DaveB: trying to stop a roller coaster year

[DaveB]

14 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I went through all of your posts from November 2017 and I do not see any where you were taking Paxil apart from Zyprexa. If you can find any, please quote them so I can see them.

 

Sorry, it was November when I switched from morning to night. I took Paxil in the AM from August - November of 2017. I don’t see any where I posted. I am happy to switch back to mornings though on your advice if you would still like me to.

[Altostrata]

On 1/6/2019 at 12:38 PM, Altostrata said:

 

Your body needs to adapt to changes, but you also have to observe for a while to see if the change was a good one. If it wasn't, then you can tweak something. This takes patience and discipline.

 

It looks like your system is adapting to the significant decrease in Paxil dosage.

 

I would like to see what the separate effects of Paxil and Zyprexa. They have an interaction that might be affecting your symptom pattern  https://www.drugs.com/interactions-check.php?drug_list=1744-1113,1800-1156

 

Can you gradually move your Paxil dose up an hour or so every day until you're taking it in the morning? You will need to track your dosing and symptoms, including your sleep pattern, every day.

 

It's possible that taking Paxil earlier will reduce some of the alerting you get during the day. But you will need to observe if it makes you too dopey to work, etc.

 

If I may speak candidly: Responding to you is getting to be way too much work, Dave.

[DaveB]

7 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

 

If I may speak candidly: Responding to you is getting to be way too much work, Dave.

 

I think you can for sure speak however you want, it is your site afterall. I am sorry I have been difficult, I am just trying to get better. I will start moving Paxil forward tonight. Thanks for your help, 

[Altostrata]

Don't forget to keep those notes with times of day, drugs, dosages, and symptoms. Post them here in your Intro topic.

[DaveB]

1 hour ago, DaveB said:

 

6:30PM - 9:30PM: anxiety still hanging around, feeling defeated and hopeless, not ready to start another work week while dealing with this!

 

 

10PM - 10MGs Paxil

11PM - 2.5 Mgs Zyprexa

 

9-11PM - Feeling good, almost 0 anxiety.

 

[ChessieCat]

39 minutes ago, DaveB said:

10PM - 10MGs Paxil

11PM - 2.5 Mgs Zyprexa

 

9-11PM - Feeling good, almost 0 anxiety.

 

Please post a full day in one post.  Thank you.

[ChessieCat]

On 11/16/2018 at 5:57 AM, brassmonkey said:

Tapering shots can be a really messy process, but again I don't know what just stopping them will do. 

 

BrassMonkey mentioned tapering testosterone.

[eymen23]

Unfortunately, stopping testosterone is not like psychiatric drugs, in that tapering does not neccessarily lead to better outcomes. 

 

The difference is that testosterone is a hormone that is naturally produced by the body (much higher amounts in the male body) and hence the body has a feedback loop for testosterone called the HPG axis. The presence of exogenous testosterone from injections will completely stop the natural production of testosterone. 

 

After stopping testosterone (or the use of any other anabolic steroid) it can take months for the body’s feedback loop to regulate and for the body to produce an adequate amount of testosterone.

 

Although some people anectodally report tapering helped to ease the process above, as there is belief that using very low amounts of testostone works by complimenting our own natural production rather than totally replacing it, most people still believe it’s best to totally stop exogenous hormone therapy and let the body regulate itself.

 

Many use something called hcg to help bring back natural testosterone production. To give an example, a very good friend of mine stopped using testosterone and 3 months later he was producing 200 ng/dl of testostone (700 is average) and felt very low with poor libido. 9 months after discontinuing shots he was still only producing 400 ng/dl but feeling slightly better. After a successful treatment with hcg he was producing 719 ng/dl at almost 12 months post discontinuation and felt ‘normal’.

 

I’m really not sure how this is all going to fit in with the psychiatric drug tapering, but I wanted yourself and the mods to be aware that this could have a significant impact on how you’re feeling, although there is no doubt that low testosterone does not cause anything as brutal as stopping psychiatric drugs. 

 

 

[DaveB]

7 hours ago, eymen23 said:

Many use something called hcg to help bring back natural testosterone production.

 

Thanks for the very good info. I was getting HCG as part of my injections, I quit those along with the testosterone. I am not sure what to do, I can barely function the anxiety is so bad. Interestingly enough,  it doesn’t hit until about 8AM. When I have to wake up before that, I actually feel somewhat normal until it hits at about 8AM. 

 

Seriously, is there any hope for me to actually get better, after all this time? I just don’t see it. I feel like I am circling the drain just getting worse and worse.

[eymen23]

Having hcg injections during the treatment is definitely a positive point, it means your body was always stimulated to produce some amount of natural testosterone during treatment, so you may bounce back a little quicker. 

 

I haven’t read all of your intro Dave but I have hope for everybody on this site. In respect of the testosterone shots, that should resolve itself before too long, and unlike psychiatric drug withdrawal it tends to be a much more linear process of improvement, not windows and waves.

 

I think the key is to keep things consistent and you will find some stability. Chopping and changing things can cause a lot more damage, and I have to say, the testosterone shots are a prime example. I really do feel for you in the sense that it’s very hard not to do something when you feel bad day in day out. But you must realise, you are doing something. You are giving your body a chance to stabilise and regulate itself. 

[ChessieCat]

40 minutes ago, eymen23 said:

But you must realise, you are doing something. You are giving your body a chance to stabilise and regulate itself. 

 

YES ! ! !

 

Dave, I suggest you go back and read through your posts for the last months, probably from about October, to see how many changes you have made.

And remember that it's not just the testosterone.  You made HUGE reductions of  Paxil in the last 2 months of 2018.

 

On 1/4/2019 at 6:03 AM, ChessieCat said:

Reminder about Dave's large and fast Paxil reductions:

 

40mg     19 Nov 2017 - 3 Sept 2018

30mg     4 Sept                   25% reduction

20mg     28 Sept                 33% reduction

10mg     7 Nov                    50% reduction

 

[DaveB]

19 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

 

YES ! ! !

 

Dave, I suggest you go back and read through your posts for the last months, probably from about October, to see how many changes you have made.

And remember that it's not just the testosterone.  You made HUGE reductions of  Paxil in the last 2 months of 2018.

 

 

 

I know I made a HUGE mistake with Paxil. I just don’t know how to fix it. Now two months later shouldn’t I be getting signs of improvement, not just getting worse by the week?

[eymen23]

Dave,

 

I don’t know how many posts you’ve read from people here on this site, but I’ve definitely read of people struggling for much longer and more intensely from MUCH smaller drops. 

 

I think consistency will really help you. Please try to think of it this way, if you make another drastic change.... do you expect to feel better? 

[ChessieCat]

14 hours ago, Altostrata said:

I went through all of your posts from November 2017 and I do not see any where you were taking Paxil apart from Zyprexa

 

14 hours ago, DaveB said:

 I will start moving Paxil forward tonight.

 

I don't have time to go back and check but I feel sure that Alto did suggest separating the dosing times of Paxil and Zyprexa.  If you move one of them, it is best to do it by 1 hour each day.  However, if you notice an uptick in symptoms then stopped at those dosing times and see if things settle down, before moving again.

 

And remember to only make one change at a time.   And keep notes.  Keep it Simple, Slow and Stable

 

 

23 minutes ago, DaveB said:

I just don’t know how to fix it. Now two months later shouldn’t I be getting signs of improvement, not just getting worse by the week?

 

Other than trying the separation of Paxil and Zyprexa (see above), you need to do NOTHING other than using non drug techniques to keep yourself calm and as stress free as possible.

 

You are getting signs of improvement.  But you are getting impatient.  Impatience adds stress.

 

I've just posted this in another member's topic:

 

Something that I think happens is that the improvements seem to happen gradually, whereas the worsening seems to happen in one fell swoop.  You may also find that each wave you go through isn't quite as bad as the previous one, however it can be hard to compare because you've had a period of improvement in between the waves so that is what you compare it to.

 

[DaveB]

33 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Something that I think happens is that the improvements seem to happen gradually, whereas the worsening seems to happen in one fell swoop.  You may also find that each wave you go through isn't quite as bad as the previous one, however it can be hard to compare because you've had a period of improvement in between the waves so that is what you compare it to.

 

 

Yes, that is what had happened, everything has gotten really bad, really quick. I near constant wave for a week now, making it really hard. In December I was having full days that were not bad, now it seems I can never get a break from the anxiety.

[ChessieCat]

Q:  What non drug techniques are you using to try and stay calm?

 

And it's important to learn Acceptance .  It is was it is, at this time.

[DaveB]

21 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Q:  What non drug techniques are you using to try and stay calm?

 

And it's important to learn Acceptance .  It is was it is, at this time.

 

I try to get up and walk around when things get bad. I find this does help a little. I try to be more present, but that is hard to do at times. 

 

I need to work on acceptance, it is hard when you feel like you are just going backwards and getting worse. However, it is what it is at this time and I just need to get through it and hope for better days to come.

[eymen23]

1 hour ago, DaveB said:

when you feel like you are just going backwards and getting worse

 

Every day you hang in there and avoid making unneccesary changes is one step closer to being off these medications and feeling well. 

 

There are no backwards steps in this process, unless you make a change that pushes the goal post further away. How you feel day-to-day is almost irrelevant, as long as you can live it and get through it, you’re one step closer. 

[ChessieCat]

1 hour ago, DaveB said:

I try to get up and walk around when things get bad. I find this does help a little. I try to be more present, but that is hard to do at times. 

 

I suggest that you add in other things.  Not just things to do when you are struggling.  It might not feel that they are helping but if you can take time throughout the day to give your brain some rest it can help and it also becomes a habit.  Set an alarm for several times throughout the day and have some down/quiet time, eg go and sit outside and look at the sky/clouds, listen to the noises around you, check out the leaves/flowers, or if inside look out of the window, or flick through a picture book or some nature videos/YouTube or listen to some nice music.  Like anything the more you practice the more natural it becomes.  It doesn't have to be for long but it can be something you look forward to.

 

Amazing Nature on Twitter

[RachelSusan]

Dave,

Someone else here on this site said that doing nothing is doing something. Right now you are doing the biggest and hardest job of all, not making any changes.  The human body is a miraculous thing, and many times during our lives, over and over, it heals itself. I have seen it in myself, and not just with withdrawal.

 

There are presently two things going on with you, your present discomfort (perhaps I should say torment) and your fear of getting stuck this way.  You will not get stuck and unfortunately your present agony is something you just have to live through.  I understand relentless suffering like you are going through, but for now can you just view it as one day at a time? Can you make it to the end of the day, this day?  Yes, you can.

 

I think eymen 23 provided all of us with some excellent information. Wow was that informative. Thank you eymen.  I think ChessieCat is brilliantly guiding you along your journey.  I know it doesn't help in the now with your suffering but I do believe you have a fantastic support system here on this site.  We are all here and we all care about you.

@eymen23

@ChessieCat
 

I know I haven't said it lately so I will say it again, I am so very sorry for your suffering.  It's not right, it's not fair. We are all here and we all care.

RS

 

[DaveB]

@eymen23 @ChessieCat @RachelSusan - Thank you all for your information, advice, suggestions, and support. It really means a lot. Things got much better for me as the day went on, I will post a full daily notes at the end of the day.

[ChessieCat]

20 minutes ago, DaveB said:

Things got much better for me as the day went on

 

That seems to be the pattern at this time.  I suggest you remind yourself of this.

[DaveB]

1 hour ago, ChessieCat said:

 

That seems to be the pattern at this time.  I suggest you remind yourself of this.

 

I will, thanks for all your help. What are your thoughts ok me quitting ashwagandha? I started it a month ago and have certainly not gotten any better since starting, and @Gridleysaid he had an adverse reaction to it, wondering if I am getting the same. Any thoughts?

[Altostrata]

35 minutes ago, DaveB said:

What are your thoughts ok me quitting ashwagandha?

 

If it's not doing anything beneficial, it would be a good idea to stop it and remove it as a confounding factor. Be sure to keep those daily notes.

[DaveB]

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

If it's not doing anything beneficial, it would be a good idea to stop it and remove it as a confounding factor. Be sure to keep those daily notes.

 

1-5:30AM - woke many times to find zero anxiety, fell back to sleep no problem.

 

5:30-6:45AM - couldn’t really fall back to sleep, but still zero anxiety.

 

6:45AM-8 - woke took vitamins, got ready for work, still zero to mild anxiety.

 

8-9AM - anxiety starting to kick in

 

9AM-2PM - crazy high anxiety, unbearable 

 

2-3PM - Anxiety reducing

 

3-9PM - Anxiety greatly reduced, still coming in small waves, but totally manageable not a big deal.

 

9PM - took 10MGs of Paxil 

 

9-11PM - feeling good, almost perfect

 

11PM - 2.5MGs Zyprexa and bed

[ChessieCat]

5 minutes ago, DaveB said:

6:45AM-8 - woke took vitamins, got ready for work, still zero to mild anxiety.

 

8-9AM - anxiety starting to kick in

 

Q:  What vitamins are you taking?

 

Q:  Are you eating breakfast?  If yes, what do you eat and at what time?  Do you have a coffee?

[Altostrata]

Great questions, Chessie!

[ChessieCat]

Q:  Hot shower?

[DaveB]

8 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Q:  What vitamins are you taking?

 

Q:  Are you eating breakfast?  If yes, what do you eat and at what time?  Do you have a coffee?

 

Garden of Life Men’s multivitamin (choose this because of low levels of b vitamins) magnesium, fish oil, vitamin d, 1/3 of ashwagandha dose. 

 

Yes, eat the same time as vitamins. Banana and V8 drink. No coffee.

 

i have tried to cut the multivitamin, didn’t seem to make a difference in AM anxiety, also if I wake later in the day, like sleep in on Sunday, the anxiety hits before I take any vitamins or eat breakfast.

[DaveB]

7 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

Q:  Hot shower?

 

Yes, not like super hot but for sure a warm shower.

[DaveB]

9 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Q:  What vitamins are you taking?

 

Q:  Are you eating breakfast?  If yes, what do you eat and at what time?  Do you have a coffee?

 

I also forgot to mention that when the anxiety hits I always have loose stools bordering on diarrhea every morning.

[DaveB]

12 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Q:  What vitamins are you taking?

 

Q:  Are you eating breakfast?  If yes, what do you eat and at what time?  Do you have a coffee?

 

Would you recommend ditching the multivitamin and/or the vitamin d? Just taking the D as it is winter here and we don’t ever see the sun.

[ChessieCat]

EDITED TO ADD:

 

https://reference.medscape.com/drug-interactionchecker

• paroxetine + olanzapine

  paroxetine, olanzapine. unspecified interaction mechanism. Use Caution/Monitor. Serotonin modulators may enhance dopamine blockade, possibly increasing the risk for neuroleptic malignant syndrome. Antipsychotics may enhance serotonergic effect of serotonin modulators, which may result in serotonin syndrome. Monitor for evidence of serotonin toxicity (eg, mental status changes, autonomic instability, and neuromuscular hyperactivity) or neuroleptic malignant syndrome (eg, hyperthermia, muscle rigidity, autonomic dysfunction).

 

https://www.webmd.com/depression/guide/serotonin-syndrome-causes-symptoms-treatments#1

 

4 hours ago, DaveB said:

I also forgot to mention that when the anxiety hits I always have loose stools bordering on diarrhea every morning.

 

You are taking Paxil and Zyprexa at night.  Is this correct?

 

Alto has previously suggested that you move Paxil(?) earlier in the day.

 

That might be the better option to start with.  Only move by 1 hour each day.

 

Only make one change at a time.

 

============================================================================

 

What I wrote before making the above connection.

 

On 7/31/2013 at 9:19 PM, GiaK said:

I used to take ashwaganda daily...it's one of many supplements that went south on me...it's now agitating and very unpleasant...just FYI

 

My thought would be to ditch the ashwaghanda first because this is known to have a possible bad effect, and even if it did have a good effect at the beginning it may have turned on you.  See above quote.

 

I realise you are only take a small amount of ashwagandha, but your nervous system is sensitised.

 

From https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-953/ashwagandha

 

"Large doses of ashwagandha might cause stomach upset, diarrhea, and vomiting."

 

If nothing improved over about 4 or 5 days, stay off the ashwaghanda I think I'd either stop the vitamin tablet (you can reintroduce it if the anxiety didn't improve) or move it a little bit later in the day.  Not too late because it might affect your sleep.  Just late enough to separate it and see if the anxiety comes after taking it.

 

Please only make gradual changes, nothing drastic.  One change at a time.  You are investigating possible causes of the anxiety.  It needs to be done in a methodical way and also gently so as to not add any other factors into the mix and confuse things more.

 

Edited January 15, 2019 by ChessieCat
added SS info

[DaveB]

1 hour ago, ChessieCat said:

You are taking Paxil and Zyprexa at night.  Is this correct?

 

Alto has previously suggested that you move Paxil(?) earlier in the day.

 

That might be the better option to start with.  Only move by 1 hour each day.

 

Only make one change at a time.

 

===========================================================================

 

I have started to move the dose. Tonight I will take the Paxil at 8 and the Zyprexa at 11. Should I wait til I finish this to get rid of the ashwagandha? Or is it ok to do both?

[Altostrata]

Keep the ashwaganda for the time being. Also, include in notes.

[DaveB]

Tough day today, kept waiting for anxiety to shut off at night. Didn’t really happen, got better than the morning but always hung around.