing sucks and I know it does everyone else on here too. One day in the not so distant future I hope antidepressants become public knowledge of the pure evil they are.

Unfortunately still to this day I have friends being prescribed them. I warn them but I am just a mate and not a doctor!

 

[brassmonkey]

15 hours ago, Cruizer said:

in his comments above that the symptoms will be unpredictable until the body works out what is going on and is the clear winner against the meds which is common in poop out. I find a common period of about the 3 week mark of a drop I get an increase in symptoms almost within a day. I hate this but I guess my only way is down and to keep going.

 

You detailed notes on timing are quite helpful and really indicate that this is indeed poopout.  Doing better and then running into a sharp increase in symptoms is very telling indeed.  Because of the nature of poopout long holds can be counter productive as they allow the drug to "regroup" and start to get the upper hand again.  It looks to me that you should be doing your next reduction  before the end of the 3 weeks while you're still feeling okay.  This should minimize the symptoms, but keep you moving downward at a reasonable rate.  I think you will be pleasantly surprised, once you've worked past the poopout, that things will really start looking up, but things could remain rocky and unpredictable for a while yet.

[brassmonkey]

Hi Nick--  Thanks for adding your support, that's what SA is all about, members helping members. Your post prompted me to do another review of Cruizer's history.  

 

The big swings in dosage happened back at the beginning of 2016  have had several years to sort themselves out aided by a nice hold at the end of 2016. The taper done during 2017 and the beginning of 2018 was quite aggressive and didn't have enough hold periods and could have caused a backlog of symptoms.  It was followed by a 6 months hold which would have help settle all that out.  The pattern that Cruizer mentions with his "test periods" is what is tipping me off about the poopout. This pattern is being mirrored in a smaller manner with his latest descriptions and is classic poopout.

 

Until the reductions have caused enough healing there will be a strong recurrence of the symptoms several weeks after a reduction.  That's not to say that the reduction will be symptom free, it won't.  That's a problem with tapering out of poopout and tapering in general, there will always be symptoms.  We just try to keep them as mild as possible.

[Cruizer]

7 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

 

You detailed notes on timing are quite helpful and really indicate that this is indeed poopout.  Doing better and then running into a sharp increase in symptoms is very telling indeed.  Because of the nature of poopout long holds can be counter productive as they allow the drug to "regroup" and start to get the upper hand again.  It looks to me that you should be doing your next reduction  before the end of the 3 weeks while you're still feeling okay.  This should minimize the symptoms, but keep you moving downward at a reasonable rate.  I think you will be pleasantly surprised, once you've worked past the poopout, that things will really start looking up, but things could remain rocky and unpredictable for a while yet.

 

Holy moly Batman! Brass firstly thank you once again for giving your input. I had such a bad night last night and could not sleep and when I did drop off for an hour or so I was having vivid images / dreams and calling stuff out in my sleep. Really weird and then I woke this morning with huge cortisol spike and vomited! I was seriously dreading the future if this is what I had to put up with if I tapered and would have to hold again for a long time. I was saying to myself 'how the hell is this right, I am holding and dropping 3% and still getting smashed, I may be not able to do this after all."

What you have said above is something that I have pondered myself, but really didn't want to risk continuing to taper if it compounded everything and made things worse which is the general consensus on here in regards to withdrawal. I felt the safer road would be to do some long holds and see if this helped.  But I have consistently said within a few days to a week of a drop I feel a massive shift in mood and all symptoms to more positive. I couldn't work out why this happened but then I would get smashed a couple of weeks later around that 3rd week mark. I always simply thought this was withdrawal catching up but this time when I only made a small drop after such a lengthy hold (7 months) and then was smashed again, I thought this did not seem right! I am 34 years old and although I have been on this for 9 years, I thought I would have a better time of coming off because of my age and general good health.

Your suggestion to continue to taper and a little quicker fills me with great hope again. If your theory is right and you have seen this before, then I will be forever in debt to you.

The idea of the drug building back up again and causing the initial common symptoms of Nausea, Anxiety, cortisol spikes and insomnia does make total sense if the drug is the problem which in Poop Out it is. I have always had problems on this medication so have always thought that the meds are causing my issues and not so much withdrawal. I guess when my symptoms spike after 3 weeks and I am all over the shop, I didn't want to "do anymore damage" by continuing to taper. But now it looks like I was actually doing more damage by holding; how ironic. Thanks again @brassmonkey, I will keep in contact to give you some updates along the way.

 

[Cruizer]

Hi All, update from me...

My last post at the start of May was as I discovered through Brass Monkey's help that I may need to taper quicker/more regularly than I had been to avoid the drug building back up in my system and causing a spike in symptoms. This is due to the me appearing to be in classic poop out.

Since this time I have had some decent success with doing this. After my long 7 month hold and a small drop of 0.5mg which was about 3% and then being smashed with severe symptoms after 3 weeks of the drop; I had managed to drop a further 2.5mg with relatively no problems. This was me dropping 0.5mg every 2 weeks and seemingly avoiding the "build up" of Zoloft again by waiting any longer before the next drop. I actually had the best 6-8 week period I have had in about 2 years which was really promising.

In the last week however I have noticed a steady increase in apathy and being less motivated. Things just seemed tough to do. In the past 2 months I have had some small periods of this but this was generally fixed by the next drop in my taper. This time however this started to arise when I was still 1 week from my next taper and eventually progressed into my first severe day yesterday in 63 days. Then last night I woke at about 3am with the dreaded cortisol spikes and restless sleep with vivid dreams. I woke this morning and vomited and now feel very fatigued. and drained. These symptoms are exactly what I was getting when I would taper but then hold too long. So this leads me to suspect I may still not be tapering quite fast enough to avoid the build up of meds again. In the last 2 months I have been tapering 0.5mg every 2 weeks which is still only 3.5% or 7% in 4 weeks. Have had some real positive results in this 2 months. Still have some symptoms daily but mostly mild and my enthusiasm and even my memory seemed to be improving greatly. But the last 10 days has been poor again and now I have found 2 severe days in a row. I only dropped 4 days ago so I am hoping this will kick in today or in the next couple and I will see a lift. I am thinking though I might do another drop in the next 4 or 5 days and see if I can "get ahead" of this poop out as mentioned in the below comments from @brassmonkey that "until reductions have caused enough healing there will be a strong recurrence of symptoms several weeks after a reduction".

 

On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 4:37 AM, brassmonkey said:

Hi Nick--  Thanks for adding your support, that's what SA is all about, members helping members. Your post prompted me to do another review of Cruizer's history.  

 

The big swings in dosage happened back at the beginning of 2016  have had several years to sort themselves out aided by a nice hold at the end of 2016. The taper done during 2017 and the beginning of 2018 was quite aggressive and didn't have enough hold periods and could have caused a backlog of symptoms.  It was followed by a 6 months hold which would have help settle all that out.  The pattern that Cruizer mentions with his "test periods" is what is tipping me off about the poopout. This pattern is being mirrored in a smaller manner with his latest descriptions and is classic poopout.

 

Until the reductions have caused enough healing there will be a strong recurrence of the symptoms several weeks after a reduction.  That's not to say that the reduction will be symptom free, it won't.  That's a problem with tapering out of poopout and tapering in general, there will always be symptoms.  We just try to keep them as mild as possible.

 

[Cruizer]

Hi All,

 

Update from me. I have progressed down to 12.5mg and am dropping tomorrow to 12mg. It has been an interesting last month and one that feels like great change is happening.

I did a couple of quicker drops (0.5mg every 10 days) which was more at the 10% every 4 week mark. Up and down through that period but nothing too severe.

I have now changed back to dropping 0.5mg every 14 days which at present is a tad under 10% every 4 weeks.

There is some good and some not so good results up until now, but it is like I can feel the change happening.

The good results are that anxiety and the dreaded morning cortisol spikes have been relatively minimal. I used to find after 3 weeks of a drop a large increase in anxiety and cortisol spikes which of course came with insomnia for periods would start. Since taking Brass Monkeys advice of tapering faster so the meds don't "build back up", this has changed. I would say I have probably had 3-4 occasions of early morning cortisol spikes in about 3 months. My sleep is fairly solid (aside from my kids waking me) sleeping about 7 hours a night and waking around 6am every morning from my kids with my pulse being at my normal range. This is a major win as those symptoms are what I find to be the hardest to deal with.

The not so good is the pretty severe fatigue I am getting. That along with what I call head symptoms (bit of pressure around the temples and also brain fog) are the most common symptoms I have and are now quite regular each day. I do have some days where depression arises quite severe but these are maybe once every 2 weeks. The apathy a motivation is still quite prevalent but I feel this has a lot to do with the fatigue I experience and still in the midst of Poop Out. I still find that about half and hour to an hour after I take my tablet in the morning to be when I feel these symptoms start to arise. By the time late afternoon hits I am normally feeling better and am more productive at work and engaged at home.

I do have feelings of disconnection also at times but I think this is also signs of things changing. My appetite is ok also and I eat most meals fairly easily. I wouldn't say I am hungry but food does not repulse me like it can in severe wave I have had in the past.

In summary I would say my "Withdrawal Normal" is quite fatigued with apathy and not much motivation. This fluctuate through each day with some real clear periods thrown in there.

My plan is to continue tapering at 0.5mg per fortnight until I am down to 7 or 8 mg. and see where I am at then. As of tomorrow I will be sitting at 8% of my original dose when I started tapering 3.5 years ago. I have come along way and I am hoping in about 12-15 months I will be off this poison and can let the healing continue without interference from the drug.

I wish everyone the best of luck with there journeys to healing.

 

[RachelSusan]

Hi Cruizer,

 

Thanks for the update. I really appreciate it when a long distance runner/taperer checks in.  I have been interested in your tapering schedule because we are both tapering Sertraline.  I've been tapering since July 2016 and I think you might have been here when I arrived, if not then at least somewhere around that time.

 

I am pleased to see you are getting of the drug.  I know you still have some symptoms you are dealing with but at least your cortisol spikes have stopped. It is a long and difficult road we have walked and we still have further to go, but there is no doubt in my mind that both of us will make it off. I want to wish you luck and good health as you move towards your goal. 

 

Warm wishes,

Rachel

 

 

[Cruizer]

Hi All, I hope everyone reading this is "surviving" and keeping up the good fight!

 

I have not posted for over 3 months so I thought it was about time I gave a quick update.

 

The last 3 months have been really positive for me. I have continued tapering at a rate of 0.5mg every 2 weeks and will be at 8mg as of tomorrow.

 

I don't want to "jinx" myself but so far what Brass Monkey has described in the above comments about "Poop Out" and once you get passed it things start to improve is extremely accurate. The past 8-10 weeks period has been the best I have felt since beginning to taper almost 4 years ago. I have started training again with football and the exercise seems to not bother me as much as it once did in terms of increase in symptoms. I feel optimistic about life and have really enjoyed interacting with my 2 young boys. I have been busy at work and am about to start up a business venture with my work which is super exciting. Don't get me wrong, there is still symptoms most days but they are much more milder. I can't remember the last time I had a big cry for no reason and all the little things that seemed so hard to do a few months back don't bother me much at all.

Like I said I still have a way to go but so far since beginning to taper again in April this year I have dropped from 17mg down to 8mg. and have felt much better for it.

 

I am hoping in the next 8-12 months I will be off of Zoloft and put the last 10 years of drugging behind me.

I hope everyone is doing well and please enjoy the Christmas period. I wish everyone the best of luck in their journeys.

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by ChessieCat
spacing

[Cruizer]

Hi all,

 

I hope everyone who reads this is "surviving" and pushing through.

 

Just wanted to post here to mark the 4 year mark for me. As of tomorrow it will be 4 years since I began my tapering journey with many bumps and bruises along the way.

 

I have learnt a lot in the past 4 years and I am still know where near to being in the clear yet, but I believe I am on the right path now and am still very hopeful that in the next 6 or so months I will be off of Zoloft and will further heal without the presence of the drug that I have now been on for a little over 10 years.

 

For those interested, my main symptoms continue to be fatigue, irritation and some lack of enthusiasm, however these symptoms come and go. Some days it hardly bothers me at all and I am just living my life. Other days it comes for a few hours and then goes. I had a period around Christmas time where I had about 4 bad days including a day where I vomited in the morning and had severe cortisol spikes. But within a few days I was fine again so I just put this down to a slight bump and my brain making a few changes that didn't quite agree with me. That small period was the only one I have had like it in about 8 months  and fingers crossed this continue as I move closer to zero.

 

Since beginning to taper at a consistent pace of 0.5mg per 2 weeks in May last year, I have seen a good improvement in my symptoms overall and the days are much easier to get through than when I was holding for long periods (6 months etc.) which was identified by Brass Monkey as Poop out. My daily journal/records highlight this very clearly.

 

 

Much love to all here. I look forward to hopefully keeping you updated with more success as the months move on.

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by ChessieCat
spacing

[RachelSusan]

@Cruizer

 

Hi Cruizer,

 

Thank you for the update.  I identify with a lot of what you went through and are currently going through.  I too am doing a taper off of Zoloft.  And just like you said I have endured quite a few bumps and bruises along the way. I currently have three and a half years of tapering under my belt.  Reading your update means a lot to me since we appears to be on similar paths. I wish you continued success.

 

Many thanks for the post.

 

Rachel

[Cruizer]

Hi All, this update is not as nice as my previous updates unfortunately. I had been going really well from basically 17mg. Down to 4.5mg of Zoloft tapering at .5mg every 2 weeks. This meant that i ha e dropped around 12mg in 11 months. My overall symptoms were much less and judging by my daily journal and rating scale, I was doing significantly better including having only 7 severe days in 7 months. I was feeling much better.. not awesome but my WD normal was quite mild. 

 

This was until about 3 weeks ago when it gradually turned. I started feeling slightly more irritated and angry than I normally am and then around 8 days ago started getting pounding headaches and feelings in my head that felt like my brain was on a rotisserie. This has followed with some quite severe days of depression and nausea as well as simply not wanting to do much at all. 

 

However in the 3 months leading up to this, I had the best window I have had since beginning to taper! And aside from a poor week in December had another solid 3 months before that. So pretty much from 10mg. Down to 4.5mg I have been feeling better and better. Until now..... @brassmonkey you were an amazing with helping me identify poop out about 12 months ago, and honestly without your help i would still probably be at a much higher dose. Everything you said has basically come true. This now though.... could it be a glitch, a wave as such? Could I have gone too fast and this is now in fact withdrawal rather the  withdrawal being caused by poop out? Symptoms are similar aside from this my head is pounding but no cortisol spikes in the mornings. What should I do? I'm thinking maybe slowing down a bit. Say .5mg every 3 or 4 weeks instead of every 2. But this scares me as in the past if I wait for 3 weeks or more the drug has caught back up and I get smashed with drug symptoms. Any advice is appreciate mate. At my current 4.5mg I am at 3% of my dose that I started tapering from back over 4 years ago which was 150mg. Should I just keep going ?? Cheers

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by ChessieCat
spacing

[brassmonkey]

Hi Cruizer-- good to see you, it's been a while. Sorry to hear that things have started to fall apart it sounds like things were going pretty well. Glad I could be f help with the poopout thing.

 

Now you've got yourself a case of real WD. Not to worry, it's fixable.  There are two things wrong with the way you've been tapering.  Firstly it has been too fast with no hold time to let things stabilize.  Secondly you've been doing a linear taper of a set amount each reduction. The two are intertwined and feed of of each other.

 

Our recommended taper calls for a reduction every 4 weeks at the fastest. Many people can't go that fast.  Each time a person does a reduction they shake up the system.  The system then needs to settle down, readjust and because of the reduced amount of medication it can make changes to move more toward normal function.  For all this to happen takes between 4 and 8 weeks on average. Every person is a little bit different.  If that amount of time is not provided then the changes and repairs start to backlog and build up in an unresolved pile. When that pile gets too big it topples over and we have a crash.

 

The affects of these drugs on the body, the physical changes involving the nerve receptors follow a hyperbolic curve.  It's a common fact for most medications.  This curve, referred to as the SERT Occupancy curve shows that in the beginning a very small amount of drug makes a very large change in the body.  As the amount of drug increases the amount of change decreases. As we taper it is very important to follow this curve in the reverse direction. Which is where tapering by a percentage is required instead of reducing by a set amount.  Reducing by 10% each time creates a curve that very closely matches the SERT Occupancy curve.  Where as reducing by a set amount cuts the corners and drives straight across the curve. This leaves a lot of unresolved work that needs to be done.

 

The other problem with a linear taper is that each reduction is bigger than the last.  Your first reduction back in July was 5% your current reduction was 11%.  So each time you reduced your body is having to do more to catch up.  Using a percentage based taper each reduction actually get a little bit smaller making things a little bit easier each time.

 

Going too fast and at an ever increasing rate has produced a huge backlog of symptoms and adjustments that your body just can't handle any more. That's why you are now having trouble.  Your body will eventually be able to sort thing out, but for right now you need to hold for quite some time. A rough guess would be six months and possible more.  You should start to feel better as the time passes and you body has a chance to catch up.  If the symptoms are getting to the unbearable, totally debilitating stage then a small updose might help. I would try 4.6mgai and see how it goes.  The updose is not going to remove the symptoms, but should take the edge off and make them more bearable.

[Cruizer]

Thanks for your information @brassmonkey. Honestly I don't know where I would be without you and this site. It amazes me still to this day that when I go to get a script from a new doctor and mention that I get these compounded, they look at me like I am crazy for tapering so slowly, but yet still too fast for what is recommended here.  

 

I kind of knew that I was going faster than I should be but I was feeling good and just said to myself that when I start to feel a little average I will slow my rate down. I did not expect to fall off a cliff like I have! Lesson learned. I worked out that 10% every 4 weeks from when I was at 10mg would have taken 32 weeks to get to the dose I am at now. I did it in 20 weeks so probably no surprise this has eventually happened.

From previous times where I have crashed or gone a little fast, I have found it has taken around 6-8 weeks of pretty severe ups and downs before I feel a little better. I am interpreting what you have said above as holding for 6 months and not that it will take 6 months to feel stable? That scared me when I read that but then also read that you should feel better as time passes.

 

I am going to hold at 4.5mg for the next 3 months and re-evaluate then. The problem I will have is that my compounding pharmacist I believe can only do 0.5mg tablets at the lowest so I may need to break open a 0.5mg capsule and dissolve this in water to be able to drop slower than 0.5mg at a time.

 

One question I have Brass is how will I know when I start up again whether I am having WD or Poopout come back? In the past long holds have ended up with me feeling very apathetic etc. towards the end of them. Then when I begin to taper it is almost immediate that this lifts. But if I hold too long I get a sharp increase again which I thought was WD until you helped me identify this about 12 months ago as poop out. Do you think that because I am at such a lower dose I would have gone passed getting symptoms from poop out in the future? I am just worried that I am not going to be able to differentiate between poop out and WD and then do the wrong thing. I am fine and have accepted that I may still be on Zoloft for another 2-3 years but provided I am stable enough during that time. I think from what I have read from you in the past Brass, and from others on here, the closer you get to zero the more normal you begin to feel provided you are following the 10% guidelines? Would you say this statement is accurate? This would give me great hope and also give me the patience to get through this.

 

Again appreciate all the information you give me. What a scary thing this is! I feel so sorry for people that go through this and don't actually know what is going on with them because they are given the wrong information from doctors etc. The information I get from you Brass and this site gives me great hope that this is not a life sentence and that it will be over eventually. I am only 35 years old so by the time I get off this poison I still should have hopefully 40 odd years to go in my life and get to experience everything a normal life has to offer. My 2 young boys and my wife keep me focussed on that. Cheers

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by ChessieCat
removed quote and added space

[Cruizer]

Hi All, Thought I would check in here as it has now been 6 or so weeks since my last post. It has been an interesting 6-8 weeks since my last reduction. When I first read Brass Monkeys reply above I was very disheartened that this was happening to me. I then did a bit more looking around on here at things like stabilizing and low doses of meds and discovered that this is quite common here. I think when I first discovered that I was in poop out back 12 months ago and began to feel significantly better within a few months of tapering, I thought I had found the answer and that all my problems were related to poop out. I wrongly assumed that because I was under 10mg. of Zoloft which was like 6% of my original dose of 150mg, that I could just keep going at a steady 0.5mg every 2 weeks. But I have now found myself in a different state to poop out which is now WD.

What I can say and I hope this might help people if they read this, is that I have discovered that distressing symptoms related to Antidepressants can be put into 3 categories.

These symptoms can be similar in all 3 categories which is why it can be confusing to identify what is actually going on with you at any one time. But I have now been through all 3 and can tell the difference.

Category 1 is symptoms being directly caused by the side-effects of the medication. Generally these begin to ease as you get lower in the dose that you are on.

Category 2 is Poop Out which is being caused by your body trying to return to its natural state but being met with the medication. This generally comes once your receptors have fully down regulated to accommodate for the drugs. The only way out from here is up or down in dose. Up may give slight relief for a period but ultimately end in the same predicament, whereas down (tapering) allows your body to begin to win the battle.

Category 3 is Withdrawal. This is pretty self explanatory but basically your brain is struggling to function without the drug it has become accustomed to and you are getting symptoms because of it. Generally resulted from a fast taper or cold turkey. Varying degrees of severity dependant on the individual and also how quickly they tapered or quit.

 

I write above because it really has taken me to crash in my taper to discover all the differences. At the present time I am really struggling with major head symptoms, irritation, anger outbursts, brain fog, and also finding it hard to get motivated to do the simplest of tasks. However every day brings something different. Yesterday is never the same as today. It might be similar to a day last week but every day is something different. It is like my brain is filing through things attempting to get it right. I can have a window of 3-7 days of feeling pretty good, and then I can have a 2 week period of pretty ordinary with windows and waves in each day. The patterns are different from what I used to get in category 1 and 2.

 

Anyway, I came here to say that despite feeling crappy, I am pretty comfortable with where I am at and also with my understanding of what is happening. I do not live in fear of what is going on with me and whether I will ever get better. I can see the path people have taken to completely get off of these drugs successfully and it fills me with great hope. 

I used to always sit here thinking that until I get off of this completely, my life will suck! All this did was put me in a great big hurry and has brought me undone which ultimately means I will be on this for longer. Now I realise that some of the unsettling symptoms I used to get have actually diminished because I am on a lower dose. I am now not in such a hurry. Love to all.

[Cruizer]

 

MOD NOTE:  Please read last paragraph of post first.

 

Well fast forward 11 weeks and I thought I would be hear writing a positive update but sadly I am not.

I have now been holding since the middle of March this year which is 4 and a half months. In the initial couple of months symptoms were up and down and consisted of mainly head symptoms and irritation plus Brain fog. I had a really decent window of 18 days in late May to early June. Since then things have not really let up and I have found things have been getting worse. I firstly went through a few weeks of feeling quite depressed about what I had achieved from a sports level which I put down to having to retire from sport due to injury and some Neuro emotions making it worse. This was more than bearable. Than around 1 week ago I got absolutely smashed with head symptoms again. These rival 4 months ago when I crashed and I can't help but feel a little scared about them as I was assuming I would be well on my way to stabilizing by now. These head symptoms are major head pressure and feeling like my brain is being poked or shaken. I can barely concentrate and finding it hard to function at work etc.

My question @brassmonkey is do you think I am still in withdrawal and still have a time to stabilize? Or could the 18 day window at about the 10 week mark of my hold followed by progressively getting worse since be a sign of poopout again? I am not in any hurry to get off this poison and want to do the right thing. I am just looking for some advice on my next move. Do I sit it out and wait for another few months to see if it is withdrawal and it gets better, or do I make a small reduction (say from 4.5 down to 4.25mg 5.5%) and see if this lifts at all? I am honestly not in any hurry to keep tapering if that is not the answer. I just can't believe that these head symptoms in the last week are rivalling what it was 4 months ago. Thank you always for any input and help.

 

I will add in that in the past 5 weeks I have had two sessions of 5-10 alcoholic drinks where I was definitely intoxicated. I am wondering whether this might have had anything to do with it. . . it was at least 2 weeks between the last alcohol session and the head symptoms starting though.

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by ChessieCat
added mod note

[ChessieCat]

28 minutes ago, Cruizer said:

I will add in that in the past 5 weeks I have had two sessions of 5-10 alcoholic drinks where I was definitely intoxicated. I am wondering whether this might have had anything to do with it. . . it was at least 2 weeks between the last alcohol session and the head symptoms starting though.

 

That could well be the cause.  Especially if it is the only thing which happened.  If things worsened after the alcohol (regardless of the length of time between the alcohol and symptoms worsening) then I think holding for longer would be best.

[brassmonkey]

Drinking alcohol is the best way there is to derail a successful taper.

 

The "hangover" from alcohol is very unpredictable.  It can hit several days to several weeks later, and last for days or weeks, and can feel like it has set you back months.  The instability needs to be resolved before any more tapering should be attempted. I would give it a few weeks to settle down and then start up the taper again. Things may be a little more sensitive this time around so take it slow and listen to your body.

[Cruizer]

Thanks for the response Chessie and Brass. I have had a look back through my daily spreadsheet where I give detail about each day and I can see a pattern emerging where I have had some alcohol which has been followed by an increase in symptoms a week to 3 weeks later. It wasn't as bigger issue with smaller drops but seems to have become more prominent with the larger drops I was making which has probably contributed to some poor periods.

I do not drink alcohol as a way of coping, it is more of a social thing for me. I am in sales so tend to go to a few events and also am involved with a sports club where the normal thing to do after a game is to have a few beers. I will cut the drinking out for the next couple of months and be mindful that 1 or 2 beers is enough when I do decide to be social.

The plan I think will be to hold for another 6 weeks which will mean I have held for a 6 month period. Then I will drop .25mg at a time once a month until I am down to 2.5mg

This will mean I am not dropping anymore than 10% every 4 weeks and the initial drops will be around the 5-6% mark every 4 weeks.

These head symptoms the past week have been unbelievable. They are not brain zaps just more a head pressure right in the temples. I have had some emotional outbursts like crying but I think I have added that by feeling lost. The main symptoms are the head pressure which is making it hard to concentrate and think.

Thanks again for your continual support.

[ChessieCat]

20 minutes ago, Cruizer said:

I do not drink alcohol as a way of coping, it is more of a social thing for me. I am in sales so tend to go to a few events and also am involved with a sports club where the normal thing to do after a game is to have a few beers. I will cut the drinking out for the next couple of months and be mindful that 1 or 2 beers is enough when I do decide to be social.

 

It's good that you aren't drinking as a coping mechanism.  However, you do have a decision to make.  Are you going to do the best thing for yourself or are you going to drink alcohol and risk feeling awful afterwards all because you want to be "social"?  There are other options, including low alcohol beer.