ShakeyJerr: Say hello

[JanCarol]

Shakey asked me in PM (posted here with permission):

 

 

 

I have been using 166mg of Magnesium Citrate a day. I don't know as I'm getting a benefit, but right now it's my main supplement (I just added theanine).


A friend (of my wife) who went through a major anxiety disorder sent me some info. In it, it mentioned staying away from all citrates because citrates have a paradoxical something called "Ceruloplasmin" (a copper-transporting protein present in the blood; I need to do more research but it appears to be a major factor in raising anxiety if your Ceruloplasmin is disrupted). This friend uses both mag glycinate and mag threonate.


I only want to use one of them to start (and stop the citrate).


Did you take both forms? Which one do you feel helped you best?


Thanks for your input.

 

I replied:

 

 

I don't know about citrate - but I know about copper, ceruloplasmin.

 

Copper = anxiety.  Usually countered by taking zinc.  Copper / zinc is a balance, with zinc being rational, copper being emotional.  High copper is usually what attracts people to cannabis use - to deaden the copper receptors.  It makes my blood boil to see copper ADDED to multi-formulas.  We really don't need it unless we're totally insensitive to the world around us.  Women in particular are sensitive to it - something to do with menstrual and hormonal cycles.

 

Mag citrate gave me the runs.  I couldn't take it.  If you are taking a full dose of it, and don't have the runs, then you are likely mag deficient.

 

I have been taking a combination.  Mag threonate in the afternoon (crosses the blood brain barrier, more stimulating) and mag glycinate (or bisglycinate or diglycinate) at night.  I also take taurine as a cofactor for magnesium absorption.  

 

The threonate is expensive.  I can't see that it really makes a huge difference.  I will be discontinuing it when I run out.  I didn't notice a huge difference from adding it (though I am taking 2/3 the magnesium I was taking then - so maybe I did get positive effect), so we'll see what happens when I take it away.

 

My theanine - I take in teas - green tea, lemon balm, etc.  I do not supplement it.  But I don't have anxiety either.  I caution against using high doses of aminos (or anything, really, besides magnesium and fish oil) to balance withdrawal - it tends to backfire.  I use aminos for my seriously deteriorated health problems due to surgeries (no thyroid or ovaries), which is a different situation to withdrawal and active anxiety.

 

 

I hope this helps!

[ShakeyJerr]

I decided to stop by the vitamin store and pick up some magnesium glycine to try. I will take my first one before I settle down for the night.

 

As for amino backfire... I may have just experienced that with the theanine.

 

I was having a window today that aftually started while I was out doing some stuff that I was sure would trigger high anxiety. I took my daughter to an eye doc appointment in a busy office, and then had to get her to school in time to join her class on a field trip. So right there are two things that would make me tense any day! I was havimg low anxiety while at the office, but the window opened as we left! In fact, I was feeling so good that after the drop off (which included unaccounted for construction and a detour!) that I ran some errands.

 

When I got home, I was syill feeling good and praising God for it. Decided to watch a show that I used to enjoy (The Flash) thinking that I would try to be normal for a change. And then I decided to drink down 100mg of theanine powder mixed in water (which I do twice a day for he past few days). 20 minutes later the window is gone, and I had an anxiety wave set in.

 

So, it could have been the theanine, which has been hit or miss for me anyway. Or it could have been the drama of the show.

 

Either way, I had an hour or so freak out. I am doming down again some. I think the theanine sup is going away and I will be sticking with magnesium.

 

I just wish I was getting more relief from the magnesium. But I will keep my intake low for now. I don't want to trigger a backfire of that too.

 

SJ

[ShakeyJerr]

Okay... this was kind of sucky... I am having a day of rapid wave and window cycling...

 

Anybody ever have that?

 

I literally went from physical symptoms but low anxiety, to mid-anxiety without physical symptoms, to a window, to high anxiety with low physical symptoms, to a window, to mid-level anxiety with no physical symptoms, and now a near window (very low anxiety and only a twinge of tingle-fire-pain in my foot).

 

SJ

[ChessieCat]

You might find this topic helpful:  why-do-we-reach-for-quick-fixes

[AprilShowers]

I've been thinking about that post a lot lately ChessieCat. 

 

ShakeyJerr, have you considered just trying supplements once a day and then just leaving them to work in your body without adding more? The reason I ask is that I know my system rebels against being calmed down too much. 

[ShakeyJerr]

 

I search for the quick fix for relief from the pain - physical and emotional. And I want to take pressure off of my wife and kids. I look for the quick fix because I am weak. I pray to God for strength, but sometimes His answer is that I must go through the pain. So my desire for pain relief and God's desire to grow me come into conflict. Sadly. I hear and feel the pain so acutely that it is drowning out God's words. I know I need to flip the wcript, but the pain is so big.

 

God pleae help me hear you over and through the pain.

[peng]

From ShakeyJerr's history, with my remarks in bold..

 

"...Switched to Effexor (75mg 3/day) [225mg?!!] and Seroquel (50mg 3/day)  [150mg?!!] some time in 2010 (I think). Did a self-taper during 2016 after losing insurance. Been off since around the beginning of 2017.

Developed Discontinuation Syndrome beginning with uncontrolled/unexplained crying in 02/17..."

 

ShakeyJerr, from my own experience of taking/dropping/reinstating/slowly reducing Effexor over the last 15 years, or so, I have to confirm that your extremely distressing symptoms and anguish are IMO due to the, almost certainly, far too rapid self tapering ending at the start of this year.

 

It is your choice entirely, but I would do yourself and your family a huge favour and reinstate, say, Effexor and escape your torture and get on a stable platform to later withdraw slowly and properly at a later date.  Forget about rushing - it will only take you back to some kind of hell.

 

Sincere, best wishes!

[ShakeyJerr]

I have been off now for 4 full months. That's kind of outside the window of reinstating (especially when you figure that it will take several weeks to even get a psych appointment, so it will be closer to 5 months).

 

Plus, I have to admit to some fear about reinstating - mainly, the fear of suicide. Too many tales of people who got just enough meds in them to have the strength to end it all (in fact, it happened in my wife's family). My wife is also very fearful of me going down the med rabbit-hole. I was a horrible person on the meds - but off of the meds I am gentle, helpful, loving, and kind.

 

For more on that, see my post here - http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/14613-why-did-you-stop-the-meds/?p=283193

 

But I do appreciate your advice. Had I done my research before tapering, or had my withdrawal not had such a delayed onset that I had a better chance at reinstatement, it is most likely what I would have done. Now I'm on this road and I feel I just have to manage my symptoms and pray to God for help and healing.

 

SJ

[peng]

OK, SJ, I hear what you say.

 

Best wishes, on any road you take!

[ShakeyJerr]

I'm in a bad way today. Had a couple of short windows on Friday and Saturday (a couple of hours total). But today I am in sheer agony. My back is killing me, but it is the anxiety attack that makes me want to die. I may have overdone it. I had to take my daughter for her eye doctor appointment Friday and then ran some errands. Yesterday I did tons of chores.

 

I also tried some magnesium glycinate, which is supposed to be great for anxiety. But it appears I had a paradoxical reaction to it, which has happened with other natural remedies I have tried. Sometimes the body refuses to calm down, and will fight hard against any attempts to do so. That is how much damage has been done to my chemistry and nervous system. I am back to zero supplements for a while. Might try some lavendar aromatherapy. I ordered some from Amazon.

 

I am in such agony today. Not even going to church and having people pray for me brought any relief. God, please make this stop!

[mammaP]

You could reinstate a very tiny amount. Even just 4 beads from a capsule could help but is so tiny that there should not be the horrific side effects. Yoyu could even start with just one bead. It would actually be better to get instant release tablets so they can be made into a liquid which would be much easier for tapering from that tiny dose.  I think it is worth a shot before too much time passes, there is still a chance it could help. 

[O2bhappy]

ShakeyJerr-

 

I am sorry to hear that you are having a tough day today.  I wanted to let you know that I am praying for you!

 

Hang in there!

[ShakeyJerr]

ShakeyJerr-

 

I am sorry to hear that you are having a tough day today.  I wanted to let you know that I am praying for you!

 

Hang in there!

 

Thanks, O2!

 

Yeah, haven't had one this rough in a while. Hard days, sure - but this was especially chemically imbalanced.

 

I appreciate the prayers! I pray for you too.

 

SJ

[O2bhappy]

ShakeyJerr-

 

Thank you for the prayers.  I greatly appreciate them.

 

Are you feeling any better today or are you still the same as yesterday?

[ShakeyJerr]

ShakeyJerr-

 

Thank you for the prayers.  I greatly appreciate them.

 

Are you feeling any better today or are you still the same as yesterday?

 

I had a rough night. Insomnia wasn't one of my symptoms until a few nights ago. Last night was especially hard. I didn't get the couple of hours of relief before bedtime that I had been enjoying. Then I woke up around 12:45 and could not get back to sleep. Tried a few things, but they didn't work (praying, deep breathing, a mag glycinate {I know, I said I was going to stay away from supplements, but my wife thinks I don;t give them the proper try, that I approach them like they are a magic bullet and get disappointed when I don;t get immediate relief or that I speedily blame them for every new symptom; and she may be right}; I even took some alka seltzer because I had an upset stomach and some body aches)> After a couple hours, I broke down and took a hydroxyzine. I use them very sparingly, and struggled with the decision, but needed to try to get some sleep before work this morning. I did finally fall asleep around 3am, so I got a few hours from it.

 

Anxiety was not as bad this morning as yesterday (which ranks as one of my worst symptom days). I made it to work. Symptoms have dialed down somewhat, but they are still there enough to distract me. And my back is killing me! I have always had a bad back, but I think my lowered pain tolerance and the fact that I am now in a near-constant state of tremors and/or muscle tension have made it really bad.

 

So, I survive but could be better. But then again, couldn't we all?

 

Thanks for checking in. It means a lot to me!

 

SJ

[MollyN]

One day at a time - great job SJ!

[ShakeyJerr]

One day at a time - great job SJ!

 

[O2bhappy]

ShakeyJerr-

 

I understand about insomnia.  It is a rough withdrawal symptom.  You need sleep to heal and recover but that is very hard to do when you have insomnia.  I have had insomnia for well over a year and it is very frustrating.  I am glad that you finally go some sleep/rest.  I have found that if I don't get enough sleep then my w/d symptoms are worse the next day.

 

You sound like me with supplements or anything else I try.  I want it to be the magic pill/answer and if I don't see results after a couple of days I stop. 

 

Glad the anxiety isn't as bad.  I deal with constant anxiety and the tremors/internal shaking makes it worse. 

 

....So, I survive but could be better. But then again, couldn't we all?.. Yes, that is a very true statement.  But just surviving isn't a way to live.  I think that is what all of us on this forum are doing...surviving. 

 

Hang in there.  I hope that you got some sleep last night and are feeling better today. 

[ShakeyJerr]

I did get some sleep last night - and awoke to a lower level of symptoms! Unfortunately, the anxiety did begin to grow after a couple of hours. Got kind of high, then dialed down, then started to grown, then dialed down... It looks like I am rapid cycling. My body chemistry is at war with itself.

 

I keep trying to distract myself. I am at work, so that both hinders and helps. It helps because it affords me distraction, but hinders because when I start to get a symptom ramp up, there's nowhere but the bathroom stall to escape to - and that just is not comfortable! Especially because my always bad back has decided to get really bad (probably because these symptoms always have my body tensed up). I would love to just lay down for a while!

 

SJ

[SkyBlue]

Hi Jerr, 

Saw your post elsewhere on the site and just read through your thread. I admire your faith. How are you doing? 

 

Have you thought about what MammaP said up above, about reinstating?

 

Hang in there. 

[SkyBlue]

Oh -- I see that you said you're about 4 months off and that might be outside the window for reinstating. 

 

Also in answer to a question a few posts up, yes, just today in fact I've had window, wave, window, wave. A new mood every half minute. That's unusual for me -- usually I'm in one mood for like three hours. 

 

Hope you're doing well. 

[ShakeyJerr]

Bad night, triggered by me losing my temper (which has not happened in a long time). My emotions spiraled out of control from there. So instead of getting my evening rest, I got turmoil. Now this morning I can't get control of my tremors, and I am caught in a slf-recrimination loop. Please pray.

[O2bhappy]

ShakeyJerr -

 

I can relate to the anxiety and the emotional spiral.  One moment I can be angry and the next I am crying.  Sometimes I think is it normal to get so angry?  I have noticed over time I do get angry but it isn't as bad as it was.  It is the same with crying.  In the beginning of withdrawal I had uncontrollable crying and it would last all day.  Now I will cry on and off through the day.  There is a positive and negative to working during withdrawal.  It is great that your mind is distracted, but when you are really feeling bad there is no where really to hide. 

 

I have also noticed that when I don't sleep or I am very stressed my tremors get worse.  Do you also have internal shaking?

[ShakeyJerr]

ShakeyJerr -

 

I have also noticed that when I don't sleep or I am very stressed my tremors get worse.  Do you also have internal shaking?

My tremors are what out the "shakey" in "ShakeyJerr!"

 

And they definitely ramp up during stress! Sometimes, when I am stressed and also talking to somebody about difficult things - like withdrawal, for instance, or about something that is specifically stressing me at that moment - I shake so visibly that it gets frightening. So you can imagine how much I have been shaking today after he stress of last night, even when I was apologizing to my wife and daughter for my outburst. I was shaking like an rickety old washing machine on the spin cycle!

 

SJ

[MollyN]

Oh man the w/d rage is so bad - I remember it vividly. I started typing out all sort of analysis - but really I have no answers, for me it was waiting through it, using tapping, reinstating a bit and waiting, oh and at my most desperate I started going to narcotics anonymous and sitting with the other addicts at meetings (don't really recommend that) but when you're at the end of yourself you'll reach out to just about anything you think that will help.

 

At the same time as you give your wife and daughter a huge hug, try and give yourself one too (a real one - long and firm), for the scared little guy who didn't want any of this to happen and would never in a million years have chosen it xxxxmollyn

[ShakeyJerr]

Oh man the w/d rage is so bad - I remember it vividly. I started typing out all sort of analysis - but really I have no answers, for me it was waiting through it, using tapping, reinstating a bit and waiting, oh and at my most desperate I started going to narcotics anonymous and sitting with the other addicts at meetings (don't really recommend that) but when you're at the end of yourself you'll reach out to just about anything you think that will help.

 

At the same time as you give your wife and daughter a huge hug, try and give yourself one too (a real one - long and firm), for the scared little guy who didn't want any of this to happen and would never in a million years have chosen it xxxxmollyn

For me, being on the meds made me a rage-a-holic. Off of them, I am gentle and patient as a lamb. That was what made the incident so bad. My daughter was whining about something, I was trying to wrap up some chores so I could lay down, and I just lashed out and got on a roll, instead of being gentle with her.

 

But the self-recriminations it set off, and the anxiety... That was pure withdrawal talking.

 

Now, if you will excuse me, I am going to go hug myself!

 

SJ

[O2bhappy]

ShakeyJerr -

 

I had those tremors/shaking for probably a year.  When I would hug someone they could feel me shake.  I still get that way when I am very stressed.  The internal shaking still continues. 

 

I agree with MollyN.  You need to give yourself a hug.  I am "trying" to learn self compassion.  Don't be hard on yourself during your moments of anger, and yes I understand it is easier said then done.  I have been there is it is not fun. I would constantly apologize to my family.  They understood it was withdrawal and not me. 

[ShakeyJerr]

it's going from bad to worse here.

 

My 10 year old daughter - who has been sick a lot this year - woke up at 3am with diarrhea and she vomited. So she is missing school yet again. We think it was something she ate.

 

Meanwhile, my wife - who took a very hard job with a steep learning curve that she does not like, but took it to provide for us because I am so messed up and having trouble working full time - is getting called in to meet about her not progressing as fast as they expected. She is getting "re-training" today. But now she has this mark against her, and we fear her job may be in jeopardy.

 

Oh, and my cat of 16 years is sick - probably feline diabetes. She is coming to the end of her life. That is going to land hard on all of us. I have to take her to the vet tonight, and yes, I am having panic thoughts about that.

 

We are all physically, mentally, and spiritually exhausted. This road has been too hard for us.

 

I know God is with us. But we are in dire need of relief. This is a crucible of testing, and the fire is beyond hot. People who read this, if you are the praying sort, please pray for me - for my whole family. I'll admit, my faith is giving way to a lot of questions. But I will press into God even more, and trust in His grace.

 

SJ

[SelmaLady]

it's going from bad to worse here.

 

My 10 year old daughter - who has been sick a lot this year - woke up at 3am with diarrhea and she vomited. So she is missing school yet again. We think it was something she ate.

 

Meanwhile, my wife - who took a very hard job with a steep learning curve that she does not like, but took it to provide for us because I am so messed up and having trouble working full time - is getting called in to meet about her not progressing as fast as they expected. She is getting "re-training" today. But now she has this mark against her, and we fear her job may be in jeopardy.

 

Oh, and my cat of 16 years is sick - probably feline diabetes. She is coming to the end of her life. That is going to land hard on all of us. I have to take her to the vet tonight, and yes, I am having panic thoughts about that.

 

We are all physically, mentally, and spiritually exhausted. This road has been too hard for us.

 

I know God is with us. But we are in dire need of relief. This is a crucible of testing, and the fire is beyond hot. People who read this, if you are the praying sort, please pray for me - for my whole family. I'll admit, my faith is giving way to a lot of questions. But I will press into God even more, and trust in His grace.

 

SJ

 

I will be praying for you and your family.  I surely know what it is to be tested beyond what seems endurable.  I've found that pressing into God is the only way to get through the really dark times.  His strength will keep us. 

[ShakeyJerr]

Thank you so very much, SelmaLady! I will pray for you too specifically (I pray in general for everyone here on SA every day).

 

A friend of mine just wrote this to me. It is very profound and uplifting:

"I always tell the kids I teach to drive that there are two things that will cripple your learning. They are dwelling in success or dwelling in failure. Both will stop you. Whatever happened in the past was placed under the blood of Jesus the moment you repented of it. If God our loving Father does not dwell on it, we cannot either."

 

I need to remember that, to place it in my heart.

 

SJ

[Survivor1]

Hi SJ,

 

Sorry for what you and your family are going through.  I really don't know what to say except that you somehow have to just hang in there, by your fingernails, skin of your teeth, whatever.  It WILL get better but will take time.  My thoughts are with you.

 

All the best.

[MollyN]

Oh honey, it's enough to cope with w/d if the rest of life is calm, balanced and quiet - it feels like it takes everything just to get through the day. But SJ, we don't really have much option do we other than to put one foot in front of the other and step forward. I don't even know what happened to my faith recently, it appears GNA - so can't help you there

 

I remember there being times where I thought surely I will die from the intensity or heartache - but then my body just kept on breathing! So I kept on too (feeling somewhat betrayed - but of course later happy about that!)

 

I love the driving instructor quote - that will be helpful in my day-to-day... and I feel for your wife! If you read my journal you'll see that I recently started a new job and I suck - and it's horrible - I'm trying so hard, but continue to make mistakes and may well lose my job. Arggh...

[ShakeyJerr]

Medium level anxiety day. Some external stressors, but mostly feels like it is cortisol-driven.

 

What do people do to pass the time? Time seems to move so slowly these days, like there are too many waking hours to fill. Most of the activities I used to enjoy when I am alone (which is unfortunately a lot during the days when I am not at work)  - reading, watching TV - actually trigger more anxiety now. And just trying to meditate or rest has given me a weird feeling, like my heart is getting too slow and I am sinking.

 

It's not that I am bored per say, but I need to find something to help pass the time.

 

SJ

[ShakeyJerr]

I believe I just found my biggest trigger - seeing people living "normal" lives. Maybe that's why TV is increasing my anxiety - the commercials show life happening for other people and I fear that I will never have a normal life because of these meds and the withdrawal. I was damned on them, and now I am damned off of them.

 

SJ

[ShakeyJerr]

Suffering. In despair. Symptoms bad. Racing thoughts. All of us under too much pressure here. Pray.

[ShakeyJerr]

Ok. Feeling some relief. I have been praying for myself, my family, and others who are infirm and afflicted. God has used that to calm me significantly. Lord, I pray that this is the healing I need for today. Amen!