snostorm: long term Paxil user - making another attempt

[snostorm]

Greetings

 

I am a 49 year old male.  I was prescribed Paxil 20mg 15 years ago. I was having panic attacks and originally prescribed Zoloft.  I reacted badly to that med and immediately took my self off of it.  Wasnt on it more than 3 days.  Still suffering from gripping anxiety my PCP suggested I try another med in this class as everyone reacts differently to them.  Initially I resisted but wanted relief. So I relented and took the sample starter pack of Paxil.  Within 2 weeks I was feeling better.  There was no question it had an affect. I had mild sexual side effects mainly muted orgasms.  In the big picture it was a small price to pay for not living in constant fight or flight mode.

 

I have tried numerous times to get off of this drug.  Always failing.  Being told that my symptoms where a return of what led me to go on the medication to begin with.  I could get down to 10 mg but never any lower before experiencing significant discomfort.  I would go into crises and return to my original dosage. I saw a psychiatrist and he prescribed prozac to substitute for the longer half life.  That was a huge mistake. This summer I began a new quest feeling more determined than ever to rid myself of this poison.  I got down to 10 mg and stayed there for months.  I was stable.  Using a pill cutter I got down to 5 mg and felt relatively stable.  I convinced my PCP to prescribe Paxil in liquid form.  This suspension was 10 mg per 5 ml.  I started taking 2.5ml/ equivalent of 5 mg.  I seemed ok.  So I went down to 2 ml and seemed ok.  Very little side effects. I was feeling strong so I did the very stupid thing and accelerated my taper. I went down to 1.5 ml.  then 2 weeks later went down to 1.2 ml.

 

All hell broke loose.  Panic attacks.  Flu symptoms.  Anxiety.  Crying.  Anger.  pain.  Hypochondria. I researched supplements and tried Omega 3's, B Complex, vitamin D.  researched tryptophan and 5-HTP but thought better than to try this.  It seemingly came in waves.  Everytime I hit a window I thought it was over and I was stabalizing just to hit an intense wave again.  mornings seem better with waves in the afternoon.  Im afraid I damaged my nervous system.  Im struggling with what I should do next.  I have become fearful I will always have these symptoms.  Not sure if I should up my dose or stand pat and give myself more time to stabilize.

 

I recently have had windows where I feel fantastic.  Like my old self.  Only to hit an intense wave of misery.  Its brutal. I do not trust doctors.  They are clueless.  I have been told to skip doses etc....its unreal the disservice so many people have suffered at the hands of this poison.  "Its not addictive"  you might feel uncomfortable for a week or two.  My god I want to shove this down their throats and let them feel it.

 

Should I up my dose?  Stand pat and stabilize?  I have been on 1.2 ml for 4 weeks and still feeling symptoms.  Maybe just a slight bit of improvement. 

 

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Edited June 1, 2017 by JanCarol
tags

[scallywag]

snostrom -- Welcome to Surviving Antidepressants (SA)

Paxil can be a tricky little monster at lower doses. I'm sorry that you've found this out the hard way.

Standing pat at your current dose would be wise. Let your symptoms settle down; if they don't go away entirely at least wait until they reach a level of everyday tolerable but annoying "blah" with only mild variation day to day.

A request: Would you summarize your history in a signature -- drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements, in the last 12-24 months particularly?

• Any drugs prior to 24 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years.
• Please use actual dates or approximate dates (mid-June, Late October) rather than relative time frames (last week, 3 months ago)
• Spell out months, e.g. "October" or "Oct."; 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as Jan. 9, 2016 or Sept. 1, 2016.
• Please leave out symptoms and diagnoses.
• A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs.
• You can find instructions in this topic: Please put your withdrawal history in signature
• If you are using a phone or mobile device, you need to switch to the "full" or desktop version of the site. Instructions are in Post 9 and Post 10

It's great that your doctor prescribed the liquid for you and that you were able to get it/your insurance covered it. Here are topics that are relevant to your situation:
Why taper by 10% of my dosage?.
Micro-taper instead of 10% or 5% decreases.
Tips for tapering off Paxil (paroxetine)
Making a liquid from a tablet or capsules .
Using an oral syringe and other tapering techniques.
 

I hope you'll find the information in the SA forums helpful for your situation. I'm sorry that you are in the position that you need the information, but am glad that you found us.

[Mort81]

The part about shoving it down their throats and letting them feel it sounds good to me:) . Mods will help u out here, if you feel a bit of improvement probably best to hold. See what mods say.

[snostorm]

I am grateful to have found this site. Thank you for the responses.  I remember Paxil Progress back in the day.  It has vanished.  Not sure why.  My apologies for the profanity was in a wave.  I want to sue the makers of Paxil. I also want to beat this so bad but Im thinking I need to just stop tapering for a good while here now or Im gonna hurt myself.  Im lucky enough to have a girlfriend who is sympathetic and supportive but it must be hard for her I can be difficult. Can not believe they still prescribe this stuff.

[scallywag]

Holding at a dose for an extended period of time can be very helpful. One of our moderators, KarenB, just recently started tapering Effexor again after holding for 8 months. She reports that her reaction to dose decreases is much improved -- fewer symptoms.

[snostorm]

I'm starting to regret my taper. I have been suffering through waves. I tried a high EPA omega 3 and I think it exacerbates withdrawal symptoms. Has anyone experienced this?

 

I'm thinking of reinstating a little higher does in hopes of stabalizing.

[scallywag]

On what day in January did you reduce from 2.5 mg to 2.2 mg?

 

Changing dose, up OR down, can be destabilizing. Most often the lowest risk action is no action -- staying at the same dose.

[snostorm]

Early. I'm not exactly sure what the date was. I was feeling like I made some progress. This week I have had some trouble sleeping. I think this doesn't help. My anxiety is high poor concentration. I have been reading a lot and I'm freaking myself out that I damaged my nervous system by going to fast

[KarenB]

Fish oil (or any supplement) which is fine for most people in w/d, can be activating for some.  You might try reducing it, or even stopping it for a while and noting what happens.  It's also best to take fish oil in the morning.

 

I think nearly everybody panics that they have damaged their brain or nervous system.  Partly this is because w/d is so slow to end, and the healing so slow to happen.  We are used to quick fixes.  What we see here though, is that people do recover.  Bit by bit, symptom by symptom, people heal.  I imagine the the healing is so slow precisely because our brains are doing a thorough job.  Things this delicate can't be rushed - and actually, we probably wouldn't want them to be, or we'd risk ending up a bit skewed somehow...

 

I hope you'll take some time to look through these.  I found them very reassuring when I first arrived here. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/10732-best-description-of-healing-process/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mea-NdKBpUQ

https://beyondmeds.com/category/mindfulness/

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1160-how-psychiatric-drugs-remodel-your-brain/

[snostorm]

Thank you for the response Karen.  It helps to know we do heal.  You read people who have protracted  withdrawal syndrome and its flat out scary.  Regarding the fish oil....I tried a new brand, "Nordic Naturals" high EPA with the thought of relief.  I have been on fish oil before and never had this effect.  I stopped it for a few days and didn't experience the reaction.  Took it yesterday and had a strong wave so I disposed of the rest of it. 

 

Thank you for the links I will most certainly utilize them.  

[Altostrata]

Welcome, snostorm.

 

You might want to put that good fish oil in the freezer for a bit. You may be able to take it later.

 

Please keep daily notes on paper of your symptom pattern, when you take your drugs, and their dosages.

 

Since your last reduction of Paxil, has your symptom pattern gotten worse, better, or stayed the same?

[snostorm]

Welcome, snostorm.

 

You might want to put that good fish oil in the freezer for a bit. You may be able to take it later.

 

Please keep daily notes on paper of your symptom pattern, when you take your drugs, and their dosages.

 

Since your last reduction of Paxil, has your symptom pattern gotten worse, better, or stayed the same?

 

I would have to say it seems transient. Symptoms are different.  More anxiety and insomnia less physical pain and flu like symptoms.

[snostorm]

I'm curious about the consistency of Paxil liquid formulation. Seems when I get a new batch I feel different. Im on low dose so I'm thinking I'm very sensitive to the the amount of medication I am actually getting.

[scallywag]

Are you taking brand-name Paxil or generic paroxetine?  If it's generic paroxetine, there's a strong chance that your current bottle is from a different generic manufacturer and that you're reacting to the change in the fillers and flow agents.

 

If it's the brand name, it could be that there is a variation in the concentration of the active ingredient between batches and that you are sensitive to it.  If that's the case, it's something that you'll have to plan for and accommodate because manufacturing regulations (?) and practices allow for some variation.

 

How could you plan for it? Off the top of my head, first don't make dosage changes around the time you need to get a new prescription. Second, you could make sure to save some of the "old" liquid and mix it with the new liquid in stages:

1. 75% old + 25% new for 1 week or longer
2. 50/50 for 1 week or longer
3. 25% old + 75% new for 1 week or longer
4. 100% new
5. wait several weeks before making a dosage change.

[scallywag]

Recently tried a high EPA fish oil with very negative effect. I have been on fish oil before with no negative effect. Wondering if the break down of EPA DHA concentration had anything to do with it.

Most of us need to start with a partial dose, ¼ or ½, of the amount recommended on the bottle and work our way up. Did you try that?

 

It could also be a filler or flow agent, or a component/ingredient of the gel capsule itself.

[snostorm]

Thank you for the response scally.. I am going togo back to a brand that I used before I switched that seemed to give me some benefit. Its funny I dont get brain zaps anymore.  I do get fatigue, anxiety....it seems I am having sinus issues.  I am unsure of this is related to withdrawal.

[snostorm]

I am having a very difficult time. I seem to be experiencing significant waves now after my new prescription of liquid Paxil. Gripping anxiety, blurred vision, severe agitation I'm fearful I did damage. I'm considering upping my dosein the hopes I stabilize. I'm at 2.2 mg. Was thinking of upping to 2.5. Any thoughts?

[KarenB]

Don't up-dose yet snowstorm, as another change might just make it worse.  It can take a week or so for things to settle when you've made a change.  Did you go straight to liquid?  I.E. no gradual changeover?  This could make it a bumpier transition.  

 

How many days have you taken liquid for? 

[snostorm]

I have been on liquid for 3 months. I just got a new prescription. Dose has been constant for over a month. It almost seems this new prescription isn't as strong. I started new batch 3 days ago and I am suffering significantly.

[scallywag]

What is your symptom pattern? If you've been keeping a log that tracks both the time you take doses and the time your symptoms occur, please post a few days worth of  your notes.
 
Otherwise please keep notes on paper of your symptoms and the times of your dose(s). This post has a useful format for a daily log:
Take notes of doses and symptoms.

Seeing whether there's a pattern in your symptoms may help track down the source of what's caused the recent intensification.

[snostorm]

Afternoons seem to be when I get waves. I take my medication first thing in the morning. Today I am much better. I shook the bottle vigorously wondering if there was a problem with the suspension. Today was much better than yesterday. Just some anxiety. Yesterday I was almost suicidal. Just brutal.

[scallywag]

Maybe shaking the bottle vigourously is the answer. Let us know how you're doing after a few days of workouts with the Paxil bottle.

[nz11]

I got down to 10 mg and stayed there for months.  I was stable.  Using a pill cutter I got down to 5 mg and felt relatively stable.  I convinced my PCP to prescribe Paxil in liquid form.  This suspension was 10 mg per 5 ml.  I started taking 2.5ml/ equivalent of 5 mg.  I seemed ok.  So I went down to 2 ml and seemed ok.  Very little side effects. I was feeling strong so I did the very stupid thing and accelerated my taper. I went down to 1.5 ml.  then 2 weeks later went down to 1.2 ml.

All hell broke loose. 

 

I think imo what you are suffering here is the outcome of dropping too fast and may have originated from the drop back in oct of 25% then another 33 % drop in dose in nov and then a whopping 50% drop in dec. These low doses are a mine field and need to be tip toed through refer member Songbird

It is well known that symptoms can be delayed for several months and 3 is very common. Three months ago you were in oct 16 ...

 

So you say you went to liquid 3 mnths ago..i take that as nov 16 and you did so with no problems at the time right?

You could well be right about the change to liquid causing problems but imo i think the major player here is the dropping too fast back in oct. and the subsequent rush for the exit door thereafter.

If you cant hold at the current levels and it seems you cant for i can see the iatrogenically induced 's' word in your postings then imo if i were you i would updose.

[snostorm]

I dont use the S word lightly.  I was in crises.  Scared.  I let life pressures influence my better judgement and came down too fast.   Im thinking I need to updose even though I am a bit better today.  Not sure how high though.  Is Paxil forever? This is what keeps going through my mind.  Im afraid i will never heal. I read article after article that says withdrawal will last a few weeks to a few months in rare cases.  There are so many that say this.  I boggles my mind.  It seems the only truth is in user forums who have experienced this SSRI hell.  I would think that these forums would logically be populated with people who have difficulty. And that there should be a larger population of people who have successfully come off of this drug.  Im learning that its not the case.  What an unbelievable screw job by the pharmaceutical companies and the FDA,

 

"Its a return of the symptoms for which you took the drug for in the first place"  I cant tell you how many times I have heard that one.  Makes you want to scream. At this point I would updose to 10mg and stabalize but from what Im reading that might not be a good idea.  5?  2.5? very confused.

[MollyN]

Hi snostorm, 

 

I haven't been on the forums for quite a while, but it's never far from my mind even now that I'm 6 mths drug free. I read your story and wanted to respond because all you've written I could have written myself. I (and basically everyone here) understand all the fear, rage and despair.

 

I too noticed any little change, like shaking the bottle and also when the pharmacist prescribed a generic brand I freaked out, I rung the manufacturer begging for help (they just took all my details and.. stoney silence).

 

At my lowest point I ended up sitting in NA meeting surrounded by addicts and being the only one who couldn't speak because I wasn't 'clean'. We laugh about it now and but damn what a nightmare!

 

I want to encourage you!! This is NOT how you will stay! One day you'll look back and it will be like a very, very bad dream.

 

These drugs are intensely harmful. It often makes me feel very weary when I hear people outside of this site discussing these drugs and they just don't understand, and take horrid advice like the blimmin '20mg one day, 10mg the next' repeat arghhhhhhh inevitably the poor soul spins out and of course their friends/doctors/family say 'oh look how unwell you really are, quick take this pill (and an extra one for good measure). Sorry I know I'm preaching to the choir, but it's hard looking like a conspiracy theorist whenever you gently raise the possiblity that it's the drugs and the way they are withdrawn from that is at fault.

 

I just hung out here in the safety of this beautiful site until I felt well, and I'm back in now because it's still hard somedays and I need to be reassured in a safe environment

 

All the very very very best and huge hugs!!

[nz11]

 I read article after article that says withdrawal will last a few weeks to a few months in rare cases.  There are so many that say this.  I boggles my mind.  It seems the only truth is in user forums who have experienced this SSRI hell.  I would think that these forums would logically be populated with people who have difficulty. And that there should be a larger population of people who have successfully come off of this drug.  Im learning that its not the case.  What an unbelievable screw job by the pharmaceutical companies and the FDA,

 

"Its a return of the symptoms for which you took the drug for in the first place"  I cant tell you how many times I have heard that one.  Makes you want to scream. At this point I would updose to 10mg and stabalize but from what Im reading that might not be a good idea.  5?  2.5? very confused.

Nothing like seeing the Emporer has no clothes on ...ssri wdl can do that to a person.

You are onto it.

 

Don't worry you are not alone we have all been the victims of this mass collective delusion within the medical profession and consequently within society. Its been fuelled by pharma who i might add have reaped mind bogalling rewards as a consequence.

[KarenB]

So far it looks like there are a few possible causes:

1.  Not shaking the bottle well before dosing.

2.  Anecdotally, we notice that many people hit a rough patch at around 5-7 months, which fits your time-frame.

3.  NZ11's observation that you dropped by large amounts in October, November and December. 

 

#1 & #2 wouldn't be helped by an up-dose.

#3 might be. 

 

You reported having a better day.  Can you wait another day or two and see if that trend continues?  I do suggest up-dosing to people who's destabilisation is caused by fast tapering, but we want to be sure that's the cause first. 

 

Here's what I think about success stories.  They are starting to emerge (and thanks Molly for popping in with yours) but this site is relatively new and perhaps we will be the first generation of people to succeed.  We will be the ones to safely taper, to get our lives back, to be able to say to others it can be done. 

[snostorm]

thank you. Thank you all so much. I am a 49 year old male. 61 220 lbs. once proud. A leader. Bit of an alpha male. I have been reduced to a driveling mess. Reading the prior two posts brought me to tears this morning. I am grateful for this site. I will chronicle my journey.

[snostorm]

I shook my bottle vigorously. I updosed to 1.5 ml. This equates to 2.5 mg from 2.2. I'm doing ok so far in the mood department. I feel a bit wired. Little edgy. My vision at times I's slightly blurred. Keeping busy helps. I work in healthcare and I just was hit with a crises that could impact patient care. Had to make an executive decision as I' found out I was the ranking supervisor due to sick calls. I'm like oh boy. I need to stabilize. My gut tells me to reinstate to 10 mg. Stabilize then start a slow taper the way it's recommended. What are the dangers of this. I have gone from 7.5 mg back to 20 in the past and stabilized. Is going from 2.2 mg to 10 a recipe for disaster?

[scallywag]

You need to give your CNS (central nervous system) time to adjust to the new dose. It takes 4-5 days to reach the new steady state cycle range and then about another week for your CNS to respond to the change.

 

Increasing to 10 mg from your current dose of 2.5 mg *may* effectively address your symptoms but it *may* cause further destabilization. Because of that risk, some people find it's better to sneak up on the lowest effective dose for than to overshoot it.  One predictable disadvantage of going to 10 mg is that your eventual taper will be about a year longer than the one from 2.5 mg.

[snostorm]

Big anxiety wave this afternoon. It's effecting my ability to function. Going to PCP prescription. Maybe I will try to stabilize at 5 first

[snostorm]

Classic.doctor. Well i have brought people off of Paxil pretty easily. Half the doses blah blah blah. If you are having symptoms you need to be on it. He said up your dose to 5 you are going through divorce and stressed and it's not the right time. Which is probably accurate. He did say liquid could be problematic. PhRmacy could get the formulation from different supplier. Not sure of the validity of that. I remember going from regular Paxil to generic and feeling it so it is plausible. I'm going to updose to 5 mg and see how I feel. He also told me to stay off the internet. Lol

[ChessieCat]

Have you considered trying 2.5 or 3 mg?

[snostorm]

Yes I have. Right now I'm feeling the liquid suspension is a problem. It's wat too coincidental that right after I picked up the latest batch I started having significant discomfort. I felt like I went cold turkey. I'm going to speak to my pharmacist and see if they came from the same vendor. I feel like my dose had been yo yo ing. My primary goal is stabilizing. I'm going to tablets. I might go 2.5. the doctor says go 5. But he doesn't buy into discontinuation syndrome so there is that. Pick up my tabs in the am. Time to bust out the pill cutter.

[ChessieCat]

That sounds like a good plan.

 

Have you seen these topics?

 

How do you talk to a doctor about tapering and withdrawal?

 

What should I expect from my doctor about withdrawal symptoms?

[LostInTheWoods]

Can you cut less than quarters from a pill evenly? Mines always crumbled so I wouldn't trust them more on getting exact doses than a suspension.