DaveB: trying to stop a roller coaster year

[Tom37]

Hang in there....you see people often get worse at times even months out from feeling better.....maybe the worst the wave the more healing that is happening. I know that doesn’t help you right now but healing is happening. You started to see improvements before you changed your dose so that will happen again but it may take longer to see them due to the changes and the effect that had on you.....keep fighting.

[Altostrata]

1 hour ago, DaveB said:

That is part of the problem, is I am waking earlier now with intense anxiety. Used to be 7-7:30, now it is about 6AM. Funny cause when I woke at 4AM last night,  I felt ZERO anxiety and went back to bed no problem, then 6AM hits and it is like someone flipped a “pain switch” in my body.

 

Are your symptoms in the morning better or worse since you moved Paxil to the morning? Or are they worse sometimes?

 

That "pain switch" event sounds like the early-morning cortisol surge. Have you darkened your bedroom, etc.? How about a sleep mask to block out the early morning light? See

 

Tips to help sleep -- so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia 

 

Waking with panic or anxiety -- managing cortisol spikes

[DaveB]

41 minutes ago, Tom37 said:

Hang in there....you see people often get worse at times even months out from feeling better.....maybe the worst the wave the more healing that is happening. I know that doesn’t help you right now but healing is happening. You started to see improvements before you changed your dose so that will happen again but it may take longer to see them due to the changes and the effect that had on you.....keep fighting.

 

I will, thanks man. Positives: no more facial twitching, and my morning IBS is much better the last few days. Unfortunately this week the negatives are plenty!

[DaveB]

37 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

 

Are your symptoms in the morning better or worse since you moved Paxil to the morning? Or are they worse sometimes?

 

That "pain switch" event sounds like the early-morning cortisol surge. Have you darkened your bedroom, etc.? How about a sleep mask to block out the early morning light? See

 

Tips to help sleep -- so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia 

 

Waking with panic or anxiety -- managing cortisol spikes

 

Thanks Alto, it is good to know I am not the only one. Funny, cause when I wake at 4AM, I have zero anxiety, but then it kicks in at about 6AM. It has been much worse this week. If I hold long enough, will I eventually start to get better? My room is VERY dark which is good.

[Altostrata]

Read the topic and figure it out, please, Dave.

[Tom37]

Clearly I’m not alto but you will see improvements if you wait long enough. I can’t remember ever seeing anybody on here who hasn’t seen improvements. It’s just frustratingly slow and for the majority definitely not linear but that’s typical of neurological recovery.

[DaveB]

3 minutes ago, Tom37 said:

Clearly I’m not alto but you will see improvements if you wait long enough. I can’t remember ever seeing anybody on here who hasn’t seen improvements. It’s just frustratingly slow and for the majority definitely not linear but that’s typical of neurological recovery.

 

Great man, I really hope so! I worry I am still feeling the effects of my fast drops and that it may actually even get worse before it gets better, that really scares me! How are you doing?

[DaveB]

1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

 

Are your symptoms in the morning better or worse since you moved Paxil to the morning? Or are they worse sometimes?

 

Funny last week I would have said better in the mornings since the change, this week...way way worse.

[Tom37]

You may get worse but you may not but either way it will get better. 

 

Im going ok considering.....have definitely seen improvements in baseline symptoms but the waves knock the life out of you when they start then you settle in to them....hoping the further on I get the windows feel better and last longer. I’m just fortunate I don’t have any anxiety as a symptom.

[RachelSusan]

4 hours ago, DaveB said:

 

Not a great trajectory, kind of just keep getting worse unfortunately.

Well the cuts are cumulative, so it sort of makes sense.

 

 

5 hours ago, DaveB said:

Home front isn’t great, I haven’t been able to hide it from my wife the last couple of mornings and that has made it really bad. She just has no tolerance for it, which is why I often come here to vent my frustrations. I need to work on that, seems I have done it too much and it is frustrating the moderators. 

I've been lucky that I have a lot of support on the home front but even with the support I don't talk about it much. For the non withdrawal person it gets old very quickly. As for venting,  this is the place to do it, however the mods do read through everything we write so it is a lot of extra work for them when they are just trying to get the information and help us. I don't know if this would work for you but when I was venting I would write: JOURNAL ENTRY at the top the the page.  Maybe you could do that and then also when you want the mods to read your posting you could write something like: QUESTIONS or NEED HELP or MODS PLEASE READ. I did and still do the occasional JOURNAL ENTRY thing and then put down the thoughts from my wandering mind.  And other people here still respond but my hope is it saves the mods a few precious moments that they can use for the next person here. Don't know if it would work for you or for your mods but I thought I would share with you what I do.

 

I think we have all said it here and we all keep reminding you, no more changes.  It will only exacerbate your problem.

[ChessieCat]

You might also consider this:  Journalling - Therapeutic Writing & Health Benefits

 

That way it gets it out of your head.

[ChessieCat]

However, it is also important to learn to sit with your symptoms and not get emotionally involved with them.  They just are.

 

I think I've posted about this before.  There will be discomfort that we experience, even with a careful taper.  It is part of the process of getting off the drug and our brain adapting accordingly.  I've been tapering following SA's protocol and have had two long holds, one of 3 months at 50mg and one of 7 weeks at 20mg, but even with my careful taper there are times during the past 3+ years when my symptoms increase and I feel a greater level of discomfort.

 

I think I've posted this before too, but I really think you need to be practising this.  The more you do it the more second nature it becomes.

 

On 4/28/2017 at 4:03 AM, brassmonkey said:

 

AAF: Acknowledge, Accept, Float.  It's what you have to do when nothing else works, and can be a very powerful tool in coping with anxiety.  The neuroemotional anxiety many of us feel during WD is directly caused by the drugs and their chemical reactions in the brain.  Making it so there is nothing we can do about them.  They won't respond to other drugs, relaxation techniques and the like.  They do, however, react very well to being ignored.  That's the concept behind AAF.  Acknowledge, get to know the feeling involved, explore them.  Accept, These feelings are a part of you and they aren't going anywhere fast. Float, let the feeling float off as you get on with your life as best as you can.  It's a well documented fact that the more you feed in to anxiety the worse it gets.  What starts as generalized neuroemotinal anxiety can be easily blown into a full fledged panic attack just by thinking about it.

 

I often liken it to an unwanted house guest.  At first you talk to them, have conversations, communicate with them.  After a while you figure out that they aren't leaving and there is nothing you can do to get rid of them.  So you go on about your day, working around them until they get bored and leave.

 

It can take some practice, but AAF really does work.  I hope you give it a try.

 

 

[RusTW]

Dave try some neural plasticity exercises. Try to meditate in the morning during your anxiety. Seek out calmness at the end of your meditation visualize your self recovered how you would feel and see yourself that way.

Listening to calming music will help the racing thoughts and you'll Loop music instead of thoughts. Our brains are goal-seeking machines. Feed it with positive thoughts to reach positive goals.

[DaveB]

29 minutes ago, RachelSusan said:

I think we have all said it here and we all keep reminding you, no more changes.  It will only exacerbate your problem.

Ok, sounds good, no more changes, day really started to turn around for me at about 4PM, very typical for me at this point. Feeling MUCH better now.

[DaveB]

@ChessieCat - I have seen that AAF piece before, but a great reminder! Thanks a lot!

 

@RusTW - good advice and suggestions.

 

Later in the day now and I am feeling little to no anxiety. At this point I always wonder what the big deal was...and then tomorrow happens again.

[Gridley]

29 minutes ago, RachelSusan said:

For the non withdrawal person it gets old very quickly.

 

My wife is supportive, but what RachelSusan said is very true.  I don't complain to my wife any more about WD.  We get along much better

 

I don't know if it is feasible under your health care system, but a counselor to whom you could vent .(as eymen suggested) could be very helpful.

[ChessieCat]

1 hour ago, RusTW said:

Listening to calming music will help the racing thoughts and you'll Loop music instead of thoughts.

 

It's interesting that you mention this.  I've had looping thoughts lately and have been listening to kids songs when driving, and I'm now looping the songs instead of thoughts.  I didn't do it deliberately but I am finding it beneficial.  And I'm finding myself singing during the day which I haven't been able to do.   And learning new songs is also good for my memory.

[DaveB]

This morning has been much better than the previous few. Anxiety hit, but nowhere near as strong. Not shakey, IBS is minimal this morning, hopefully a sign of things to come.

[Altostrata]

I strongly suggest you address your habit of rumination with a psychotherapist, Dave. You keep asking the same questions over and over for reassurance, but you've apparently absorbed nothing.

 

This can be very trying for everyone around you, including the staff and probably your wife.

 

We want to know about significant changes in your symptom pattern, not every time a cloud crosses your path. Your symptoms will fluctuate. That is "normal" when one is recovering from going on and off drugs too fast.

 

Your constant complaining, crying wolf over "normal" withdrawal symptom patterns, may obscure what's important if you should experience a significant change. For example, I can't tell if the change in Paxil schedule did anything. First you complain it had no effect and now you complain it made your symptoms worse. I have no choice but to suggest you sit with it for a while and see what falls out..

 

We understand you're having a tough time with the early morning cortisol surge. You've gotten pointers to topics on the subject, yet you have not adopted any techniques to reduce it, preferring instead to "vent."

 

You are going to have to get serious about techniques like meditation, acceptance, and patience. Also, listening and appreciation of others' efforts. And stop the complaining habit.

[wildchild93]

On 2/15/2019 at 5:49 AM, DaveB said:

 

That is part of the problem, is I am waking earlier now with intense anxiety. Used to be 7-7:30, now it is about 6AM. Funny cause when I woke at 4AM last night,  I felt ZERO anxiety and went back to bed no problem, then 6AM hits and it is like someone flipped a “pain switch” in my body.

 

This often happens to me. I feel on the mornings when I have to wake up at 4:30 for work, I have little anxiety even though I haven't slept much. And when I actually do sleep and wake up closer to 8, I wake up with intense anxiety and feelings of dread. so so strange. I often feel like a toddler who has to take naps/siestas during the day and teach my brain how to fall asleep and wake up normally again. I swear something is off in the transition. Hopefully in the future, we will be better able to understand what is actually happening in the brain.

 

Edited February 15, 2019 by ChessieCat
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[Tom37]

See better days do happen which shows that it will not be like this forever.

 

The most important part of this I would think is accepting that it could take quite a while longer for you to see improvements and eventually stabilise. Easier said that done I know.

 

Have been reading brass monkeys thread again about ‘how long will it take’ and it seems a straight forward updose after tapering too fast typically can take several to 6 months before improvements are seen before then stabilising. Of course it could be shorter or longer but with your dose change history it could be longer. I only say this because I don’t want you to do anything out of desperation that could make things worse. Definitely not to scare you as I’m in the same boat and I totally understand the feeling of wanting to do ‘something’ to make it better. 

 

So keep hanging in there.

[DaveB]

2 hours ago, wildchild93 said:

 

This often happens to me. I feel on the mornings when I have to wake up at 4:30 for work, I have little anxiety even though I haven't slept much. And when I actually do sleep and wake up closer to 8, I wake up with intense anxiety and feelings of dread. so so strange.

 

To me two years ago, this would sound so weird, but believe me...I totally get it!

 

1 hour ago, Tom37 said:

See better days do happen which shows that it will not be like this forever.

 

The most important part of this I would think is accepting that it could take quite a while longer for you to see improvements and eventually stabilise. Easier said that done I know.

 

Have been reading brass monkeys thread again about ‘how long will it take’ and it seems a straight forward updose after tapering too fast typically can take several to 6 months before improvements are seen before then stabilising. Of course it could be shorter or longer but with your dose change history it could be longer. I only say this because I don’t want you to do anything out of desperation that could make things worse. Definitely not to scare you as I’m in the same boat and I totally understand the feeling of wanting to do ‘something’ to make it better. 

 

So keep hanging in there!

 

Yeah today is a day where I can “see the light” so to speak. Hopefully this will be a window that lasts for a bit. Amazing how much hope we can have when we just feel a little better, only to doubt it so hard when things get hard. I have seen you have for sure experienced this the same way. I have read the “how long will it take” and found it very informative, yet also kind of discouraging. Oh well, we will get there, even if it takes WAY longer than we would like. I will keep hanging in there, you do the same, let’s get through this together my friend!

[ChessieCat]

Have you read Altostrata's story.  There is a link to a video at the top of Post #1.  ☼-about-altostrata-withdrawal-syndrome-since-2004

[Tom37]

9 years.....unbelievable....wonder how much her heart condition set her back.

 

At least she is fully over wd. Just a shame about other health conditions that come with aging after going through what she did.

[DaveB]

22 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Have you read Altostrata's story.  There is a link to a video at the top of Post #1.  ☼-about-altostrata-withdrawal-syndrome-since-2004

 

Wow, what a story! Glad she is stable now!

[ChessieCat]

She does understand what we are going through and how extremely frustrating it can all be.  And of course it's a success story too.

 

And she has also done a lot of research to gather the information that is available to us on this site.

[JackieDecides]

3 hours ago, DaveB said:

Yeah today is a day where I can “see the light” so to speak. Hopefully this will be a window that lasts for a bit. Amazing how much hope we can have when we just feel a little better, only to doubt it so hard when things get hard.

 

that is just how it is. 

 

I'm so glad you are having a window. as time goes by, there will be more and more. 

[Finn25]

Thanks for checking on me in my intro. I've been reading through your thread and I sure hope you get some long windows soon. I can relate to your situation very well. I have a wife and elementary school age kids who need me to be functional. So when waves hit, I have the added guilt of making their lives difficult as well. But I've learned that the best thing to do is just hold on, and it will work itself out eventually. Not as fast as we want, but it does happen. So hang in there, man. Just try to think of all the really good times you'll have once you feel better.

[RachelSusan]

Dave,

Are you following other people on this website?  I don't mean going to their thread occasionally but signed up to get an e-mail notification every time they post on their page?  If not, I highly recommend it.  I would suggest that you pick a few people that are going off the same medication that you are, another few that you just like, and some that are ahead of you in the process. By doing this I learned a lot about this entire process of withdrawal and derived other benefits as well.  I do see that you post on other people's page but if you are not currently signed up to get alerts perhaps you may want to consider it.

As always, warm wishes and much support,

Rachel

[JackieDecides]

On 2/16/2019 at 8:35 AM, RachelSusan said:

I would suggest that you pick a few people that are going off the same medication that you are, another few that you just like, and some that are ahead of you in the process. By doing this I learned a lot about this entire process of withdrawal and derived other benefits as well.

 

at first I overwhelmed myself by following too many, but now I just try to keep it down to a few and it does help.

 

the excellent posts that give good advice I need to see over and over (like the Acknowledge, Accept and Float one, for example) because it just doesn't sink in the first few times. or maybe the first dozen times! there is SO much info here, you have to just digest what you can and keep coming back. 

[Tom37]

You hanging in there mate.....hopefully a break means your doing better.

[DaveB]

@Finn25 - yeah I am hoping to start seeing some improvements. Your story got me through some of the worse times early on, so I am really bummed to see you struggling again.

 

@RachelSusan - I don’t get emails, but I have been “following” those who I feel are similar to me or slightly ahead of me. @RusTW seems to be similar to me but a few months ahead, and has been a big help to me.

 

@JackieDecides - Yes AAF has become my new mantra!

 

@Tom37 - Just got caught up on your thread, don’t doubt it man, you are healing and have been getting better. Waves make it feel as bad as ever, but don’t buy their garbage that you won’t get there! I have been doing ok lately, just kind of managing, so things have for sure been better and manageable the past few days. Still have plenty of anxiety, and it can hit really hard at times, but isn’t that completely crushing anxiety.

 

Trying to not post about the bad times as honestly I must be really annoying when I do. The recent responses I have gotten to my posts lately has been a little discouraging in that it seems people have flat out lost patience with me. I need to do more just “journal entries” when talking about hard times.

[ChessieCat]

45 minutes ago, DaveB said:

Trying to not post about the bad times as honestly I must be really annoying when I do. The recent responses I have gotten to my posts lately has been a little discouraging in that it seems people have flat out lost patience with me. I need to do more just “journal entries” when talking about hard times.

The concern is that your constant focusing on and continued negative posting about your symptoms is not helpful and that you are "working against yourself".

 

Personally (ie not as a mod) as far as I'm concerned you are welcome to whinge and complain and continue to focus on your symptoms and how badly you feel until the cows come home.  It's no skin off my nose, or anyone else's.

 

But it is what it is and it's not going to make the time go any quicker.  In fact it will most probably feel like it is taking longer than it actually is.  Improvement is happening, albeit much slower than you would like.  For your own good it is better to accept your current situation and learn to sit with any discomfort.  Things are going to improve with time.  The choice you now have is how are you going to spend that time?

 

Use the image of waiting in a queue, the line gradually gets shorter.  When you are in a queue you can't make it move any quicker than it does.  You have no control over it.  All you can do is wait in the line.  How you wait is what is going to make a difference.  You can either be impatient and start getting irritable and think bad things and complain to the other people who might start swearing at you which makes you feel worse or you can try to be patient and calm and try and think of nice things and look at the things around you.  It's going to take the same amount of time for you to get to the head of the queue but you can either make the experience of waiting pleasant or unpleasant.

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by ChessieCat

[Tom37]

Try not to be discouraged Dave.

 

Everyone just wants you to get well and while in that process to try to make it as easy as possible for yourself.

 

I should take some of the advice as well if I’m being honest so it’s a work in progress for us all. 

[DaveB]

@ChessieCat - I love that analogy of waiting in a line and getting frustrated, that is very helpful!

 

@Tom37 - How you doing Tom? Wave still hanging around? I think I had a little bit of a dirty three day window, today feels a little more wavy. 

[Tom37]

Yeah still in this wave....nice and intense one too which has surprised me but I guess some serious things need fixing up there!

 

Glad you had a window....should get clearer in time.....just keep holding and then holding some more.