Has anyone decided that it was best for them to stay on meds indefinitely?

[Tootsieroll]

1 hour ago, RainbowDbc said:

I toot...can I have your thoughts on inositol? What does.it do?

 

Hi rainbow, I believe it sensitizes the serotonin receptors.  I suggested it because it helped the symptoms somewhat when I was tapering off SSRIs.  However, it didn't work when I went through benzo withdrawals but then again there were many things going on at that point.  Now with further researching on my own I'm beginning to believe that a lot of our healing could have been helped with vitamins and minerals, mainly b12, as taking SSRIs and other medications can deplete this.  B12 deficiency can cause all sorts of mental disorders.  I hope this helped.

[RainbowDbc]

19 minutes ago, Tootsieroll said:

 

Hi rainbow, I believe it sensitizes the serotonin receptors.  I suggested it because it helped the symptoms somewhat when I was tapering off SSRIs.  However, it didn't work when I went through benzo withdrawals but then again there were many things going on at that point.  Now with further researching on my own I'm beginning to believe that a lot of our healing could have been helped with vitamins and minerals, mainly b12, as taking SSRIs and other medications can deplete this.  B12 deficiency can cause all sorts of mental disorders.  I hope this helped.

Thank you. I think youre accurate

[cpuusage]

On 25/08/2017 at 4:19 AM, Samanta said:

I understand your story, I am the same, diagnosed with schizophrenia and taking amisulpride, I will try to reduce the 285 ml, but try these days and it was difficult, I think I will reduce it in five years or longer. What did you feel when you stopped taking the drug?

Hi Samanta. There is a very long & complex history with it all.

Age 25 i was put on 1200mg of Amisulpride for a year after a very severe psychosis. i stopped it cold turkey & was sectioned in psychiatric hospital shortly after. i then refused meds, but was threatened with a section 3 & forced treatment if i didn't take anything. i agreed to a 200mg dose of the Amisulpride. 2 years later i stopped it again with a 3 month taper, & ended up incredibly ill & delusional & went back on the 200mg. Then i did a 2 year tapered reduction & stopped again. i experienced some of the most severe illness of my life - zero sleep for well over 2 weeks. Powerful delusions. Hallucinations more real than anything physical. Voices shouting at me, all sorts. i went back on the 200mg & increased it to 300mg a few years ago.

The past 5 years i have increasingly come to an acceptance of the schizophrenia diagnosis / illness / condition & medication. It's that the alternatives have been / are worse at this stage.

i feel that it is so individual & complex for people with multiple individual variables. i would love to be more well & successfully free of the medication, but that hasn't been possible. 

[bruno2016]

everyone has "bad genes" of some sort. Imagine if the world and all our lives were run according to our "bad genes", that would be one crazy world. The point is, yes, perhaps we have bad genes but staying on harmful psychiatric drugs isnt the answer. Many people with so called mental illness in their family history have found the answers: some in the form of nutritional therapy (like the ones Dr Pfeiffer Treated); some in the form of spirituality;  some in the form of radical life changes; etc. The whole problem with psychiatric drugs is they dont fix anything and only add to the problem as the years go by. 

 

You can find the answers to whatever ails you. Dont fall for the mindset trap of "its genetic, you must take xyz drug".  Keep up with a slow tape and do some digging around and investigative work. There are people who can help guide you. The last place you want mental health guidance from is a psychiatrist...

[Zeldazonk]

11 hours ago, bruno2016 said:

You can find the answers to whatever ails you. 

 

I'm afraid that is patently untrue, and an insensitive thing to say.

 

I don't think this is, or should be a forum for preaching our own beliefs which stem from our own experiences and are by their nature subjective and limited.

Perhaps you have found this path of tapering off anti-D's and staying off them successful for you, and are now patting yourself on the back for it. Good for you.

But don't think for one moment you have any idea about my journey, and what I need to do to survive. 

 

Zel.

 

[bruno2016]

On 04/11/2017 at 12:04 PM, Zeldazonk said:

 

I'm afraid that is patently untrue, and an insensitive thing to say.

 

 

 

 

no, no its it. Its not untrue, nor "insensitive" but if you believe that then it will be so! 

Edited November 8, 2017 by JanCarol
fix quote

[Zeldazonk]

I know people who've spent years, and their whole lives trying to "find the answers to whatever ails" them and some of them have died doing it.

What's your theory about them? Are they lazy? Not enlightened enough? Not motivated enough?

My point is your statement is sweeping, lacking in wisdom and insight into the amazing complexity of what it is to be human.

It's a glib statement. 

So, agree to strongly disagree I guess.

 

Zel.

[manymoretodays]

 Zelda,

 

Woah.........   I guess I'd rather live while dying comes to mind.  And try to be kind and nonreactive.  No there yet myself but learning every day.  I'm reactive by writing this post.

 

Why judge bruno?  Who knows his personal struggles or the whole context of his comment?  Why conclude he was alluding to laziness, demotivation, and un enlightenment?  I didn't read any of that from his one statement not directly even responding to you.

 

And congratulations on being A/D free for almost 5 mos. now.  We do know it's real tough sometimes........or I do know that, speaking for myself.  I got started in my psychiatric patient career around 1990 too.  I'm a human being now.

 

Best and hugs,  have faith,

 

mmt

 

Kind of off topic here too so my apologies to the topic starter.  I decided to go med free because I could I guess.......the timing was right.......and I was only getting sicker.  Also I felt truly inspired by some stuff I read and people I met and knew it was what I would do and have....... and am pretty happy about all that.  However, I can understand and accept people who make different choices based on their circumstances....... and exposure to information.  This isn't however, really a site for people who choose to stay on meds. indefinitely.........at least that's my understanding.  Some though may not decide to stay on meds. indefinitely until they are here awhile though.......so welcome, hugs

 

 

 

[bruno2016]

18 hours ago, Zeldazonk said:

I know people who've spent years, and their whole lives trying to "find the answers to whatever ails" them and some of them have died doing it.

What's your theory about them? Are they lazy? Not enlightened enough? Not motivated enough?

My point is your statement is sweeping, lacking in wisdom and insight into the amazing complexity of what it is to be human.

It's a glib statement. 

So, agree to strongly disagree I guess.

 

Zel.

not sure if you are not feeling well or what, but if you take something negative from my messages here, something isnt right. So before you try and lecture me, lets have a change of mindset, shall we? If you take a positive message from someone and only see something negative, how is this helping you get well? How is that helping others?  I am living proof people can get off psych meds and have a good life, even if its done the wrong way. I went cold turkey and am able to come back here and try and help others. So take your negativity elsewhere. Thanks!

[bruno2016]

18 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

 Zelda,

 

Woah.........   I guess I'd rather live while dying comes to mind.  And try to be kind and nonreactive.  No there yet myself but learning every day.  I'm reactive by writing this post.

 

Why judge bruno?  Who knows his personal struggles or the whole context of his comment?  Why conclude he was alluding to laziness, demotivation, and un enlightenment?  I didn't read any of that from his one statement not directly even responding to you.

 

And congratulations on being A/D free for almost 5 mos. now.  We do know it's real tough sometimes........or I do know that, speaking for myself.  I got started in my psychiatric patient career around 1990 too.  I'm a human being now.

 

Best and hugs,  have faith,

 

mmt

 

Kind of off topic here too so my apologies to the topic starter.  I decided to go med free because I could I guess.......the timing was right.......and I was only getting sicker.  Also I felt truly inspired by some stuff I read and people I met and knew it was what I would do and have....... and am pretty happy about all that.  However, I can understand and accept people who make different choices based on their circumstances....... and exposure to information.  This isn't however, really a site for people who choose to stay on meds. indefinitely.........at least that's my understanding.  Some though may not decide to stay on meds. indefinitely until they are here awhile though.......so welcome, hugs

 

 

 

thank you for backing me up. Obviously my comments were to encourage people and show them that yes it can be done. If someone was offended, triggered, or upset about a positive message...well then, what can we do? 

 

Myself like many others have found a life away from psychiatric drugs. Obviously we still have our bad days, but like you said, we are human beings now. Yes I still have some lingering damage from the poisons, but my life is fairly normal now. Iv done quite a lot actually, considering the suffering i went through. So yes, people can find answers to whatever ails them, i have done it and so have many others. 

[cpuusage]

Even Breggin cites in one of his books that some 40% of people once started on neuroleptic drugs will never be able to successfully get off them.

 

It is all a highly in depth & complex area. Statistically about a quarter of people are able to recover medication free long term.

 

There are so many individual, social & systemic variables involved.

 

With regards to what comes under schizophrenia it is a highly complex picture. Even with an ideal system there would be a place for a wise use of medication. Open dialogue - comprehensive psychological / social approaches to first episode psychosis still cite a percentage of cases needing longer term care, access to front end services & medication.

 

i'm Not personally opposed to a more comprehensive psychiatry & wise use of medication in cases.

 

This whole area is so confused & such a muddle. It can't be generalised as the same for all people.

[cpuusage]

Robert Whitaker, J. Moncrieff, R.D Laing & many others highly critical of the current mental health system & treatment have / do acknowledge a role for medication in cases, especially in regards to cases of severe psychosis.

 

The extreme anti psychiatry / anti-medication / Szasz / abolitionist 'camp' are a small fringe.

 

 

 

 

[apace41]

2 hours ago, cpuusage said:

Statistically about a quarter of people are able to recover medication free long term.

 

Where does this statistic come from?

 

Thanks,

 

Andy

[cpuusage]

9 hours ago, apace41 said:

 

Where does this statistic come from?

 

Thanks,

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy - i have been researching & studying all these areas at great depth for the past 30 years. It's the official statistic with the RCP.

 

It is a highly complex picture. We now have around 40% of the USA & 20% of the UK diagnosed as mentally ill & medicated. 80% of the USA & 50% of the UK is on one or more permanently prescribed medical drug for mental & / or physical health condition. According to international psychiatry / the RCP & others the demographic that covers severe mental illness, largely severe schizophrenia, classic manic depression, clinical depression, severe OCD & some forms of severe BPD (& other PD's) is around 3% of the population. i think that has to be seen for what it is & separated out from everything else for start. Before the pharmacological revolution there was a third of that demographic that made a full recovery, now it's a quarter - official statistics for schizophrenia are a quarter of people have one main episode & largely fully recover, often medication free. A quarter have repeating breakdowns with periods of good functioning in-between,  a quarter have repeating episodes with less good overall functioning between episodes, & a quarter get & ill & stay very unwell. 

That all is the current picture. Within the anti / critical / alternative mental health movement there is a lot of controversy,  debate & disagreements. Some people claim that with highly comprehensive psychological / social alternatives; such an Diabasis, Soteria, i-ward, Open Dialogue etc there can be up to an 80% full recovery rate from first episode psychosis, but that has Never really been established & such alternatives are generally Not used anyway. Where such approaches have been used there has been an issue with cases that come under personality disorder ranges & also with a percentage of more severe cases that have needed hospital & longer term care / medication.

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/healthadvice/problemsdisorders/schizophrenia.aspx

[JanCarol]

On 21/01/2017 at 10:20 PM, Jaco2016 said:

A psychiatrist has told me that my "genes are loaded" with propensity for mental illness.

Indeed they are - one aunt, one grandma, and one great grandma with schizophrenia.

Two parents both with undiagnosed anxiety disorders. A brother and sister who are both hypochondriacs.

 

You know that trauma is passed through families, too.  And eating habits , communication patterns, stress coping mechanisms.

 

"Genetic basis" for mental illness has failed to be proven.  Read Robert Whitaker's "Anatomy of an Epidemic" for an excellent summary of this.

 

The drugs are hard to come off of.  Are you prepared to be responsible for your own mood and behaviour?  That is what is required when coming off of the meds.

 

Additionally, the drugs themselves increase sensitivity to stress and extreme states - kindling them into more chronic conditions (another way these things "run in families")

 

 

On 23/01/2017 at 1:31 PM, Mort81 said:

Flip side is what do these drugs do you longterm? What kinds of serious problems does a person run into for being on these drugs. It can be quite a list and obviously coming off sooner rather than later makes it easier,

although possibly not easy at all.

 

It's like Russian roulette.  There may not be a bullet in this chamber, this year.  But next year there may be.  How many times can you put your hand in a badger hole and come out unscathed?

The longer you do it, the more often you switch and change, CT, quit, start up again - the more likely it is that problems will ensue.  There are also special challenges for people who started these drugs in adolescence, as they were not fully mature when the psych drugs hit their systems

 

 

On 22/05/2017 at 11:40 AM, Jaco2016 said:

e if you tried St. John's wort capsules so you could experiment with different doses?? Web MD cites research with people taking anywhere between 300-1800mg per day in various studies. so I figure if I start with 300mg,3x /day (typical adult dose) and after a month that's not quite doing it then maybe bumping up until it feels like it's working better, up to 1800mg. I believe the risks of photosensitivity increases between 2-4000 mg so I wouldn't use any more than 1800mg. I'm gonna try it and see how it goes

 

People who have been on serotinin drugs can have reactions to St. John's Wort, and there have been some fairly strong reactions.

St John's Wort

 

Others have gotten "hooked" on them - just like Prozac - and had to taper them.

 

Tapering St John's Wort

 

Just because it's a plant, doesn't mean it's 

1.  Safe for you

2.  Right for you

 

Additionally, those doses are very high.
 

For studies (usually sponsored by vested interests) the doses are high enough to get a reaction.  In herbal medicine, you want support and gentle response.

 

They are potent, like drugs - but the drugs are too strong, too.  

When I look at plant medicine, I like to look at "would I eat this as food?"  Would I eat this in one day?



Every day?  I don't think so. 

Please be careful.

[manymoretodays]

On 11/3/2017 at 8:04 PM, Zeldazonk said:

I don't think this is, or should be a forum for preaching our own beliefs which stem from our own experiences and are by their nature subjective and limited.

Perhaps you have found this path of tapering off anti-D's and staying off them successful for you, and are now patting yourself on the back for it. Good for you.

But don't think for one moment you have any idea about my journey, and what I need to do to survive. 

 

Hi again Zelda. 

 

I don't think anyone is preaching and I am so very glad that this place, SA, is a place where people can and do share their experiences.........around getting medication free, especially from AD's.   Sometimes it's too much for me as well........as I am still fragile and extra sensitive, sometimes cognitively impaired, and just barely functioning some times.  Making it hard to read about it all.   Especially the negative hopeless stuff.  Yet read it I often do.  That's my problem though.  I have no qualms with others expressing their realities. 

 

I definitely need to hear from the Bruno's right now and of their success.  And I just did not follow your negative interpretation of a couple statements he had every right to post.

 

I also don't wish to defer you from posting.  I did read some of your introduction and hope you continue to seek support and express yourself.  And learn and grow.  Love.  Peace.  We are all in this together.

 

24 minutes ago, JanCarol said:

The drugs are hard to come off of.  Are you prepared to be responsible for your own mood and behavior?  That is what is required when coming off of the meds.

 

Additionally, the drugs themselves increase sensitivity to stress and extreme states - kindling them into more chronic conditions (another way these things "run in families")

 

Yup.  Also additionally the after drug or W/D period, for me at least, has proved to be one of increased sensitivity to stress.  I love your success story and will get on over there soon JanCarol.

 

18 hours ago, bruno2016 said:

thank you for backing me up. Obviously my comments were to encourage people and show them that yes it can be done. If someone was offended, triggered, or upset about a positive message...well then, what can we do? 

 

No problem.  Thanks for some positive optimism.

 

And thankyou CPU..........I always love your stuff.  Intellectual.  Referenced well.   And you are maintaining on one medication.........you belong here.........or at least I think so. 

 

Love, peace, recovery/healing and growth, life,

 

manymoretodays

[apace41]

6 hours ago, cpuusage said:

 

Hi Andy - i have been researching & studying all these areas at great depth for the past 30 years. It's the official statistic with the RCP.

 

Thanks, CPU.  Very interesting from an academic perspective. 

 

I think it is inherently difficult and probably impossible to glean any really meaningful statistics on "recovery" in this context because of the fundamental question of subjectivity and bias in assessment.  We start from a premise of "who is actually ill" and "how was that determination made?"  One provider may view patient A as "clinically depressed" while another provider may see them as "dysthymic" or even lower on some subjective scale.  Since much of of the assessment in this context is made on the basis of "self-assessments" made on the basis of a scale, much will depend on the day that the particular patient is questioned and how they are feeling in the moment.

 

I also have serious questions about what it means to "recover."  For a person who, after 20 years on meds and comes off, expects to be "like I was before the meds", it is highly likely that person will be disappointed and believe they have "not recovered."  In reality, however, they may have set an unreasonable expectation as to what they would have been like after 20 years had they NOT been on the medicine.  In short, I think this is interesting research but I wouldn't take too much away from it.

 

I caveat this by saying you have done the research (for which I commend you) and it is undoubtedly far more nuanced than my rudimentary comments above, and it may well have controlled for some of these issues.  Having said that, nothing in the way of information in the psychiatric field has ever filled me with confidence as to its accuracy.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[JanCarol]

On 04/06/2017 at 8:29 PM, joy2730 said:

Don't feel guilty about choosing to stay on - if your life collapsed at present you would suffer so much stress and that we pull worsen your long term mental health. There is a risk to withdrawal - there are no guarantees it will work out well. Sometimes stability is better.

 

Yes, this is so true.

 

It's a personal choice, and while this site is designed for coming off drugs - sometimes just getting to the lowest possible dose of the fewest drugs is the best option.

 

Many have had to go back to full doses (or half doses) and plan to hold there indefinitely until they get side effects, tolerance, or health problems.

It's a hard choice, maybe the hardest choice to make for yourself.

 

If I were still in Indiana, where life was harder, and I struggled hand-to-mouth, I would probably still be drugged.  I would never have had the lithium (which was what made me sickest), and would try to keep the doses as low as possible so I could work.  But I looked at my Indiana records, and what I thought of as "low dose" then is quite different from what I think of as low dose now.

 

On 26/06/2017 at 9:28 PM, joy2730 said:

Age is an important consideration in deciding whether to undergo withdrawal - this has long been recognised, but people really are living and working for longer now.  When I was in my early 40s I was in two minds about withdrawing from diazepam which I had been taking for at least 22 years.  A book I was reading at the time, and Heather Ashton manual, suggested that if you had been taking them for a long time and were 'older' you might wish to stay on them.

 

Age is a huge consideration, considering that people die on antidepressants 30% younger than those not on antidepressants.

 

Something to think about.  I'm sorry I can't quote the exact studies - there are several - stated different ways - Antidepressant users lived 7-12 years fewer years, for example.

It complicates things such as cardiac memory issues, and we might even suffer more falls (I know I am more clumsy than the average bear).

I was 53 when I finished my taper.  I might have gained a year or two from doing so.  I might have gained 10, since I still have both my kidneys (lithium), I'm not on dialysis,  and the cardiac thing has been caught early (hopefully).  I do still struggle with the "metabolic disorder" though.

In Harm Reduction, Will Hall talks not about the drugs - that's a personal choice.  Instead, he talks about "how can we reduce harm?"

 

This might include getting off toxic drugs.  Or it might mean getting the person a shower, a warm meal, a listening friend, a bed to sleep in, a safe place to stay away from abuse.  These are about harm reduction, too.

 

[JanCarol]

On 07/11/2017 at 11:29 AM, Zeldazonk said:

I know people who've spent years, and their whole lives trying to "find the answers to whatever ails" them and some of them have died doing it.

What's your theory about them? Are they lazy? Not enlightened enough? Not motivated enough?

 

 

Now that I am on the other side of the drugs - which I was on for 20-30 years (depends on how you count it - on again, off again, switches, cold turkeys you name it) - I was talking to a friend about Depression and Anxiety.

Those who know me know that I am a fan of the Sun Walk.

 

I remember someone saying to me in 1998, the depths of my Despair - just get outside, walk around, it will help!  I said - you've never been here, you don't know what it is like, and to ADD something to my burden - like "I have to walk now" - is unhelpful.  Additionally - I tried it, a good friend and I walked every morning at 9 am so that I had a hope of being able to work that day.  I could get to work, but I was never really functional.

Then a friend of mine here in Brisbane tried the Sun Walk.  She said, "I can't believe how much of a difference it makes!"

 

So I asked her:  "If I had told you this in the depths of your crisis - that walking in the sun would help you - would you have believed me?"  I also thought about how I would answer the question.

She said, "NO! Not in a milliion years, would I have believed how effective this is."  She, too, had to come out on the other side.  She is still drugged, but more aware than she was in the depths of diagnosis.

So it's not this technique or that one.  Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones, but everyone I know who is on this side of the drugs who believes in life and living for it - would say it's a million things.  Like GiaK used to say, "Everything Matters."  It's doing things I don't want to do.  It's seeing people I don't want to see.  It's working when I don't want to work, and cleaning when I don't want to clean.  It's exercising when I don't want to exercise, and trying to put things in my body that are actually helpful rather than harmful for it.  It's the way my mind accepts a crisis now, without spinning into dramas and rumination.  It's the way I channel my anger into something creative instead of lashing out at my loved ones.  It's the way I am accepting of the way things are - while dreaming and working towards how I want them to be.  Yes, I still ruminate, and have a lot to learn, but at least I can watch myself ruminate.  These are just a handful of things - and I don't have to do all of them every day.  If I can maintain about 55% of my practices and routines, I'll get by.

 

I don't know if I'll ever get to "thrive."  I strive for thrive.  But here's the thing - I wasn't thriving before the drugs, either.  There is the element of "native state," of traumas, patterns, social programming, parental disapproval, peer rejection - all of these things form who I am today.  But I can keep working on them.  And I will keep working on them.

 

The moderators here often ask:  who gets better?  We don't have an answer to that, but there are a number of things which help.  

 

Like Peng said - to expect 100% recovery 100% of the time is unrealistic.  So can you be accepting of 50%?  And striving for 55%?  

 

I was never 100%.  Oh, when I was younger I was 100% smart, 100% smart-arse, and 100% selfish jerk.  I don't want that 100% (though it would be nice to have the brain back).

 

So - I am partially disabled, and unable to work in this country (the freelance market is not so broad).  Am I 60% of what I was?  Probably somewhere in there, now that I have joint troubles, adrenal and kidney troubles, thyroid and cardio troubles, and the metabolic disorder.  I've lost a lot.  But I'm better than I was if I'd continued the drugs - even if I'm worse off than I would have been if I'd never touched them.

Accept what you have.  Do the best with what you've got.  That, I think, is the key to survival.

 

[cpuusage]

51 minutes ago, apace41 said:

 

Thanks, CPU.  Very interesting from an academic perspective. 

 

I think it is inherently difficult and probably impossible to glean any really meaningful statistics on "recovery" in this context because of the fundamental question of subjectivity and bias in assessment.  We start from a premise of "who is actually ill" and "how was that determination made?"  One provider may view patient A as "clinically depressed" while another provider may see them as "dysthymic" or even lower on some subjective scale.  Since much of of the assessment in this context is made on the basis of "self-assessments" made on the basis of a scale, much will depend on the day that the particular patient is questioned and how they are feeling in the moment.

 

I also have serious questions about what it means to "recover."  For a person who, after 20 years on meds and comes off, expects to be "like I was before the meds", it is highly likely that person will be disappointed and believe they have "not recovered."  In reality, however, they may have set an unreasonable expectation as to what they would have been like after 20 years had they NOT been on the medicine.  In short, I think this is interesting research but I wouldn't take too much away from it.

 

I caveat this by saying you have done the research (for which I commend you) and it is undoubtedly far more nuanced than my rudimentary comments above, and it may well have controlled for some of these issues.  Having said that, nothing in the way of information in the psychiatric field has ever filled me with confidence as to its accuracy.

 

Best,

 

Andy

Hi Andy. Thanks. i have read & researched so much & am fried with it all now.

i feel that what it all really boils down to is that no one knows, & 'everyone' has different experiences, understandings & perspectives on it all. Things are so individual & there are so many variables & areas that everything goes into.

i don't see society answering / resolving all the anti / critical / alternative / pro psychiatry areas, arguments & debates. & people arguing various weightings & combinations of biological, psychological, sociological & spiritual / transpersonal areas.

My own conclusion to it all is to take a fully integrated integral / holistic / systems theory model - That everyone / everything has some validity, that no one is wholly right / wrong - that there is a certain validity to all areas of biology, psychology, sociology & spirituality - that a whole person, individualised person centered model & approach is needed - that covers mind, body, soul, spirit & environment.

Classic psychosis / madness has always existed, as has depression & all the main psychiatric classifications. Everyone is imo on a spectrum throughout their lives between good / poor physical, psychological, emotional & spiritual health. How different cultures / times & people understand & treat it all changes. Like it or Not we're currently dominated by the scientific materialist & biomedical Model to it all.

 

[JanCarol]

1 hour ago, apace41 said:

I also have serious questions about what it means to "recover."  For a person who, after 20 years on meds and comes off, expects to be "like I was before the meds", it is highly likely that person will be disappointed and believe they have "not recovered."  In reality, however, they may have set an unreasonable expectation as to what they would have been like after 20 years had they NOT been on the medicine.  In short, I think this is interesting research but I wouldn't take too much away from it.

 

Thanks for bringing this up.

 

I don't even like the word "recovery." 

What am I recovering?  The jerk that I was when I was younger?  NO thanks.

I like to say healed.

 

I discussed with a couple of people this week about "what does it mean to be healed?"

I know people who are permanently damaged from the drugs, but who I consider to be healed.  (and still healing)

I know people who are functioning fine but who are still not healed. (and seem to be stuck)

 

Then there are the ones who have achieved improvement - but still struggle on a daily basis on the long term.  

 

What is the difference?

 

The ones who are healed, are the ones who are able - for whatever reason (community support, church, hobbies, interests, activities, art, film, music or a garden) - to live  their life.

The element of acceptance.  Like I said above - okay, if 60% is what I've got, I'm going to try for 61% and it might be a steep learning curve, but it's better than 60%.  

is it healed?  I think so.  Is it "recovered?"  Probably not.

[cpuusage]

i really am in a kind of endless catch 22 / double bind - if i stop the medication, however i try i go into near catatonic & very severe psychosis.

 

i don't want to be on the medication, but what else am i meant to do in the context of the illness / difficulties? Have been through 38 years of severe mental health difficulties / very severe case of schizophrenia. Options have been & are limited. i don' have the option of access to wonderful alternatives & within my own resources & best efforts have Not been able to more fully resolve certain things. To me a lot of the issue is the wider social / systemic treatment of people. We need a far better society / system in it's treatment of mental health.

[Zeldazonk]

On 11/8/2017 at 6:20 AM, bruno2016 said:

not sure if you are not feeling well or what, but if you take something negative from my messages here, something isnt right. So before you try and lecture me, lets have a change of mindset, shall we? If you take a positive message from someone and only see something negative, how is this helping you get well? How is that helping others?  I am living proof people can get off psych meds and have a good life, even if its done the wrong way. I went cold turkey and am able to come back here and try and help others. So take your negativity elsewhere. Thanks!

 

I stand by what I said, I find that statement as trite as any "new agey" slogan but I didn't mean to judge anyone. I'm hoping I was clear about why I think it's insensitive.

 

I wish I could explain myself more but it's true, I'm just not well enough to be here. I've allowed this forum, especially the more "group think", dogmatic elements I've come across now and then to feed my self loathing and terror, and just generally make me feel like a failure. It's been a steep decline since during my tapering.

 

I guess I also get frustrated sometimes when people seem to forget that just because something worked, or seemed to work, for them doesn't mean it's now a law of nature and will work for everyone. One person's experience is not a scientific thing. I love when people are really aware of that and write carefully to avoid generalising and triggering.

 

I'll take myself away and stop upsetting myself.

 

Anyway, all the best to everyone, Zel.

[manymoretodays]

Oh ZeldaZonk, 

 

Hugs. 

 

All the best.........

[Marmot]

On 1/21/2017 at 4:20 AM, Jaco2016 said:

 

A psychiatrist has told me that my "genes are loaded" with propensity for mental illness.

 

I also wondered something similar about myself until recently, as there were people in my family with problems like mine and I personally had no past trauma or anything which I saw as a reason to be depressed. My two thoughts now about that are:

 

1) About genes: As someone else explained really well in this thread - there's more to heredity than genes. Plus, even genes may only cause illness in conjunction with environmental triggers. For example, it could just be that people in one family are more sensitive to diet or stress or whatever. Therefore, a depression might not be totally outside of our control.

 

2) About how heredity could mean that someone needs meds: For me at least, the meds aren't even fixing the problem that could theoretically have been caused by genetics. My doctors and I eventually found combinations which seemed to work wonderfully for the depression-anxiety-thingy, but somehow over a decade later my life is a mess. I probably would have been better off sticking with non-med treatments.

 

To answer your initial question of whether others would consider staying on meds for life: Until recently, I totally thought that I would need to stay on them for life. Now though, I've been noticing my personality and feelings all re-emerging while spending the past year coming off of meds. It's like waking up from a bizzare dream but the dream was my last decade of life. Things would need to get really really bad for me to go back on them once I've stopped them completely. I don't judge anyone else though if they need to do that. 

[Altostrata]

Hello, Marmot. Please start an Introductions topic for yourself -- we'd like to hear more about how you're coming off your drugs.

 

I would use a whole salt shaker on the idea that anyone's genes are "loaded" for mental illness.

[cpuusage]

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

I would use a whole salt shaker on the idea that anyone's genes are "loaded" for mental illness

Isn't it more that biology, psychology & environment is totally interrelated, interdependent & interconnected. That the main implications are epigenetic & brain plasticity effects.

 

Epigenetic Memories are Passed Down 14 Successive Generations

 

http://www.wakingtimes.com/2017/11/12/game-changing-study-epigenetic-memories-passed-14-successive-generations/

 

"Nature VS Nurture" Myth

 

http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/this-video-dispels-every-nature-vs-nurture-myth-youve-ever-heard/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lipton

 

[JanCarol]

On 16/11/2017 at 8:08 AM, Marmot said:

  On 21/01/2017 at 10:20 PM, Jaco2016 said:

 

A psychiatrist has told me that my "genes are loaded" with propensity for mental illness.

 

I also wondered something similar about myself until recently, as there were people in my family with problems like mine and I personally had no past trauma or anything which I saw as a reason to be depressed. My two thoughts now about that are:

 

1) About genes: As someone else explained really well in this thread - there's more to heredity than genes. Plus, even genes may only cause illness in conjunction with environmental triggers. For example, it could just be that people in one family are more sensitive to diet or stress or whatever. Therefore, a depression might not be totally outside of our control.

 

2) About how heredity could mean that someone needs meds: For me at least, the meds aren't even fixing the problem that could theoretically have been caused by genetics. My doctors and I eventually found combinations which seemed to work wonderfully for the depression-anxiety-thingy, but somehow over a decade later my life is a mess. I probably would have been better off sticking with non-med treatments.

 

If you are going to look at genetics there are a few other factors that need to be considered.

 

Why, in the cases of identical twins, isn't there 100% correlation as to which ones get mental illness and which ones don't?  Their genes are identical, but the correlation of "schizophrenia" is something like 40%, and "bipolar" something like 60%.  Please forgive - I read this a decade ago and have lost the source of the twin studies.  It may be in Joanna Moncreiff's "Myth of the Chemical Cure," or Robert Whitaker's "Anatomy of an Epidemic," or Paula Caplan's, "They Say You're Crazy."

Epigenetics.  I gained an understanding of this by reading Bruce Lipton's "Biology of Belief."  This helps explain why twins would have variances in mental health outcomes.  Apparently there is an (amino? enzyme? protein?) protective sheath over the replicating part of our DNA.  I am not a biologist or geneticist, so I might oversimplify.  But the DNA/RNA replication does not happen automatically.  You might have the genes for breast cancer (for example), but it will not manifest until stressors (diet, trauma, toxins, etc.) strip away that protective sheath and the DNA replicates to repair damage caused by the stressors.  These are called "insults" and result in the stripping of the sheath, and the replicating of the gene from the source code.  The sheath then recovers the DNA strand until the DNA strand is needed again.  Dr. Lipton describes this as environmental influence.  He talked about when he was growing cultures in medium, and got variances in outcomes, always to look at the medium, as it was the cause in nearly all cases.  The medium is the environment.  Additionally, epigenetic stressors can form intergenerationally.  The stresses that your grandmother had when your mother was in her womb - can manifest in you.  When you look at what our parents and grandparents went through - diaspora, holocausts, World Wars, The Great Depression - the results in today's population might start to make sense.  And the article CPU quoted - goes back 14 generations!  Thank you CPU  for providing epigenetics links!  Here's a short (5 min) video explaining Dr. Lipton's findings:  

 

 

 

There are longer lectures which explain it better, some of them by Dr. Lipton himself.

 

Overdiagnosis - while this may seem flip, the DSM has categories to diagnose everyone from a grieving widow (if she grieves longer than a number of weeks) to a restless child, to someone fixating on hangnails or feared illnesses.  The net becomes wider, and take for example the "bipolar" label - it used to be (before the drugs and DSM) that bipolar was considered episodic, and people got better and went back to work.  A small percentage might relapse and need a break, but would again recover and return to work.  Since the drugs, bipolar has become chronic (source:  Robert Whitaker "Anatomy of an Epidemic").  In the 50's, "manic depressives" were a fraction of a percent of the population.  I have some in my family - but they were never hospitalized or permanently medicated, and functioned well enough in society.  At present, this has increased something like 30-fold, with rates of "bipolar" being treated in 2.5% - 5% of the population.  This is a big net, and the criterion for sweeping people into it have expanded with categories like "Bipolar II" (often drug induced, as mine was) and Bipolar - NOS (Not Otherwise Specified).  These diagnostic criterion also expand the definitions of "borderline," "schizo-" type labels.

 

Just this morning I was meditating on my recreational drug use in my late teens and 20's.  I truly believe that they sensitised me and set me up for decades of drug experimentation of the legal kind - psych drugs.  The chronicity induced by the drugs is a given, the long term hazards of the drugs are also a given.

 

But if you are caught between a rock and a hard place - want to quit but keep falling down - then perhaps it is not the drugs which need addressing, but the environment which led you to the drugs in the first place.

Trauma is not always about childhood abuse.  Trauma might be the way you react when your brother torments and teases you and you feel helpless and become afraid of men (happened to me).  Trauma might be the pit in your stomach when you realize that the family pet didn't go to a bunch of University students, but to the University itself "for research."  Trauma might b the change in environment that led to allergies, changing schools, death of a loved one, moving house, bullying at school.  Most humans go through something like this in their lives - and it's not the event which is traumatic - but how we react to that event, how we perceive that event - even what we've been told about that event.  If we have been taught (as I was) that getting sick meant getting a break from school and pampered at home - then that reaction is conditioned, and anytime I am faced with stress, I want to withdraw into the safe harbor of "sickness."  Is it any wonder I've been chronically depressed?  Add the drugs and you've got a perfect, "lifelong illness" which would "require medication for life." 

 

Except it hasn't. 

 

and a new one:  Gut Biome - there is new research coming out saying that the difference between a fat person and a skinny person isn't metabolism at all - it's the bacteria which make up the majority of our cells, especially in the gut.  There is a lot of research also into mood and gut biome - start with a visit here for an overview:  https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/mental-health-may-depend-on-creatures-in-the-gut/  

 

I'm not saying that recovery is a cake walk - we have members who are years out from their drugs who are still struggling with after effects of the drugs, as well as the original events which led to their drugging.  It is not a journey to be taken lightly.  Personally, I spend a good deal of energy keeping my head above water so that I don't swirl down the drain again.  

But to blame it on the genes or the brain chemistry is cheap and easy, and is the way these stressors are marketed on TV and to prescribing doctors.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by JanCarol

[JanCarol]

PS - CPU - that's a GREAT film on "Nature vs. Nurture."

http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/this-video-dispels-every-nature-vs-nurture-myth-youve-ever-heard/

 

 

[manymoretodays]

Great finds/shares as usual CPU!  As well as further commentary/shares/perspectives from Jan Carol.  And yes, agreed.........biology, psychology and environment is totally interrelated, interdependent, and interconnected.  Epigentic memories are passed down for 14 successive generations..........that's a lot of years.  Thank goodness for modification, resilience and brain plasticity!

 

On 11/17/2017 at 2:17 AM, cpuusage said:

Isn't it more that biology, psychology & environment is totally interrelated, interdependent & interconnected. That the main implications are epigenetic & brain plasticity effects.

 

Epigenetic Memories are Passed Down 14 Successive Generations

 

http://www.wakingtimes.com/2017/11/12/game-changing-study-epigenetic-memories-passed-14-successive-generations/

 

"Nature VS Nurture" Myth

 

http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/this-video-dispels-every-nature-vs-nurture-myth-youve-ever-heard/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lipton

 

 

I love anything with Gaber Mate'...........he narrates a bit of the "nature vs. nuture  myth.  A very interesting perspective.  The wikipedia link is awesome too.  And I am still trying to formulate a working definition of "epigenetics"

[arwilliams]

I am stuck trying to decide staying on meds or transitioning.

It has been 3.8 years and it is only getting to get more difficult as time goes on.

[Tootsieroll]

29 minutes ago, arwilliams said:

I am stuck trying to decide staying on meds or transitioning.

It has been 3.8 years and it is only getting to get more difficult as time goes on.

Are you still currently on medication?? I found that significant healing didn't happen till I was completely off for a while. It is possible that you may need to stabilize on a certain dose before moving onto next cut.  But it really depends on your history.

[RealMe]

On 11/15/2017 at 5:08 PM, Marmot said:

Until recently, I totally thought that I would need to stay on them for life. Now though, I've been noticing my personality and feelings all re-emerging while spending the past year coming off of meds. It's like waking up from a bizzare dream but the dream was my last decade of life. Things would need to get really really bad for me to go back on them once I've stopped them completely. I don't judge anyone else though if they need to do that. 

Dear Marmot, I feel exactly the same; only instead of one decade, it was more than two decades for me.  I am so glad I found a way out of psychiatry land, and things would have to be extraordinarily crazy before I would ever return.  I have been told I would "need" to be on meds for the rest of my life, despite the fact that meds only gave me some pretty awful side effects.  I plan never to weep in a doctor's office again.  I do plan to weep but also to laugh and sing, but not in front of anyone with a prescription pad.

xo RM

[RandyJames]

The meds themselves answered this question for me.  After my first WD I was ready to stay on them for life.  I never wanted to feel that way again and my doctor told me that people can and do stay on them forever.  The problem is that they took a turn on me and I am messed up from them.  They don't "work" anymore and I am a miserable brain dead shell.  If this hadn't of happened then I'd have no plans of coming off of them.  I simply can't stay on them as they have caused damage to me weather permanent or not.  

[JakeS96]

Anybody in recovery feel like maybe they just need to take medications their whole life to function and manage symptoms to live a consistent productive life? Just been having thoughts that maybe i just need to take meds and deal with the side effects and get what I can out of the help they give me. I just feel extremely unstable and not living up to my full potential trying to fight this fight. Even basic things like going to bed at a decent time and waking up seem like impossible tasks. Just have no motivation or energy but to eat sleep and exist pretty much. Feel like I'm just floating through life as a shell of a man. Feel like I've tried almost everything to help myself. Some days I think about how my life would be if I was eating a clean whole food plant based diet, a normal sleep cycle, exercising 3-4 days a week, and meditating everyday, but lately that just seems like a life I'll never be able to have at this rate. I just want to be able to do normal things and enjoy normal things like go to work and not come home being extremely fatigued from social anxiety, or actually go to college, meet new people and make new friends. Just want to know what it feels like to actually live cause right now it just feels like i'm existing day by day. Some days I think about what it would be like to stay consistently on meds and reap the benefits and maybe they can help me achieve these things I want in life. Idk just really confused and very discouraged about this whole thing...

[StillSinging]

Hi JakeS96! I remember feeling that way all of my time on meds! It's only now that I've realized that there is hope now. I like knowing that there was a REASON I felt certain ways and for so long. I'm glad you're here!