DaveB: trying to stop a roller coaster year

[RachelSusan]

I hope today turns out OK.  Also if your pattern holds true to form you should have a better night.  Fingers crossed.

RS

[DaveB]

2 hours ago, RachelSusan said:

I hope today turns out OK.  Also if your pattern holds true to form you should have a better night.  Fingers crossed.

RS

 

I am hoping, so far another pretty tough day!

[Carmie]

Hi Dave, 

 

Just wanted to say I’m sorry you’re having such a rough time. Each day is a day closer to healing, that doesn’t make it any easier though when going through waves. We just have to hang in there one day at a time, and sometimes a minute at a time. 

 

Sending hugs🤗

[DaveB]

17 minutes ago, Carmie said:

Hi Dave, 

 

Just wanted to say I’m sorry you’re having such a rough time. Each day is a day closer to healing, that doesn’t make it any easier though when going through waves. We just have to hang in there one day at a time, and sometimes a minute at a time. 

 

Sending hugs🤗

 

Thanks Carmie! Starting to feel a little better now as the day is winding down. Is that a good sign it gets better at the end of the day, or bad in that this pattern shows I am as stable as I am going to get.

[Carmie]

1 hour ago, DaveB said:

 

Thanks Carmie! Starting to feel a little better now as the day is winding down. Is that a good sign it gets better at the end of the day, or bad in that this pattern shows I am as stable as I am going to get.

 

Hi Dave, 

 

We can get waves any time of the day. When we get them is irrelevant to our healing. Mine are all over place. I’ve had heaps of windows and waves all in the same day. 

 

We will all eventually stabilise, and we will all eventually heal. With just have to learn to deal with the fear we experience while going through waves. Find yourself some good distractions, some hobbies, some good movies or tv series, go out in nature, listen to movies, explore etc etc instead of focusing on symptoms 24/7. 

 

I know its really hard but we can do this💚

[Rabe]

Hi Dave...so sorry you have had a hard stretch...but also so glad to read that things seems a bit better!  YAY!  Thinking about you!!

[DaveB]

On 12/29/2018 at 11:41 AM, Gridley said:

I had a paradoxical reaction to Ashwaganda--it made me anxious.  

 

How did you know it was the ashwaganda? Did the anxiety hit right after you took it, or you just in general had more anxiety when you were taking it? I am wondering if I need to stop?

[Gridley]

9 hours ago, DaveB said:

 

How did you know it was the ashwaganda? Did the anxiety hit right after you took it, or you just in general had more anxiety when you were taking it? I am wondering if I need to stop?

 

Just a matter of cause and effect.  Every time I took it I felt increased anxiety.  When I stopped taking it, I stopped feeling the increased anxiety.  Doesn't necessarily apply to you.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Gridley

[DaveB]

Ok thanks for the info Gridley. I am cautiously optimistic about this day. This morning has not been as bad as the previous few. I worked out really hard Monday night, could that have sent me into a 3 day wave? I could see it making Tuesday a little hard with maybe some increased cortisol but the other days probably weren’t related...right?

[DaveB]

Really weird day. Will feel ok for a bit, then slammed by anxiety, then ok for a bit, and slammed again. Hoping for some stability tonight!

[ChessieCat]

4 hours ago, DaveB said:

I worked out really hard Monday night, could that have sent me into a 3 day wave?

 

Yes.  exercise-do-more-do-less-do-nothing-what-worked-for-you

 

[DaveB]

3 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Yes.  exercise-do-more-do-less-do-nothing-what-worked-for-you

 

 

Wow, there have been some bad reactions to exercise it would seem. I will have to take my workouts much easier in the future.

[Rabe]

Take care of you Dave...I have had to give up weights and exercise except for errands and short walks.  Worth it though!  

[DaveB]

Anxiety went away from about 2-4Pm today, thought I was done with it for the day and it would end up being a pretty good day. Flared back up at about 4:30 or 5 and is still kind of hanging around at 7:45. Certainly not my pattern and very frustrating! Would have been my first decent day of the week, looks like it isn’t going to happen.

[DaveB]

I am really considering an updose back to 20mgs. I am not sure I can keep this up.

[ChessieCat]

5 minutes ago, DaveB said:

I am really considering an updose back to 20mgs

 

Really???   

 

11 hours ago, DaveB said:

I worked out really hard Monday night, could that have sent me into a 3 day wave?

 

3 hours ago, DaveB said:

Wow, there have been some bad reactions to exercise it would seem.

 

I'm am being very blunt with my comment which is from observing your previous behaviour.  You are incredibly impatient.  Every time something happens with your symptoms you immediately think that you have to take something.  That's what has got you into this mess to begin with.

 

It's time to learn to sit with the discomfort.

[DaveB]

3 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Really???   

 

 

 

I'm am being very blunt with my comment which is from observing your previous behaviour.  You are incredibly impatient.  Every time something happens with your symptoms you immediately think that you have to take something.  That's what has got you into this mess to begin with.

 

It's time to learn to sit with the discomfort.

 

Yeah I know, I guess I just keep wishing I could do something to fix it. These two years of waiting and wishing have gotten really old!

[ChessieCat]

4 hours ago, DaveB said:

I am really considering an updose back to 20mgs

 

November 7th - Now: Paxil 10mgs

 

This isn't being critical, I'm just trying to help you understand how crazy your thinking is.  It wasn't even going to be a tiny increase.  You were going to double your dose.

[Happy2Heal]

6 hours ago, DaveB said:

 

Yeah I know, I guess I just keep wishing I could do something to fix it.

 

there's something you can do to fix it, but it's the opposite of what us "fixers" would think to do- and that is to just wait it out.

I know, trust me, that's frustrating and not what our instincts tell us to do.

we want to DO SOMETHING!

but waiting is kinda doing something

 

Distracting is definitely doing something, so there's that!

 

you're gonna be ok. sometimes our expectations cause more problems than what is really happening.  

 

I am working with my therapist on what she calls "radical acceptance"- it's a way of being more open to whatever happens and not so attached to things going a certain way. I'm not sure I fully understand it, but a couple of times, she's told me that I've "gotten it". lol

So I guess I can do it sometimes, even if I can't explain it or even recognize it.

 

 

[DaveB]

@ChessieCat @Happy2Heal, Thanks guys! Saturday is an excercise day for me, so I just finished and made it much more moderate than my usual very vigorous exercise. Hopefully this will help with tomorrow not being so bad. You just kind of think of exercise as a good thing, tough to realize it could be causing problems.

[DaveB]

Just read through my notes from last year and wow, I was really doing pretty well last May. Much better than I remember to be honest. Not sure why I decided to start the testosterone therapy as that really messed up my progress. Then when I felt like I wasn’t making progress with my hold (likely cause by testosterone, I made some boneheaded moves with my Paxil dose). Hopefully since I was close to stable before, I can get there again.

[ChessieCat]

I'm not sure whether I've mentioned this to you before or not.

 

Don't compare how you are feeling now to how you were feeling at your best.  Compare how you are feeling now to how you felt at your worst.

 

12 minutes ago, DaveB said:

I was really doing pretty well last May. Much better than I remember to be honest. Not sure why I decided to start the testosterone therapy as that really messed up my progress.

 

7 minutes ago, DaveB said:

I made some boneheaded moves with my Paxil dose

 

I'm glad that you have gone back and checked your notes.  It might help you to be more accepting of what is, at this time, and help you to be more patient.

 

In the future, if you start thinking about doing something, I suggest you remember the above statements.

[DaveB]

2 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

Don't compare how you are feeling now to how you were feeling at your best.  Compare how you are feeling now to how you felt at your worst.

 

I like this idea!

 

2 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

I'm glad that you have gone back and checked your notes.  It might help you to be more accepting of what is, at this time, and help you to be more patient.

 

Yes it was helpful to see that last January I too was in a bad spot, and I really did start to pull out of it by holding...only to add testosterone and mess everything up again. Oh well, lesson learned, and at least I can see that healing did happen by holding.

[Altostrata]

On 1/6/2019 at 12:38 PM, Altostrata said:

 

Your body needs to adapt to changes, but you also have to observe for a while to see if the change was a good one. If it wasn't, then you can tweak something. This takes patience and discipline.

 

It looks like your system is adapting to the significant decrease in Paxil dosage.

 

I would like to see what the separate effects of Paxil and Zyprexa. They have an interaction that might be affecting your symptom pattern  https://www.drugs.com/interactions-check.php?drug_list=1744-1113,1800-1156

 

Can you gradually move your Paxil dose up an hour or so every day until you're taking it in the morning? You will need to track your dosing and symptoms, including your sleep pattern, every day.

 

It's possible that taking Paxil earlier will reduce some of the alerting you get during the day. But you will need to observe if it makes you too dopey to work, etc.

 

So, how is this going? What times of day are you taking your drugs? Please keep daily notes on paper about your symptoms, when you take your drugs, and their dosages. Use a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom, drug and dosage) on the right.

[DaveB]

3 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

So, how is this going? What times of day are you taking your drugs? Please keep daily notes on paper about your symptoms, when you take your drugs, and their dosages. Use a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom, drug and dosage) on the right.

 

I decided not to move my dose of Paxil. A year ago I was taking it in the morning and I still was experiencing the anxiety awakenings, probably moreso actually. I like taking Paxil at night, easier to remember to take at the same time each day. Unless you really think it would make a huge difference, I would rather not go through the hassle of moving it to a more inconvenient time of day.

[Altostrata]

I wouldn't have suggested it if I didn't think it was significant. If you read my post from January 6, above, I explained why. Are you still taking Zyprexa and Paxil together?

 

We can't work miracles here, we can't prescribe drugs, all we can do is see if working with what you're taking can help. If you don't want to make any changes, I'm at a lost to figure out how to answer your posts.

[DaveB]

10 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

I wouldn't have suggested it if I didn't think it was significant. If you read my post from January 6, above, I explained why. Are you still taking Zyprexa and Paxil together?

 

We can't work miracles here, we can't prescribe drugs, all we can do is see if working with what you're taking can help. If you don't want to make any changes, I'm at a lost to figure out how to answer your posts.

 

Yes I have still been taking them together. I am sorry, I just haven’t made the change because I’m the fall of 2017 I was doing very poorly taking Paxil in the AM and Zyprexa at night. I made a switch to take Paxil and Zyprexa together and started feeling much better. For sure could have been coincidence.

[DaveB]

8 AM - Wake feeling good, zero to mild anxiety.

8-9:30AM - Trying to sleep in, anxiety building.

9:30AM - Wake, take Garden if life multivitamin, Fish Oil, Magnesium, vitamin D and 1/3 of ashwaghanda dose.

9:30 - 11AM - Crushing Anxiety

11AM - Noon - Anxiety easing a bit

noon - 2Pm - Feeling good, anxiety low

2PM - 4PM - Anxiety building again

4PM - 6PM - VERY high anxiety again.

6:30PM - Take 2/3 of ashwaghanda

 

Fill in the rest as it goes...SO up and down. Thought I would never get through the morning, then from noon - 2 I was fine, then unfortunately it all went bad on me again. Really struggling to cope at this point. No good days for about a week now.

[eymen23]

Dave,

 

Just curious. What have you done in regards to your testosterone shots? Admittedly, I have come to know a lot about anabolic steroids over the last few years and I know that stopping/starting these hormones can have a big impact on mood. 

[DaveB]

7 minutes ago, eymen23 said:

Dave,

 

Just curious. What have you done in regards to your testosterone shots? Admittedly, I have come to know a lot about anabolic steroids over the last few years and I know that stopping/starting these hormones can have a big impact on mood. 

 

Hey eymen23,

 

i discontinued the testosterone shots. My last shot was November 26th.

[eymen23]

I appreciate this is a site for getting off psychiatric drugs and not hormone replacement, but stopping testosterone shots can leave you feeling very low/anxious for quite some time. 

 

Do you know what testostone you were injecting? There’s different esters such as enanthate, cypionate etc. 

 

Whilst taking exogenous testosterone, your body’s natural production will have fallen to 0 and that now needs to pick back up. This process can also have knock on effects on your estrogen and prolactin levels, all of which can impact your mood and well being. 

 

Usually with testosterone shots they use longer esters so you don’t need to get injections every day, but after about two weeks I’d suspect the level of testosterone will drop enough to begin feeling the impact of having 0 natural testosterone produced by your body. 

 

I’m not saying any of this to panic you, but so you can consider whether this is feeding into how you are feeling at the minute and whether it’s even more important to hold with your drug regimen. 

[DaveB]

2 hours ago, eymen23 said:

I appreciate this is a site for getting off psychiatric drugs and not hormone replacement, but stopping testosterone shots can leave you feeling very low/anxious for quite some time. 

 

Do you know what testostone you were injecting? There’s different esters such as enanthate, cypionate etc. 

 

Whilst taking exogenous testosterone, your body’s natural production will have fallen to 0 and that now needs to pick back up. This process can also have knock on effects on your estrogen and prolactin levels, all of which can impact your mood and well being. 

 

Usually with testosterone shots they use longer esters so you don’t need to get injections every day, but after about two weeks I’d suspect the level of testosterone will drop enough to begin feeling the impact of having 0 natural testosterone produced by your body. 

 

I’m not saying any of this to panic you, but so you can consider whether this is feeding into how you are feeling at the minute and whether it’s even more important to hold with your drug regimen. 

 

I was getting weekly shots, of cypionate I believe. I know, I don’t know what is doing what at this point in my body, all I know is in December I was have good days about every other, now I haven’t had a good one in about a week and to be honest I am scared! Scared of this never ending, and scared of where I am headed with this whole thing just getting worse and worse. I agree the stopping testosterone could be a culprit, but no question starting it in June was a bad move as well so I was kind of in a rock and a hard place. The fast taper of Paxil was just honestly completely boneheaded, but I don’t know how to fix that at this point either.

[Altostrata]

Thanks for that information, eyman. It is possible your body is still adjusting to discontinuation of the testosterone shots.

 

I believe I suggested tapering them, which would have been shots of decreasing dosages. Is this what you did?

 

2 hours ago, DaveB said:

the fall of 2017 I was doing very poorly taking Paxil in the AM and Zyprexa at night.

 

How did you do poorly?

 

Your daily notes MUST include the times of day you take your drugs and your symptoms before and afterward. 

 

When I post questions, please look carefully at them and answer them completely so I don't have to ask again. Thanks.

[DaveB]

4 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

I believe I suggested tapering them, which would have been shots of decreasing dosages. Is this what you did?

 

No I just quit getting them in November. Maybe you are thinking of someone else, I never really got advice on the testosterone shots, which I totally understand being beyond the scope of this site.

 

6 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

How did you do poorly?

 

Honestly about how I am doing now. Really bad mornings, giving way to a little better nights but feeling like overall in a constant wave. A couple of weeks ago I was having good days, now I am lucky to have a good hour or two. Not sure what changed, I have held on all fronts for over a month, changed nothing. Maybe I should stop the Ashwaghanda supplement I started the beginning of December?

[DaveB]

3 hours ago, DaveB said:

8 AM - Wake feeling good, zero to mild anxiety.

8-9:30AM - Trying to sleep in, anxiety building.

9:30AM - Wake, take Garden if life multivitamin, Fish Oil, Magnesium, vitamin D and 1/3 of ashwaghanda dose.

9:30 - 11AM - Crushing Anxiety

11AM - Noon - Anxiety easing a bit

noon - 2Pm - Feeling good, anxiety low

2PM - 4PM - Anxiety building again

4PM - 6PM - VERY high anxiety again.

6:30PM - Take 2/3 of ashwaghanda

 

Fill in the rest as it goes...SO up and down. Thought I would never get through the morning, then from noon - 2 I was fine, then unfortunately it all went bad on me again. Really struggling to cope at this point. No good days for about a week now.

 

6:30PM - 9:30PM: anxiety still hanging around, feeling defeated and hopeless, not ready to start another work week while dealing with this!

 

[Altostrata]

On 11/14/2017 at 4:10 PM, DaveB said:

....Since I was prescribed the Zyprexa, I still wake feeling "keyed up" but it is not as bad and not as early (usually don't wake til 7 or 7:30AM). 

 

I was on the Zoloft for 6 weeks, being told that it can increase anxiety at the start, but then it will subside and I will go back to normal. When that didn't happen at 6 weeks I was told Lexapro works faster and is better for anxiety anyway...so I started it. One week at 5mgs then 10mgs for 7 weeks. When that didn't help I decided "enough of these meds, I have never had anxiety this bad, I will just get off." Well unfortunately my month off of Lexapro was no better, still waking early, still having extreme anxiety, wondering what the heck had happened to me. I was talked into giving Paxil a try by my doctor saying "it was the least activating" of the SSRIs and it could actually help me sleep...I didn't and I really felt no different on it than the other two. After two months of Paxil and feeling no better the doctor decided I just hadn't got to a "therapeutic" dose of Paxil for my severe anxiety, so he recommended going up to 40 and then if no improvement 60 on Paxil, in the meantime he gave me Zyprexa to help sleep and morning panic. To be honest I have been better since August, I am assuming the Zyprexa is calming down my overactive nervous system, but I am far from "stable." I went to 60 MGs of Paxil and felt a little better than I did at 40 for a week or two (probably placebo) then back to how I have felt since August (which admittedly is much better than Spring and Early Summer). Since I don't think the Paxil is helping, and actually may be "activating" and counteracting the Zyprexa (I hate even typing Zyprexa, I NEVER thought I would ever take an anti-psychotic, but here I am, and unfortunately I have to admit it has helped) I want to go lower and off the Paxil. From looking over this site it seems I have attempted what you would call a "reinstatement" of Paxil, that clearly hasn't worked. Seems I have four choices and would welcome and recommendations you could give. 

 

1. Stay at 50mgs of Paxil with the 2.5mgs of Zyprexa hoping I will "stabilize" even though I haven't yet in my two months at both 40mgs and 60mgs of Paxil.

2. Realize the Paxil has never helped me and could in fact be "activating" and further hurting my chances to let my brain heal from my Zoloft CT and simply quit.

3. Go back up to 60mgs of Paxil and stay there until I "stabilize" even though I am two-months at this dose with no sign of leveling out. 

4. Slowly wean myself off the Paxil, even though I am not stable as it is just a likely it is doing as much harm as good. 

 

I have read on this site that I shouldn't get off the Zyprexa until after dealing with the Paxil as it is a "brakes" medication and could help with whatever has happened to me this year. I really hate that I am taking Zyprexa and honestly the side-effect profile terrifies me, I have already gained about 15 lbs, but noticed this quickly and have been able to maintain my weight at 205 at 6'2", so it isn't a HUGE problem...yet. 

 

I welcome any thoughts, opinions, and insights. I have been very impressed with this site and am learning a lot about what has happened to me and what may be the best course of action moving forward. 

 

On 11/15/2017 at 12:42 PM, Gridley said:

Hello, Dave B, and welcome to SurvivingAntidepressants.org (SA),

 

You have had a great many changes in dosage and drugs in the last weeks and months, including at least one cold turkey.  This is all destabilizing to the central nervous system and causing the withdrawal symptoms you have experienced.  SA recommends tapering no more than 10% per month with a 3-4 week hold after that taper to allow your brain to stabilize.  I have attached two links below that will explain further.

 

Please add to your signature the cold turkey of Lexapro.

   

Because you have made so many changes, my recommendation would be to make no more changes at all at this point and see if you can stabilize on your current doses of Zyprexa and Paxil.  It can take longer than two months to stabilize.  After you have stabilized (which means not an absence of withdrawal symptom but rather that they are tolerable), it will be tie to begin thinking about tapering--but not before. Please let your system stabilize on your current dosages before contemplating any more changes.  I recognize the desire to do something, but holding is doing something--it allowing your CNS to stabilize.

 

To get  familiarized with the protocols followed by SA, I am linking a couple of topics so that you have a better understanding of what is recommended here and the steps that you can take to minimize your withdrawal.  

 

What is Withdrawal Syndrome?

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

 

On 11/16/2017 at 9:41 AM, DaveB said:

Yesterday, and a pretty typical day.

 

7:30 AM - Wake up, slept a little later as I have on 50mgs, feeling a little less "keyed up" with anxiety than usual in the mornings (which is usually the worst time of day).

9:00 AM - Take Garden of Life Men's Multivitamin, Sports Research Omega 3 Fish Oil (2074 total Omega 3s), 250 mgs Naturemade Magnesium Citrate, 2000IU Nature Made Vitamin D

10:00 AM - Noon - Feeling pretty good, borderline "normal"

Noon - 4PM - Pretty strong off and on waves of anxiety.

4PM - 9PM - Anxiety still present but receding.

9PM - 11PM - Feeling pretty good, borderline "normal"

11PM - 50mgs Paxil, 2.5mgs Zyprexa.

11:30PM - Bed

 

On 11/30/2017 at 3:11 PM, DaveB said:

I feel like I am doing ok, but really up and down. I am getting a few hours a day where I don't feel it at all, I feel really good and it is such a breath of fresh air to feel normal, then a wave where the anxiety is overwhelming and comes out of nowhere. Is this to be expected at this point and it should even out, or does this seem like a problem?

 

On 1/3/2018 at 5:01 PM, DaveB said:

 

So I screwed up...BAD! I went to Montana for Christmas, feeling pretty good. I accidentally took 2 .5mg pills of Klonopin instead of my 2 20mg pills of Paxil. This happened for what I think was at least 2 days, but could have been as many as 4 or 5. For those few days I went from feeling good, to better than good like almost completely normal. Not even sure why I brought klonopin, I hadn't taken one since May...just felt like a safety net I guess. Now I have been back on the 40mgs of Paxil for about a week and feeling worse every day. Doc thinks 40 mgs of Paxil might be just too activating and is recommending me drop down to 20 starting tonight. Since my nervous system is already in chaos I am kind of inclined to agree with him to use this setback as a way to get stable on a much lower dose. What is everyone's thoughts? Those 3 days of almost normal made me realize I was never stable on 40mgs, so why not try 20mgs. 

 

 

I went through all of your posts from November 2017 and I do not see any where you were taking Paxil apart from Zyprexa. If you can find any, please quote them so I can see them.