DaveB: trying to stop a roller coaster year

[DaveB]

Is it possible I am experiencing a form of serotonin toxicity and that is why I am not stabilizing? I just looked over the symptoms of this, is it possible my dose of Paxil is simply too high and I will never stabilize on it? 

[Hazel]

Hi Dave,

I read through your intro and can relate quite a bit to what you have been going through.  I was also on Zoloft for many years and tried multiple times to get off of it.  In October of 2016 I was switched from Zoloft to Lexapro for 10 weeks and felt so much worse.  I was then switched to Paxil, which was better but still not good.  I finally had enough and decided to come off the Paxil, but of course too quickly per the doctor’s orders.

Luckily I found this site and went up to 10 mg and started a slow taper.  I made a lot of mistakes in the beginning including trying to switch to Prozac unsuccessfully.  After a lot of ups and downs I am now holding and hope to stabilize soon.  I also often wonder if I will ever really stabilize on Paxil.  I have to believe I will eventually if I just hold long enough.  It’s hard to be patient when we are experiencing so many awful symptoms.  Hang in there.  It sounds like you are improving and that is a great sign.

Hazel

[brassmonkey]

You can't dwell on the hour by hour, day by day fluctuations in your symptoms to determine if you are stabilizing or not.  As I mentioned before, stabilization is likely going to take many month to happen and is a slow process of settling into a steady state of just feeling bad without any large changes for better or worse.  Watching your symptoms on a short term basis and being upset and disheartened because yesterday was good but today is c*** is a sure way to plunge yourself into an emotional spiral that will only make matters worse.  You made a lot of changes at very high doses in a short period of time, it's going to take a while for your brain to sort things out.

[Rosetta]

Hey, Dave,

 

Thinking of you.  I know this is really hard.  I think Brassmonkey is right, but it's easier said than done.  I'm not sure you would have had a good day if you had serotonin toxicity?  That's not a professional opinion, of course, but it's logical.  Hang in there!

 

I'm going to check this link by AliG out:  http://www.mindfulmuscle.com/5-top-guided-meditations/

 

Rosetta

[DaveB]

On 2/1/2018 at 8:06 PM, brassmonkey said:

You can't dwell on the hour by hour, day by day fluctuations in your symptoms to determine if you are stabilizing or not.  As I mentioned before, stabilization is likely going to take many month to happen and is a slow process of settling into a steady state of just feeling bad without any large changes for better or worse.  Watching your symptoms on a short term basis and being upset and disheartened because yesterday was good but today is c*** is a sure way to plunge yourself into an emotional spiral that will only make matters worse.  You made a lot of changes at very high doses in a short period of time, it's going to take a while for your brain to sort things out.

 

Yes I guess that still what is so hard for me, the LARGE changes. I am back to having pretty good nights the last two days so getting some relief has been good, but boy am I really up and down throughout the day. Anxiety comes in waves, I am doing the best I possibly can to accept it as it is, and let my body vibrate with whatever nervous energy and symptoms come, but sometimes they are just SO strong, they kind of swamp me. 

[DaveB]

On 2/1/2018 at 8:06 PM, brassmonkey said:

You can't dwell on the hour by hour, day by day fluctuations in your symptoms to determine if you are stabilizing or not.  As I mentioned before, stabilization is likely going to take many month to happen and is a slow process of settling into a steady state of just feeling bad without any large changes for better or worse.  Watching your symptoms on a short term basis and being upset and disheartened because yesterday was good but today is c*** is a sure way to plunge yourself into an emotional spiral that will only make matters worse.  You made a lot of changes at very high doses in a short period of time, it's going to take a while for your brain to sort things out.

 

Also, i have been keeping a daily journal of how I am doing and symptoms on a daily basis, do you think this is detrimental? Does this cause me to focus on it too much in your opinion?

 

18 hours ago, Rosetta said:

Hey, Dave,

 

Thinking of you.  I know this is really hard.  I think Brassmonkey is right, but it's easier said than done.  I'm not sure you would have had a good day if you had serotonin toxicity?  That's not a professional opinion, of course, but it's logical.  Hang in there!

 

I'm going to check this link by AliG out:  http://www.mindfulmuscle.com/5-top-guided-meditations/

 

Rosetta

 

Thanks Rosetta, you are right I am sure. If I was suffering from serotonin toxicity, I very much doubt I would be having some pretty decent windows. 

[Dalalea]

37 minutes ago, DaveB said:

i have been keeping a daily journal of how I am doing and symptoms on a daily basis, do you think this is detrimental? Does this cause me to focus on it too much in your opinion?

Sometimes I wonder about this, also, but without my checklist, I don’t think I would recognize the little improvements that are being made. Making a line graph at the end of January showed me some things I hadn’t remembered. I think everyone is different and what might work for one person might not work for another. If the journal seems like a good idea to you, I would use it. 

[DaveB]

1 hour ago, Dalalea said:

Sometimes I wonder about this, also, but without my checklist, I don’t think I would recognize the little improvements that are being made. Making a line graph at the end of January showed me some things I hadn’t remembered. I think everyone is different and what might work for one person might not work for another. If the journal seems like a good idea to you, I would use it. 

Exactly, I like to be able and go back when I am in a wave and say "Hey, well look at that, a week ago I was doing really well and there is no reason that feeling that way will not return."

 

[RachelSusan]

Journals are good. I keep an excel spreadsheet.  I do this both so I can see my progress and if any of the mods ask about history I can respond.  I think anything that keeps track of information is good.  Whatever works best for you.

[DaveB]

3 minutes ago, RachelSusan said:

Journals are good. I keep an excel spreadsheet.  I do this both so I can see my progress and if any of the mods ask about history I can respond.  I think anything that keeps track of information is good.  Whatever works best for you.

 

Good to know I am not the only one, how are you doing Rachel? Have you done with your surgery? Looks like you were very stable before it, so hopefully it won't cause you any issues. 

[DaveB]

Seriously though, anyone with any ideas or theories about my recent wave? I am starting to do better at nights again (last 2 nights) so hopefully I am pulling out of it. Can a physical illness cause a wave? Was I just due for a wave? Tylenol and Advil was all I took, any possible way they could be the culprits? I actually felt pretty good anxiety wise during my sickness, and I wasn't until I started to get OVER my sickness that I really got slammed. 

[DaveB]

On 2/1/2018 at 8:06 PM, brassmonkey said:

You can't dwell on the hour by hour, day by day fluctuations in your symptoms to determine if you are stabilizing or not.  As I mentioned before, stabilization is likely going to take many month to happen and is a slow process of settling into a steady state of just feeling bad without any large changes for better or worse.  Watching your symptoms on a short term basis and being upset and disheartened because yesterday was good but today is c*** is a sure way to plunge yourself into an emotional spiral that will only make matters worse.  You made a lot of changes at very high doses in a short period of time, it's going to take a while for your brain to sort things out.

 

It has been about a month since I made all those changes, should I be noticing more stability at this point or is my progress pretty typical? I am still VERY much up and down. 

[brassmonkey]

I've pointed out several times that it is going to take several months for anything to start to happen.  It is very typical to be all over the place while waiting to stabilize.  Your body is in a highly sensitive state right now, so anything can set off a wave of symptoms, and that is going to be the norm for quite a while.

[DaveB]

31 minutes ago, brassmonkey said:

I've pointed out several times that it is going to take several months for anything to start to happen.  It is very typical to be all over the place while waiting to stabilize.  Your body is in a highly sensitive state right now, so anything can set off a wave of symptoms, and that is going to be the norm for quite a while.

 

Sounds good, thanks brassmonkey. You are a great guy and I have appreciated all of your advice and guidance. 

[Rosetta]

I understand your frustration.  My thread would have said the same things as yours if I had been posting here last September -- well, no, probably it would have been hysterical.  I was a wreck -- so much so I couldn't face creating an account.  

 

I'm relieved you have not had a reaction to reinstatement.  You have hope that you are going to stabilize, and that's what you need right now.  I stabilized without reinstatement.  So, I know you will.  I'm doing ok.  So, I know you will.  I'm impatient to be DONE!  So. . . . you know what I'm going to say.

 

Hang in there.  Can you read?  Can you lose yourself in a book or a series?  That helped me through.

 

R

[DaveB]

6 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

I understand your frustration.  My thread would have said the same things as yours if I had been posting here last September -- well, no, probably it would have been hysterical.  I was a wreck -- so much so I couldn't face creating an account.  

 

I'm relieved you have not had a reaction to reinstatement.  You have hope that you are going to stabilize, and that's what you need right now.  I stabilized without reinstatement.  So, I know you will.  I'm doing ok.  So, I know you will.  I'm impatient to be DONE!  So. . . . you know what I'm going to say.

 

Hang in there.  Can you read?  Can you lose yourself in a book or a series?  That helped me through.

 

R

 

Thanks again Rosetta, I can read am currently reading hope and health for your nerves, and it has really been great. When the anxiety is bad though "acceptance" feels like it is impossible. I have been getting pretty decent windows at night the last two nights, hoping that continues today!

[Rosetta]

Yeah.  The neuro emotions don't allow acceptance.  Only distraction works.  

 

This is so so painful!! Let me give you a glimpse of your future, and it's closer than you think: When it's over you will have moments during which you are so grateful for normal, boring, easy days.  Most people cannot see that difference.  They can't appreciate the lack of crippling anxiety.  They are intensely unhappy with boredom.  I'm home alone.  I just couldn't go out so my husband and child went without me.  I'm so very sad to miss the day with them, but I'm also reminding myself to be happy that I can just BE.  I was upset when they left because I wanted to go, but I did not want to push through the anxiety to get ready.  After they left, I started getting upset.  I was ready to cry.  I was thinking how terrible it is that this happened to me, but then I thought, "No, you need this time alone. It's a privilege to have it.  Read your book.  Listen to the kids playing at the neighbor's.  Have some water -- stay hydrated.  Be happy you are still here even if you can't do what you want to do.  You aren't crying for no reason, uncontrollably.  You aren't intensely anxious wishing you could cry, but you can't.  You are having a normal emotion!!  That is progress.  There will be more progress.  This is proof."

 

Your easier evenings are proof!  I know you are tired by then, and it's hard to enjoy the relief, but one of these days you wil notice that you aren't too tired to enjoy it.  You will start to enjoy food, and you will start to smile or laugh spontaneously.  It is going to be magical.  It's a magic that many people can't enjoy because they take it for granted.  You will feel it in a different way, and that might be some sort of bizarre gift.  After all, life is pretty boring.  It can be a slog.  Maybe it won't feel like a slog for you --- all because of an ignorant doctor's incompetence? (FYI -. I was NEVER a silver lining person before SSRIs.  Sometimes, I worry I'll slowly drift back to being a curmudgeon once the immediacy of this Hell is too far in my past.)

 

Rosetta

[DaveB]

10 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

Yeah.  The neuro emotions don't allow acceptance.  Only distraction works.  

 

This is so so painful!! Let me give you a glimpse of your future, and it's closer than you think: When it's over you will have moments during which you are so grateful for normal, boring, easy days.  Most people cannot see that difference.  They can't appreciate the lack of crippling anxiety.  They are intensely unhappy with boredom.  I'm home alone.  I just couldn't go out so my husband and child went without me.  I'm so very sad to miss the day with them, but I'm also reminding myself to be happy that I can just BE.  I was upset when they left because I wanted to go, but I did not want to push through the anxiety to get ready.  After they left, I started getting upset.  I was ready to cry.  I was thinking how terrible it is that this happened to me, but then I thought, "No, you need this time alone. It's a privilege to have it.  Read your book.  Listen to the kids playing at the neighbor's.  Have some water -- stay hydrated.  Be happy you are still here even if you can't do what you want to do.  You aren't crying for no reason, uncontrollably.  You aren't intensely anxious wishing you could cry, but you can't.  You are having a normal emotion!!  That is progress.  There will be more progress.  This is proof."

 

Your easier evenings are proof!  I know you are tired by then, and it's hard to enjoy the relief, but one of these days you wil notice that you aren't too tired to enjoy it.  You will start to enjoy food, and you will start to smile or laugh spontaneously.  It is going to be magical.  It's a magic that many people can't enjoy because they take it for granted.  You will feel it in a different way, and that might be some sort of bizarre gift.  After all, life is pretty boring.  It can be a slog.  Maybe it won't feel like a slog for you --- all because of an ignorant doctor's incompetence? (FYI -. I was NEVER a silver lining person before SSRIs.  Sometimes, I worry I'll slowly drift back to being a curmudgeon once the immediacy of this Hell is too far in my past.)

 

Rosetta

 

I get what you mean, I am still in the phase where I almost don't dare be home alone with my thoughts, it just causes anxiety and I still don't "enjoy" anything. The anxiety is almost too much, so I would have gone with my family, not because I would have fun, but out of fear of "what would I do by myself?" Does that make any sense? Normal, boring, easy days are my worst because I have more time to think and therefore the anxiety is stronger. I used to enjoy nothing more than a lazy day at home with the family, now the thought of it fills me with anxiety. 

[nz11]

Dave are you interested in telling the Scottish govt. your wdl and dependency difficulties

see below for details

 

[RachelSusan]

Hi DaveB,

I am sorry to hear that you are having bad days among the good days. Sadly that is what I experienced long after reinstatement and experience again when I taper. I was just looking at my last taper and saw the I had the usual day 2 through day 10 of symptoms but then again it hit days 21 through 25.  Days 21 through 25 were out of the norm for me.  I kept asking myself where they came from.  Who knows.... It's hard to say why you keep feeling better then worse but it is what I have experience as well throughout this entire process.  I feel as if I am walking a tightrope.  I feel as if If I don't stay perfectly balanced I will fall off. For example, I don't dare have a cocktail it might throw me off, I don't dare have caffeine or take cold medicine when I am sick, it might throw me off.  And then sometimes I just get hit with a symptom even though I haven't changed a thing. I try and look at the over all picture and believe me I am far better than when this first started for me.  You will get through this too.   Yes, the bad days are torture, but don't let them freak you out as well. If you can get to the point where you can say, oh that's normal in this abnormal situation, you will be better off. And believe me, even with all my experience with this garbage drug I still go to a very dark place sometimes. In fact I am sure there will be a time you will be trying to bolster me up.  Good luck my friend.

 

My taper is next week, I think.

[Rosetta]

16 hours ago, DaveB said:

I get what you mean, I am still in the phase where I almost don't dare be home alone with my thoughts, it just causes anxiety and I still don't "enjoy" anything. The anxiety is almost too much, so I would have gone with my family, not because I would have fun, but out of fear of "what would I do by myself?" Does that make any sense? Normal, boring, easy days are my worst because I have more time to think and therefore the anxiety is stronger. I used to enjoy nothing more than a lazy day at home with the family, now the thought of it fills me with anxiety. 

 

That makes perfect sense.  That's exactly how I was.  I could not allow myself to be alone.  It was torture.  I could not even go for a walk alone because I couldn't be alone inside my own head.  I didn't want to go out; I didn't want to even get ready, but the idea of being alone was more horrifying.  This phase will end.  I feel myself getting closer to being able to just "be."  Ironically, right now it's easier to "be" if I'm alone because my daughter can't be quiet.  Even having my husband walking around, opening and shutting doors, and making normal noises is too much in the early part of the day if I'm in a wave. Eventually, I'll be normal. I can feel the on edge feeling fading over time.  It's hard to wait. --R

[nz11]

Just popping into wish you stability and healing.

[DaveB]

16 hours ago, nz11 said:

Just popping into wish you stability and healing.

Thanks NZ!

 

On 2/4/2018 at 7:26 AM, RachelSusan said:

Hi DaveB,

I feel as if I am walking a tightrope.  I feel as if If I don't stay perfectly balanced I will fall off. For example, I don't dare have a cocktail it might throw me off, I don't dare have caffeine or take cold medicine when I am sick, it might throw me off.  And then sometimes I just get hit with a symptom even though I haven't changed a thing. I try and look at the over all picture and believe me I am far better than when this first started for me.  You will get through this too.   Yes, the bad days are torture, but don't let them freak you out as well. If you can get to the point where you can say, oh that's normal in this abnormal situation, you will be better off. And believe me, even with all my experience with this garbage drug I still go to a very dark place sometimes. In fact I am sure there will be a time you will be trying to bolster me up.  Good luck my friend.

 

My taper is next week, I think.

Yes, I hate the tightrope. Almost like I have to think of everything I do or eat in terms of "how will this effect me?" I am hoping I can start to get out of that habit with more stabilization, but it is really annoying! Hoping your next taper is uneventful. 

 

On 2/4/2018 at 8:50 AM, Rosetta said:

That makes perfect sense.  That's exactly how I was.  I could not allow myself to be alone.  It was torture.  I could not even go for a walk alone because I couldn't be alone inside my own head.  I didn't want to go out; I didn't want to even get ready, but the idea of being alone was more horrifying.  This phase will end.  I feel myself getting closer to being able to just "be."  Ironically, right now it's easier to "be" if I'm alone because my daughter can't be quiet.  Even having my husband walking around, opening and shutting doors, and making normal noises is too much in the early part of the day if I'm in a wave. Eventually, I'll be normal. I can feel the on edge feeling fading over time.  It's hard to wait. --R

 

Good to hear you experienced this and it does end. I am excited for the phase when I can just "be'. I know what you mean about always being on "edge," and very glad it is fading, but it is still really hard and for sure hard to wait!

[Gridley]

Dave, as you stabilize, that tightrope feeling will fade.

[DaveB]

26 minutes ago, Gridley said:

Dave, as you stabilize, that tightrope feeling will fade.

 

Good to hear Gridley! Seems I am still pretty unstable. Yesterday I had significant periods where I felt almost normal, better at night. However I also had periods of time that were filed with almost unbearable anxiety, then it would almost completely shut off. Really weird day.

[Rosetta]

Hi, Dave.  I hope today is better for you.  - Rosetta

[DaveB]

1 hour ago, Rosetta said:

Hi, Dave.  I hope today is better for you.  - Rosetta

 

Doing ok today Rosetta. I have been better, but I have also been a whole lot worse! 

[DaveB]

In the mornings I am so tired I pretty much fall asleep at work at about 10:00AM, yet my anxiety is still high at this time. Has anyone else experienced not being able to keep your eyes open, but feeling very "keyed up" at the same time? How did you deal with it? I am hoping I am starting to pull out of my most recent wave. Having some really good moments every day for a few hours, but some periods of really high anxiety every day too. Seems to have little to no rhyme or reason, ie: wake up with HUGE anxiety, get a break for a few hours late morning to mid afternoon, then another strong wave of anxiety from about 1-6PM, before it subsides at night. This has kind of been a pattern of mine during this process, any idea why this would be?

[wildchild93]

This sounds so similar to my story except my original antidepressant was Effexor instead of Zoloft. 

[Dalalea]

3 hours ago, DaveB said:

Having some really good moments every day for a few hours,

Glad to hear this!

[DaveB]

14 minutes ago, wildchild93 said:

This sounds so similar to my story except my original antidepressant was Effexor instead of Zoloft. 

 

I know, almost scary similar right? We will make it and it will get better. I am sorry you have to go through this, but it does make it easier somehow to know I am not crazy and I am not alone!

[wildchild93]

Yea my reinstatement didn’t work either. I tried to get off one time before years ago, reinstated, and got it back. This time, no luck. But we will get there. I know I am not crazy now. 

[DaveB]

15 hours ago, wildchild93 said:

Yea my reinstatement didn’t work either. I tried to get off one time before years ago, reinstated, and got it back. This time, no luck. But we will get there. I know I am not crazy now. 

This was my first attempt to get off in 8 years. Just simply didn't think I needed them anymore and I had NO CLUE the damage they could cause. Spent a year "trying" this and that to get back to normal, came here and realized all the "trying" was likely making my problems worse. Wish I was on Zoloft again instead of Paxil just because that is probably what my brain thinks it needs, making the stabilization even harder. However, I have been on Paxil now for so long, a switch would likely cause more harm, so I wait in no man's land, hoping my brain can calm down.  

[DaveB]

I need some advice on my patterns and what it could mean, it seems like I am falling into a pretty weird daily pattern:

 

7:00- 7:30AM - Restlessly Awake

7:30 - 9AM - Get up to a cortisol morning (not super high, I have had MUCH worse, but enough to make things difficult).

8:30 - 9 AM - Take Garden of Life Men's Multivitamin, Sports Research Omega 3 Fish Oil (2074 total Omega 3s), 250 mgs Naturemade Magnesium Citrate, 2000IU Nature Made Vitamin D with Protein Bran Muffin, Banana and Dr Pepper.

9AM - Noon - Anxiety is MUCH bettter than the morning. Sometimes it almost shuts off completely, other times it is still there but very manageable.

Noon - 5PM - Anxiety greatly increases to almost unmanageable levels again, like someone flips a pain switch.

1PM - Lunch usually a Subway sandwich and Dr. Pepper

5PM - 11PM - Anxiety very gradually subsides little by little, but in waves until night, which is tolerable.

10:30PM - 40mgs Paxil, 2.5 mgs Zyprexa

11PM - 7AM - Sleep VERY soundly without awakening at all usually.  

 

Anyone with any advice? Is there something I a doing or ingesting that is causing such a weird pattern, or is it just my pattern of daily windows and waves that will balance out as I become more stable?

 

[Rosetta]

Thanks for your post on my thread.  It would seem to be obvious by now that ADs cause anxiety.  It's all so logical.  The body and brain is reacting to life with "depression"- an attempt to get us to slow down and take better care of ourselves.  Giving the brain a drug to pull us out of the "depression" would have to activate the same sorts of mechanisms that cause anxiety.   It's an iatrogenic nightmare because the solution is not to simply stop the AD.  Yes, I do hope I will be able to handle anything when this is over -- a day that cannot come too soon!  (This morning has been hard.  The kiddo woke up early, and I've been awake since at least 5:30 while the anxiety builds and builds.) The positive thing is that I'm more motivated than ever to use coping techniques.  As you stabilize, and you appear to be stabilizing don't you think, those techniques will work for you.  Have a good day, Dave! -- Rosetta

[Rosetta]

What about the multivitamin?