Moderator Emeritus tezza Posted February 12, 2012 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted February 12, 2012 Hi Karma, I'm so sorry you're not feeling good. I hope you feel better soon. I feel closer to my sisters and brothers on the forum here than my blood relatives. They don't seem to have time for me or my problems or either they just don't care...Oh well, I'm thankful for you and the others. I really care about the people here. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1644-tezza-risperdal-withdrawal/ Seroquel and Mirtazipine Link to comment
Administrator Karma Posted February 15, 2012 Author Administrator Share Posted February 15, 2012 Hi Karma, I'm so sorry you're not feeling good. I hope you feel better soon. I feel closer to my sisters and brothers on the forum here than my blood relatives. They don't seem to have time for me or my problems or either they just don't care...Oh well, I'm thankful for you and the others. I really care about the people here. Thanks, Tezza - this forum and its members are very important to me ... I actually give thanks for this forum everyday. I've been having a lot of anxiety, some depression, tending toward doom thoughts and some irrational thoughts lately. I'm over a week off of all of the new supplements so I don't understand how they could be causing these problems. I'm 17 days into this Effexor decrement. I think I just threw my system by changing supplements only 4 days into this decrement. I've been putting in way too many hours at work - I've asked for help and I have objective facts that show I'm putting in 106% of my allocation. There are things going on at work that are causing anxiety throughout the company, so maybe I'm just caught up in something natural. Earlier today I was ready to throw in the towel and go back to my previous dose of Effexor - just so anxious I wanted to run away from one of my meetings. But after 2:00 PM I started to feel some relief. I've been sleeping well and I have good energy, which is an improvement over last week. Maybe I just need to give it a little more time to get back to balance and a stable level. Clearly this is not going to go as quickly as I expected or desired. Karma 2007 @ 375 mg Effexor - 11/29/2011 - 43.75 mg Effexor (regular) & .625 mg Xanax 200 mg Gabapentin 2/27/21 - 194.5 mg, 5/28/21 - 183 mg, 8/2/21 - 170 mg, 11/28/21 - 150 mg, 4/19/22 - 122 mg; 8//7/22 - 100 mg; 12/17 - 75mg; 8/17 - 45 mg; 10/16 40 mg Xanax taper: 3/11/12 - 0.9375 mg, 3/25/12 - 0.875 mg, 4/6/12 - 0.8125 mg, 4/18/12 - 0.75 ; 10/16 40mg; 1/16 0.6875 mg; at some point 0.625 mg Effexor taper: 1/29/12 - 40.625 mg, 4/29/12 - 39.875 mg, 5/11/12 - Switched to liquid Effexor, 5/25/12 - 38 mg, 7/6/12 - 35 mg, 8/17/12 - 32 mg, 9/14/12 - 30 mg, 10/19/12 - 28 mg, 11/9/12 - 26 mg, 11/30/12 - 24 mg, 01/14/13 - 22 mg. 02/25/13 - 20.8 mg, 03/18/13 - 19.2 mg, 4/15/13 - 17.6 mg, 8/10/13 - 16.4 mg, 9/7/13 - 15.2 mg, 10/19/13 - 14 mg, 1/15/14 - 13.2 mg, 3/1/2014 - 12.6 mg, 5/4/14 - 12 mg, 8/1/14 - 11.4 mg, 8/29/14 - 10.8 mg; 10/14/14 - 10.2 mg; 12/15/14 - 10 mg, 1/11/15 - 9.5 mg, 2/8/15 - 9 mg, 3/21/15 - 8.5 mg, 5/1/15 - 8 mg, 6/9/15 - 7.5 mg, 7/8/15 - 7 mg, 8/22/15 - 6.5 mg, 10/4/15 - 6 mg; 1/1/16 - 5.6 mg; 2/6/16 - 5.2 mg; 4/9 - 4.8 mg; 7/7 4.5 mg; 10/7 4.25 mg; 11/4 4.0 mg; 11/25 3.8 mg; 4/24 3.6 mg; 5/27 3.4 mg; 7/8 3.2 mg ... 10/18 2.8 mg; 1/18 2.6 mg; 4/7 2.4 mg; 5/26 2.15mg; 8/18 1.85 mg; 10/7 1.7 mg; 12/1 1.45 mg; 3/2 1.2 mg; 5/4 0.90 mg; 6/1 0.80 mg; 6/22 0.65 mg; 08/03 0.50 mg, 08/10 0.45 mg, 10/05 0.325 mg, 11/23 0.2 mg, 12/14 0.15 mg, 12/21 0.125 mg, 02/28 0.03125 mg, 2/15 0.015625 mg, 2/29/20 0.00 mg - OFF Effexor I am not a medical professional - this is not medical advice. My suggestions are based on personal experience, reading, observation and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus tezza Posted February 15, 2012 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted February 15, 2012 Hi Karma, I know how you feel about DC taking longer than expected and I have those thoughts about continuing to take Risperdal. I don't know how you can manage to work, though. That has to be tough. I read somewhere that Effexor was one of the most difficult to DC, if it's worse than Risperdal then my heart bleeds for you. I hope you feel much better really soon. Hang in there, we will get through this. {{{HUGS}}} http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1644-tezza-risperdal-withdrawal/ Seroquel and Mirtazipine Link to comment
Barbarannamated Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Karma, Thank you for letting us know how you're doing, good or not so. You contribute so much to everyone else, it's oddly encouraging to realize that you do so even when you are struggling. (that's a compliment, just in case it doesn't read that way) Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc). Link to comment
alexjuice Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I want to affirm you also, Karma. I've not been having a great week but I've always appreciated checking in with your thoughtful posts and following your progression. Thanks for being a great asset to the community. Your friend, Alex "Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me. Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there Everybody's got to move somewhere Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow Things should start to get interesting right about now." - Zimmerman Link to comment
Administrator Karma Posted February 16, 2012 Author Administrator Share Posted February 16, 2012 Hi Karma, I know how you feel about DC taking longer than expected and I have those thoughts about continuing to take Risperdal. I don't know how you can manage to work, though. That has to be tough. I read somewhere that Effexor was one of the most difficult to DC, if it's worse than Risperdal then my heart bleeds for you. I hope you feel much better really soon. Hang in there, we will get through this. {{{HUGS}}} Thanks for your kind words and support, Tezza. {{{HUGS}}} back at ya. The support we give each other helps us both. Agreed, we will get through this. Karma 2007 @ 375 mg Effexor - 11/29/2011 - 43.75 mg Effexor (regular) & .625 mg Xanax 200 mg Gabapentin 2/27/21 - 194.5 mg, 5/28/21 - 183 mg, 8/2/21 - 170 mg, 11/28/21 - 150 mg, 4/19/22 - 122 mg; 8//7/22 - 100 mg; 12/17 - 75mg; 8/17 - 45 mg; 10/16 40 mg Xanax taper: 3/11/12 - 0.9375 mg, 3/25/12 - 0.875 mg, 4/6/12 - 0.8125 mg, 4/18/12 - 0.75 ; 10/16 40mg; 1/16 0.6875 mg; at some point 0.625 mg Effexor taper: 1/29/12 - 40.625 mg, 4/29/12 - 39.875 mg, 5/11/12 - Switched to liquid Effexor, 5/25/12 - 38 mg, 7/6/12 - 35 mg, 8/17/12 - 32 mg, 9/14/12 - 30 mg, 10/19/12 - 28 mg, 11/9/12 - 26 mg, 11/30/12 - 24 mg, 01/14/13 - 22 mg. 02/25/13 - 20.8 mg, 03/18/13 - 19.2 mg, 4/15/13 - 17.6 mg, 8/10/13 - 16.4 mg, 9/7/13 - 15.2 mg, 10/19/13 - 14 mg, 1/15/14 - 13.2 mg, 3/1/2014 - 12.6 mg, 5/4/14 - 12 mg, 8/1/14 - 11.4 mg, 8/29/14 - 10.8 mg; 10/14/14 - 10.2 mg; 12/15/14 - 10 mg, 1/11/15 - 9.5 mg, 2/8/15 - 9 mg, 3/21/15 - 8.5 mg, 5/1/15 - 8 mg, 6/9/15 - 7.5 mg, 7/8/15 - 7 mg, 8/22/15 - 6.5 mg, 10/4/15 - 6 mg; 1/1/16 - 5.6 mg; 2/6/16 - 5.2 mg; 4/9 - 4.8 mg; 7/7 4.5 mg; 10/7 4.25 mg; 11/4 4.0 mg; 11/25 3.8 mg; 4/24 3.6 mg; 5/27 3.4 mg; 7/8 3.2 mg ... 10/18 2.8 mg; 1/18 2.6 mg; 4/7 2.4 mg; 5/26 2.15mg; 8/18 1.85 mg; 10/7 1.7 mg; 12/1 1.45 mg; 3/2 1.2 mg; 5/4 0.90 mg; 6/1 0.80 mg; 6/22 0.65 mg; 08/03 0.50 mg, 08/10 0.45 mg, 10/05 0.325 mg, 11/23 0.2 mg, 12/14 0.15 mg, 12/21 0.125 mg, 02/28 0.03125 mg, 2/15 0.015625 mg, 2/29/20 0.00 mg - OFF Effexor I am not a medical professional - this is not medical advice. My suggestions are based on personal experience, reading, observation and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers Link to comment
Administrator Karma Posted February 16, 2012 Author Administrator Share Posted February 16, 2012 Karma, Thank you for letting us know how you're doing, good or not so. You contribute so much to everyone else, it's oddly encouraging to realize that you do so even when you are struggling. (that's a compliment, just in case it doesn't read that way) Thanks for the compliment, Barb . Even when I'm challenged by anxiety and other withdrawal symptoms I still believe I have it better than many on this forum ... (and outside of this forum who haven't found us yet). I am just so unpleasantly surprised by these symptoms since re-starting my taper ... today was better ... I actually laughed out loud this afternoon about something and that is usually a good sign. It was just really unexpected. Karma 2007 @ 375 mg Effexor - 11/29/2011 - 43.75 mg Effexor (regular) & .625 mg Xanax 200 mg Gabapentin 2/27/21 - 194.5 mg, 5/28/21 - 183 mg, 8/2/21 - 170 mg, 11/28/21 - 150 mg, 4/19/22 - 122 mg; 8//7/22 - 100 mg; 12/17 - 75mg; 8/17 - 45 mg; 10/16 40 mg Xanax taper: 3/11/12 - 0.9375 mg, 3/25/12 - 0.875 mg, 4/6/12 - 0.8125 mg, 4/18/12 - 0.75 ; 10/16 40mg; 1/16 0.6875 mg; at some point 0.625 mg Effexor taper: 1/29/12 - 40.625 mg, 4/29/12 - 39.875 mg, 5/11/12 - Switched to liquid Effexor, 5/25/12 - 38 mg, 7/6/12 - 35 mg, 8/17/12 - 32 mg, 9/14/12 - 30 mg, 10/19/12 - 28 mg, 11/9/12 - 26 mg, 11/30/12 - 24 mg, 01/14/13 - 22 mg. 02/25/13 - 20.8 mg, 03/18/13 - 19.2 mg, 4/15/13 - 17.6 mg, 8/10/13 - 16.4 mg, 9/7/13 - 15.2 mg, 10/19/13 - 14 mg, 1/15/14 - 13.2 mg, 3/1/2014 - 12.6 mg, 5/4/14 - 12 mg, 8/1/14 - 11.4 mg, 8/29/14 - 10.8 mg; 10/14/14 - 10.2 mg; 12/15/14 - 10 mg, 1/11/15 - 9.5 mg, 2/8/15 - 9 mg, 3/21/15 - 8.5 mg, 5/1/15 - 8 mg, 6/9/15 - 7.5 mg, 7/8/15 - 7 mg, 8/22/15 - 6.5 mg, 10/4/15 - 6 mg; 1/1/16 - 5.6 mg; 2/6/16 - 5.2 mg; 4/9 - 4.8 mg; 7/7 4.5 mg; 10/7 4.25 mg; 11/4 4.0 mg; 11/25 3.8 mg; 4/24 3.6 mg; 5/27 3.4 mg; 7/8 3.2 mg ... 10/18 2.8 mg; 1/18 2.6 mg; 4/7 2.4 mg; 5/26 2.15mg; 8/18 1.85 mg; 10/7 1.7 mg; 12/1 1.45 mg; 3/2 1.2 mg; 5/4 0.90 mg; 6/1 0.80 mg; 6/22 0.65 mg; 08/03 0.50 mg, 08/10 0.45 mg, 10/05 0.325 mg, 11/23 0.2 mg, 12/14 0.15 mg, 12/21 0.125 mg, 02/28 0.03125 mg, 2/15 0.015625 mg, 2/29/20 0.00 mg - OFF Effexor I am not a medical professional - this is not medical advice. My suggestions are based on personal experience, reading, observation and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers Link to comment
Administrator Karma Posted February 16, 2012 Author Administrator Share Posted February 16, 2012 I want to affirm you also, Karma. I've not been having a great week but I've always appreciated checking in with your thoughtful posts and following your progression. Thanks for being a great asset to the community. Your friend, Alex Ahh, thanks, Alex. Thanks so much for your kind words and your support. I know you've been having some challenging times lately and I'm sending you positive energy - as Tezza said, hang in there, we'll make it through this. {{{HUGS}}} Karma 2007 @ 375 mg Effexor - 11/29/2011 - 43.75 mg Effexor (regular) & .625 mg Xanax 200 mg Gabapentin 2/27/21 - 194.5 mg, 5/28/21 - 183 mg, 8/2/21 - 170 mg, 11/28/21 - 150 mg, 4/19/22 - 122 mg; 8//7/22 - 100 mg; 12/17 - 75mg; 8/17 - 45 mg; 10/16 40 mg Xanax taper: 3/11/12 - 0.9375 mg, 3/25/12 - 0.875 mg, 4/6/12 - 0.8125 mg, 4/18/12 - 0.75 ; 10/16 40mg; 1/16 0.6875 mg; at some point 0.625 mg Effexor taper: 1/29/12 - 40.625 mg, 4/29/12 - 39.875 mg, 5/11/12 - Switched to liquid Effexor, 5/25/12 - 38 mg, 7/6/12 - 35 mg, 8/17/12 - 32 mg, 9/14/12 - 30 mg, 10/19/12 - 28 mg, 11/9/12 - 26 mg, 11/30/12 - 24 mg, 01/14/13 - 22 mg. 02/25/13 - 20.8 mg, 03/18/13 - 19.2 mg, 4/15/13 - 17.6 mg, 8/10/13 - 16.4 mg, 9/7/13 - 15.2 mg, 10/19/13 - 14 mg, 1/15/14 - 13.2 mg, 3/1/2014 - 12.6 mg, 5/4/14 - 12 mg, 8/1/14 - 11.4 mg, 8/29/14 - 10.8 mg; 10/14/14 - 10.2 mg; 12/15/14 - 10 mg, 1/11/15 - 9.5 mg, 2/8/15 - 9 mg, 3/21/15 - 8.5 mg, 5/1/15 - 8 mg, 6/9/15 - 7.5 mg, 7/8/15 - 7 mg, 8/22/15 - 6.5 mg, 10/4/15 - 6 mg; 1/1/16 - 5.6 mg; 2/6/16 - 5.2 mg; 4/9 - 4.8 mg; 7/7 4.5 mg; 10/7 4.25 mg; 11/4 4.0 mg; 11/25 3.8 mg; 4/24 3.6 mg; 5/27 3.4 mg; 7/8 3.2 mg ... 10/18 2.8 mg; 1/18 2.6 mg; 4/7 2.4 mg; 5/26 2.15mg; 8/18 1.85 mg; 10/7 1.7 mg; 12/1 1.45 mg; 3/2 1.2 mg; 5/4 0.90 mg; 6/1 0.80 mg; 6/22 0.65 mg; 08/03 0.50 mg, 08/10 0.45 mg, 10/05 0.325 mg, 11/23 0.2 mg, 12/14 0.15 mg, 12/21 0.125 mg, 02/28 0.03125 mg, 2/15 0.015625 mg, 2/29/20 0.00 mg - OFF Effexor I am not a medical professional - this is not medical advice. My suggestions are based on personal experience, reading, observation and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted February 16, 2012 Administrator Share Posted February 16, 2012 The lovefest here warms my cockles! Thanks to all of you for making this community what it is. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
Administrator Karma Posted February 20, 2012 Author Administrator Share Posted February 20, 2012 I'm doing better. The abnormal anxiety has passed. I still have slight melancholia in the mornings, but it passes. I also have moments of feeling I can't enjoy the wonderful things in my life, but they also pass. I'm wondering if anyone thinks it is a good idea to hold my Effexor dose for a couple of weeks and then try to reduce my Xanax by a bit? (Rhi - any thoughts?) Remember, I only take Xanax at night and I don't seem to have any break-through withdrawal symptoms during the day. I'm thinking that maybe I could start a reduction of Xanax at 0.0625 mg (a quarter of a .25 mg dose of Xanax). I currently take 1 mg every night. I was thinking I could reduce by 0.0625 mg every two weeks or so according to symptoms to get down to .75 mg - if all goes well, maybe get down to 0.5 mg then hold for awhile and go back to my Effexor wean. Effexor and Xanax do use a common pathway through the liver, so I'm wondering if I need to balance out the reductions. A positive piece of news - I got a note from my manager today that we have the approval to hire someone to help me Yay! That will mean I can reduce my hours to something more sustainable and potentially get more done by having the other person take on the necessary, but less value-add work. I'm so excited that we can move forward with a plan - the resolution isn't in place, but this is more promising than I've seen in the last six months. Here's to a great week ahead - cuz I plan to make it a great week. Love y'all - Love and light, Karma 2007 @ 375 mg Effexor - 11/29/2011 - 43.75 mg Effexor (regular) & .625 mg Xanax 200 mg Gabapentin 2/27/21 - 194.5 mg, 5/28/21 - 183 mg, 8/2/21 - 170 mg, 11/28/21 - 150 mg, 4/19/22 - 122 mg; 8//7/22 - 100 mg; 12/17 - 75mg; 8/17 - 45 mg; 10/16 40 mg Xanax taper: 3/11/12 - 0.9375 mg, 3/25/12 - 0.875 mg, 4/6/12 - 0.8125 mg, 4/18/12 - 0.75 ; 10/16 40mg; 1/16 0.6875 mg; at some point 0.625 mg Effexor taper: 1/29/12 - 40.625 mg, 4/29/12 - 39.875 mg, 5/11/12 - Switched to liquid Effexor, 5/25/12 - 38 mg, 7/6/12 - 35 mg, 8/17/12 - 32 mg, 9/14/12 - 30 mg, 10/19/12 - 28 mg, 11/9/12 - 26 mg, 11/30/12 - 24 mg, 01/14/13 - 22 mg. 02/25/13 - 20.8 mg, 03/18/13 - 19.2 mg, 4/15/13 - 17.6 mg, 8/10/13 - 16.4 mg, 9/7/13 - 15.2 mg, 10/19/13 - 14 mg, 1/15/14 - 13.2 mg, 3/1/2014 - 12.6 mg, 5/4/14 - 12 mg, 8/1/14 - 11.4 mg, 8/29/14 - 10.8 mg; 10/14/14 - 10.2 mg; 12/15/14 - 10 mg, 1/11/15 - 9.5 mg, 2/8/15 - 9 mg, 3/21/15 - 8.5 mg, 5/1/15 - 8 mg, 6/9/15 - 7.5 mg, 7/8/15 - 7 mg, 8/22/15 - 6.5 mg, 10/4/15 - 6 mg; 1/1/16 - 5.6 mg; 2/6/16 - 5.2 mg; 4/9 - 4.8 mg; 7/7 4.5 mg; 10/7 4.25 mg; 11/4 4.0 mg; 11/25 3.8 mg; 4/24 3.6 mg; 5/27 3.4 mg; 7/8 3.2 mg ... 10/18 2.8 mg; 1/18 2.6 mg; 4/7 2.4 mg; 5/26 2.15mg; 8/18 1.85 mg; 10/7 1.7 mg; 12/1 1.45 mg; 3/2 1.2 mg; 5/4 0.90 mg; 6/1 0.80 mg; 6/22 0.65 mg; 08/03 0.50 mg, 08/10 0.45 mg, 10/05 0.325 mg, 11/23 0.2 mg, 12/14 0.15 mg, 12/21 0.125 mg, 02/28 0.03125 mg, 2/15 0.015625 mg, 2/29/20 0.00 mg - OFF Effexor I am not a medical professional - this is not medical advice. My suggestions are based on personal experience, reading, observation and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted February 20, 2012 Administrator Share Posted February 20, 2012 Good for you for working out the job issues, Karma. I'm not a benzo withdrawal expert, but holding at your current Effexor dose, stabilizing, and then reducing Xanax a tad makes sense to me. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
Administrator Karma Posted March 1, 2012 Author Administrator Share Posted March 1, 2012 Well, I just don't know what to do. I had been feeling better - I was actually joyful last Friday, but I haven't felt that great this week. It has been 32 days since I decremented my Effexor dose. I thought I would feel joyful again by now, but not so much. Thinking about going back up to 43.75 mg ... I don't know. I am clearly experiencing stress. Last night I got some not great news ... I have progressed from osteopenia to osteoporosis in two years even though I was keeping my vitamin D up, taking hormone replacement therapy, and supplementing with a high quality calcium supplement - I don't smoke and I don't drink any alcohol. My sodium is generally low in-range and I don't eat processed foods so I don't think excess sodium is a problem. The only thing I didn't do was a good amount of weight-bearing exercise. I do walk about 6000 steps a day now, but I wasn't able to do that for the full two years. It just seems like I shouldn't have gone this far this quickly. This diagnosis really threw me. It had me so upset that I was shaking this morning. I'm having difficulty focusing on my work, too. This just really blows me away. I fear that they will try to force me to take bisphosphonates. My sister-in-law took Boniva for five years and ended up with cracks in her sacrum! I called the bone specialist's office to schedule an appointment this morning, but had to leave a message and no one called me back . So this is the doc who I refused to take a total body bone scan for. I may have to do the bone scan now . I just hate having one more thing to research and manage. Docs in every field are programmed to diagnose and hand you a pill. I don't always agree with just taking whatever pill they hand you. No idea how this gets resolved. Karma 2007 @ 375 mg Effexor - 11/29/2011 - 43.75 mg Effexor (regular) & .625 mg Xanax 200 mg Gabapentin 2/27/21 - 194.5 mg, 5/28/21 - 183 mg, 8/2/21 - 170 mg, 11/28/21 - 150 mg, 4/19/22 - 122 mg; 8//7/22 - 100 mg; 12/17 - 75mg; 8/17 - 45 mg; 10/16 40 mg Xanax taper: 3/11/12 - 0.9375 mg, 3/25/12 - 0.875 mg, 4/6/12 - 0.8125 mg, 4/18/12 - 0.75 ; 10/16 40mg; 1/16 0.6875 mg; at some point 0.625 mg Effexor taper: 1/29/12 - 40.625 mg, 4/29/12 - 39.875 mg, 5/11/12 - Switched to liquid Effexor, 5/25/12 - 38 mg, 7/6/12 - 35 mg, 8/17/12 - 32 mg, 9/14/12 - 30 mg, 10/19/12 - 28 mg, 11/9/12 - 26 mg, 11/30/12 - 24 mg, 01/14/13 - 22 mg. 02/25/13 - 20.8 mg, 03/18/13 - 19.2 mg, 4/15/13 - 17.6 mg, 8/10/13 - 16.4 mg, 9/7/13 - 15.2 mg, 10/19/13 - 14 mg, 1/15/14 - 13.2 mg, 3/1/2014 - 12.6 mg, 5/4/14 - 12 mg, 8/1/14 - 11.4 mg, 8/29/14 - 10.8 mg; 10/14/14 - 10.2 mg; 12/15/14 - 10 mg, 1/11/15 - 9.5 mg, 2/8/15 - 9 mg, 3/21/15 - 8.5 mg, 5/1/15 - 8 mg, 6/9/15 - 7.5 mg, 7/8/15 - 7 mg, 8/22/15 - 6.5 mg, 10/4/15 - 6 mg; 1/1/16 - 5.6 mg; 2/6/16 - 5.2 mg; 4/9 - 4.8 mg; 7/7 4.5 mg; 10/7 4.25 mg; 11/4 4.0 mg; 11/25 3.8 mg; 4/24 3.6 mg; 5/27 3.4 mg; 7/8 3.2 mg ... 10/18 2.8 mg; 1/18 2.6 mg; 4/7 2.4 mg; 5/26 2.15mg; 8/18 1.85 mg; 10/7 1.7 mg; 12/1 1.45 mg; 3/2 1.2 mg; 5/4 0.90 mg; 6/1 0.80 mg; 6/22 0.65 mg; 08/03 0.50 mg, 08/10 0.45 mg, 10/05 0.325 mg, 11/23 0.2 mg, 12/14 0.15 mg, 12/21 0.125 mg, 02/28 0.03125 mg, 2/15 0.015625 mg, 2/29/20 0.00 mg - OFF Effexor I am not a medical professional - this is not medical advice. My suggestions are based on personal experience, reading, observation and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers Link to comment
Administrator Karma Posted March 1, 2012 Author Administrator Share Posted March 1, 2012 I got the appointment with the bone specialist and it is only a month away. I have some sense of relief knowing that I have a plan. I am able to focus better and feel a lift in my mood ... maybe I just hold at 40.125 mg Effexor??? With all of the elevated serum calcium over the last two years, the elevated ACE, elevate bone specific alkaline phosphatase I just have to believe there is something else going on with my bones beyond the normal bone thinning that occurs as we age. I think that I have a complex case so it is important to have a good doctor to work with. This doctor is supposed to be one of the best. This bone specialist is pretty sharp. When I met with him before all of my other doctors were saying that thyroid replacement treatment would cause bone loss and he said that isn't proven. When we talked about the metabolism in the cell he admitted that we don't have test to identify what is actually going on at the cellular level (i.e. the TSH does not tell us about cellular metabolism). He recognized my condition as Schmidt Syndrome (treating adrenals and thyroid) and had no problem with my treatment plan. What I liked best about him when I saw him before is that he originally said I was not a candidate for bisphosphonates. I was pleased that he wasn't a pill pusher, but given the decline in my condition we may have to consider all of the possibilities. Sometimes I feel so trapped ... I think I need to get off of Effexor and Xanax before I come off of my adrenal treatment. I have to come off of the adrenal treatment in order to really get active with weight-bearing exercise ... I seem stuck at my dose of Effexor and Xanax so I don't feel like I'm making any progress. But then I need to realize that everything I think I know could be wrong . Thanks for letting me share ... it really helps. Love and Light, Karma 2007 @ 375 mg Effexor - 11/29/2011 - 43.75 mg Effexor (regular) & .625 mg Xanax 200 mg Gabapentin 2/27/21 - 194.5 mg, 5/28/21 - 183 mg, 8/2/21 - 170 mg, 11/28/21 - 150 mg, 4/19/22 - 122 mg; 8//7/22 - 100 mg; 12/17 - 75mg; 8/17 - 45 mg; 10/16 40 mg Xanax taper: 3/11/12 - 0.9375 mg, 3/25/12 - 0.875 mg, 4/6/12 - 0.8125 mg, 4/18/12 - 0.75 ; 10/16 40mg; 1/16 0.6875 mg; at some point 0.625 mg Effexor taper: 1/29/12 - 40.625 mg, 4/29/12 - 39.875 mg, 5/11/12 - Switched to liquid Effexor, 5/25/12 - 38 mg, 7/6/12 - 35 mg, 8/17/12 - 32 mg, 9/14/12 - 30 mg, 10/19/12 - 28 mg, 11/9/12 - 26 mg, 11/30/12 - 24 mg, 01/14/13 - 22 mg. 02/25/13 - 20.8 mg, 03/18/13 - 19.2 mg, 4/15/13 - 17.6 mg, 8/10/13 - 16.4 mg, 9/7/13 - 15.2 mg, 10/19/13 - 14 mg, 1/15/14 - 13.2 mg, 3/1/2014 - 12.6 mg, 5/4/14 - 12 mg, 8/1/14 - 11.4 mg, 8/29/14 - 10.8 mg; 10/14/14 - 10.2 mg; 12/15/14 - 10 mg, 1/11/15 - 9.5 mg, 2/8/15 - 9 mg, 3/21/15 - 8.5 mg, 5/1/15 - 8 mg, 6/9/15 - 7.5 mg, 7/8/15 - 7 mg, 8/22/15 - 6.5 mg, 10/4/15 - 6 mg; 1/1/16 - 5.6 mg; 2/6/16 - 5.2 mg; 4/9 - 4.8 mg; 7/7 4.5 mg; 10/7 4.25 mg; 11/4 4.0 mg; 11/25 3.8 mg; 4/24 3.6 mg; 5/27 3.4 mg; 7/8 3.2 mg ... 10/18 2.8 mg; 1/18 2.6 mg; 4/7 2.4 mg; 5/26 2.15mg; 8/18 1.85 mg; 10/7 1.7 mg; 12/1 1.45 mg; 3/2 1.2 mg; 5/4 0.90 mg; 6/1 0.80 mg; 6/22 0.65 mg; 08/03 0.50 mg, 08/10 0.45 mg, 10/05 0.325 mg, 11/23 0.2 mg, 12/14 0.15 mg, 12/21 0.125 mg, 02/28 0.03125 mg, 2/15 0.015625 mg, 2/29/20 0.00 mg - OFF Effexor I am not a medical professional - this is not medical advice. My suggestions are based on personal experience, reading, observation and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted March 1, 2012 Administrator Share Posted March 1, 2012 A doctor who knows what he's doing -- worth his weight in gold. Yes, it's hard to evaluate all the variables -- sending warm thoughts your way, Karma. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
Barbarannamated Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Karma, You know FAR MORE than any doctor I've encountered. Your knowledge of endocrine/immune system is amazing! I'm very glad that youve found a doctor you trust with your complex clinical picture. Has he expressed an opinion on the link between SSRIs and osteoporosis? It *seems* that the potential causes of any disease/disorder should be taken into account in determining the best treatment approach. I realize causation is extremely hard to determine. I haven't researched osteoporosis treatments yet, however, I would consider maximizing ERT and known risks before using a newer osteo drug that is associated with increased risk of fractures - the very outcome it is supposed to prevent. Not to mention other dangers including hallucinations, particularly frightening given our history with psychiatry. Trust your knowledge and instincts, Karma. Your ability to integrate research and info from different schools of thought puts you far ahead of any one specialist who approaches cases from the only perspective or paradigm known. You are your own interdisciplinary team. :-) Wondering if feeling trapped is inherent in seeing things from different perspectives (pros and cons)-- a step in the process of assimilating divergent info. Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc). Link to comment
Administrator Karma Posted March 3, 2012 Author Administrator Share Posted March 3, 2012 You are right, Alto about a good doctor, but I have to say that I am still guarded about the bone doctor. While he has been reasonable so far, I'm prepared for him to fall back to the osteoporosis drug position. Right now my position is that we need to look for other things causing the drastic bone loss (19% bone loss at the hip and 10% in the spine). I prefer to aggressively pursue natural methods of bone loss reversal. Thanks for the vote of confidence Barb . But I'm sure that all doctors have more knowledge than I do. I just know a lot about the things that have impacted my health. I'm either a refreshingly educated patient or a real pain in the ... I found a web site that has recommendations for natural reversal of bone loss ... one of the things they point to is that an imbalance in magnesium and calcium can prevent calcium from being absorbed by bone. I'm ordering a RBC (red blood cell) magnesium test in addition to the tests the bone doc is asking for. Even though I supplement 800 mg magnesium glycinate daily it still might not be creating a good level of magnesium at the cellular level ... if that is the case that alone could make a difference in bone density. It is a fallacy that just taking more calcium can reverse bone loss - the truth is that you need a good ratio of magnesium to calcium and the western diet does not support that. http://www.health-reports.com/magnesium.html If my cellular magnesium is low I'm going to try this product http://www.ancient-minerals.com/products/magnesium-application-use/. It is possible that with having celiac disease that my magnesium is so depleted that I cannot take enough magnesium orally - my natural thyroid group has reported good results with this topical form of magnesium. Barb, thanks for bringing up the connection between antidepressants and osteoporosis - I found this article http://psychcentral.com/news/2007/06/26/common-antidepressants-risk-osteoporosis/918.html and will be doing more research and asking the doc about it. Just one more reason to continue weaning off of Effexor. The bone doc is evaluating serum calcium, alkaline phosphatase-bone specific, intact PTH (parathyroid hormone), complete vitamin D and a couple of other things. Previously he was thinking Paget's bone disease ... I've been thinking hyperparathyroidism, but my labs didn't support it before. Here is information on parathyroid http://parathyroid.com/parathyroid-disease.htm. I'm feeling ok - not great emotionally. I wake up with a mild sense of dread, but it usually passes. Once I get engaged in "life" I generally feel better. I guess I won't be continuing to wean anything in the near future. Based on the results of next week's blood tests I may start the topical magnesium, but I won't begin my xanax taper until after I've gotten some solid direction with my bones. Karma 2007 @ 375 mg Effexor - 11/29/2011 - 43.75 mg Effexor (regular) & .625 mg Xanax 200 mg Gabapentin 2/27/21 - 194.5 mg, 5/28/21 - 183 mg, 8/2/21 - 170 mg, 11/28/21 - 150 mg, 4/19/22 - 122 mg; 8//7/22 - 100 mg; 12/17 - 75mg; 8/17 - 45 mg; 10/16 40 mg Xanax taper: 3/11/12 - 0.9375 mg, 3/25/12 - 0.875 mg, 4/6/12 - 0.8125 mg, 4/18/12 - 0.75 ; 10/16 40mg; 1/16 0.6875 mg; at some point 0.625 mg Effexor taper: 1/29/12 - 40.625 mg, 4/29/12 - 39.875 mg, 5/11/12 - Switched to liquid Effexor, 5/25/12 - 38 mg, 7/6/12 - 35 mg, 8/17/12 - 32 mg, 9/14/12 - 30 mg, 10/19/12 - 28 mg, 11/9/12 - 26 mg, 11/30/12 - 24 mg, 01/14/13 - 22 mg. 02/25/13 - 20.8 mg, 03/18/13 - 19.2 mg, 4/15/13 - 17.6 mg, 8/10/13 - 16.4 mg, 9/7/13 - 15.2 mg, 10/19/13 - 14 mg, 1/15/14 - 13.2 mg, 3/1/2014 - 12.6 mg, 5/4/14 - 12 mg, 8/1/14 - 11.4 mg, 8/29/14 - 10.8 mg; 10/14/14 - 10.2 mg; 12/15/14 - 10 mg, 1/11/15 - 9.5 mg, 2/8/15 - 9 mg, 3/21/15 - 8.5 mg, 5/1/15 - 8 mg, 6/9/15 - 7.5 mg, 7/8/15 - 7 mg, 8/22/15 - 6.5 mg, 10/4/15 - 6 mg; 1/1/16 - 5.6 mg; 2/6/16 - 5.2 mg; 4/9 - 4.8 mg; 7/7 4.5 mg; 10/7 4.25 mg; 11/4 4.0 mg; 11/25 3.8 mg; 4/24 3.6 mg; 5/27 3.4 mg; 7/8 3.2 mg ... 10/18 2.8 mg; 1/18 2.6 mg; 4/7 2.4 mg; 5/26 2.15mg; 8/18 1.85 mg; 10/7 1.7 mg; 12/1 1.45 mg; 3/2 1.2 mg; 5/4 0.90 mg; 6/1 0.80 mg; 6/22 0.65 mg; 08/03 0.50 mg, 08/10 0.45 mg, 10/05 0.325 mg, 11/23 0.2 mg, 12/14 0.15 mg, 12/21 0.125 mg, 02/28 0.03125 mg, 2/15 0.015625 mg, 2/29/20 0.00 mg - OFF Effexor I am not a medical professional - this is not medical advice. My suggestions are based on personal experience, reading, observation and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers Link to comment
Barbarannamated Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Thanks for the vote of confidence Barb . But I'm sure that all doctors have more knowledge than I do. I just know a lot about the things that have impacted my health. I'm either a refreshingly educated patient or a real pain in the ... Barb, thanks for bringing up the connection between antidepressants and osteoporosis - I found this article http://psychcentral.com/news/2007/06/26/common-antidepressants-risk-osteoporosis/918.html and will be doing more research and asking the doc about it. Just one more reason to continue weaning off of Effexor. The bone doc is evaluating serum calcium, alkaline phosphatase-bone specific, intact PTH (parathyroid hormone), complete vitamin D and a couple of other things. Previously he was thinking Paget's bone disease ... I've been thinking hyperparathyroidism, but my labs didn't support it before. Here is information on parathyroid http://parathyroid.com/parathyroid-disease.htm. Karma Or...Refreshingly educated PIA Thanks for a good chuckle, Karma! Ok, I have to ask...what is a bone doctor? Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc). Link to comment
Barbarannamated Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Reading that you've had moments of JOY is powerfully encouraging. The concept seems foreign from my current vantage point. Thank you for reminding me that the possibilty exists. You are a very very special person....considering that PIA component Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc). Link to comment
Barbarannamated Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Karma, I haven't dissected this study yet, but wanted to share. It's interesting to see a study looking at Bone Mineral Density in MEN taking SSRIs. Association of Low Bone Mineral Density With Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor Use by Older Men Haney, E, et al (Oregon Health & Sciences Univ) Archives of Internal Medicine 2007; 167(12):1246-1251 Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc). Link to comment
Administrator Karma Posted March 3, 2012 Author Administrator Share Posted March 3, 2012 Or...Refreshingly educated PIA Thanks for a good chuckle, Karma! Ok, I have to ask...what is a bone doctor? The bone doctor began to see a correlation between issues with the kidneys and bone ... he has a bone research center. He now specializes in disorders of the bone - he is considered a leading authority on bone biology, prevention and treatment of metabolic bone disorders, including osteoporosis and Paget's bone disease. Unfortunately it appears he does a lot of clinical studies for big pharma and of course, their propaganda is all over his waiting room . When I first went to see him and stepped into the waiting room I was ready for a fight. But when he said I was not a candidate for those drugs I had renewed interest in what he had to say. I was impressed because he agreed that the lab tests available to us don't always tell us the whole story and that doctors need to listen to their patients . He actually teaches at one of the universities associated with the hospital system here to teach interns how to actually listen to patients and hear their symptoms. Something I think we can agree is missing in western medicine. Karma 2007 @ 375 mg Effexor - 11/29/2011 - 43.75 mg Effexor (regular) & .625 mg Xanax 200 mg Gabapentin 2/27/21 - 194.5 mg, 5/28/21 - 183 mg, 8/2/21 - 170 mg, 11/28/21 - 150 mg, 4/19/22 - 122 mg; 8//7/22 - 100 mg; 12/17 - 75mg; 8/17 - 45 mg; 10/16 40 mg Xanax taper: 3/11/12 - 0.9375 mg, 3/25/12 - 0.875 mg, 4/6/12 - 0.8125 mg, 4/18/12 - 0.75 ; 10/16 40mg; 1/16 0.6875 mg; at some point 0.625 mg Effexor taper: 1/29/12 - 40.625 mg, 4/29/12 - 39.875 mg, 5/11/12 - Switched to liquid Effexor, 5/25/12 - 38 mg, 7/6/12 - 35 mg, 8/17/12 - 32 mg, 9/14/12 - 30 mg, 10/19/12 - 28 mg, 11/9/12 - 26 mg, 11/30/12 - 24 mg, 01/14/13 - 22 mg. 02/25/13 - 20.8 mg, 03/18/13 - 19.2 mg, 4/15/13 - 17.6 mg, 8/10/13 - 16.4 mg, 9/7/13 - 15.2 mg, 10/19/13 - 14 mg, 1/15/14 - 13.2 mg, 3/1/2014 - 12.6 mg, 5/4/14 - 12 mg, 8/1/14 - 11.4 mg, 8/29/14 - 10.8 mg; 10/14/14 - 10.2 mg; 12/15/14 - 10 mg, 1/11/15 - 9.5 mg, 2/8/15 - 9 mg, 3/21/15 - 8.5 mg, 5/1/15 - 8 mg, 6/9/15 - 7.5 mg, 7/8/15 - 7 mg, 8/22/15 - 6.5 mg, 10/4/15 - 6 mg; 1/1/16 - 5.6 mg; 2/6/16 - 5.2 mg; 4/9 - 4.8 mg; 7/7 4.5 mg; 10/7 4.25 mg; 11/4 4.0 mg; 11/25 3.8 mg; 4/24 3.6 mg; 5/27 3.4 mg; 7/8 3.2 mg ... 10/18 2.8 mg; 1/18 2.6 mg; 4/7 2.4 mg; 5/26 2.15mg; 8/18 1.85 mg; 10/7 1.7 mg; 12/1 1.45 mg; 3/2 1.2 mg; 5/4 0.90 mg; 6/1 0.80 mg; 6/22 0.65 mg; 08/03 0.50 mg, 08/10 0.45 mg, 10/05 0.325 mg, 11/23 0.2 mg, 12/14 0.15 mg, 12/21 0.125 mg, 02/28 0.03125 mg, 2/15 0.015625 mg, 2/29/20 0.00 mg - OFF Effexor I am not a medical professional - this is not medical advice. My suggestions are based on personal experience, reading, observation and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers Link to comment
Administrator Karma Posted March 3, 2012 Author Administrator Share Posted March 3, 2012 Karma, I haven't dissected this study yet, but wanted to share. It's interesting to see a study looking at Bone Mineral Density in MEN taking SSRIs. Association of Low Bone Mineral Density With Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor Use by Older Men Haney, E, et al (Oregon Health & Sciences Univ) Archives of Internal Medicine 2007; 167(12):1246-1251 Thanks, Barb. I'll have to study this and bring it with me when I see the bone doc. I posted to the Adrenal group to get their input on my condition and one of the mods who has been so good to me posted about five links indicating the SSRIs and Neurontin are associated with bone loss. Here is one: http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20070625/antidepressants-may-speed-bone-loss Since we know that excess cortisol results in bone loss perhaps it is the SSRI's affect on cortisol that results in bone loss ... One of the other mods on the Adrenals site suggested that my inability to optimize my estrogen could be a contributing factor. I've been researching Calcitonin and it appears that it can be prescribed for rebuilding bone, but the sex hormones need to be at the right level. Maybe I can get the bone doc to help me with that ... since he is trained as an internal medicine doctor he ought to be able to work with hormones. The tricky part is that I can't be trying a lot of different supplements or other hormones since my nervous system is so sensitive due to coming off of Effexor. I've read that excess calcium can contribute to depression and associated symptoms ... maybe my nervous system isn't over-sensitized by coming off of Effexor, but is acting up as a result of whatever is causing me to lose bone mass. Karma 2007 @ 375 mg Effexor - 11/29/2011 - 43.75 mg Effexor (regular) & .625 mg Xanax 200 mg Gabapentin 2/27/21 - 194.5 mg, 5/28/21 - 183 mg, 8/2/21 - 170 mg, 11/28/21 - 150 mg, 4/19/22 - 122 mg; 8//7/22 - 100 mg; 12/17 - 75mg; 8/17 - 45 mg; 10/16 40 mg Xanax taper: 3/11/12 - 0.9375 mg, 3/25/12 - 0.875 mg, 4/6/12 - 0.8125 mg, 4/18/12 - 0.75 ; 10/16 40mg; 1/16 0.6875 mg; at some point 0.625 mg Effexor taper: 1/29/12 - 40.625 mg, 4/29/12 - 39.875 mg, 5/11/12 - Switched to liquid Effexor, 5/25/12 - 38 mg, 7/6/12 - 35 mg, 8/17/12 - 32 mg, 9/14/12 - 30 mg, 10/19/12 - 28 mg, 11/9/12 - 26 mg, 11/30/12 - 24 mg, 01/14/13 - 22 mg. 02/25/13 - 20.8 mg, 03/18/13 - 19.2 mg, 4/15/13 - 17.6 mg, 8/10/13 - 16.4 mg, 9/7/13 - 15.2 mg, 10/19/13 - 14 mg, 1/15/14 - 13.2 mg, 3/1/2014 - 12.6 mg, 5/4/14 - 12 mg, 8/1/14 - 11.4 mg, 8/29/14 - 10.8 mg; 10/14/14 - 10.2 mg; 12/15/14 - 10 mg, 1/11/15 - 9.5 mg, 2/8/15 - 9 mg, 3/21/15 - 8.5 mg, 5/1/15 - 8 mg, 6/9/15 - 7.5 mg, 7/8/15 - 7 mg, 8/22/15 - 6.5 mg, 10/4/15 - 6 mg; 1/1/16 - 5.6 mg; 2/6/16 - 5.2 mg; 4/9 - 4.8 mg; 7/7 4.5 mg; 10/7 4.25 mg; 11/4 4.0 mg; 11/25 3.8 mg; 4/24 3.6 mg; 5/27 3.4 mg; 7/8 3.2 mg ... 10/18 2.8 mg; 1/18 2.6 mg; 4/7 2.4 mg; 5/26 2.15mg; 8/18 1.85 mg; 10/7 1.7 mg; 12/1 1.45 mg; 3/2 1.2 mg; 5/4 0.90 mg; 6/1 0.80 mg; 6/22 0.65 mg; 08/03 0.50 mg, 08/10 0.45 mg, 10/05 0.325 mg, 11/23 0.2 mg, 12/14 0.15 mg, 12/21 0.125 mg, 02/28 0.03125 mg, 2/15 0.015625 mg, 2/29/20 0.00 mg - OFF Effexor I am not a medical professional - this is not medical advice. My suggestions are based on personal experience, reading, observation and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers Link to comment
Barbarannamated Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Interesting background. Not many MDs look outside the blinders of their specialty to investigate possible correlations and causation that probably seem farfetched to others. AND listens to patients! A few Med schools use horses to teach physicians how to interact with patients. Sometimes mine mirror too honestly. ;-o Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc). Link to comment
Administrator Karma Posted March 16, 2012 Author Administrator Share Posted March 16, 2012 Hi my dear friends, Five days ago I reduced my Xanax dosage by 0.0625 mg down to 0.9375 mg - I had slight trouble with sleep the first night and a little anxiety and irritability the next morning, but otherwise I've been feeling good. I've been able to fall asleep and sleep deeply, waking refreshed in the morning. The only withdrawal symptom is some slight night sweats. I just felt "guided" to start tapering the Xanax dosage and I have to say that I'm actually feeling better than I did before I made the change. Logically there were all kinds of reasons not to start the taper, but I just felt I had to do it. It seems to be the right thing for me. Oh, on the Osteoporosis front ... my RBC Magnesium came back at 5.6 (4.2-6.8) so that's pretty good and it isn't likely that I have a magnesium/calcium imbalance. Now I just have to wait to get the rest of my lab results from the Bone specialist in early April - I hope there is something there because I really dislike having an issue that doesn't have a clear solution. I'll keep you posted ... Love and Light Karma 2007 @ 375 mg Effexor - 11/29/2011 - 43.75 mg Effexor (regular) & .625 mg Xanax 200 mg Gabapentin 2/27/21 - 194.5 mg, 5/28/21 - 183 mg, 8/2/21 - 170 mg, 11/28/21 - 150 mg, 4/19/22 - 122 mg; 8//7/22 - 100 mg; 12/17 - 75mg; 8/17 - 45 mg; 10/16 40 mg Xanax taper: 3/11/12 - 0.9375 mg, 3/25/12 - 0.875 mg, 4/6/12 - 0.8125 mg, 4/18/12 - 0.75 ; 10/16 40mg; 1/16 0.6875 mg; at some point 0.625 mg Effexor taper: 1/29/12 - 40.625 mg, 4/29/12 - 39.875 mg, 5/11/12 - Switched to liquid Effexor, 5/25/12 - 38 mg, 7/6/12 - 35 mg, 8/17/12 - 32 mg, 9/14/12 - 30 mg, 10/19/12 - 28 mg, 11/9/12 - 26 mg, 11/30/12 - 24 mg, 01/14/13 - 22 mg. 02/25/13 - 20.8 mg, 03/18/13 - 19.2 mg, 4/15/13 - 17.6 mg, 8/10/13 - 16.4 mg, 9/7/13 - 15.2 mg, 10/19/13 - 14 mg, 1/15/14 - 13.2 mg, 3/1/2014 - 12.6 mg, 5/4/14 - 12 mg, 8/1/14 - 11.4 mg, 8/29/14 - 10.8 mg; 10/14/14 - 10.2 mg; 12/15/14 - 10 mg, 1/11/15 - 9.5 mg, 2/8/15 - 9 mg, 3/21/15 - 8.5 mg, 5/1/15 - 8 mg, 6/9/15 - 7.5 mg, 7/8/15 - 7 mg, 8/22/15 - 6.5 mg, 10/4/15 - 6 mg; 1/1/16 - 5.6 mg; 2/6/16 - 5.2 mg; 4/9 - 4.8 mg; 7/7 4.5 mg; 10/7 4.25 mg; 11/4 4.0 mg; 11/25 3.8 mg; 4/24 3.6 mg; 5/27 3.4 mg; 7/8 3.2 mg ... 10/18 2.8 mg; 1/18 2.6 mg; 4/7 2.4 mg; 5/26 2.15mg; 8/18 1.85 mg; 10/7 1.7 mg; 12/1 1.45 mg; 3/2 1.2 mg; 5/4 0.90 mg; 6/1 0.80 mg; 6/22 0.65 mg; 08/03 0.50 mg, 08/10 0.45 mg, 10/05 0.325 mg, 11/23 0.2 mg, 12/14 0.15 mg, 12/21 0.125 mg, 02/28 0.03125 mg, 2/15 0.015625 mg, 2/29/20 0.00 mg - OFF Effexor I am not a medical professional - this is not medical advice. My suggestions are based on personal experience, reading, observation and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers Link to comment
alexjuice Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I'd like to give any one who reads my entry a little courage to push back on your doctors. Here are two examples: Dr.'s nurse calls and says the doctor wants me to have a total body bone scan. (This procedure uses a radioactive isotope and I don't like the idea of radiation no matter how safe they say it is). I say "no, I don't." .... I thought of this a few weeks ago when after I was referred to a rheumatologist following bloodwork. Doc wanted hip x-ray, hips being main source of pain. I agree. I lie on the table in undergarmets and the xray emitter, like a gun, hovers right over my unprotected pelvis. After waiting a moment for some protective gear, I realize none's acoming. I say to the tech, "Hey, it looks like this radiation is heading right for my sensitive parts." This guy, late 30s, Bronx accent, smarty attitude replies, "Yea, ya gotta point." Surprised by his response I say, "Wait, wait... but it's safe though?" He responds, "What's safe, ya know? Is driving in your car safe?" And fe flips the switch, "Breathe and hold," walks into the other room. Then re-emerges. "But wait, it's not like I can never have kids after this?" He laughs. "Naw buddy, you'll probably be fine." At that moment I actually recalled this post of yours! Then I thought, I think I've reached my limit on the radiation as well. Alex "Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me. Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there Everybody's got to move somewhere Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow Things should start to get interesting right about now." - Zimmerman Link to comment
alexjuice Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Hi my dear friends, Five days ago I reduced my Xanax dosage by 0.0625 mg down to 0.9375 mg - I had slight trouble with sleep the first night and a little anxiety and irritability the next morning, but otherwise I've been feeling good. I've been able to fall asleep and sleep deeply, waking refreshed in the morning. The only withdrawal symptom is some slight night sweats. I just felt "guided" to start tapering the Xanax dosage and I have to say that I'm actually feeling better than I did before I made the change. Logically there were all kinds of reasons not to start the taper, but I just felt I had to do it. It seems to be the right thing for me. Oh, on the Osteoporosis front ... my RBC Magnesium came back at 5.6 (4.2-6.8) so that's pretty good and it isn't likely that I have a magnesium/calcium imbalance. Now I just have to wait to get the rest of my lab results from the Bone specialist in early April - I hope there is something there because I really dislike having an issue that doesn't have a clear solution. I'll keep you posted ... Love and Light Karma I know exactly what you mean about uncertaintly and health ailments. The uncertainty is worse, it feels, than the diagnosis. At least for me. Like if I have some test and it comes back inconclusive, that's the worst result. Even worse than confirmatory. If I discover I have a certain problem then at least I get to put the uncertainty in the past and move forward into solution/options mode. The waiting is the hardest part. Hang in there Karma. You're doing a great job dealing with this with such an enlightened attitude. "Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me. Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there Everybody's got to move somewhere Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow Things should start to get interesting right about now." - Zimmerman Link to comment
Barbarannamated Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I lie on the table in undergarmets and the xray emitter, like a gun, hovers right over my unprotected pelvis. After waiting a moment for some protective gear, I realize none's acoming. I say to the tech, "Hey, it looks like this radiation is heading right for my sensitive parts." This guy, late 30s, Bronx accent, smarty attitude replies, "Yea, ya gotta point." Surprised by his response I say, "Wait, wait... but it's safe though?" He responds, "What's safe, ya know? Is driving in your car safe?" And fe flips the switch, "Breathe and hold," walks into the other room. Then re-emerges. "But wait, it's not like I can never have kids after this?" He laughs. "Naw buddy, you'll probably be fine." Alex I'm speechless. Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc). Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted March 18, 2012 Administrator Share Posted March 18, 2012 I always say, "Managed care means YOU manage THEM." This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
Administrator Karma Posted March 18, 2012 Author Administrator Share Posted March 18, 2012 I'm a professional project manager and I look at my health care like a project ... as the project manager, I am ultimately responsible for the outcome of the project - doctors are high-paid consultants to my project who give me some form of educated opinion which I can use or discard. Sometimes I take the nucleus of their idea and do my own research, sometimes I discard their information based on where it comes from (especially when it is spew from pharmaceutical companies). Ultimately, I make the decisions. Alex, I'm so sorry for your experience - where is the empathy and compassion? Does anyone besides me think that the companies making money off of the radiation equipment are the ones telling those techs there is no danger to the patient - and they are the ones making the money ... yeah, don't trust them either. That's why the techs where badges that indicate if they have had too much radiation exposure. However, I do think this exposure is probably nothing for you to be concerned about. I think this was a valid choice based on the pain your having. Sometimes we have to go along with the doctor's diagnostic choices. For example, I do think that mammograms contribute to the epidemic of thyroid cancer, but I get my mammogram annually anyway. Ok, so I actually stretch it out so that it is more like two years between exposures , but I still go along with the screening. Karma 2007 @ 375 mg Effexor - 11/29/2011 - 43.75 mg Effexor (regular) & .625 mg Xanax 200 mg Gabapentin 2/27/21 - 194.5 mg, 5/28/21 - 183 mg, 8/2/21 - 170 mg, 11/28/21 - 150 mg, 4/19/22 - 122 mg; 8//7/22 - 100 mg; 12/17 - 75mg; 8/17 - 45 mg; 10/16 40 mg Xanax taper: 3/11/12 - 0.9375 mg, 3/25/12 - 0.875 mg, 4/6/12 - 0.8125 mg, 4/18/12 - 0.75 ; 10/16 40mg; 1/16 0.6875 mg; at some point 0.625 mg Effexor taper: 1/29/12 - 40.625 mg, 4/29/12 - 39.875 mg, 5/11/12 - Switched to liquid Effexor, 5/25/12 - 38 mg, 7/6/12 - 35 mg, 8/17/12 - 32 mg, 9/14/12 - 30 mg, 10/19/12 - 28 mg, 11/9/12 - 26 mg, 11/30/12 - 24 mg, 01/14/13 - 22 mg. 02/25/13 - 20.8 mg, 03/18/13 - 19.2 mg, 4/15/13 - 17.6 mg, 8/10/13 - 16.4 mg, 9/7/13 - 15.2 mg, 10/19/13 - 14 mg, 1/15/14 - 13.2 mg, 3/1/2014 - 12.6 mg, 5/4/14 - 12 mg, 8/1/14 - 11.4 mg, 8/29/14 - 10.8 mg; 10/14/14 - 10.2 mg; 12/15/14 - 10 mg, 1/11/15 - 9.5 mg, 2/8/15 - 9 mg, 3/21/15 - 8.5 mg, 5/1/15 - 8 mg, 6/9/15 - 7.5 mg, 7/8/15 - 7 mg, 8/22/15 - 6.5 mg, 10/4/15 - 6 mg; 1/1/16 - 5.6 mg; 2/6/16 - 5.2 mg; 4/9 - 4.8 mg; 7/7 4.5 mg; 10/7 4.25 mg; 11/4 4.0 mg; 11/25 3.8 mg; 4/24 3.6 mg; 5/27 3.4 mg; 7/8 3.2 mg ... 10/18 2.8 mg; 1/18 2.6 mg; 4/7 2.4 mg; 5/26 2.15mg; 8/18 1.85 mg; 10/7 1.7 mg; 12/1 1.45 mg; 3/2 1.2 mg; 5/4 0.90 mg; 6/1 0.80 mg; 6/22 0.65 mg; 08/03 0.50 mg, 08/10 0.45 mg, 10/05 0.325 mg, 11/23 0.2 mg, 12/14 0.15 mg, 12/21 0.125 mg, 02/28 0.03125 mg, 2/15 0.015625 mg, 2/29/20 0.00 mg - OFF Effexor I am not a medical professional - this is not medical advice. My suggestions are based on personal experience, reading, observation and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers Link to comment
Administrator Karma Posted March 29, 2012 Author Administrator Share Posted March 29, 2012 Karma update: I am down to 0.875 mg Xanax and I am amazed at the profound difference in how I feel when I first decrement and then a few days later when I'm clear of the withdrawal symptoms. When I first decrement I feel kind of paranoid and irritable, somewhat combative, and somewhat incompetent ... but after a few days I feel totally confident and competent, I feel more centered ... I am much more empathetic and supportive of others. Weird. Thankfully, my withdrawal symptoms from benzos are short-lived and really quite tolerable, all things considered. So far, so good. I feel that I am making progress and even though it isn't with the ADs this forum deals with, I think any kind of positive progress gives others hope. Love and light, Karma 2007 @ 375 mg Effexor - 11/29/2011 - 43.75 mg Effexor (regular) & .625 mg Xanax 200 mg Gabapentin 2/27/21 - 194.5 mg, 5/28/21 - 183 mg, 8/2/21 - 170 mg, 11/28/21 - 150 mg, 4/19/22 - 122 mg; 8//7/22 - 100 mg; 12/17 - 75mg; 8/17 - 45 mg; 10/16 40 mg Xanax taper: 3/11/12 - 0.9375 mg, 3/25/12 - 0.875 mg, 4/6/12 - 0.8125 mg, 4/18/12 - 0.75 ; 10/16 40mg; 1/16 0.6875 mg; at some point 0.625 mg Effexor taper: 1/29/12 - 40.625 mg, 4/29/12 - 39.875 mg, 5/11/12 - Switched to liquid Effexor, 5/25/12 - 38 mg, 7/6/12 - 35 mg, 8/17/12 - 32 mg, 9/14/12 - 30 mg, 10/19/12 - 28 mg, 11/9/12 - 26 mg, 11/30/12 - 24 mg, 01/14/13 - 22 mg. 02/25/13 - 20.8 mg, 03/18/13 - 19.2 mg, 4/15/13 - 17.6 mg, 8/10/13 - 16.4 mg, 9/7/13 - 15.2 mg, 10/19/13 - 14 mg, 1/15/14 - 13.2 mg, 3/1/2014 - 12.6 mg, 5/4/14 - 12 mg, 8/1/14 - 11.4 mg, 8/29/14 - 10.8 mg; 10/14/14 - 10.2 mg; 12/15/14 - 10 mg, 1/11/15 - 9.5 mg, 2/8/15 - 9 mg, 3/21/15 - 8.5 mg, 5/1/15 - 8 mg, 6/9/15 - 7.5 mg, 7/8/15 - 7 mg, 8/22/15 - 6.5 mg, 10/4/15 - 6 mg; 1/1/16 - 5.6 mg; 2/6/16 - 5.2 mg; 4/9 - 4.8 mg; 7/7 4.5 mg; 10/7 4.25 mg; 11/4 4.0 mg; 11/25 3.8 mg; 4/24 3.6 mg; 5/27 3.4 mg; 7/8 3.2 mg ... 10/18 2.8 mg; 1/18 2.6 mg; 4/7 2.4 mg; 5/26 2.15mg; 8/18 1.85 mg; 10/7 1.7 mg; 12/1 1.45 mg; 3/2 1.2 mg; 5/4 0.90 mg; 6/1 0.80 mg; 6/22 0.65 mg; 08/03 0.50 mg, 08/10 0.45 mg, 10/05 0.325 mg, 11/23 0.2 mg, 12/14 0.15 mg, 12/21 0.125 mg, 02/28 0.03125 mg, 2/15 0.015625 mg, 2/29/20 0.00 mg - OFF Effexor I am not a medical professional - this is not medical advice. My suggestions are based on personal experience, reading, observation and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers Link to comment
Barbarannamated Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 That's awesome, Karma! You are so inspirational. Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc). Link to comment
EFXRob Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Great to read of progress... am waiting for my pain issues to subside before contemplating any tapering... and I get confidence when I see that you have gone down from dosages even greater than mine... assumedly over 4-5 years ??? and that you have done it with almost no WD till recently.... But I recently had a pain procedure...which has resulted in flared pain...and as I have pain, I alsoI have anxiety and depression...a link my pain docs are very well aware of. They already knew this, but when they tired of re explaining to other docs, they devised a simple experiment... which is reported at the link below. When my pain descends below a certain threshold... the D&A just vanishes...and I can start participating again in a fuller life...but am aware of the lack of fullness due to Effexor... So while I am in contact with pain docs...I am very frustrated because this resolution is taking a long time... and I need to be further along before I consider any tapering.. But in the mean time, I am reading your stories.. Rob http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304395997000602 Ativan: quite 1990 96-2001: Aropax (Paxil), Luvox. two CTs (bad) 2001-2012: 300 Effexor Nov 2011: 25%, 2 week reduction (v bad) Dec:2011" reinstate to 300mg (Chronic pain condition, well managed) Link to comment
Barbarannamated Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Good article, Rob. THANK YOU! My husband knows of your doc's work and excellent reputation, so very helpful material. Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc). Link to comment
EFXRob Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Barb... you can probably see why I have trust in these people...in a way I have not extended to p docs..and even though haven't got the result I want (yet).. I don't think I could be with a more knowledgable group in my country.. Regards Robert Ativan: quite 1990 96-2001: Aropax (Paxil), Luvox. two CTs (bad) 2001-2012: 300 Effexor Nov 2011: 25%, 2 week reduction (v bad) Dec:2011" reinstate to 300mg (Chronic pain condition, well managed) Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted March 29, 2012 Administrator Share Posted March 29, 2012 Thanks for the good news, Karma. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
alexjuice Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I am down to 0.875 mg Xanax and I am amazed at the profound difference in how I feel when I first decrement and then a few days later when I'm clear of the withdrawal symptoms. When I first decrement I feel kind of paranoid and irritable, somewhat combative, and somewhat incompetent ... but after a few days I feel totally confident and competent, I feel more centered ... I am much more empathetic and supportive of others. Weird. Thankfully, my withdrawal symptoms from benzos are short-lived and really quite tolerable, all things considered. So far, so good. It is interesting when I think of how much I can change just by changing the amount of a little pill or two. I am glad that you are getting through the rough patches and back to 'normal' fairly quickly. I feel that I am making progress and even though it isn't with the ADs this forum deals with, I think any kind of positive progress gives others hope. Love and light, Karma I second that. You appear to be making excellent progress. Slow and steady wins the race. And while this forum isn't devoted to benzos, so many of have history and/or present difficulty with them. It's great for me (and others too) to hear that you are doing well with them. Keep at it! Alex "Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me. Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there Everybody's got to move somewhere Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow Things should start to get interesting right about now." - Zimmerman Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Skyler Posted March 30, 2012 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted March 30, 2012 Altostrata, thanks for the suggestion to taper the Effexor first. My gut has always told me that I need to get off of that one first. Missing doses used to result in headaches and head zaps, but I'm so low now that I don't really experience those symptoms when I miss a dose ... and I have missed doses. But then every body jumps in the pool with experiences heard or experienced on gabapentin or benzos and says I should do those first. Hi Karma.. You mentioned the feedback you have had from Benzo Forums on the choice of tapering benzos vs. ADs. The people who volunteer on most forums are very well intended, but tapering off benzos involves so many variables that sometimes advice leans toward being 'cookbook'.. so while it might be better to hold off on tapering antidepressants in general, this would probably not be true when you are on an antidepressant with such a short half life as Effexor. I'm coming off a benzo, and am still 'detoxing' from all the conflicting messages regarding what is best.. Schuyler As always, LISTEN TO YOUR BODY! A proud supporter of the 10% (or slower) rule. Requip - 3/16 ZERO Total time on 25 years. Lyrica: 8/15 ZERO Total time on 7 or 8 yrs.BENZO FREE 10/13 (started tapering 7/10) Total time on 25 years. Read my intro thread here, and check the about me section. "No matter how cynical you get, it's almost impossible to keep up." Lily Tomlin Link to comment
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