DaveB: trying to stop a roller coaster year

[Rosetta]

I'm here.  This is a long haul.  I don't know what to say to you, but I do hope that somehow you start feeling better.  I'm tired from having anxiety or sadness so often.  I'm just trying to remember that ven if my life isn't the way I would like it to be I'm doing ok considering what's happening in my body.  I hope you are, too.

[WackoSirJacko]

9 hours ago, DaveB said:

Hmmm, seems like I am talking to myself these days. Hopefully that means my friends are feeling better and not on the site as much anymore.

 

I'm listening pal, keep trucking on!

[powerback]

Your far from alone dave ,good on your tapering ,I've held for a year and only getting worse so its quite the mess .its torture being stuck on a drug that only gives problems yet when I reduce 1 bead im suicidal and have headbutted the door frame and drawn blood ,im so sad and sorry for what has become of me   ,my partner has seen me with blood on my forehead[not deep] one day and the pain in my heart for bringing this on her door will eternally scar me but I will not live in shame,guilt  or judgement because I deserve to be well  and happy ,we all do .

Take care and keep ticking away at it .

[SkyBlue]

On 10/1/2018 at 7:48 PM, DaveB said:

I have gone down to 20MGS of Paxil as I was not stable after so many months, so why not try a lower dose.

 

I can understand the frustration of holding for a year, it looks like, and not seeing improvement, but that is a big dosage jump. I hope it works okay for you. I encourage you to please not make any more changes for quite a while.

[Hazel]

Hi Dave,

Sorry to hear you are having a hard time of it.  I can completely understand the need to do something different after holding for so long and only feeling worse.  It’s so difficult to know what to do since we just get so desperate for relief.

 I hope that things settle down for you soon and you notice some relief from the reduction.  I would definitely hold for a good long while and really focus on taking care of yourself.

Hazel

[RachelSusan]

Dave,

 

It looks like you went from 30 mgs of Paxil to 20 mgs of Paxil on September 28th.  If you have been feeling an increase of symptoms since then it is to be expected. I experience an increase in tremors each time I taper then they decrease again, but still return when I get tired or am coming down with a cold.  I think perhaps you might expect fluctuations during this entire process with an increase each time you taper, then that followed but a decrease to the your normal bad. Does that make sense?

 

I understand your interest in switching to Zoloft but what you have to weigh is the upset to your body by switching to a new medication vs the help you perceive you might get from being on Zoloft vs Paxil. While Zoloft might have been a better choice for you at one time, changing now would probably do more harm than good. I don't advise it but it you do decide to go that route you know that everybody here will support you in any decisions you make.

 

Hang in there buddy.

RS

[DaveB]

@Rosetta @WackoSirJacko @powerback @SkyBlue @Hazel @RachelSusan

 

Thanks for the responses and feedback guys, it means a lot. Honestly I think I have felt significantly better since my drop to 20, certainly no worse. I think I will hold here for a good 6 months and see if I can even out. I know I dropped way too quick, but I felt it was the right thing to do, time will tell. I am hoping there is not a crash coming. I am certainly not wanting to switch to zoloft, I don’t want to go back up on anything, I am sick of these drugs.

[Carmie]

Hey Dave, 

 

You seem to have a plan which is good. Sometimes holding is really what we need to do. I held recently for many months too. 

 

Wishing you all the best inthis horrific journey. 

 

Sending hugs🤗

[DaveB]

Update...still a struggle. Not sure what to do honestly. I am just not getting any better. I may not be strong enough for this, I don’t know if I can keep grinding through my life like this.

[ChessieCat]

September 4th 2018: Paxil 40mgs, Zyprexa 2.5mgs

September 4th - September 27th: Paxil 30mgs, Zyprexa 2.5mgs

September 28th - Now: Paxil 20mgs, Zyprexa 2.5mgs

 

From the above information it looks like you have made a 50% Paxil reduction in a a period of 24 days.  If this is correct then you might want to consider making a small updose.

[manymoretodays]

DaveB,

You are not superman!   I do love your avatar and it IS good, symbolically.

 

You are reducing your Paxil way too fast right now.  And a 24 day HOLD prior to another drop?

Of course you are feeling it.

What kind of symptoms are you having?  When did they begin?  Are you keeping records, notes? 

I'm seeing a 25% decrease in Paxil on September 4th.

Then an additional 33% drop(from 30 mg) in Paxil on September 28th.

 

Would you consider a bit of an updose?  Unfortunately, I think you may have hit a spot now where much more cautious tapering may be called for.

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

this ^ discusses a bit about updosing too.  Your brain and CNS might thank you for this.  The CNS likes stability, needs some stability to heal and recover.  You would not neccessarily jump on back up to 30mg or 40mg from the 20mg dose you are presently on.  I could confer, to figure out the best updose for you, if you'll consider that. 

 

Can you give us a bit more information, so we may best help you.  Were you feeling stable before the drop on September 4th?  Are you on any other medications or new supplements right now?

Okay.....all for the moment.

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

Edited October 20, 2018 by manymoretodays
additional ? comment re:avatar

[DaveB]

21 minutes ago, manymoretodays said:

DaveB,

You are not superman!  You are reducing your Paxil way too fast right now.  And a 24 day HOLD prior to another drop?

Of course you are feeling it.

What kind of symptoms are you having?  When did they begin?  Are you keeping records, notes? 

I'm seeing a 25% decrease in Paxil on September 4th.

Then an additional 33% drop(from 30 mg) in Paxil on September 28th.

 

Would you consider a bit of an updose?  Unfortunately, I think you may have hit a spot now where much more cautious tapering may be called for.

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

this ^ discusses a bit about updosing too.  Your brain and CNS might thank you for this.  The CNS likes stability, needs some stability to heal and recover.  You would not neccessarily jump on back up to 30mg or 40mg from the 20mg dose you are presently on.  I could confer, to figure out the best updose for you, if you'll consider that. 

 

Can you give us a bit more information, so we may best help you.  Were you feeling stable before the drop on September 4th?  Are you on any other medications or new supplements right now?

Okay.....all for the moment.

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

No, I have honestly never been stable...not in the last almost 2 years. I held at 40mgs of Paxil and 2.5mgs of Zyprexa for 8 months with no improvement. I started testosterone therapy as my levels were EXTREMELY low in June, an I feel like I have gotten worse since then, not sure I dare stop now though. I cut by large amounts as I was sick of not getting better and was hoping the high dose of Paxil was what was keying me up, seems like that hasn’t been the case. Not sure if an upside is the right call at this point or not. Really frustrated and stuck without answers at this point.

[manymoretodays]

Hi again,

 

Okay.  How about some kind of withdrawal stable?

Are We There Yet? How Long is withdrawal going to take?

take a look at post (3) and (5) ^

And I edited my post, as I do like your avatar, it's good.

 

Do an interactions check, please and copy and paste here on your introduction:  drugs.com

Include the testosterone.  I don't know anything about using testosterone, other than it's a hormone/steroid,  and hormones are often already in a state of flux with W/D.  Have you had levels checked again?  And here's what we've got on testosterone therapy.  It may well have thrown things off.

 

Why taper by 10%

Dose plasma concentration curves

and go to the pictures ^

 

The CNS really likes stability. 

When we take medications, the CNS (central nervous system) responds by making changes over the months and years we take the drug. When the medication is discontinued, the CNS has to undo all the changes it made. Rebuilding the neurotransmitter production and reactivating the receptor and transporter cells takes time -- during that rebuilding process symptoms occur.  

Also with the changes in medications,  and doses, up and down.......often havoc results on an already sensitized nervous system.

 

Some of this might be redundant information for you but bear with me and take a look please.

I would think an updose might be in order........

And then perhaps a discontinuation of the testosterone?

 

See what you think after some reading as well.

Are you up to doing some drug and symptom logs for us?  Go simple with it, just the basics.  Note the day.  Then time on the left, drug name, dosage, symptoms on the right.  Include sleep as well as your testosterone and dose and any other supplements. 

That will really help us too, as far as advising you at this point.

 

Okay, lets get some sleep now, eh?

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2018 by manymoretodays
bolded drug and symptom logs

[DaveB]

Friday:

7AM: woke to immediate anxiety

7:30: took multivitamin, fish oil, magnesium, vitamin D

8:00 - 5PM: Work, Strong anxiety in waves

5PM - 8pm: family pictures, bad anxiety

8PM - 11PM: Anixiety gone, feeling good

11PM: take 20mgs Paxil, 2.5mg Zyprexa

12PM: Bed

 

Testosterone is a weekly shot (Monday), they also give me an estrogen blocker at that time.

Pretty typical day for me.

 

[RachelSusan]

Hi DaveB,

I'm sorry to read that you are not feeling good.  I hope this passes quickly.

All my best,

RS

[DaveB]

15 hours ago, RachelSusan said:

Hi DaveB,

I'm sorry to read that you are not feeling good.  I hope this passes quickly.

All my best,

RS

 

Hi Rachel, thanks for stopping by! Yeah, I am pretty discouraged not sure what to do at this point. I just want to feel normal again!

[David182]

On 10/20/2018 at 6:24 PM, DaveB said:

Friday:

7AM: woke to immediate anxiety

7:30: took multivitamin, fish oil, magnesium, vitamin D

8:00 - 5PM: Work, Strong anxiety in waves

5PM - 8pm: family pictures, bad anxiety

8PM - 11PM: Anixiety gone, feeling good

11PM: take 20mgs Paxil, 2.5mg Zyprexa

12PM: Bed

 

Testosterone is a weekly shot (Monday), they also give me an estrogen blocker at that time.

Pretty typical day for me.

 

 

Hi DaveB, 

 

i’ve read Taking Vit C, B5, and/or Folic Acid can help reduce cortisol. I don’t know how effective they may be but worth a try??

I take my vit c at night before bed so it’s hard to say how much it helps.

I’ve heard promising things about essential oils, particularly CBD oil (I’ve heard good things from a few of my family members taking it orally for anxiety).

 

I don’t want to introduce anything that might harm but these might pose a low risk route to try.

 

What kind of magnesium are you taking and how often?

[ChessieCat]

4 hours ago, David182 said:

I’ve heard promising things about essential oils, particularly CBD oil (I’ve heard good things from a few of my family members taking it orally for anxiety).

 

cannabis-marijuana-thc-and-cbd-or-hemp-oil

 

[manymoretodays]

On 10/20/2018 at 5:24 PM, DaveB said:

Friday:

7AM: woke to immediate anxiety

7:30: took multivitamin, fish oil, magnesium, vitamin D

8:00 - 5PM: Work, Strong anxiety in waves

5PM - 8pm: family pictures, bad anxiety

8PM - 11PM: Anixiety gone, feeling good

11PM: take 20mgs Paxil, 2.5mg Zyprexa

12PM: Bed

 

Testosterone is a weekly shot (Monday), they also give me an estrogen blocker at that time.

Pretty typical day for me.

 

 

Okay, thanks DaveB.

I did some conferring and if you reconsider........an updose of 1 or 2 mg might help a bit, with the Paxil. 

Tips for tapering off Paxil(paroxetine)

^ helps for finding formulations to do this with

How are you doing your decreases now?  Chopping pills?

 

The other link on reinstating, discusses updosing a bit too.

This would, however, involve HOLDING and patience on your part.

 

I think you may be doing some rather rash and potentially harmful reductions from my observations.  Harmful in the way........that........you throw off any stability gained by making such rapid jumps in tapering.  And then, instead of just holding after a change.........you further upset the apple cart and jump further down.

Do you see what I'm saying?

And then add in other stuff, possibly without doing much research, or asking for input.  Maybe I'm wrong here......maybe you did do tons of research on the testosterone?

 

So yes, it probably could be better for you now.  Hindsight though.   Good to see you get a couple hours at night, with some relief of anxiety.  Have you looked at some of the Claire Weekes stuff here.  Anxiety/fear helps?   Non-drug coping?

 

Let us know...........How can we help you?

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

Oh......just in comment to the post from David182.  I often use essential oils in a diffuser type thing(an aerosol thing, I even have a thingy in my car).......not CBD oil, but stuff like lavender, and other blends of aromas.......that can be amazingly calming.  So that's a thought too. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by manymoretodays

[wildchild93]

Hi Dave, ughhh i'm so sorry to hear this news. I just did a similar thing and pushed the envelope a little too far to try to shake some of the side effects that I hate. My cns clearly wasn't ready for that so I'm having to updose and hold now. 

[ChessieCat]

6 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

I often use essential oils in a diffuser type thing(an aerosol thing, I even have a thingy in my car).......not CBD oil, but stuff like lavender, and other blends of aromas.......that can be amazingly calming.  So that's a thought too. 

 

Please see this topic:  

 

[DaveB]

On 10/22/2018 at 12:58 PM, wildchild93 said:

Hi Dave, ughhh i'm so sorry to hear this news. I just did a similar thing and pushed the envelope a little too far to try to shake some of the side effects that I hate. My cns clearly wasn't ready for that so I'm having to updose and hold now. 

 

Shoot I am sorry wildchild, hopefully the updose has helped and you have stabilized?

[DaveB]

On 10/22/2018 at 7:44 AM, manymoretodays said:

 

Okay, thanks DaveB.

I did some conferring and if you reconsider........an updose of 1 or 2 mg might help a bit, with the Paxil. 

Tips for tapering off Paxil(paroxetine)

^ helps for finding formulations to do this with

How are you doing your decreases now?  Chopping pills?

 

The other link on reinstating, discusses updosing a bit too.

This would, however, involve HOLDING and patience on your part.

 

I think you may be doing some rather rash and potentially harmful reductions from my observations.  Harmful in the way........that........you throw off any stability gained by making such rapid jumps in tapering.  And then, instead of just holding after a change.........you further upset the apple cart and jump further down.

Do you see what I'm saying?

And then add in other stuff, possibly without doing much research, or asking for input.  Maybe I'm wrong here......maybe you did do tons of research on the testosterone?

 

So yes, it probably could be better for you now.  Hindsight though.   Good to see you get a couple hours at night, with some relief of anxiety.  Have you looked at some of the Claire Weekes stuff here.  Anxiety/fear helps?   Non-drug coping?

 

Let us know...........How can we help you?

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

Oh......just in comment to the post from David182.  I often use essential oils in a diffuser type thing(an aerosol thing, I even have a thingy in my car).......not CBD oil, but stuff like lavender, and other blends of aromas.......that can be amazingly calming.  So that's a thought too. 

 

Yes I am probably going too quickly, just feel like crap on the drugs, so why not try to get off them.

[ChessieCat]

Just want to draw your attention to this, which is relevant to going too quickly as well:

 

On 10/8/2012 at 5:17 PM, Altostrata said:

 

Don't suddenly go off medication assuming that reinstatement is a safety net. This is one of the reasons we advocate gradual tapering to minimize withdrawal symptoms. Once the nervous system is destabilized by withdrawal, all bets are off. Humpty Dumpty has fallen off the wall.  (Humpty Dumpty is a character in a children's nursery rhyme - he is an egg.)

 

 

Edited November 15, 2018 by manymoretodays
no edit done, was trying to requote

[RachelSusan]

Hi DaveB,

Sorry you are suffering.  I hope you find relief soon.

RS

[manymoretodays]

There you are DaveB.  You have returned.  Good.

 

3 hours ago, DaveB said:

just feel like crap on the drugs, so why not try to get off them.

 

You ARE gradually trying to get off them. 

And we just don't want you to risk feeling like worse, pardon my language, "crap".

I mean my history is a bit different, but I did that......got off some drugs/medications without W/D knowledge, or guidance at all........and wound up home bound and couched or in bed.......for months at a time sometimes.  I would have liked to bounce back to my "career" and it just didn't happen.  So......for you, don't do what I did!  In simple terms.  It wasn't so much anxiety for me for many years.......more of a walking dead thing.......while medicated, over medicated I suppose or in some awful overlapping withdrawal.  So there's that.

And I don't like either of your drugs either!!!  But it is what it is now.

 

What have the last couple of days been like?  You did good with the format.....drug and symptom log last round.  I saw 7 hours of sleep and 3 hours in the evening of relative relief, comparatively, to the rest of the day.

Any additional changes to doses or drugs this week?

 

Are you just off work on weekends then?  Are symptoms worse on weekends?  I mean I don't know if that is relevant and I know you just would like to be fully "back", whatever that might mean for you.

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

 

Edited November 11, 2018 by manymoretodays
spelling

[DaveB]

13 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

There you are DaveB.  You have returned.  Good.

 

 

You ARE gradually trying to get off them. 

And we just don't want you to risk feeling like worse, pardon my language, "crap".

I mean my history is a bit different, but I did that......got off some drugs/medications without W/D knowledge, or guidance at all........and wound up home bound and couched or in bed.......for months at a time sometimes.  I would have liked to bounce back to my "career" and it just didn't happen.  So......for you, don't do what I did!  In simple terms.  It wasn't so much anxiety for me for many years.......more of a walking dead thing.......while medicated, over medicated I suppose or in some awful overlapping withdrawal.  So there's that.

And I don't like either of your drugs either!!!  But it is what it is now.

 

What have the last couple of days been like?  You did good with the format.....drug and symptom log last round.  I saw 7 hours of sleep and 3 hours in the evening of relative relief, comparatively, to the rest of the day.

Any additional changes to doses or drugs this week?

 

Are you just off work on weekends then?  Are symptoms worse on weekends?  I mean I don't know if that is relevant and I know you just would like to be fully "back", whatever that might mean for you.

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

 

 

Last few days have been pretty rough, but still getting the respite at night even though I made a rather big drop. I have been feeling quite lightheaded and getting early awakenings since the drip. Overall not feeling better, not not much worse since the drop. I think I will now just hold here for 6 months to a year and see how I feel. What are everyone’s thoughts on the testosterone therapy? Could that be causing further problems in my state, would I be better off stopping those injections?

[Rosetta]

Hugs, Dave.  I wish I could answer your question, but I don't know.  Keeping you in my thoughts for what it is worth.

[manymoretodays]

Hey Dave,

I've been on some bioidenticals(hormonal preparation) all along.......before withdrawal, during, and after.

When I got here.  I cut them in half.  They are compounded into sublingual(absorb under the tongue) trochars(just a blob type pill/tablet).

.....and I had been on them for years and years already. Oh.....I should mention.  Estradiol and another precursor.....Pregnenolone. Progesterone.

I think our general consensus is don't use any steroids or hormones in W/D. 

I'm certainly not recommending them.

 

So......wondering........could you go lower with your weekly injection?  As far as the dose goes?  And then off?

I don't think I would recommend introducing any hormonal treatment during W/D.  I mean it's all in such constant flux anyway.

 

If I were you.....I'd pose the same question in the link I gave you too.

On 10/19/2018 at 11:10 PM, manymoretodays said:

And here's what we've got on testosterone therapy.  It may well have thrown things off.

 

 

I think it could be adding to your problems, sure.

On 11/11/2018 at 1:13 PM, DaveB said:

I think I will now just hold here for 6 months to a year and see how I feel.

Try and keep us updated DaveB.  And pop on in with questions and thoughts every now and then.  Okay?

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

Edited November 13, 2018 by manymoretodays
corrected my bioidentical hormone combination!!

[DaveB]

On 11/12/2018 at 9:30 AM, Rosetta said:

Hugs, Dave.  I wish I could answer your question, but I don't know.  Keeping you in my thoughts for what it is worth.

 

On 11/12/2018 at 10:32 AM, manymoretodays said:

Hey Dave,

I've been on some bioidenticals(hormonal preparation) all along.......before withdrawal, during, and after.

When I got here.  I cut them in half.  They are compounded into sublingual(absorb under the tongue) trochars(just a blob type pill/tablet).

.....and I had been on them for years and years already. Oh.....I should mention.  Estradiol and another precursor.....Pregnenolone. Progesterone.

I think our general consensus is don't use any steroids or hormones in W/D. 

I'm certainly not recommending them.

 

So......wondering........could you go lower with your weekly injection?  As far as the dose goes?  And then off?

I don't think I would recommend introducing any hormonal treatment during W/D.  I mean it's all in such constant flux anyway.

 

If I were you.....I'd pose the same question in the link I gave you too.

 

I think it could be adding to your problems, sure.

Try and keep us updated DaveB.  And pop on in with questions and thoughts every now and then.  Okay?

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

Thanks guys, mornings still are a huge struggle for me as far as anxiety goes. By night I am usually doing pretty good, but dread going to sleep cause I know what is waiting for me on the other side. 

 

Still not sure what to do about the testosterone. No doubt it has probably been worse for my anxiety the last 5 months I have been on it, but at this point would getting off be worse as it is again more adjustment for my body. Maybe better to stay on and let my body adjust to it and the lower dose of the Paxil to stabilize. I won’t be changing doses again anytime soon, I plan to stick to this for 6 months or so and allow some healing to happen. The drop from 20 to 10 has definitely made the anxiety worse and I wake earlier and more keyed up than before. Maybe my good friend @brassmonkey could weigh in with his thoughts.

[DaveB]

7:30PM and anxiety still going strong...ugh! Maybe I made a huge mistake dropping from 20 to 10. Thought I wasn’t doing well at 20 so why not try 10...seems I was doing better than I thought.

[RachelSusan]

DaveB,

If you are considering an up-dose you might want to talk to one of your mods about it quickly. If I am reading your medication list correctly it looks like you decreased a total of 75% from September 4th until November 7. Your icon is Superman however I think even Superman would react to a decrease like this. Take care of yourself my friend, we all hate to see you suffer.

RS

[DaveB]

1 hour ago, RachelSusan said:

DaveB,

If you are considering an up-dose you might want to talk to one of your mods about it quickly. If I am reading your medication list correctly it looks like you decreased a total of 75% from September 4th until November 7. Your icon is Superman however I think even Superman would react to a decrease like this. Take care of yourself my friend, we all hate to see you suffer.

RS

 

Yeah I think I got carried away with the cutting, an updose would probably be prudent, would that be the consensus of the mods?

[ChessieCat]

On 10/20/2018 at 3:02 PM, manymoretodays said:

You are not superman!   I do love your avatar and it IS good, symbolically.

 

You are reducing your Paxil way too fast right now.  And a 24 day HOLD prior to another drop?

Of course you are feeling it.

What kind of symptoms are you having?  When did they begin?  Are you keeping records, notes? 

I'm seeing a 25% decrease in Paxil on September 4th.

Then an additional 33% drop(from 30 mg) in Paxil on September 28th.

 

Would you consider a bit of an updose?  Unfortunately, I think you may have hit a spot now where much more cautious tapering may be called for.

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

this ^ discusses a bit about updosing too.  Your brain and CNS might thank you for this.  The CNS likes stability, needs some stability to heal and recover.  You would not neccessarily jump on back up to 30mg or 40mg from the 20mg dose you are presently on.  I could confer, to figure out the best updose for you, if you'll consider that. 

 

[DaveB]

12 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Ok, so I am assuming that you, ChessieCat would say an updose would be a good thing? My wife really wants me to avoid an uproar if at all possible, really thinks this last year+ on Paxil has just not been beneficial in any way, so why not try to go as low as possible. 

 

Of topic: has anyone experienced REALLY premature ejaculation when tapering down or off Paxil or any other SSRI?  

[brassmonkey]

Well Dave, you've made three extremely large changes in just a few months.  It's not quite a CT but pretty darn close. Any large udose is just going to cause a lot more trouble.  It may be possible to take the edge off of the symptoms with a very small updose like in the 1 to 2 mgai range.  Read through the,thread on updosing and see what you think.  You'll have to ride this one out for a long time, hopefully the updose will take the edge off.

 

I know that paxil causes a lot of problems with hormones, but I really don't know how it will react with the T shots.  My guess is not good.  Tapering shots can be a really messy process, but again I don't know what just stopping them will do.