DaveB: trying to stop a roller coaster year

[DaveB]

@Tom37 @ChessieCat

 

Have a little bit of the flu the last couple of days. Chest congestion and body aches have made it tough to know what is anxiety and WD and what is from the illness. Body aches feeling a little better today...anxiety in a bit of a wave and feeling worse than the last few days.

[RachelSusan]

Dave,

Below is an old Bette Davis movie, long before any of our times, in fact Marilyn Monroe had a bit part in it before she became famous.  My point?  Well play the  clip.  I think it applies to all of us in withdrawal. Just keep telling yourself, you are having a bumpy ride, but it will end.  I think it's so true that I'll go ahead and post it on my page as well. I truly feel for you. Just hang in there. Also a gentle reminder, no drug changes. I know you are being good about it but I know how insidious drug withdrawal can be with our thinking.

 

[DaveB]

Great post and reminder. I know I need to just hold on, waves make it all very hard though don’t they?

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by ChessieCat
removed unnecessary quote

[DaveB]

I am just not getting better...I just don’t know what to do. Trying so hard to be positive saying, “this is healing, in time it will get better,” but I dread facing even one more day! Today it started off horrible and hasn’t gotten ANY better as the day has gone on, not even for a minute. Dreading so much tomorrow.

[Tom37]

Unfortunately not much we can do other than self care and learning better ways to cope. It’s all about time, time and more time. 

 

Better days will come even though it’s hard to believe. Keep hanging in there.

[Altostrata]

Quote

 

September 4th - September 27th: Paxil 30mgs, Zyprexa 2.5mgs

September 28th - November 7th: Paxil 20mgs, Zyprexa 2.5mgs

November 7th - Now: Paxil 10mgs, Zyprexa 2.5mgs

 

 

In more than 40 pages of this topic, we have warned over and over what happens when you make dramatic drug changes and you went and made them anyway. Plus, you've been messing with Paxil, which is notoriously difficult to go off.

 

For about 4 months, you have been dealing with waves and windows from your reduction of Paxil from 30mg to 10mg. Despite fairly frequent windows, which you grudgingly acknowledge, but they're never good enough. This last 4 months has been almost non-stop complaining.

 

DaveB, you are not exempt from Paxil withdrawal syndrome. It can take a lot longer than 4 months for it to settle down. As ChessieCat observed in her brilliant post, complaining is not going to move you to the front of the queue, no matter how strongly you believe you belong there. It is this note of entitlement that is so grating.

 

Perhaps you should find things to be grateful for, such as that your withdrawal syndrome is not worse, you have windows, and despite still being wobbly from reducing Paxil too fast, you are functional.

[ChessieCat]

On 2/22/2019 at 3:39 PM, DaveB said:

I am just not getting better...I just don’t know what to do.

 

This was posted 11 days ago:

 

On 2/11/2019 at 10:15 AM, ChessieCat said:

If you find yourself getting down about how long things are taking, you could go back through your daily symptom notes and highlight  when you have felt better.  You could even extract them and put them in a list separate from the worse times so that you will have it to hand.  And add the amount of time too that you felt better each day, which will give you a positive list to refer to and you won't have the negative interwoven with it.

 

[Rosetta]

Oh, Dave, I know this is so hard.  You might remember when I was yo-yo-ing, and I felt what you are feeling.  No window was ever enough relief, no moment was without some symptoms, every morning was the same horrible anxiety day after day.  I didn't want to go to bed.  I wanted evenings to last forever.  It will pass eventually.  You will get over this.

 

You really are doing quite well, Dave, although to you it seems that you aren't.  I'm so impressed with all you do.  I tried to go skiing last week, and I had a couple of good hours.  It was great!!  I had thought of you going with your kids, and how jealous I felt that you could do that.  Then, I was able to go, too.  The fact that you are more functional than I am is hard for me.  What I mean to say is you don't feel well, but you are trying so hard -- going to work, playing with your kids, getting up every morning despite the anxiety.  You should be so proud of yourself.  

 

I often have to look at my life from that perspective -- I'm getting the important stuff done.  I'm there for my kid.  I'm soldiering through this part, and when a window comes maybe I can go beyond the minimum for a bit.  We went to Brian Head.  It was soooo cold!  It snowed and snowed.  This was fantastic because my kid had not seen snow since she was 2, and she didn't remember it.  She was amazed.  She learned to ski.  I went beyond the minimum, and it gives me such hope for the future.

 

Sometimes you inspire other people.  I waited until the last minute to book my condo, but I saw that you went skiing as bad as you feel, and I thought I had to try.  I'm really glad that I went.  

 

I hope you feel better soon.

 

--Rosetta

 

 

[Gracee]

@DaveB Has your cognitive function become so disabled that you are unable to grasp what mods here are telling you?   You have had good days and good experiences,  let those times empower you to have more.  

[DaveB]

@Rosetta - yes I remember your yo-yoing very well! So good to see your inprovements. Skiing?!?! Good job!! Just got back myself from taking my kids, I also went night skiing with my oldest last night, he is 11 and I can barely keep up with him as he cruises down the black diamonds!

[ChessieCat]

^ Just got back myself from taking my kids, I also went night skiing with my oldest last night

 

 

Putting this here and highlighting it for you to look back on (this the sort of thing I have suggested that you do and write/type up a "what I have managed to do/times I felt improvement).  For two reasons.

 

1. You managed to do it
2. You haven't mentioned having any issues, in fact it sounds like you enjoyed it and had a good time

You are doing much better than your are realising.  This only on posted:  Posted Friday at 03:39 PM

 

On 2/22/2019 at 3:39 PM, DaveB said:

I am just not getting better

[Rosetta]

Black diamonds, wow.  You are doing great, Dave.  If your coordination is that good and your muscles that strong, you are so far ahead of the curve.  What an odd syndrome!!  Here I am thinking everyone is wobbly the way I am.  It just goes to show how differently this affects everyone.  So random and inconsistent.  Once in a while I don't blame the doctors so much for misunderstanding because their patients must present with such different symptoms.  Attributing them to other illnesses must seem so appropriate.

 

You really have mostly emotional/mental symptoms, don't you?  I'm starting to go in that direction, obviously, given that I skied.  The emotional stuff is still so much stronger than it ever was before I took that God-forsaken "medicine."

 

I know when a wave hits it feels as if I have been there forever and will be there forever.  It is such a horrible trick of the mind.  There is some malfunction during WD that is really the cruelest and most dangerous part of this syndrome.  It takes all my strength and willpower to remind myself that it is a trick, a serious malfunction and that it will pass.  When it passes I am dumbfounded once again at how strong the feeling was that my life was not worth living.  Ah, someday that will never happen again!!! 

-Rosetta

[DaveB]

So...it is probably time I updated everyone, hopefully I will still be able to find some support here even though I made a decision contrary to what was being suggested. I have been doing very well the last 4 days...but I started to take some Klonopin. I am not proud of it, but I needed to function in the mornings, and my morning anxiety was just crushing. I split a .5mg tablet in half and take half when I go to sleep and half when I wake and it has been a very beneficial change.

 

I also discontinued the Paxil. I know this could end up biting me in the end, but I was just at a point with Paxil that I had an adverse reaction from the very 1st dose, and just kept upping it on doctors orders, then staying on it in hopes to stabilize. I honestly think even though it may have been keeping some withdrawals at bay, the adverse reaction may have been doing more harm than good. When I went through my daily notes that Alto suggested, I noticed that I usually felt worse after I took it, rather than the other way around. So I took a risk, and hopefully the Zyprexa and Klonopin and keep the withdrawals from being too over stimulating. Interestingly I have felt anything yet, no lightheadedness or brain zaps, I would sometimes get those if I even missed a single dose so that is peculiar.

 

So I know everyone will disagree with what I did, but it is what it is and I feel much better as of now, and that is what I am choosing to focus on for now. Hopefully you will all understand and I can still find some support here! I truly love you all and value your friendships and hope I can still continue my journey to become med free here.

[Aquarius]

I totally understand i was 10 months fast taper from Sertraline and ended up on 15mg of Mirtazapine....

[JoshD]

@DaveB I'm not trying to doom you but only to try to share information but by making that big jump you might be stretching your symptoms out and making them worse.  I was on paxil 40mg for 10 years and i stopped taking them within a month by the doctors orders.  I can tell you personally that it's been incredibly challenging for me. I'm now 6 years out and wish i would've been like the others on this forum and done a slower taper.  I can't say for sure but i betting the lows of withdrawal would've been more manageable if i did.  Just something to think about. 

 

As much as i hate to say it, withdrawal is tough and i don't think there's anyway of getting around it.  I wish you the best and I pray for a speedy recovery/healing.  

[ChessieCat]

Please update your drug signature.  Please add the testosterone and dates:  Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature

[mdwstrx]

Hi Dave, 

I've been following a bit after seeing your posts on another thread. Before finding this website, I tapered to and stopped Lexapro 2.5 mg under dr.s orders  for 5 days and quickly reinstated 2.5 mg when I felt something was wrong.  I've been in a horrible withdraw for 3 months that is just now starting to lift - with prompt reinstatement.  None of us are exactly alike BUT... in my opinion, the term "incredibly challenging" noted above seems to be understated.   Years and years of painful recovery IF you can tolerate it.  Please reconsider your decision with help of Alto and the mods on this site.  Alto and her team are knowledgeable and care a great deal for people like us.  They truly have your best interests in mind.  If you haven't done so, read the heartbreaking stories of those who cold turkeyed.  BrassMonkey makes mention of his friends on Paxil Progress who cold turkeyed.  He has successfully tapered and is enjoying life after 5 years while they ct'd and are still in major withdraw.  

 

I too am praying for your recovery/healing and wisdom in this matter.  🙏

 

[Altostrata]

Good luck, Dave. Nobody can tell the future, maybe you'll be fine. I hope this works out for you.

 

After more than 40 pages of your not taking our advice, I hope you'll understand why the staff won't be responding often to your posts.

 

If you have complaints from this point, you can only blame yourself. We don't know any way to fix cold turkey from Paxil.

 

The other members are free to respond to your posts, of course.

 

PS Taken regularly, Ativan is truly addictive and will require careful tapering. If you think Paxil withdrawal syndrome is hard, you won't want to add benzo withdrawal syndrome to it, I promise you.

[DaveB]

Thanks guys, I know it is a big risk, but I needed to change something. I couldn’t continue having the mornings I was having. A benzo is clearly not a perfect solution, it is a very messy one, but it was a risk I felt I had to take at this point. Hopefully you all can understand and still welcome me on this site.

[DaveB]

9 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

After more than 40 pages of your not taking our advice, I hope you'll understand why the staff won't be responding often to your posts.

 

PS Taken regularly, Ativan is truly addictive and will require careful tapering. If you think Paxil withdrawal syndrome is hard, you won't want to add benzo withdrawal syndrome to it, I promise you.

 

Yes I totally understand, I actually think I will probably be on Klonopin for a good 6-12 months to calm the nervous system and see if I can VERY slowly taper from there. Thanks for all you do, I really appreciate it!

[Rosetta]

Dave, please don't do this.  Did a doctor tell you to add the benzo?  That must be true because you have to have a prescription.  I understand that you are suffering, but I guess you don't agree that you will suffer more and for longer this way.  After what I have been through can't you see that a CT is very dangerous?  

 

You moved the Paxil to the morning, correct?  We all feel worse in the morning.  I think you are assuming the Paxil is making the morning worse when the fast reduction in Paxil has made your mornings worse instead.  

 

Please do not get addicted to the benzo.

[RachelSusan]

Dave,

I don't agree with you but I support you in this awful journey of withdrawal you find yourself on.  And you never know,  you may be right for you, we can't predict the future. I wish only the best for you.  Thank you for sharing with us rather than just disappearing. That takes courage.  I personally appreciate you looping us in.  Even though you are changing how you choose to treat your withdrawal you are still one of us, you are still suffering. Please keep us posted and let us know how it goes for you.

Warmest of wishes,

Rachel

[ChessieCat]

I suggest you use the Drug Interactions Checker

[Gracee]

7 hours ago, DaveB said:

 

Yes I totally understand, I actually think I will probably be on Klonopin for a good 6-12 months to calm the nervous system and see if I can VERY slowly taper from there. Thanks for all you do, I really appreciate it!

 

 You WILL become severely addicted to benzos with this schedule.   If you think you can VERY slowly taper from 6-12 months of regular Klonopin drugging,  you are kidding yourself and maybe killing yourself.   I spend several hours a week with recovering alcoholics/addicts.  If your life is hell now, you ain't seen nothin' yet.  Maybe sit in on a few NA meetings for view of what's in store.

[Shep]

14 hours ago, DaveB said:

Yes I totally understand, I actually think I will probably be on Klonopin for a good 6-12 months to calm the nervous system and see if I can VERY slowly taper from there.

 

Benzos only work for 2 - 4 weeks and then we stay on them to stave off withdrawal. Dependency for benzos starts in as little as 2 weeks. 

 

ChessieCat pointed you in the direction of the drug interaction checker.  There's a MAJOR drug interaction between Klonopin and Zyprexa - Drug Interaction Checker - Zyprexa and Klonopin.

 

From the thread What will get you warned or banned: 

 

On 6/15/2011 at 2:45 PM, Altostrata said:

- Asking for support for many self-generated emergencies. While we are sympathetic to people in distress, we're only a peer support site and we cannot do anything for people who are in the habit of self-harming in any way, be it via alcohol, risky or antisocial behavior, avoidable hospitalizations, irresponsible use of drugs, avoidable accidents, fights, or threats of suicide.
 
We have seen that going on and off additional psychiatric drugs can worsen adverse effects, including withdrawal symptoms. If you add drugs and have an adverse effect, you will need to discuss it with the prescribing doctor -- we won't be able to help you. (If you feel you need continued drug treatment, your needs may be better met on forums such as depressionforums.org  or patientslikeme.com.)

 

We don't have enough staff in the benzo forum to deal with members who ignore tapering advice for antidepressants, go cold turkey, and then go onto a benzo. 

 

You will need to work with your doctor. 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Shep
fixed link

[bheb]

Just wanted to chime in, of course do what’s best for you, but my doctor put me on benzo for akathisia and I completely regret it.

 

When she gave it to me, I had only popped on SA a couple times and foolishly thought that my problem was with Prozac not benzos, and that I would be fine. 

 

Trust me, the akathisia made me absolutely desperate for relief but not only was it practically useless but it gave me awful benzo withdrawal on top of the akathisia I was already dealing with. 

 

As shep mentioned, if it works, it will only work for a couple weeks max. And at least in my experience, it did little to give me relief and then I had to deal with more symptoms I didn’t have before like mental terror.

[JoshD]

HI Dave,

 

I hate to say it but the reality is I think the others are right.  Taking benzo's will make your withdrawal MUCH more uncomfortable and since you're already having a hard time now i'd hate to see you do that.  I feel for you man.  For you and your family.  I wish you the best 🙏

[DaveB]

So I have gotten a lot of backlash on this, even some warnings from the mods. My honest question is what would you have me do at this point? I simply could no longer function in my mornings continuing to hold at 10mgs of Paxil and 2.5mgs of Zyprexa. I had to make a change for my career and my marriage. So I have made this change, I am taking a half a .5mg Klonopin at night and then the other half at about 5:30 when I wake. This has helped, I am more functional and the morning anxiety has died down. I didn’t want to be on THREE medications and I truly felt the Paxil was do as much harm in terms of adverse reaction and good in terms of staving off withdrawals. So I decided I would get rid of the activating drug and stay on the “brakes” medications until my nervous system stabilizes and calms down. At that point I can start the process of weaning off the Benzo and Zyprexa. 

 

That is is my plan, and I get EVERYONE hates it, so I am all ears as to an alternative that lets me function and work towards a better future. Please no more apocalyptic projections for my future, there are PLENTY of people who take a daily benzo for a while that is doesn’t stop helping for anxiety after 2-4 weeks, and are able to slowly wean off, just like anything else.

[eymen23]

27 minutes ago, DaveB said:

 Please no more apocalyptic projections for my future, there are PLENTY of people who take a daily benzo for a while that is doesn’t stop helping for anxiety after 2-4 weeks, and are able to slowly wean off, just like anything else.

 

Dave,

 

You are entitled to make your own decisions and if you truly believe that you have done the right thing for the sake of you and your family, then I don’t think anybody here is going to tell you otherwise.

 

On the other hand, please respect that this is a site for those attempting to safely taper off psychiatric drugs. You can not expect a standing ovation from everybody here for continuously ignoring our guidance and then giving us a blow by blow account of how awful you feel. 

 

Your intro topic now covers 43 pages and you haven’t followed any of the guidance provided by the moderators here. We are unpaid volunteers, so please tell me Dave, why should we take the time out of our busy schedules to convince you that your new regimen is likely to make you feel worse, especially when you are so confident in your decision? Why should we do that when there are so many other members here who desperately want our advice and guidance, and are willing to follow it? 

 

If you are so confident about your new change, confident enough that you made it without consulting anybody here, then I hope you’re going to stick by your decision and bear any potential consequences. We will not be the ‘Plan B’ in this situation.

Edited February 26, 2019 by eymen23

[DaveB]

9 minutes ago, eymen23 said:

 

Dave,

 

You are entitled to make your own decisions and if you truly believe that you have done the right thing for the sake of you and your family, then I don’t think anybody here is going to tell you otherwise.

 

On the other hand, please respect that this is a site for those attempting to safely taper off psychiatric drugs. You can not expect a standing ovation from everybody here for continuously ignoring our guidance and then giving us a blow by blow account of how awful you feel. 

 

Your intro topic now covers 43 pages and you haven’t followed any of the guidance provided by the moderators here. We are unpaid volunteers, so please tell me Dave, why should we take the time out of our busy schedules to convince you that your new regimen is likely to make you feel worse, especially when you are so confident in your decision? Why should we do that when there are so many other members here who desperately want our advice and guidance, and are willing to follow it? 

 

If you are so confident about your new change, confident enough that you made it without consulting anybody here, then I hope you’re going to stick by your decision and bear any potential consequences. We will not be the ‘Plan B’ in this situation.

 

That isn’t fair to say I haven’t heeded any advice. I held from November of 2017 until September of 2018 at 40mgs of Paxil and 2.5mgs of Zyprexa. It wasn’t until that was clearly not working that I started doing other things than recommended. Believe me, the last thing I wanted to do was start a benzo, but if it will help to get through whatever has happened to me, that was a shot I had to take. I need to be more functional than I have been for the last 2 years, if that means more meds than unfortunately, so be it.

[Gracee]

OK Dave.   Remember the benzo route is the one YOU are choosing.

 

Benzo dependence/addiction will be your best friend until it turns on you, which it surely will in time.  Then, it will become your worst enemy.

 

Are you planning on coming back to SA begging for help again when that happens?  Or will you get honest with yourself and take appropriate action?

 

I promise I won't post on your thread again and wish you the best.

HUGS,

G.

 

[powerback]

What a nightmare for you dave ,I did a switch myself out of desperation and it didn't work .

the pressure you feel must be immense on you with your career and family commitments  ,is there any chance you could take a career break ,you could be driving yourself into the ground with pressure and stress.

You'll be in my thoughts ,dam what a nightmare hey .

Take care.

[ChessieCat]

If you don't already know, Shep is a benzo mod and is very knowledgeable about all psychiatric drugs.  From the very first post she made in 2014:

 

On 11/28/2014 at 12:49 AM, Shep said:

Been on over 30 types of pysch drugs. Started off on older AD's, AP's, benzos, and lithium and moved onto SSRI's, mood stabilizers and atypical AP's.

 

Klonopin withdrawal is very hard and I think I hit tolerance after coming off an AD last year.

 

Taking drugs which are "brakes" can end up working the opposite, because the brain and nervous system may begin to fight against the sedation.  This might affect a person being able to go to sleep and/or stay asleep because the brain is trying to keep you alive and it doesn't want you to become unconscious.  The term used is paradoxical.  From wiki:  A paradoxical reaction or paradoxical effect is an effect of medical treatment, usually a drug, opposite to the effect which would normally be expected.  Have you seen the issues that Tanha is having being on too many brakes?

 

From what I have seen happen to members here at SA, there is a high chance that if/when things worsen, that the doctor will increase the dose of Klonopin and/or add in another drug.  It's called the drug merry go round.  Adding in drugs to try to fix the issues which is caused by the other drugs.

 

Have you ever visited BenzoBuddies?  Have you read any of the members' stories in SA's Benzo forum?

 

And my comments here are only about the adding in of Klonopin.  I'm not going to repeat what we've already informed you about cold turkeying Paxil.

[Kristine]

Hi Dave, Firstly I am so very sorry for all you are going through. I understand your desperation to ease your symptoms. However, from personal experience, I would recommend you do not go down the clonazepam path. Even though 0.5mg of clonazepam seems like a small dose it is the equivalent of taking 10mg of Valium. My own battle of withdrawing from clonazapam has been horrendous, as I reached tolerance and then suffered a paradoxical reaction. You can read about some of my experiences in my benzo thread. I ended up switching to Valium and tapered from 10mg to 5mg. I remain in a pickle and now my sleep and anxiety  is worsening again. My symptoms are vast and both physical and mental and so debilitating, I am barely functional. It has effected all aspects of my life. The benzo aspect is only part of my story...many CTs from various antidepressants and antipsychotic’s have only worsened my symptoms over the years. The major drug interaction between olanzapine (I have also taken olanzapine in the past) and clonazepam is also a red flag. Whoever prescribed the clonazepam was negligent in not recognising or caring about this interaction and the harm it could cause you. I have also been in the position of being prescribed medications with a major drug interaction and as a result was forced to rapidly withdraw/reduce from these...I had no choice but have had to deal with the aftermath. I am practically house and bed bound. 

 

I have only written the above out of concern for your well being, it is not to scare you. Please believe this. I understand it is not what you want to hear.  If the the only benefit from my own suffering is to help others, that is enough for me. 

 

Much Love. K xo

 

 

[DaveB]

Wow, let me just say how overwhelmed I am by the support and advice I have gotten. I don’t know what is best for me and my family, so far this new path has been promising, but WOW are you guys awesome! I at least know I am not alone and am cared about. Hopefully the mods can stop giving me warnings cause I am REALLY wanting to stay and be in this community with all you amazing, supportive, brave people!

[bheb]

3 hours ago, DaveB said:

That is is my plan, and I get EVERYONE hates it, so I am all ears as to an alternative that lets me function and work towards a better future. Please no more apocalyptic projections for my future, there are PLENTY of people who take a daily benzo for a while that is doesn’t stop helping for anxiety after 2-4 weeks, and are able to slowly wean off, just like anything else.

 

Hey Dave,

 

Sorry, really wasn’t trying to give apocalyptic predictions. I do completely understand your desperation. I have been there and I am still there unfortunately. Akathisia makes it impossible to function like normal people, to be sedentary & productive. I do think there are other ways (probably less dangerous drugs/supplements if you must — but I won’t suggest anything here) , just sharing that I also took a benzo when Prozac turned on me my sophomore year of college, when I was alone and completely uprooted, struggling to keep up with everyone and everything around me. To be fair, I DID survive the benzo withdrawal but it was at least 5 months of fear and terror. And maybe if you’re more careful than I was, you’ll be okay. My doctor also gave me propranolol at the same time as the benzo for akathisia, but that also has its own risks (depression, heart problems). And it didn’t help enough for me to stay on it.

 

So this is all to say that I understand the urge to improve things and keep yourself afloat for your future and family. I am sorry for your position. I wish I could give you a suggestion for something to make it easier, but I can’t really — just wanted to say that the benzo for me wasn’t worth the suffering that came with it later on. That’s all. Good luck to you.