Panicpax: Paxil victim

[Panicpax]

Admin note: link to benzo forum thread - Panicpax: Back on clonazepam

 

 

Dear all

i am happy im not alone, i have read many posts and see that at least in this world i am....not alone.

3rd attempt to taper 20mg paxil.... almost 2 years now and stuck at 3.6 using liquid paxil.

 

my way was 0.2mg every week till now is great

but as i reached 3.4 for a few days anxiety creeped , insomnia and waking up sweating and panic .

my problem is even updosing 0.2mg which i did makes me feel a different worse.( agitation weird thoughts half the day.

immediately updoased 3.5 and was back to normal only 2 days but still not enough so went to previous ( 10 days back 3.6 mg and hoping to stabalize here somewhere.

 

then hold 2 weeks if im ok  and then resume slower starting from this dose as i know SERT occupancy is telling my brain whops here is another drop ( had 1 same enstance at 9.2mg )

aggressive running, getting a cold or any fever makes me need to wait and gives WD symptoms.

 

i have no physical WD just panic anxiety and insominia mild depression... usually only feeling down on day3 of a drop and first 2 days sleep is crappy.

 

im interested in the cortisol thing i truley believe its the cause that WD symptoms i have ( awaking in panic and sweating and anxiety waves and windows) this past week trying to stabilise..... so...... vit C 1g and baby ASpirin at bedtime as the pubmed mentioned . an endocrinologist told me L-carnitine too.

will start aspirin first and see it lowers in after a week of use ( 1.5mg per kilo so maybe 2 aspirins in 1 week if it didnt work.

 

i get scared when i read some people have extreme trouble after 1mg .... 

if my experiment works ill still go slower and listen to my body but it feels like im crossing 2 building roofs on a thread holding a pole in my hands to balance.. cant go up or down right now without feeling it big time.

 

any suggestions???

Edited May 4, 2019 by Shep
tags (Scallywag), link to benzo forum thread (Shep)

[ChessieCat]

Hi panicpax and welcome to SA,

 

I'm really pleased to read that you have been tapering slowly.  And it's great that you have found SA.  There is a wealth of information on this site and I am going to list links (in other words bombard you ) with to information which I think you might find helpful.

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

Tips for tapering off Paxil (paroxetine)

 

Stabilising After a Reduction - What Does That Mean?

 

Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

Withdrawal Symptoms - Delayed Onset

 

Micro-taper instead of 10% or 5% decreases

Rhi's "Start Small, Listen to Your Body" Taper Plan

Slowness of slow tapers

 

These really helped me to understand SA's recommendations.  They have also helped me to be patient, listen to my body, accept and throw out the calendar.

 

Brain Remodelling

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

 

Many members are sensitive supplements during withdrawal.  These are the only 2 supplements which SA recommend Magnesium and Omega-3 Fish Oil.   It is best to try things one at a time and at a small dose.

 

Learning non-drug coping techniques is also extremely helpful.

1. Acceptance
2. Acceptance and Mindfulness
3. Acupuncture - Posts #6 & #8 (not detox or stimulation)
4. Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System
5. "Change the channel" -- dealing with cognitive symptoms
6. Change cognitive framing - Redirect - Another Way
7. Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) for anxiety, depression
8. Cognitive Behavior Therapy lessons
9. Guided Meditations, Calming Videos, Sleep Hypnosis
10. Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms
11. Yoga for calming (very simple poses can help greatly)

 

To search the site I use google and type in survivingantidepressants.org + topic.  You can ask questions here in your Intro/Update topic and journal your progress.  Click "Follow" top right and you will be notified when someone responds.

[ChessieCat]

And here's one I missed :  Sleep problems - that awful withdrawal insomnia

[scallywag]

Now I'm stabilizing at 3.6mg of paxil and it took me 20 month to get here from 20mg on for a few years .

 

I will for the first time do a 12% taper each month since that's what my brain can handle.

 

But it does seem ridiculous to go down as far as 0.2mg ... but after a got an accumulation hit last week because I was going 15 to 20% monthly

( 3.4 so I upped it and am stabilizing nicely on 3.6)

 

I don't see it that ridiculous anymore... will take about another 2 years but I really don't care as long as life can be lived normally and functionally.

How do you know that a 12% taper is what your brain can handle?

 

The math of reducing from 20 mg to 3.6 mg over 20 months is equivalent to tapering is 8.2% per month.

[brassmonkey]

Hi Panicpax--  welcome to SA. I'm sorry to hear that you've run into trouble with your taper.  It sounds like things have been going very well so far. ATM I think a long hold, several months, is in order.  This will let the accumulated symptoms sort themselves out and stabilize, then you can continue your taper.  With Paxil, the range from 4mg down to 2mg can be very tricky and unpredictable, therefore needs to be taken very slowly and with great care.  From 2mg on down a slow gentle taper with lots of holds is called for.  The waking up in panic and sweating are signs that your symptoms are unresolved and a hold is in order.

 

As you see from the SERT charts a very small change in dose makes a large change in occupancy, and that will cause heavy symptoms.  It is imperative to take it slow at this point and go as low as possible.  I'm currently at 0.126mg after a taper from 40mg that has taken 5.5 years and I can still notice when I change a dose.  It is generally recommended that a person taper to 0.2 - 0.1mg before making the jump to "0".  Any higher than that tends to cause a marked increase in symptoms that can take a long time to resolve.

[Panicpax]

Brasmonkey thanks for the reply.

Wow 5.5 years ... man .. ur almost there ... that's great.

 

I will go down slowly for sure after 2mg .

For now I won't taper unless I'm a 100% like I was ..if that translates to 2 or 3 weeks ok... if a few month then a few month...

As for tapering 8.2% that's if I calculate it from the original dose and not monthly.

I went weekly down 0.2 in a linear fashion so that makes it 5% the first month ( 20 to 19) up to almost 25% the month when I reached 4.4 to 3.4 ( again 0.2 weekly)

So that's why I said instead of 25% or even 18 % a few month back. I'll just do 15% from each dose now monthly.

Then at 2 MG 12% then at 1 ..10% easy to say because could be slower if I feel anything ( listen to my body)

 

I usually feel stable at day 5 after I drop . But I can't drop more then 0.2 weekly . And at that rate I stabilize from sometimes minimal insomnia 2 days and some mild getting angry quicker on day 3 and 4 to zero symptoms sometimes. It worked great but now I guess I'll have to go slower which I will and listen to my body.

 

When I saw a Columbia University psychiatrist once he did an enzyme test CY2 something and told me I'm a slow metabolizer hence making it easier for me I hope.

 

Thank u for answering my questions regarding how far... yes 0.1 to jump but my last question would be how with the 1 ml syringe can u calculate the same dose every day.. it becomes hard because u can have some drop mix up like 1 little drop more or less sometimes even with that syringe..... microtapering? If so how do u do that? Any thread here on specifics?

 

It'll probably be another 2 years till I finish. Don't care as long as I don't end up with the protracted symptoms that people mention ( horrible)

[Jlynn]

The problem with Paxil is the WD can sneak up on you weeks and even months after starting to taper. My brain did fine with my tapering schedule for a while, but then when the WD hit it really hit! I agree a good long hold right now to let things settle. If you can think in terms of months, not weeks. I am also looking at a several year taper to get off Paxil but I have to go slow because they hit me out of no where. 

 

I have also read on others updates that certain dose ranges can cause more problems than others so maybe you are hitting a range that is causing you to react....

 

Hope you are feeling better and congrats on such a strong taper so far!

[nz11]

 my last question would be how with the 1 ml syringe can u calculate the same dose every day.. it becomes hard because u can have some drop mix up like 1 little drop more or less sometimes even with that syringe..... microtapering? If so how do u do that? Any thread here on specifics?

 

Good question

I would guess its a lot more accurate than you think.

I would think that you take each reading with your eye level with the meniscus.

 

If i find a thread i'll post it.

 

Later...

Found this one

Wow some great images of syringes here...gee i think one might need a microscope to read the meniscus on some of these..

Im pretty sure i would with my bad eyesight. Old age seems to come at the wrong end of life really. lol

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/235-using-an-oral-syringe-and-other-tapering-techniques/

[Panicpax]

oh man what an idiot i am.

i feel im not stabilizing that well... few good days then panicki and loose stool with cramps like WD... i just checked the bottle of liquid.... sep 2016 expiration been using it last 4 month.

 

just got a new bottle but only take my 3.6mg dose tomorrow... man i feel stupid for not checking.

 

now i just hope i dont feel the upping effect of taking the same dose tomorrow from the new bottle alot.

 

i learned for now at least that propanolol 40mg takes the sweating and panic away in WD... just took it again 40mg . dont wanna get used to that too.

 

has anyone found the same problem that u WD from an expired bottle through lower potency.

[ChessieCat]

Check out this topic especially Post #11:  liquid-medications-use-past-expiration

[mustangwoman]

Just read through your thread.  I've not used liquid preparation, so I couldn't speak to that, but I am sure that someone here has.  I'm also withdrawal from luvox and not paxil, but also an ssri.  I admire your resolve.  You are doing great!  I was going to suggest a hold and then a slower wean, but I see that some have already done so, and that you have already said that sounded in order.  So, I just wanted to let you know you are not alone and you are doing great!  The lower doses do hit much harder with drops, but the fact that you are doing small drops allowed you to catch it.  Hang in there!

[Panicpax]

well... I'm back on 20mg paxil 3 weeks after my 3rd failed attempt. not sure if i relapsed into panic or was WD. reached 3.5mg this time.

so ... not only paxil but 1mg on klonopin now for startup... I'm 36 y.o don't give a damn anymore ...

shoot the odds of staying on the meds indefinitely until either... they poop out... or a miracle happens and they find an antidote to WD and a non drug treatment for anxiety.

it's 2017 ... was diagnosed 10 years ago and sure nothing much has changed so I guess my odds are bad but what the hell... I might as well live comfortable for another few years till I end up shooting my self if i poop out .

 

anyone?

[scallywag]

That's okay that you went back to 20 mg. Some people make that choice given their symptoms. If -- a big if -- you decide to taper again, you now know that you need to make smaller cuts and take longer holds. You've got 3 taper attempts to inform any future decisions.

 

Also, not everyone experiences "poop out" To me, that seems as mysterious as who gets severe and prolonged withdrawal.

[Altostrata]

panicpax, how are you doing?

[Panicpax]

Altostarta 

It's been almost one and a half years.

 

Was on klonopin 3 month tapered it over 4 month.

 

Then started my 3rd journey of paxil tapering liquid again. It's been a year now and I'm at 11mg.

Each time I learn more , i still do 0.2mg drops every 1 to 2 weeks if i feel ok.

Iv learned that i always need to switch to a new bottle earlier then when it finishes.

 

Life am  stable in my life  with dips every few month when i get a cold or travel.

 

Otherwise ... I will never surrender to paxil. This time I dont smoke anymore... I lift weights 3 times a week. 

 

And I have come to terms that I might go through this again and again but I dont think I'll ever do 20mg again... 12mg max if I ever go on again.

The sexual orgasm delay thing was the worst and faded after 14mg slowly.

 

I want to be more active from now on on this board.

 

 

 

Sorry for the late reply haha

[Panicpax]

Altostrata?

[Panicpax]

2 minutes ago, Panicpax said:

Altostrata?

 

On 4/29/2018 at 10:42 PM, Altostrata said:

panicpax, how are you doing?

How r ya?

Now on 10.6mg 

Sometimes I feel 100% for weeks. Then a get a dip where I dont know if it's a mild relapse or WD, my problem on top is always that I also suffer from updose symptoms.. so let's say if I go to 10.7mg **** I would go nuts .

I always feel like I'm walking on a rope in the air and it gets thinner as a try to reach the finish line... if I fall clonazepam is my net and assists me till a climb up and start again.. I throw clonazepam( the net back down over a few month) then start over .

 

Oh life...cant they just find an expensive drug that upreglates sert receptors and take us off this agony. 

[miT]

Hey PanicPax, I'm on 3mg for a year now and have felt bad extended periods of time. When I feel bad I don't updose at all. I just try to stabilise my CNS by staying put on the same dose. I think the windows and waves will come anyway, regardless of the dose.

 

I do think you're courageous to go back to 20mg. It would be a step in the unknown for me. I might have to do the same one day, it's tough.

[Panicpax]

14 hours ago, miT said:

Hey PanicPax, I'm on 3mg for a year now and have felt bad extended periods of time. When I feel bad I don't updose at all. I just try to stabilise my CNS by staying put on the same dose. I think the windows and waves will come anyway, regardless of the dose.

 

I do think you're courageous to go back to 20mg. It would be a step in the unknown for me. I might have to do the same one day, it's tough.

Hi miT

3mg for a whole year? May I ask why?

I did go back to 20 every time I failed miserably below 4mg ( 2mg and 3.6mg )

Now my third try and am at 10.7mg.

 

I do get the CNS part and it's different with every person of how long it takes till you can take that next drop.

 

The brass monkey method definitely has truth to it since I was using it last 2 times without even reading about it.

I always decrease 0.2mg but now am considering doing 0.1mg when I reach 8.

Weekly to 2 weekly drops have been ok.

 

I think it's more of the other factors that mess up tapering sometimes 

1- smoking WD. Makes it worse.

2- cardio makes it worse but light weights for a little bit can help .

3- getting a cold or flu / fever makes it worse and needs you to stay longer on the dose.

4- taking the dose exactly the same minute every day is very important. 

5- alcohol free beer contains 0.5% so having one when u taper 3rd day or so helps too to lift the dose in the body a bit .

 

Over the years a have kept a journal that really helps when I find myself stuck in the same situations and it is definitely a personal observation. Might not work for everybody.

 

 

 

 

 

[Panicpax]

Hi every one!

Question:

I am currently on liquid brand paxil and have been tapering for a year 20mg now to 10.7mg.

I usually do 0.2 cuts which are ok using the liquid with a syring... but... let's say I want to do smaller cuts ... 0.05 let's say.

 

Does anyone have any idea of how to do that with liquid paxil?

[ChessieCat]

Here is SA's discussion:  questions-and-answers-about-liquid-medications

 

Do you need assistance with the math?

 

[Altostrata]

On 12/8/2018 at 2:13 PM, Panicpax said:

Altostarta 

It's been almost one and a half years.

 

Was on klonopin 3 month tapered it over 4 month.

 

Then started my 3rd journey of paxil tapering liquid again. It's been a year now and I'm at 11mg.

Each time I learn more , i still do 0.2mg drops every 1 to 2 weeks if i feel ok.

Iv learned that i always need to switch to a new bottle earlier then when it finishes.

 

Life am  stable in my life  with dips every few month when i get a cold or travel.

 

Otherwise ... I will never surrender to paxil. This time I dont smoke anymore... I lift weights 3 times a week. 

 

And I have come to terms that I might go through this again and again but I dont think I'll ever do 20mg again... 12mg max if I ever go on again.

The sexual orgasm delay thing was the worst and faded after 14mg slowly.

 

I want to be more active from now on on this board.

 

 

 

Sorry for the late reply haha

 

This sounds pretty good. The sexual dysfunction improved?

 

Very smart realizing your liquid Paxil was losing potency.

 

 

5 hours ago, Panicpax said:

Hi every one!

Question:

I am currently on liquid brand paxil and have been tapering for a year 20mg now to 10.7mg.

I usually do 0.2 cuts which are ok using the liquid with a syring... but... let's say I want to do smaller cuts ... 0.05 let's say.

 

Does anyone have any idea of how to do that with liquid paxil?

 

What size oral syringe are you using? What is the concentration of your liquid Paxil, how many milligrams in a millilter?

 

If you're finding it almost impossible to reduce Paxil, you might consider  The Prozac switch or "bridging" with Prozac , it's often used to go off Paxil. powerback is doing this now powerback: tapering no 2

[Panicpax]

19 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

This sounds pretty good. The sexual dysfunction improved?

 

Very smart realizing your liquid Paxil was losing potency.

 

 

 

What size oral syringe are you using? What is the concentration of your liquid Paxil, how many milligrams in a millilter?

 

If you're finding it almost impossible to reduce Paxil, you might consider  The Prozac switch or "bridging" with Prozac , it's often used to go off Paxil. powerback is doing this now powerback: tapering no 2

Oh the orgasm delay improved 90%

Meaning I dont have a single side effect anymore at let's say 12mg .. started fading  below14mg.

 

Well ok

So I use the 3cc syringe. But I also have the 1cc syringe. I know with it it's easier  to get 0.05 etc... but I see people microdosing . Let's say I want 0.025.

 If I ever want to do that with liquid paxil... how and what way is convenient and accurate. 

I wish they would make long thin  0.5cc syringes with many cuts 

[ChessieCat]

 

 

21 minutes ago, Panicpax said:

I wish they would make long thin  0.5cc syringes with many cuts 

 

You should be able to get them from a vet.  See the following link.

 

 

 

[miT]

On 12/31/2018 at 12:26 AM, Panicpax said:

Hi miT

3mg for a whole year? May I ask why?

I did go back to 20 every time I failed miserably below 4mg ( 2mg and 3.6mg )

Now my third try and am at 10.7mg.

 

I do get the CNS part and it's different with every person of how long it takes till you can take that next drop.

 

The brass monkey method definitely has truth to it since I was using it last 2 times without even reading about it.

I always decrease 0.2mg but now am considering doing 0.1mg when I reach 8.

Weekly to 2 weekly drops have been ok.

 

I think it's more of the other factors that mess up tapering sometimes 

1- smoking WD. Makes it worse.

2- cardio makes it worse but light weights for a little bit can help .

3- getting a cold or flu / fever makes it worse and needs you to stay longer on the dose.

4- taking the dose exactly the same minute every day is very important. 

5- alcohol free beer contains 0.5% so having one when u taper 3rd day or so helps too to lift the dose in the body a bit .

 

Over the years a have kept a journal that really helps when I find myself stuck in the same situations and it is definitely a personal observation. Might not work for everybody.

 

I don't feel like I can handle another drop in dosis. I have a lot of waves and windows and I don't want my CNS to deal with anything but stability. If the windows don't prolong I'm prepared to stay on 3mg for the whole of 2019 as well.

I'm really not focused on being med free. I just want to get through the day and, hopefully, be happy.

 

Why would you think cardio is bad? Is that your experience? Alcohol definitely is bad. My CNS pays for it the day after every time.

 

Good luck.

[Altostrata]

19 hours ago, Panicpax said:

So I use the 3cc syringe. But I also have the 1cc syringe. I know with it it's easier  to get 0.05 etc... but I see people microdosing . Let's say I want 0.025. 

 If I ever want to do that with liquid paxil... how and what way is convenient and accurate. 

 

To reduce by tinier amounts, you can either use a smaller oral syringe or dilute your Paxil liquid with a measured amount of water.

 

You may wish to try this before considering a switch to Prozac.

[Panicpax]

Tried the Prozac switch 8 years ago.. I went overnight from 10 of Paxil to 10 of Prozac... I thought I was cures ... till 2 weeks after when I went through withdrawal big time... 7 weeks stayed on  Prozac till I tried Paxil 10mg again...

Bamm!! Within 1 hour I was back to normal. 

 

Vets they say have these long 1cc syringes?? I will check that out

[Panicpax]

1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

 

To reduce by tinier amounts, you can either use a smaller oral syringe or dilute your Paxil liquid with a measured amount of water.

 

You may wish to try this before considering a switch to Prozac.

 

8 hours ago, miT said:

 

I don't feel like I can handle another drop in dosis. I have a lot of waves and windows and I don't want my CNS to deal with anything but stability. If the windows don't prolong I'm prepared to stay on 3mg for the whole of 2019 as well.

I'm really not focused on being med free. I just want to get through the day and, hopefully, be happy.

 

Why would you think cardio is bad? Is that your experience? Alcohol definitely is bad. My CNS pays for it the day after every time.

 

Good luck.

Regarding cardio... for me i wish it would have worked... it makes WD a bit worse... but light weights i find perosnally are great.

 

And I get you with staying on 3mg till the windows go away... it's just Wierd that a whole a year and it's the same.

Regarding just getting through the day... man I can relate. 

[Panicpax]

On 1/1/2019 at 11:07 PM, Altostrata said:

 

To reduce by tinier amounts, you can either use a smaller oral syringe or dilute your Paxil liquid with a measured amount of water.

 

You may wish to try this before considering a switch to Prozac.

Hi again

Just wanted to write here for an update.

1.5 years tapering 20mg paxil liquid.

I made it to 8.5mg now

It seems to get more difficult,  I also noticed that smoking a certain brand of cigarettes ( American spirit ) could be making tapering easier. But I stopped smoking month ago. 

 

I started now with 0.1mg drops sometimes I updose 0.05mg just 1 day if I feel withdrawal coming on.

 

It feels like a never ending story... a far fetched nearly impossible dream to get off this stuff. 

[brassmonkey]

It looks like it's time to start doing your reductions by a percentage rather than by a set number of mg.  According to your signature right now you are reducing by 10% every four weeks, which is the fastest that we recommend.  Even if you go to doing 0.1mg at  time you only have a few more reductions before you are doing more than 10%.  This is probably why things are getting more difficult. I also don't see any mention of taking a hold period every four reductions (10%)  Periodic holds are very important, especially at the lower doses.  Reducing the lower doses of paxil can be very tricky and need to be done slowly and carefully. I strongly recommend switching to a 10% taper with built in holds.

[Panicpax]

5 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

It looks like it's time to start doing your reductions by a percentage rather than by a set number of mg.  According to your signature right now you are reducing by 10% every four weeks, which is the fastest that we recommend.  Even if you go to doing 0.1mg at  time you only have a few more reductions before you are doing more than 10%.  This is probably why things are getting more difficult. I also don't see any mention of taking a hold period every four reductions (10%)  Periodic holds are very important, especially at the lower doses.  Reducing the lower doses of paxil can be very tricky and need to be done slowly and carefully. I strongly recommend switching to a 10% taper with built in holds.

Dear brassmonkey

Yes I totally agree.

But I do have to mention that I'm stuck now and dont know what to do, the WD struck me at 8.45 mg and I just increased it to 8.5 because it was unbearable 3 days into it . Now I'm having some updose symptoms vs I'm afraid of any kind of panic relapse I'm not sure what I have.

 

What do u recommend at this point ?

And if I ever feel I failed ... my emergency plan is klonopin 0.5mg  to 1mg daily with an updose to 10mg of paxil not 20mg. Then stay there 2 to 3 month till I'm stable then taper the klonopin over 3 month with liquid ( I had done this 2 times in the past successfully but always going back to 20mg not 10mg).

 

I'm in such despair 

 

[brassmonkey]

I'd stay at the 8.5 for several months to let things settle out. Even though it's worked in the past I'd stay away from the klonopin. The more you go on and off of it the harder it gets.

[Panicpax]

41 minutes ago, brassmonkey said:

I'd stay at the 8.5 for several months to let things settle out. Even though it's worked in the past I'd stay away from the klonopin. The more you go on and off of it the harder it gets.

I agree on the klonopin I am scared that ever happens again.

But let's say i would stabilize on 8.5 in a few weeks... why month?

Question is when should i be comfortable to taper again ( 5% brassmonkey slide !)?

[brassmonkey]

In our experience it can take several months to stabilize.  It's been known to happen in a few weeks but that is very rare.  It's always best to taper from a place of stability so you need to wait until there are no big swings either direction in your symptoms.  Once that happens then you can start to taper.

[ChessieCat]

3 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

no big swings either direction in your symptoms

 

WDnormal (withdrawal normal)

[Panicpax]

On 4/27/2019 at 10:59 PM, brassmonkey said:

In our experience it can take several months to stabilize.  It's been known to happen in a few weeks but that is very rare.  It's always best to taper from a place of stability so you need to wait until there are no big swings either direction in your symptoms.  Once that happens then you can start to 

Guys I'm suffering.

I'm on 8.5 paxil and I'm having sever insomnia with hot flashes and a feeling I cant describe.

I feel I cant even hold a few days let alone month.

What can I do??

My only emergency button is klonopin and go back to 10mg paxil  but I really dont wanna do it.

What are the alternative ,,, I'm suffering.