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Excitotoxicity: Glutamanergic Hyperactivity Induced Toxicity?


oskcajga

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I rarely post topics like this, but I believe I've finally stumbled upon one of the potential mechanisms behind the symptoms that I've been suffering with for the past several years.  It's in regards to the hypothesized glutamanergic hyperactivity related to downregulation of serotonin receptors, as hypothesized by some prominent members of this forum.  At first I tended to dismiss that hypothesis as simple disregulation which would result in the brain communicating incorrectly with its various regions, but then I did a little bit more investigation and stumbled upon this:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excitotoxicity

 

Long Story Short:  Glutamate in the correct proportions is critical for the correct functioning of the central nervous system - but when these proportions change, the effects can be disastrous.   If SSRI users experience chronic downregulation of serotonin receptors, which then causes an uptick in glutamanergic processes - how can one not see the possible connection?  Even short term increases in a "glutamanergic storm" in the brain can cause serious harm in healthy people - what happens when we not only have a glutamanergic storm, but also a hyperactive sympathetic nervous system, and all the downstream effects of increased levels of norepinephrine, cortisol, - changes in acetylcholine, dopamine, thyroid hormones, sex hormones, etc etc etc etc? 

 

It's definitely not good, and anyone who escapes taking antidepressants without long term harm should honestly consider themselves as lucky as someone who manages to walk away from a plane wreck unscathed. 

 

It's hypothesized with a remarkable amount of anecdotal evidence at this juncture that antidepressants can cause neuropathies, this is evidenced by PSSD and various long term symptoms that people who try to stop taking antidepressants experience (eye pain, burning in the head, burning and tingling in the extremities, a "wet glove" sensation along the limbs)". 

 

Dr. Healy considers neuropathies in more detail in this video:

 

(START AT 29 MINUTES): 

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I rarely post topics like this, but I believe I've finally stumbled upon one of the potential mechanisms behind the symptoms that I've been suffering with for the past several years.  It's in regards to the hypothesized glutamanergic hyperactivity related to downregulation of serotonin receptors, as hypothesized by some prominent members of this forum.  At first I tended to dismiss that hypothesis as simple disregulation which would result in the brain communicating incorrectly with its various regions, but then I did a little bit more investigation and stumbled upon this:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excitotoxicity

 

Long Story Short:  Glutamate in the correct proportions is critical for the correct functioning of the central nervous system - but when these proportions change, the effects can be disastrous.   If SSRI users experience chronic downregulation of serotonin receptors, which then causes an uptick in glutamanergic processes - how can one not see the possible connection?  Even short term increases in a "glutamanergic storm" in the brain can cause serious harm in healthy people - what happens when we not only have a glutamanergic storm, but also a hyperactive sympathetic nervous system, and all the downstream effects of increased levels of norepinephrine, cortisol, - changes in acetylcholine, dopamine, thyroid hormones, sex hormones, etc etc etc etc? 

 

It's definitely not good, and anyone who escapes taking antidepressants without long term harm should honestly consider themselves as lucky as someone who manages to walk away from a plane wreck unscathed. 

 

It's hypothesized with a remarkable amount of anecdotal evidence at this juncture that antidepressants can cause neuropathies, this is evidenced by PSSD and various long term symptoms that people who try to stop taking antidepressants experience (eye pain, burning in the head, burning and tingling in the extremities, a "wet glove" sensation along the limbs)". 

 

Dr. Healy considers neuropathies in more detail in this video:

 

(START AT 29 MINUTES): 

 

Great  info thanks .truly scary what we face by the sounds of what doctor healy  describes .very interesting towards the end about doctors and there attitude, we are looking at generations before the vast majority change.my own doctor has been hostile to the criticism from me .I've told him on many occasions I believe your trying to help but this is not the way I've learned anymore  I've said to him .

I try to reinforce appreciation for the help ,I want to keep an open dialogue with him so he can see it can be done a different way.

He is actually pretty open minded in other ways ,he's a fan of Eckhart tolle and I've recently told him about gabor mate ,so I believe there is hope  .

Alcohol free since February 2015 

1MG diazepam

4.5MG PROZAC.

 

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

It seems more likely to me that excitotoxitiy would occur after stopping an SSRI rather than during "treatment".  During "treatment", the downregulation of serotonin receptors will be effectuated due to increased levels of serotonin in the synapse which should establish some form of homeostasis between the brain regions that resembles baseline levels.  It's after stopping that the downregulation of the receptors causes the problems described above because there is a lack of serotonin in the synapses while simultaneously your brain is waiting for the 5ht receptors to be re-synthesized. 

 

Perhaps this is why people experience such profound withdrawal reactions:  their body is being overstimulated to the point of possible toxicity.

 

Overall, I think that excitotoxicity is probably just PART of the situation but even if this occurs to a small degree, even for a short period of time (a matter of weeks until serotonin receptors resynthesize) the effects can be quite problematic and probably last for a while.

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hi thanks for this very intersting .

I have got alot of nasty symptoms

 

It seems more likely to me that excitotoxitiy would occur after stopping an SSRI rather than during "treatment".  During "treatment", the downregulation of 5h5 receptors will be effectuated due to increased levels of serotonin in the synapse which should establish some form of homeostasis between the brain regions that resembles baseline levels.  It's after stopping that the downregulation of the receptors causes the problems described above because there is a lack of serotonin in the synapses while simultaneously your brain is waiting for the 5ht receptors to be re-synthesized. 

 

Perhaps this is why people experience such profound withdrawal reactions:  their body is being overstimulated to the point of possible toxicity.

 

hi .this is very interesting ,I'm dealing with a lot of nasty withdrawal symptoms and I'm still on 37.5 ,went off 75mg overnight bout 18 months ago ,so i wonder does this create the same disregulation    in the brain .

Alcohol free since February 2015 

1MG diazepam

4.5MG PROZAC.

 

 

 

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I never knew Dr David Healy was an Irishman, you learn something new everyday as they say...

May 2007 - October 2007 Citalopram 20 mg od. 1st Antidepressant ever taken. No problem with fast taper and no withdrawal effects. No antidepressants for over 5 years.

 

January 2013 started Citalopram 20mg.

March 2014 Switched to Sertraline 50 mg od.

23rd June 2016 started taper 45mg

23.07.16 40.5mg 23.08.16 36.45mg 27.09.16 34.65mg 24.10.16 32.90mg 28.11.16 31.26mg 04.01.17 32mg 25.02.17 31mg 22.03.17 30mg 14.04.17 29mg 09.05.17 28mg 07.06.17 27mg 08.06.17 26mg 13.07.17 25mg 07.08.17 24mg 24.08.17 23mg 13.09.17 22mg 12.10.17 21mg 10.11.17 20mg 04.12.17 19mg 01.01.18 17mg 25.01.18 15mg 22.02.18 13.5mg 25.03.18 12.15mg 

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  • 2 years later...

SSRIs and other drugs to not cause "glutamate storms". Yes, they increase glutamate due to upregulayted glumatate receptors, but these storms are from physical head trauma in which cells are ruptured (stroke, car accidents, TBI). 

I hope everyone is doing better? 

1990s-early 2000s: On and off different AD medicines like Paxil, Zoloft, Prozac, and Lexapro.

2004: Klonopin .75-1 mg a day for anxiety.

2012: Started micro-taper off Klonopin. Used Benadryl or Doxylamine for sleep nightly. Melatonin. Ate clean and did exercise.

2014: Finished micro-taper with very little PAWS. No more Klonopin.  Started fish oil, probiotics, vitamins, and curcumin.  

November 2016: ADHD medicines: Vyvanse (60 mg), Dexedrine (15 mg), Adderall (15 mg), Desoxyn (20 mg) at various times, not at once.

March 2017: Mirtazapine 7.5 mg but immediately went up to 15 mg but then back down to 12, then 7.5 mg. For insomnia, not for depression. Melatonin too.

November 2017: Dropped to 3.75 mg Mirtazapine and eventually started taking it every other day or so.

 February 2018: Stopped 3.75 Mirtazapine after ER visit. Stabilized on Klonopin .125 mg as prepare to micro-taper again.Also stopped melatonin after a few years of use (5-20 mg a night). 

February 2019: One year later: The worst is over. Far from back to normal but 24/7 dread and fear adrenaline surges and suicidal ideation are done. Still anxiety, parasthesia, dysuatonomia, tinnitus, and minor insomnia but I'm also a year into my Klonopin taper down to .016 so much of this could be to that. I still have occasional feelings of unease (serotonin) but it's much better than 24/7 doom. I will have a success story and so will you! 

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  • 6 months later...

Even If glutamate levels increased during SSRI WD, I highly doubt someone would experience a "glutamate storm" unless you were going through some SERIOUS alcohol or benzo withdrawal, plus trauma happening like @PabloHoney825 said. Now the question is, does the increased levels of glutamate during SSRI WD cause harm to the affected neurons? I cant find any research on that. I would suspect that one would feel the results of increased glutamate activity (hyperalgesia, anxiety, restlessness..) but to say neurons are experiencing DEATH is a big leap.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3968911/

 

Im all for hypothesising mechanisms of WD, but we have to remember the brain is EXTREMELY complex and resilient. We also have not read all of the studies out there nor are we trained neurologist with access to specific research. Over simplification and quick accusation with limited knowledge and evidence can lead to sceptical conclusions. 

 

Now lets just say EVEN IF "glutamate storms" or exitotoxicity happened during AD WD, the process of prevention (proper tapering) and recovery would be the same for everyone. All of us here want to be informed, but at the same time we are all trying to heal. Its like trying to go back and figure out how the car wreck happened is not going to help those already hurt from it. It has already happened. We don't need added anxiety, grief, or regret during the healing process. Most of us here probably already have googled evey symptom we have and found all the worse possible outcomes and causes. I hope this helps ease the minds of others 💚

2014 - April 2019 150mg Fluvoxamine ER 

Fast taper beginning in April 2019 and ending in June 2019

Off Fluvoxamine for 6 weeks with severe WD.

12 mg of Ambien xr for insomnia.

After 6 weeks reinstated fluvoxamine 150mg Aug 2019 - December 2019

Jan 2020 able to get off Ambien and started slow taper to get of Fluvoxamine but taper was not slow enough. 10% reduction every week. still experiencing WD from first attempt.

March 2020 switch to 75mg Effexor xr

April 2020 37.5mg Effexor xr, bridged to Trintellix, and now off Effexor

 

4/25/2020 5mg Trintellix

 

 

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  • 3 years later...

Titled: Glutamate excess symptoms + interventions

 

Glutamate is a key excitatory neurotransmitter that is key for things like memory and focus; yet, in excess, it can create a feeling of overwhelm, restlessness and even create or increase pain among other symptoms. Excess excitation is neurotoxic and detrimental to our health.

 

Zunhammer M, Schweizer LM, Witte V, Harris RE, Bingel U, Schmidt-Wilcke T. Combined glutamate and glutamine levels in pain-processing brain regions are associated with individual pain sensitivity. Pain. 2016 Oct;157(10):2248-2256. doi: 10.1097/j.pain.0000000000000634. PMID: 27649042.


The withdrawal / adverse reaction / iatrogenic injured brain being in an overexcited state, it should not come as a surprise that glutamate, along with norepinephrine and cortisol, is thought to be a potential culprit of a plethora of symptoms we go through. Be it restlessness, agitation, insomnia, burning, piercing or pain sensations, it is likely glutamate is involved.

 

Schmidt-Wilcke T, Diers M. New insights into the pathophysiology and treatment of fibromyalgiaBiomedicines. 2017;5(4):22-. doi:10.3390/biomedicines5020022


I myself suffer from constant agitation and have come to believe excess glutamate is a key part of the problem. That said, why, for some people, rebalancing GABA/Glutamate takes months to years seems a mystery.
While we wait for things to normalize, there are certain  glutamate-focused interventions that can be easily implemented:

- Vitamin B3 (B vitamins supplementation can be stimulating so be cautious, a dietary approach might be best)

- Magnesium (Always start at small doses to see what works for you)

- Omega 3 (Always start at small doses to see what works for you)

- Reduce or eliminate stimulants

- Mild exercise

- Meditation
- Forest Bathing
- Different types of therapy (CBT/EMDR/DBT)
- Terpenes
...

The video below was quite eye-opening to me. While I believe we should stay way from brain-altering substances (including natural ones), every other single suggestion included is worth considering. If anybody has any other glutamate insights, I'd love to read it.

 

 

Edited by manymoretodays
merged to similar topic, title added

December 2021 - Metoclopramide started. Akathisia symptoms start; Metoclopramide gets changed to PRN.

March 2022 - Akathisia diagnosed; Metoclopramide stopped; Propranolol 10mg x twice a day. Biperiden PRN (0.5mg to 1mg).

April 2022 - Tandospirone 30mg (10mg 3x day), Quetiapine 25mg (only taken once, immediate adr). Mirtazapine 7.5mg. . Discontinued Propranolol.

May 2022 - Mirtazapine upped to 15mg. Tandospirone cut to 2x 10mg. Low dose Depakote for the month; 100 to 200 to 100 to 0. Mirtazapine cut back to 11.75mg (3/4 of a 15mg pill).
June 2022 - Mirtazapine updose to 15mg. Tandospirone, Biperiden discontinued. Klonopin started PRN (0.5mg). 
September 2022 - Akathisia slowly starts improving, WD/ADR normal sets in in mid September. Hold for 4 months.
March 2023 - Off mirtazapine; no Klonopin for 5 months either! Started quercetin (250mg x 2) to soften the histamine rebound.

May 2023 - Stopped quercetin and changed from magnesium carbonate to oxide - reacted badly. Reverted back to carbonate. 
June 2023 - Added fish oil.
Current regimen: CALM Magnesium (Carbonate into Citrate) 175mg x2; Vitamin E 268mg x2; Fish oil (100mg Omega3; EPA 30mg; DHA 37mg)x2
Intro thread: 
https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/27095-portuguesesea-metoclopramide-akathisia-and-mirtazapine/

 

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It could be both a GABA/Glutamate unbalance AND a serotonin-driven glutamate excess.

 

For me the real mystery though is why for some people these systems take years to rebalance. One would imagine months at most would suffice.

December 2021 - Metoclopramide started. Akathisia symptoms start; Metoclopramide gets changed to PRN.

March 2022 - Akathisia diagnosed; Metoclopramide stopped; Propranolol 10mg x twice a day. Biperiden PRN (0.5mg to 1mg).

April 2022 - Tandospirone 30mg (10mg 3x day), Quetiapine 25mg (only taken once, immediate adr). Mirtazapine 7.5mg. . Discontinued Propranolol.

May 2022 - Mirtazapine upped to 15mg. Tandospirone cut to 2x 10mg. Low dose Depakote for the month; 100 to 200 to 100 to 0. Mirtazapine cut back to 11.75mg (3/4 of a 15mg pill).
June 2022 - Mirtazapine updose to 15mg. Tandospirone, Biperiden discontinued. Klonopin started PRN (0.5mg). 
September 2022 - Akathisia slowly starts improving, WD/ADR normal sets in in mid September. Hold for 4 months.
March 2023 - Off mirtazapine; no Klonopin for 5 months either! Started quercetin (250mg x 2) to soften the histamine rebound.

May 2023 - Stopped quercetin and changed from magnesium carbonate to oxide - reacted badly. Reverted back to carbonate. 
June 2023 - Added fish oil.
Current regimen: CALM Magnesium (Carbonate into Citrate) 175mg x2; Vitamin E 268mg x2; Fish oil (100mg Omega3; EPA 30mg; DHA 37mg)x2
Intro thread: 
https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/27095-portuguesesea-metoclopramide-akathisia-and-mirtazapine/

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • Moderator Emeritus

Interesting @PortugueseSea  I did find a similar topic so merged your 2 posts here.

Yeah, so many mysteries....... 🤔

Late 2023- gone to emeritus status, inactive, don't @ me, I can check who I've posted on, and I'm not really here like I used to be......thanks.

Started with psycho meds/psychiatric care circa 1988.  In retrospect, and on contemplation, situational overwhelm.

Rounding up to 30 years of medications(30 medication trials, poly-pharmacy maximum was 3 at one time).

5/28/2015-off Adderal salts 2.5mg. (I had been on that since hospital 10/2014)

12/2015---just holding, holding, holding, with trileptal/oxcarb at 75 mg. 1/2 tab at hs.  My last psycho med ever!  Tapered @ 10% every 4 weeks, sometimes 2 weeks to

2016 Dec 16 medication free!!

Longer signature post here, with current supplements.

Herb and alcohol free since 5/15/2016.  And.....I quit smoking 11/2021. Lapsed.  Redo of quit smoking 9/28/2022.  Can you say Hallelujah?(took me long enough)💜

None of my posts are intended as medical advice.  Please discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical provider.  My success story:  Blue skies ahead, clear sailing

 

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On 8/15/2023 at 9:52 PM, PortugueseSea said:

It could be both a GABA/Glutamate unbalance AND a serotonin-driven glutamate excess.

 

For me the real mystery though is why for some people these systems take years to rebalance. One would imagine months at most would suffice.

It may have to do with how neuroplastic you are how extensive the changes are to your brain and body from being on the meds. If you are more neuroplastic then systemic changes are probably made quicker and then they probably take a lot longer to undo. Also if you're like me and had a lot of side effects like diabetes and metabolic syndrome your entire body has been altered by changes to these systems so your entire body has to be undone and rebuilt which I imagine would take a pretty damn long time.

Current Psychiatric Medications

  1. Paxil 10mg daily (a.m.) 2017 - Present
  2. Carbamazepine IR  190 mg twice daily (380mg Daily) 2011 - Present (Currently Tapering)

Past Psychiatric Medications From 1994 to August 2021   Seroquel (in Recovery since August 2021 final dose 6.25mg), Depakote, Lithium, Risperidone, Xanax, Lamotrigene, Olanzapine, Lorazepam, Welbutrin, Trazodone, Oxazepam, Gabapentin, Abilify, Topiramate, Prazosin, Ambien (See Attached Spreadsheet And Seroquel Tapering And WIthdrawal Summary)

Current Non Psychiatric Medications Levothyroxine 88mcg (a.m.)-Vitamin D3 1000 IU (p.m.)-Fexofenadine 180 mg twice daily -Clonidine 0.1 mg (p.m.)-Azelastine Nasal Spray

Other - Fish Oil Twice Daily-Multi-Vitamin (a.m.)-Vitamin C 1000mg Daily (a.m.)-Saline Nasal Spray-Salsalate 750mg twice daily PRN, Diclofenac Gel on affected joint PRN-Magnesium Citrate 250mg twice daily, Betaine HCL & Digestine Enzymes With Meals

Quitting Seroquel_A Vacation In Hell_Redacted.pdf

Other Documents https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/26099-feralcatman-recovering-from-seroquel/?do=findComment&comment=633907

 

 

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On 8/27/2023 at 3:01 AM, FeralCatman said:

If you are more neuroplastic then systemic changes are probably made quicker and then they probably take a lot longer to undo.


That makes a whole lot of sense, and it definitely seems to apply to me. Associations between neurons are made quickly and then take a world of time to undo. Sheesh. 

I was recently advised to do a full neurological work-up because of the weird symptoms (low grade fever, nausea) when I had my adverse reaction. Will definitely keep everyone updated but do not expect much out of it.

 

As far as I am concerned, the reaction was what it was and I am just taking a bunch of time to recover. It is ironic when you find yourself rooting for a rare illness diagnosis because you are hoping for a quicker way out of this mess.

 

 

December 2021 - Metoclopramide started. Akathisia symptoms start; Metoclopramide gets changed to PRN.

March 2022 - Akathisia diagnosed; Metoclopramide stopped; Propranolol 10mg x twice a day. Biperiden PRN (0.5mg to 1mg).

April 2022 - Tandospirone 30mg (10mg 3x day), Quetiapine 25mg (only taken once, immediate adr). Mirtazapine 7.5mg. . Discontinued Propranolol.

May 2022 - Mirtazapine upped to 15mg. Tandospirone cut to 2x 10mg. Low dose Depakote for the month; 100 to 200 to 100 to 0. Mirtazapine cut back to 11.75mg (3/4 of a 15mg pill).
June 2022 - Mirtazapine updose to 15mg. Tandospirone, Biperiden discontinued. Klonopin started PRN (0.5mg). 
September 2022 - Akathisia slowly starts improving, WD/ADR normal sets in in mid September. Hold for 4 months.
March 2023 - Off mirtazapine; no Klonopin for 5 months either! Started quercetin (250mg x 2) to soften the histamine rebound.

May 2023 - Stopped quercetin and changed from magnesium carbonate to oxide - reacted badly. Reverted back to carbonate. 
June 2023 - Added fish oil.
Current regimen: CALM Magnesium (Carbonate into Citrate) 175mg x2; Vitamin E 268mg x2; Fish oil (100mg Omega3; EPA 30mg; DHA 37mg)x2
Intro thread: 
https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/27095-portuguesesea-metoclopramide-akathisia-and-mirtazapine/

 

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  • 1 month later...

This theory of mechanism of withdrawal seems to be becoming more popular. Dr. Josef Witt-Doerring subscribes to it as well especially when one has a delayed withdrawal, 2-3 months after stopping. It makes sense to me. I’m interested in any research in the works for damage to the c nerves as Dr. Healy talks about. 

Prozac: 2014: July 25, 10mg, 2021: September/October, 0
Lexapro: 2021: September/October, 10mg, June, 5mg, July, 0

Sertraline: 2021: June 17, 50mg, 2022: February 14, 25mg, April 6, 12.5mg, April, 16, 0, July 31-August 5, 25mg, August 6, 0

Buspar: 2022: February 22, 5mg, April 6, 0, August 6-9, 5mg, August 14, 5mg, August 15, 5mg, August 20-21, 5mg

Mitrazapine: 2022: August 1, 7.5, August 2, 7.5, August 3, 0

Trazodone: 2022, August 3, 50mg, August 4, 0

Seroquel: 2022, August 4, 50mg, August 6, 50mg, August 14, 25mg

Klonipin: 2022: August 5-11, 2022: August 11-Present

Celexa: 2022, August 10-14, 5mg, 2022: August 16, 2.5mg

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Something like this happens to me:
If otherwise there are normal wave patterns and better in the meantime, then almost always after an effort the situation gets very bad
If, for example, you do moderate physical work for half a day, you will feel very tired and exhausted after finishing the activity
At the same time, there is also soreness and weakness in the limbs and body
There is a complete lack of internal energy and a feeling of emptiness.
If it has lasted for a few hours and doesn't get better, I get very anxious and restless and agitated
But it's not normal anxiety, I just can't switch off and go to recovery
This, in turn, causes severe depression and despair that it will not recover, and there is also a feeling of physical irritation in the head.
The brain seems to be overactive and at the same time there is exhaustion-fatigue.
I usually have strong compulsions later in the evening and can't fall asleep.
I am tired, agitated and have suicidal thoughts.
And at the same time, my life is fine and depression is tolerable on a normal day (if there is no wave)
Physical exertion gives me a strong wave that lasts several days.
It seems that physical exertion increases cortisol and this in turn suppresses glutamate or noradrenaline-dopamine.
I am very worried about it and mostly I try to avoid the effort but it is not always possible
I told the doctor about this and he suggested trying low dose Pregabalin.
But it seems addictive and I don't want to add another drug to wean off again later
Is it possible to alleviate it with some supplements or will it come back later?
Or will it remain so that the effort will cause such a thing?
Are there any success stories about it?

Xanax 0,5mg 1999-2019 a Xanax 0,5mg paar korda kuus, vajadusel

Cymbalta 30mg 2012-25.04.2018 kitsenev 2-3 kuud,rasked sümptomid 1 nädal pärast viimast annust

Amitriptüliin 25mg 25.05.18-20.01.19 ,kitsenev 2-3 kuuga, unetus, paanika-ärevus, segasusseisund, iiveldus

Valdoxan 25mg 10.02.19-10.03.19, ei stabiliseerinud olukorda, Lorasepaam 10.02.19-20.02.19 vajadusel üleöö

Brintellix 5mg 10.03.19-30.06.19 ,ei stabiliseerinud olukorda, hirme, segasust ja unetust, olin haiglas 1 nädal

Olansapiin 5mg 01.03.19-02.08.19,unetuse leevendamiseks suureneb segasus, suureneb depressioon, tekib raske akatiisia Cymbalta 30mg 30.06.19-01.08.19,ei tööta enam, olukord ei stabiliseeru, jälle haiglas 2 nädalat

Levomepromasiin 5mg 03.08.19-20.12.19 aitas magada, kuid suurendas segadust ja depressiooni

Anafraniil 75mg03.08.19-15.12.19  15.12.19 , 35mg  17.05.20  , 27mg 01.01.21 16.07.21 oli päevane A19 mg 01.04.22 11mg 01.11.22 8,6mg, 01.11.23 6,5mg 01.01.24 5mg

 

 

 

                 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Estman,

 

i have been following your progress and just tried to study your signature.  Maybe up-dating it would be helpful?  You could probably condense it a little.  It looks like you stopped a lot of drugs in 2019.  Maybe just write a time span for drugs finished back then.  Just a suggestion.

 

I also noticed that you mentioned clomipramine in your post today but it is not in your signature.  Everything you take interacts with everything else you take.  Imagine it like this...2 people are talking.  One person joins in the conversation and the whole dynamic changes.  As more and more people enter the discussion, one person gets to talk less than earlier.  Then a whole room full of people is present and it is hard to talk to anyone.

 

Every time you add a new drug, a new supplement, and yes, for me, a new food, the metabolism and thus the expression of the other drugs changes.  So the effects (good and bad) can be increased or decreased.  There is a scientific explanation for this but it actually comes down to your brain trying to achieve homeostatis and competition between drugs increases with each new substance added.

 

I have severe, chronic and disabling pain.  I let it go too far.  i wasn't able to taper fast enough and then iatrogenic illness/complication set it.   For more than 15 years, I have used only ice and heat and life adjustments to control the pain.  My body rejects everything else.   I am now so depleted and malnourished I have had to stop tapering completely and try to get my body to accept tiny doses of the nutrients I need.  (ie...I have no choice; I need them to live).  I am talking about tiny doses of vitamin C, B vitamins, calcium as I got almost completely depleted.  I have malabsorption syndrome so just trying to get these nutrients in food isn't enough.  I am forced to supplement and it is extremely hard.  All of these vitamins, even at tiny doses, affect the metabolism of my psych meds.  I am taking baby doses of these vitamins.

 

I imagine that extoricoxib would cause some pretty big swings in your homeostasis. No drug in that class doesn't interact with other drugs.  For me, taking anything that is not absolutely necessary (and I paid a big price for that) allows me to function, though at a very low level.  I have had to accept a lot of pain and a very poor quality of life.  I know you respect Marie and follow her taper closely.  She has been luckier than me, as far as being able to not completely de-rail her taper with other drugs needed, BUT she has been very slow and deliberate about it, and I imagine has put up with her share of pain and dysfunction. 

 

It is a harsh reality, but the best thing you can do for yourself is not put any more pills in your mouth except the pills you are tapering from.  I don't think my post are that helpful to you (because they may seem too discouraging) but I write here to possibly help someone else.

 

Grace

 

 

  • amitriptyline from 1980-2002,
  • intermittent  use of benzos over 2 decades prior to 2002
  • 2002-2010 Klonopin 1-2 mg., ambien 10--20, mg, remeron 4 mg. and  trileptal 300 mg
  • 2011 Stopped ambien and crossed over to valium 17.5 mg. (updosing 2.5 mg. to cover ambien C/T )
  • tapered valium w/ long holds to 12.74 mg. from a high of approximately 20-30 mg/day
  • 2015-2023 tapered trileptal to 98 mg.  had to completely stop tapering due to multiple chronic, serious health issues
  • currently 2024 still on 98 mg. trileptal and 4 mg. remeron
  •   Currently on benzo hold as I have to cross-over from brand-name valium to generic diazepam.   The diazepam is way weaker and brought on severe acute w/d
  • Current dose of diazepam is 7.9 and valium is 6.6.  I had to up-dose the total valium/diazepam from 12.74 to 14.5 where I have stayed since June 2023.  I am crossing over to generic at a somewhat tolerable rate of .3mg/month after about 2 months of trial/error w/ updosing.  I am not currently tapering; will continue to cross over. 

 

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I thought this was posted in Estman's thread,  It looks like it was not.  I will try to get it over there, but If I don't can a moderator post it there?  I do not navigate to peoples' threads well but I try not to hijack others'.

 

Grace

  • amitriptyline from 1980-2002,
  • intermittent  use of benzos over 2 decades prior to 2002
  • 2002-2010 Klonopin 1-2 mg., ambien 10--20, mg, remeron 4 mg. and  trileptal 300 mg
  • 2011 Stopped ambien and crossed over to valium 17.5 mg. (updosing 2.5 mg. to cover ambien C/T )
  • tapered valium w/ long holds to 12.74 mg. from a high of approximately 20-30 mg/day
  • 2015-2023 tapered trileptal to 98 mg.  had to completely stop tapering due to multiple chronic, serious health issues
  • currently 2024 still on 98 mg. trileptal and 4 mg. remeron
  •   Currently on benzo hold as I have to cross-over from brand-name valium to generic diazepam.   The diazepam is way weaker and brought on severe acute w/d
  • Current dose of diazepam is 7.9 and valium is 6.6.  I had to up-dose the total valium/diazepam from 12.74 to 14.5 where I have stayed since June 2023.  I am crossing over to generic at a somewhat tolerable rate of .3mg/month after about 2 months of trial/error w/ updosing.  I am not currently tapering; will continue to cross over. 

 

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20 hours ago, savinggrace said:

Hi Estman,

 

i have been following your progress and just tried to study your signature.  Maybe up-dating it would be helpful?  You could probably condense it a little.  It looks like you stopped a lot of drugs in 2019.  Maybe just write a time span for drugs finished back then.  Just a suggestion.

 

I also noticed that you mentioned clomipramine in your post today but it is not in your signature.  Everything you take interacts with everything else you take.  Imagine it like this...2 people are talking.  One person joins in the conversation and the whole dynamic changes.  As more and more people enter the discussion, one person gets to talk less than earlier.  Then a whole room full of people is present and it is hard to talk to anyone.

 

Every time you add a new drug, a new supplement, and yes, for me, a new food, the metabolism and thus the expression of the other drugs changes.  So the effects (good and bad) can be increased or decreased.  There is a scientific explanation for this but it actually comes down to your brain trying to achieve homeostatis and competition between drugs increases with each new substance added.

 

I have severe, chronic and disabling pain.  I let it go too far.  i wasn't able to taper fast enough and then iatrogenic illness/complication set it.   For more than 15 years, I have used only ice and heat and life adjustments to control the pain.  My body rejects everything else.   I am now so depleted and malnourished I have had to stop tapering completely and try to get my body to accept tiny doses of the nutrients I need.  (ie...I have no choice; I need them to live).  I am talking about tiny doses of vitamin C, B vitamins, calcium as I got almost completely depleted.  I have malabsorption syndrome so just trying to get these nutrients in food isn't enough.  I am forced to supplement and it is extremely hard.  All of these vitamins, even at tiny doses, affect the metabolism of my psych meds.  I am taking baby doses of these vitamins.

 

I imagine that extoricoxib would cause some pretty big swings in your homeostasis. No drug in that class doesn't interact with other drugs.  For me, taking anything that is not absolutely necessary (and I paid a big price for that) allows me to function, though at a very low level.  I have had to accept a lot of pain and a very poor quality of life.  I know you respect Marie and follow her taper closely.  She has been luckier than me, as far as being able to not completely de-rail her taper with other drugs needed, BUT she has been very slow and deliberate about it, and I imagine has put up with her share of pain and dysfunction. 

 

It is a harsh reality, but the best thing you can do for yourself is not put any more pills in your mouth except the pills you are tapering from.  I don't think my post are that helpful to you (because they may seem too discouraging) but I write here to possibly help someone else.

 

Grace

 

 

Hello,
At the moment, I only take clomipramine 6.5 mg daily
I don't take any other medicines, sometimes rarely if I have a very severe wave, then a small piece of Levomepromazine, but very rarely
Clomipramine withdrawal causes very severe symptoms
A lot of agitation and obsessive thoughts are especially bad
A distressing thought comes and you can't change it - it's complete agony
There are also strong compulsive fears of thoughts
But unfortunately, like you, you often have gastroparesis
For some reason I can't digest properly
It could be related to my pyloric valve dysfunction
It seems that there is not enough stomach acid and bile is not produced at the right time
Food is partially undigested or remains in the stomach and intestines for too long.
  It seems that I also have malabsorption, because when I eat something fattier, the stool is very light in color.
Like not enough bile or digestive enzymes
What could cause malabsorption?
I have no gallstones and no blockages
The worst is at night.
If in the evening, usually after a meal, there is a feeling of heaviness but no nausea.
Then at night there is often nausea all the time and an uncomfortable feeling in the stomach
Or there are some bacteria that enter the stomach through an open pyloric valve that shouldn't be there.
I have also lost a lot of weight over the year, I was 100 kg, now 75 kg
In this regard, the back is often very tired because there are not many muscles
Unfortunately, the last two months have also been accompanied by back pain.
In the meantime, it gets better and then I lift a light chair or a box and it immediately flares up again.
There is constant discomfort and soreness in the middle of the back.
It happened at the beginning of September when I lifted only a 20kg part to the floor in a straining position.
It has not recovered since.
If my back is bad again, my digestion immediately worsens and there is more anxiety
I don't know why it has such a connection
Maybe an inflamed spine or something with the back muscles. I haven't lifted anything very heavy - normal stuff
I would like to try this cold-warm treatment. How to do it?
What frustrates me the most is that I don't know where the problem is, whether it's in the muscles or the spinal disc somewhere against a nerve.
Yes, withdrawal from antidepressants causes fibromyalgia, but it seems like a physical mistake.
I have smeared my back with different creams, but they help little - I have not seen a permanent result
Can't relieve the pain when the back hurts a lot

Xanax 0,5mg 1999-2019 a Xanax 0,5mg paar korda kuus, vajadusel

Cymbalta 30mg 2012-25.04.2018 kitsenev 2-3 kuud,rasked sümptomid 1 nädal pärast viimast annust

Amitriptüliin 25mg 25.05.18-20.01.19 ,kitsenev 2-3 kuuga, unetus, paanika-ärevus, segasusseisund, iiveldus

Valdoxan 25mg 10.02.19-10.03.19, ei stabiliseerinud olukorda, Lorasepaam 10.02.19-20.02.19 vajadusel üleöö

Brintellix 5mg 10.03.19-30.06.19 ,ei stabiliseerinud olukorda, hirme, segasust ja unetust, olin haiglas 1 nädal

Olansapiin 5mg 01.03.19-02.08.19,unetuse leevendamiseks suureneb segasus, suureneb depressioon, tekib raske akatiisia Cymbalta 30mg 30.06.19-01.08.19,ei tööta enam, olukord ei stabiliseeru, jälle haiglas 2 nädalat

Levomepromasiin 5mg 03.08.19-20.12.19 aitas magada, kuid suurendas segadust ja depressiooni

Anafraniil 75mg03.08.19-15.12.19  15.12.19 , 35mg  17.05.20  , 27mg 01.01.21 16.07.21 oli päevane A19 mg 01.04.22 11mg 01.11.22 8,6mg, 01.11.23 6,5mg 01.01.24 5mg

 

 

 

                 

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I have a lot of degeneration in my vertebrae and severe osteoarthritis in my whole spine. I also have severe osteoporosis. Also the pain could just be from the drugs. I suspect my malabsorption is from pancreatic insufficiency and/or lack of digestive enzymes but that is a moot point as I cannot tolerate them. 
 

Your signature is very confusing. Are you only on clomipramine now?  A little bit of this and that can make one very unstable. 
 

It’s hard to help (and there are really no definitive answers for you) when your current regimen for drugs and supplements is not up to date. Maybe it is and you stopped everything in 2022? You did make a lot of rapid changes between 2018-2019 that could have caused de-stabilization. 
 

Maybe I have confused you with someone else. I wish you well. I still recommend posting your daily intake of drugs, supplements. Whatever ingredients are in those creams for your back could also be impacting the homeostasis of your drug levels. 
 

I don’t think I know enough about you other than it is usually time (a lot) and staying away from rescue doses of anything that will help heal. 
 

This is just my observation. I have decreased my 3 meds by half since I started about 15 years ago  but general health problems stopped me from more tapering. (Certainly caused by long-term use of psych drugs; I followed doctors’ orders until I realized what was happening. I never took other drugs, never up-dosed or tapered fast (except 20 years ago when I didn’t know better). 
 

if you are only on clomipramine your best chance of making progress is tapering at a rate that doesn’t make you worse and adding nothing else. 
 

I know you want answers. Everyone is so different. 
 

Grace

  • amitriptyline from 1980-2002,
  • intermittent  use of benzos over 2 decades prior to 2002
  • 2002-2010 Klonopin 1-2 mg., ambien 10--20, mg, remeron 4 mg. and  trileptal 300 mg
  • 2011 Stopped ambien and crossed over to valium 17.5 mg. (updosing 2.5 mg. to cover ambien C/T )
  • tapered valium w/ long holds to 12.74 mg. from a high of approximately 20-30 mg/day
  • 2015-2023 tapered trileptal to 98 mg.  had to completely stop tapering due to multiple chronic, serious health issues
  • currently 2024 still on 98 mg. trileptal and 4 mg. remeron
  •   Currently on benzo hold as I have to cross-over from brand-name valium to generic diazepam.   The diazepam is way weaker and brought on severe acute w/d
  • Current dose of diazepam is 7.9 and valium is 6.6.  I had to up-dose the total valium/diazepam from 12.74 to 14.5 where I have stayed since June 2023.  I am crossing over to generic at a somewhat tolerable rate of .3mg/month after about 2 months of trial/error w/ updosing.  I am not currently tapering; will continue to cross over. 

 

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