gloworm: Tapered 10 mg Prozac over 6 months, Dr wants me to reinstate

[baroquep]

Maybe these might help  ...

 

Intrusive thoughts and increased panic

Dealing with Emotional Spirals

Obsessive Thoughts and Compulsive Behaviour

[gloworm]

I am doing horribly tonight .....this is just getting worse and worse.  Went to funeral home this evening and I cant sleep I'm on fire from stress.  Every muscle in my entire body feels like cut glass.  I was reading about limbic kindling .......could I be doing this to myself from the deep trauma , fear and stress I have created ...I literally cant live like this ....I'm going to need medication .....this is NOT getting any better, every month that goes by gets worse and worse.

 

From this article ......it seems that we can stress ourselves out on our own and create kindling .....please someone tell me if I'm WRONG.?????.

 

In  1970,  Gellhorn  suggested  that   under  prolonged  stimulation  of  the  limbic-­ hypothalamic-­pituitary  axis,  a  lowered   threshold  for  activation  could  occur.(2)  Girdano   et  al  in  1990  proposed  that  the  excessive   arousal  could  lead  to  an  increase  in  dendrites   of  the  limbic  system,  which  can  further   increase  limbic  stimulation  and  hypersensitivity   to  stimuli.(3)

Ashok Gupta was the first to propose a similar  theory  as  the  basis  for  CFS/ME  in   2002.(4)  (A  diagram  from  his  paper  is  below).   Based  on  the  work  of  Le  Doux  in  the  ‘90s  (5),   Gupta  suggested  that  an  infectious,  chemical   or  psychological  stressor  could  create  a  “cell   assembly”  within  the  unconscious  amygdala   and  that  these  cell  populations  are  particularly   resistant  to  extinction.  As  with  Goddard  and   Gellhorn,  this  again  implied  that  people  could   become  “hard-­wired”  to  respond  more  easily to stimuli and in turn find it more difficult to suppress the chronic stress or "fight or flight" response  established  by  Selye’s  classic   model  of  stress.(3-­5)

Where  limbic  kindling  takes  our   understanding  of  stress  to  new  levels  is  the   idea  that  this  kindling  leads  to  “hard-­wiring”   in  the  brain  for  an  unhealthy  response   to  stress.  This  was  boosted  by  a  2002   paper  in  the  British  Journal  of  Psychiatry,   where  a  systemic  review  of  brain  images   of  patients  with  PTSD  found  “increased   activation  of  the  amygdala  after  symptom   provocation”.(6)
 

[baroquep]

On 2017-07-14 at 7:49 AM, Shep said:

Gloworm, I would go ahead and do a 1/2 mg Prozac reinstatement. If non-drug coping skills aren't working and you feel like you are spiraling out of control, then it would be worth seeing if a tiny reinstatement helps.

 

If it ramps up symptoms after 4 - 7 days, you simply stop taking it.

 

If it helps, then you hold and stabilize and get some much needed rest. 

 

Let us know what you think. It's painful to read what you are writing, especially when there may be aid in a reinstatement. 

 

 

On 2017-07-10 at 9:18 PM, Altostrata said:

You might try taking 0.5mg Prozac and see what that does. Be very cautious because your body might not react to the Prozac in a way you're used to. A little can go a long way.

 

You'd stabilize on this small amount of Prozac for some months, then taper off by very, very tiny amounts.

 

Please let us know how you're doing.

 

 

On 2017-09-03 at 4:27 PM, baroquep said:

There is no reason to put yourself through unnecessary suffering and I would recommend that you consider reinstating.  Let me know if you have any questions once you've had a chance to take a look at the links below.

 

 

On 2017-10-09 at 7:01 PM, baroquep said:

On 2017-09-06 at 5:47 AM, ChessieCat said:

 

I agree with baroquep.  As long as you try a very tiny dose.

 

 

 

Glowworm, I am so sorry that you are having difficulty deciding whether to reinstate a very small dose to see if it might help alleviate your withdrawal symptoms.  It has been suggested that you attempt to do a reinstatement on numerous occasions since July.  There is not much else we can suggest other than to attempt a reinstatement or try and ride out the symptoms until they start to settle.  Rather than make things worse for yourself by reading about what could potentially go wrong, maybe you should focus instead on what may go right.  Reinstatement is the only known method at this time to help alleviate withdrawal syndrome.  If you visit your doctor at this stage, he is likely to put you on another antidepressant at a high dose or a benzodiazepine which is only going to make things worse.  

At this time, these are the only suggestions we have to offer and you need to decide whether you are going to attempt a reinstatement or whether you want to continue to try and ride out the symptoms.  In either case, I would encourage you to find non-drug techniques to help you manage the symptoms rather than start any new drugs.  

[gloworm]

Do I INCRREASE the .5 ....what do I do ?

[gloworm]

I'm sorry to bother everyone ...I truly am ....I'm frozen with fear....my heart skips beats ......please forgive me for being so needy ....all the benzo groups have frightened me beyond words....they tell me to keep going...I'm too old for this ....I'm 56 not 26

[baroquep]

It's a scary experience, not to worry, you'll get there.  It's good to be cautious especially when dealing with these drugs.  

 

Have you already reinstated the 0.5mg?  If not, you would start at 0.5mg (please don't take anymore than this), follow your symptom pattern for a number of days (it takes four days to reach a steady state in your blood stream and another couple of days to see if it is helping or not) to see whether it's helping or making things worse.  If you have an immediate adverse reaction, stop taking the drug.  You'll want to stay on the same dose consistently everyday and take it at the same time if at all possible.  Please keep careful track of your symptoms over the next little while as we'll need to see how the reinstatement is going. 

I'm reattaching the link on reinstatement and encourage you to become familiar with the process so that you know what to expect and can take the steps to help you through this.

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms
What to Expect in Reinstatement (James Heaney article)   

 

Dr Joseph Glenmullen's WD Symptoms Checklist
Dr Joseph Glenmullen's Withdrawal Symptoms

 

If you have any questions or need clarification on any of the information in the links above, please let us know.  Some people use their introduction topic as a diary of sorts so they can keep track of their symptoms and patterns on a daily basis to help gauge what direction they are heading in.  

[gloworm]

No, I have not reinstated yet ....but if I start at 1/2 of mg do I titrate up ? I looked at oe of those links and of course it scares me ....life scares me ....I just spoke with my GP and she said if I keep doing this I will keep spiraling down.  Of course on the other forums they all say that the doctor with always tell of your original anxiety coming back BUT so far she has been correct, I keep spiraling down .....I am in a ball of fear and cant do any life what so ever.....the stress is more than overwhelming , I burn with adrenaline all the time .....

[gloworm]

I wonder too if any acknowledges that some do have a Panic / anxiety disorder ? I think I'm one of them.  I keep wondering as to why the symptoms creeped in on me just a little and they became for frequent and intense as the year came .  And this makes me wonder if I ever even want to go thru this ever again .....?  I have had monophobia / agoraphobia issues for 30 years, when I was on Prozac this was the first time I my life I felt normal.

 

 

[baroquep]

you may not have to go any higher than 0.5mg so let's cross that bridge when we get there.  It is very possible that you will get relief even from this very tiny dose, so start low and titrate up only if necessary.  If you don't have an adverse reaction (the reason behind starting so low), you will want to stay at 0.5mg for at least a week or longer to see how it is affecting your central nervous system and whether or not it helps.  Patience is key here, you'll want to track your daily symptom pattern to get an idea of what direction you are heading in. 

[baroquep]

Please pay particular attention to the information below which is discussed in more detail at the reinstatement link.

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms
 

Additional reasons to reinstate only a partial dose
Reinstating at a low dose reduces the risk of severe adverse reactions in case reinstatement does not work.

• Experiencing withdrawal may have sensitized you to drugs and a larger dose will cause an adverse reaction.
• These drugs are vastly more powerful than they need to be; often reinstatement at half dosage AT MOST is sufficient and many people do well with a lot less. You want to be taking only the lowest EFFECTIVE dose. 
• Your receptors may have adjusted somewhat (upregulated) during the time you were tapering or had withdrawal symptoms.
• If you can stabilize on a lower dose, you have less to taper when you finally do go off.
• If you had adverse reactions while you were taking the drug, a low dose may not trigger the adverse reactions but still reduce withdrawal symptoms. Adverse reactions tend to be dosage-related: The higher the dose, the worse the reaction.
• You can always adjust the dosage upward if you find you need to.

 

 

 

[gloworm]

May I ask if very DEEP bone pain common WD symptom ? Not muscle ...bone ?

[gloworm]

Can I just please vent  ?  I have been really struggling with re-instating ....I don't even know if this is WD or not.....or me without medication ?  I'm sick, really sick and every week that goes by it just gets worse and my life more limited.   REALLY limited....I can barely talk to anyone as I compare or self loath.  I was put on 10 MG of Prozac from a terrible reaction to a updose of K after 28 years of pretty much the same .5 mg dose once a day.  My entire nervous system feel fried....if I get too emotional I get jerks, feels like a elephant sitting on my chest ALL the time.  I hate drugs, always have....barely take a Tylenol , have done colonoscopies, root canals, 2 breast surgeries with NO medication.  Never ingested a pain pill either.  When I was on the Prozac I felt I could to anything  (within reason) ...but now its beyond horrid as I cant take care of myself....a barely want to eat.  I'm in the deepest pit of despair,  benzo groups tell me not to re-instate as it could make me worse.  Talked to my GP and she said I will just spiral down which seems to be the case.  When I got low on the dose and first quit I had only windows of this, as the time went on it just got worse and worse until this is all I feel.  I try meditation and it does not work at all.  What is this ? My entire body just burns, I am woozy from panic, I can not have any confrontation at all of any kind,,,,good or bad.  Never had heart issues until being off.  When on Prozac I did not care about things like I am now obsessing over every breath I take....it almost felt manic to me....IDK I'm frightened ...I'm scared to live and scared to die so I just stay I this ball.  I cant be alone as my thoughts take off and I panic.  These aren't panic attacks like I knew them, this is a state of mind that is not normal.  I'm losing everything.

[baroquep]

Vent away ... sometimes it helps.  Did a search to find more definitive information on how to differentiate withdrawal from relapse and found this:

• Are these experiences solely experiences that were around before you ever took SSRIs, or do they include new elements as well? → If any new or different elements are present, a withdrawal reaction is very likely.
• If nothing is new, are these experiences expressing exactly as they did before you ever took SSRIs, in terms of their intensity, what provokes them, how long they last, and so forth? → If there are differences, a withdrawal reaction is more probable.
• How soon after a dose reduction or drug discontinuation did new or worsening problems occur? Days, weeks, months, or longer? → “Relapse” usually takes weeks, months, or longer to show up whereas withdrawal symptoms more often begin within just days, weeks, or the first month or so.
• If taken shortly after a previous dose reduction or full discontinuation, does a reinstatement of the previous dose of your SSRI make things any better? → If reinstatement resolves newly appearing or worsening symptoms, they were most likely a withdrawal reaction.

 

[gloworm]

I honestly can not take this any more .....is there a doctor or anyone that could speak to me by phone ? My mind is In a constant state of panic, paranoia , guilt and rage.  I was terrifiedto re-instate as I have been off Klonopin going on 2 years and off 10 mg Prozac exactly 1 year.  I had been on the benzo groups for a while and they ALL scared me out of re-instatement of the Prozac.  I am so agitated and panicked I have NO words for this.....Is there a moderator I could speak to ?  This is really a emergency ...I do not know if this is Prozac WD or Klonopin WD or does it even matter ?? I'm sick really sick.  I was up punching pillows telling my little dog terrible things.  I'm not nice anymore .....agitated to the core, heart racing and fluttering / skipped beats for hours.  Thing is I was on Tamoxifen for breast cancer when I had these same feelings of paranoia and I was not on Prozac then.  PLEASE I need help.....what if a re-instate and get worse ?  I don't want to die but NO ONE can live like this ....Ive been doing this for a year and its not getting better, it just gets worse.   I am stressed with my living arrangements as my dad fell and broke his hip......we are at my sisters.  I cant be alone as I do not trust myself .....I was diagnosed with panic disorder but NEVER felt like this..  I feel EVIL and  am blaming everyone for everything including myself.   It just feels there is no way out of this.  Yes I have a therapist and its not helping AT ALL....cognitive skills aren't helping.  I was Christian and there is nothing left for me. I feel desperate ...I feel like I'm not going to make it .....

[gloworm]

And my psychiatrist told me on the last visit that he had a patient that had anxiety so bad she tried to kill herself ......WHO tells their patient that....honestly I do no know of one person that has anxiety this bad ......its not poor me.....honestly its not .....I'm so sorry .....nothing distracts me, I listen to video, breathing ....this is a horrible mind set of fear / terror / rage . paranoia .

[gloworm]

What if this isn't Prozac WD and its the Klonopin WD ? 

[gloworm]

How do I measure 1/2 of milligram ???

[gloworm]

I have the Liquid Prozac and it has 23% alcohol in it ....I have been off Benzo 23 months and alcohol is a big no no ....WILL IT HURT ??

[bubble]

I don't know about ready made liquids because I make my own but what does it say in the bottle, what's the concentration?

 

How many mg are there in a ml?

 

You are panicking now and I know very well how hard it can be but you should try to calm down. You've been feeling very bad for quite a while but you see you endured it. You will keep making it. As horrible as these symptoms are they can't harm you. The fear they cause is the worst. 

 

I will post my and Shep's best videos for calming and grounding. Try as many things you can until you find something that works for you.

 

Mooji - Unbound Peace

 

Nervousness, Anxiety & Fear ~ Spoken by Mooji

Edited October 17, 2017 by bubble

[gloworm]

I called the pharmacist and he helped me .....I guess I should re-instate .....hard to get a 1/2 MG ...can I start with 1MG ???  ANYONE ???  I'm WAY to agitated / raged 

[bubble]

Try to get half a mg but if you absolutely can't then take 1.

 

You don't have to worry: it either stays the same, gets better or gets worse at which point you just don't continue. It's so small that it can't have lasting consequence and it might help.

 

You can calm yourself. You can do it.

[gloworm]

I listened to that video, and I put meaning into everything ....everything means something ....its feels like some kind of OCD thing ....I need it to quit .....this fear  does hurt me, it has become this habitual thing....my body is inflamed because of it......I have no idea if this is WD or what it is ......I have no idea how this could get worse and I pray to GOD it doesn't because I have been spiraling down for a year with this.   This is what I do not understand ??? Is there a reason for this ?

 

[baroquep]

you CAN do this, you have no idea how remarkably strong you are to have endured this far, you are a lot stronger than you believe you are.  just try and calm down a little before preparing the dose, even if it means watching the video a few more times.  you can do this.  Let us know how things go over the next little while and make sure to keep track of your symptom pattern.

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms
Stabilizing - What Does That Mean?
What to Expect in Reinstatement (James Heaney article)   

 

Dr Joseph Glenmullen's WD Symptoms Checklist
Dr Joseph Glenmullen's Withdrawal Symptoms

[gloworm]

Thank You...I have prayed and prayed for guidance and nothing .....I HOPE I am making the correct decision ....I want my life back...I can not honestly say I wont stay on it forever after this year nightmare .....I just hope there is enough serotonin in my body that it works. I know I need serotonin to make GABBA .....my health is spiraling down from all the stress.  Foods give side effect , even water.  I have talked to Ann Blake Tracy and she said people with high anxiety have to much serotonin .....I just don't believe that .  

[gloworm]

I'm sitting here staring at the Prozac bottle and was reading about re-instatement .  The purpose for me to re-instate it to have some quality of life ....I have ZERO now ......I looked at my old calendar and I was on Prozac since  1/2013 NOT 2014 as I thought.....sorry about that.   I don't know if this is WD or not and if it is from what drug..... I was reading about re-instatement should be with the purpose of weaning off.  I don't know if I want to ....I think I do have clinical depression with rage / panic. 

[ChessieCat]

7 hours ago, gloworm said:

I can not honestly say I wont stay on it forever

 

This is something that you don't need to worry about at the moment.  The main thing at this time is to start your reinstatement and keep notes on paper of what symptoms improve and what worsens.  This will be helpful in assessing whether reinstatement is working.

[Altostrata]

gloworm, have you taken 0.5mg Prozac? Or 1mg? How are you feeling?

 

Please try to stay calm. Also, it sounds like you might need a new doctor. Any doctor can prescribe these drugs, do you have a doctor who doesn't make you nervous?

[gloworm]

No, I never took it.  I tried reaching out to different doctor, nothing is working out for me.

 

I feel horrible beyond any words, I don't know what is wrong with me.  Limbs go numb when my brain tries to relax.....so many things I don't understand.....no one to talk to and it gets worse.  I am burning with rage as I  write this.  4 am I was is  jerking ......I just want it to end....I don't want to die but it is humanly impossible to live like this.  I am so mono phobic its sick....I don't want to wake up....rage or terror .....I am evil .....I don't understand the most simple things....

[gloworm]

ANY doctor makes me nervous ......... the dog scares me .....this is NOT normal ....I'm like a 2 year old .....I wasn't LIKE THIS BEFORE 

[joy2730]

Hi Gloworm, I can't see signatures at present, how low have you got down to and have you made any progress in getting a new doctor.  I know how hard this can be, I am 58 and have just had to reinstate a bit of citalopram, it really does impact on the whole body as well as the mind.

 

I too had dreadful bone ache when reducing dosage.  It was horrible.  I began to feel I would need a hip replacement - my left hip hurt so much, but I have reinstated a little and it is getting better each day now.  I also felt very tired, nauseous, sweaty with  a bad headache all the time, dizzy but not anxious or depressed.

 

Hoping you can decide what to do -  I am now following you which I want to do because I have found it all so hard

 

Joy

[gloworm]

Joy,

I'm not on anything ....off Klonopin 23 months ad off Prozac 1 year.  I don't know if this is Klonopin withdrawal or Prozac WD or both but I cant take one more day.....I cant stand being I my own skin.  I have a GP that wants me back on Prozac.......I have no hope left ....and stare at walls day after day after  day for 1 year now......I lost everything, I cant go out, talk with people .....just 3 safe people or so.

[joy2730]

If you go back on, will you feel you have failed, or will you just be relieved to give it a go?  I think these decisions are so hard to make, you have done well to get off completely, but you obviously need to rethink now.

 

Do you work or have children, do you have to get better soon or can you stick it out longer.  What exactly is your doctor saying?  Sometimes people go back on the same drug and their body and mind reject it and they have to go to a different drug. 

 

Are you OK financially?  All these things need to be taken into account.  Isn't it awful?

 

Joy

[gloworm]

No children, no husband.....live with my 85 year old father who just broke his hip. Staying at my sisters with him....I can not care for me let alone him .  I'm on disability and dont get much ......never had a decent  career.  Doctors tell me to go back on Prozac.   I'm scared to live.....scared to die.....I need to talk to someone that knows these drugs and I can tell my story but there is no one.....I have zero quality of life, cant watch tv as it triggers me and I personalize everything....I just exist and take up space.  I want GOD to take me........

[joy2730]

If you really want to die then you have absolutely nothing to lose be visiting your doctor and following their advice.

 

On this site drugs are not recommended obviously but you must consider carefully as you feel so awful.

 

Even on drugs some people manage to have a life they can enjoy - not perfect but then nothing is perfect anyway.

 

I have been in your shoes twice and both times chose meds and life and I am very glad I did bit it wasn't idea and I wish I could have done it without the meds.

 

My first husband chose to hang himself which he did successfully but it seemed totally wrong.  He should have taken the help available 

[gloworm]

For me this has more to do with Klonopin than anything ....I was on a low dose of .5 mg 1 x day for almost 30 years....I was put on the Prozac as I had a paradoxal reaction from a klonopin up-dose.  I have never been like this before......constant rage and then terror ....one or the other. My doctors never acknowledged the klonopin issue so how can  trust them ???.....I have been on benzo threads for a couple years and they all frightened me out of Prozac re-instatement.   Food bothers me now as I get reactions.....everyone says this will turn and its not....I never get windows......I have NO idea what has happened to me.  I did very well on the Klonopin taper but was on 10 mg Prozac with it but when I tapered off the Prozac all hell broke loose.

 

I e-mailed a friend who is a neuro retired doctor. He said he is not aware that a medication can do permanent damage.  

 

 

I just need to speak with a human being and there is no one.

 

 

Why do you want off if they saved you twice ?  

[joy2730]

Well I felt weight gain was a problem and I also felt I was no longer depressed so didn't need them.  I got from 30 mg to 18 but lower than 18 I find it very hard.  I was curious as well to see if I could give them up but I am also realistic

 

Joy