Pandoraa: paroxetine and our toxic relation

[Pandoraa]

If 3 mg was to low. Then can I come back to 5 ( last dosage) or better do smaller updosage? 

For example 4. 

3 weeks ago I was on 5. 5 weeks ago on 10. 

 

 

[Pandoraa]

Shep How can I slowly discontiniue clonozepam which dr perscribed me? now I take 0,25 mg in the morning. (I have propranonol maybe this would help) , also dr suggest Lyrica instead of clonozepam, when I told him that I can't go with his fast tapper plan he agreed for my way, but he said that then I shouldn,t stay with benzo for such long time, 

 

Altostrata- I don't understand which dosage to choose for stabilising. The lowest now 3 & 5 were with support off benzos. It mean I should come back for 10,15 mg? The reason why i mention 2 of them is that is were last when I didn't use benzos. I have no idea, what to do, 

 

My going on paroxetine and going down was provided by dr, now I need to clear all this and I will try to stabilise, I don't know which dosage should it be. 

 

[AliG]

Pandoraa. As I see it you have quite a few ongoing problems here. A major one is that you continue to think you can simply eradicate symptoms with a simple dose change.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Reinstatement can sometimes lessen symptoms if managed correctly however in your case it has been so variable up to this point as to be destabilizing. It's not helpful to try and adjust doses according to symptoms and that is what I feel you may have been trying to accomplish thus far.

Stabilizing doesn't necessarily depend on the dose - it's much more about staying consistent and even on a continual daily basis. That is the real root of stability and something that has been lacking in your taper plan up to this point. We have tried to tell you this in a few different ways but it isn't registering with you so far. This is what you should be aiming for generally during this process.

 

If you have chosen 3mg and have had some experience at that dose then I would stay with that for now. Ultimately it will be less to taper in the end if your aim is to hop off all drugs in the future which I believe should be your aim. The main thing is to stay even as bobbing up and down in dose creates more instability and chaos in the nervous system - long term.

 

Please read this link : it helps to explain.

I hope that Shep can help with the clonazepam on the Benzo Forum. I wouldn't change what you already know.Your body has adjusted to the clonazepam and I would be hesitant to add in or swap another drug. They all come with their baggage and extra side -effects.In other words -I wouldn't add in Lyrica. Clonazepam can also be tapered slowly and that is what I would do.

 

My advice would be to pick a dose- Paroxetine (3 mg maybe) and stick to it for a good period of time and don't deviate from that. Let symptoms settle well and truly down. Draw a good deep breath and relax into some serious stabilizing and healing knowing that it will take patience and fortitude. I would look into some  non-drug coping techniques and also try to lean into some meditation, even if it's basic.We have all had to draw on our own "inner- strength" to get through this and you are no exception to the rule. It can be done but it requires some skill and an intelligent navigation of the process.

Ali 

 

[Shep]

3 hours ago, Pandoraa said:

Shep How can I slowly discontiniue clonozepam which dr perscribed me? now I take 0,25 mg in the morning. (I have propranonol maybe this would help) , also dr suggest Lyrica instead of clonozepam, when I told him that I can't go with his fast tapper plan he agreed for my way, but he said that then I shouldn,t stay with benzo for such long time, 

 

Pandoraa, we are not going to be able to help you if you keep adding in drugs and making changes every time you panic. Alto already explained why you should not add in Lyrica. And now you want to add in another drug - propranonol.

 

Note: There is NO drug to that can "fix" withdrawal. This is why we recommend a slow taper, which you have been unwilling to do. 

 

Again, part of your problem is your rapid decrease of trazodone, which you reduced by 75% in one month, panicked and then added in clonazepam. And then you added in Lyrica for several days and moved your paroxetine dose around. We have no idea what is causing your current symptoms with these types of additions and changes. 

 

If you are willing to work with us and stop adding in drugs and making random changes, we can help you. If not, please stop wasting our time. We've been through this before. 

 

Please list the drugs you are taking now and the doses. And then STOP making changes for at least 4 days. 

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Shep

[Pandoraa]

Sheep- I asked you about clonozepam, because I take it short time so I didn't want to keep this longer because of high risk of addiction. You have experience and last time you mentioned that it's better not take it. If I will keep it for month I could have more problem in future. Last week I decreased half. Just ask about plan. 

 

 Paroxetine 5 mg morning 

Trazadon 75 mg evening 

Clonozepam 0.25 morning 

 

I take accidentally propranolol when I have heart palpitations or panic attacks  

 

I didn't want to add propranol for daily using just like that. I just asked you if I can replace this clonozepam slowly for this to avoid addiction. 

 

I stopped to add new drags. Previous actions  were doctor will. Now I write to you if paroxetine 5 mg is not to low dose? 

Before I started Dr.will I was on 15 mg and felt so so but I didn't need benzos then. That is why I asked if I should updose to this level. 

 

 

[Shep]

14 minutes ago, Pandoraa said:

Sheep- I asked you about clonozepam, because I take it short time so I didn't want to keep this longer because of high risk of addiction. You have experience and last time you mentioned that it's better not take it. If I will keep it for month I could have more problem in future. Last week I decreased half. Just ask about plan. 

 Paroxetine 5 mg morning 

Trazadon 75 mg evening 

Clonozepam 0.25 morning 

 

It depends on if you have already developed a dependency on it or not. At this point, you can't know for sure because you've made so many other changes. This is why we're asking you to stop making changes and give yourself at least 4 days with no changes. 

 

When did you go back up to 75 mg Trazadone? In your signature, you have 50 mg on 7/7/2017 and 25 mg on 7/16/2017. When you cut the clonozepam in half, is that when you increased the Trazadone? 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Shep

[Pandoraa]

Shep- it will be

4th day on trazadon- 75 mg. 

Clonozepam I cutted on 24.07. 

 

Today is 2nd day on paroxetine 5 mg, feel just little better, but I asked moderators if I should choose higher dosage to stablise . When I started to feel worse on 3 mg- <suddenly became huge depressed and susicidal>, then I knew that dr plan go in really bad way, so I came back to last dosage (5mg) Still I don't know if I chose good one, maybe I should try stabilise on higher? Now I will go with your experiance and I will stay on one dosage (please help me to decide which) for longer, but according to my experiance 3 and 5 were to low for me. SO PLEASE LET ME KNOW- maybe I should do it on 10 or 15 mg?  I just don't understand how to choose it. 

 

(paroxetine)

5 mg (but with clonopin),

10 mg without clonopin, but with propranolol, then also acupuncture stopped to work on 2 week on this dosage,

15 (I think was the best) I experianced waves and windows.

The worse were 20,25,30- Also I saw that decreasing dosages were helping me with sympthoms till 10 mg- when acupuncture stopped to work. 

 

Thank you for support and waiting for reply, 

 

[Altostrata]

What is unclear about this?

 

On 7/26/2017 at 10:40 PM, Altostrata said:

You may find it very difficult to go off clonazepam. People become dependent on it in a couple of weeks.

 

I find it very difficult to understand your symptom pattern with all the drug changes. If you think more paroxetine would be better, you can updose by 0.5mg. I believe we've explained how to make a liquid so you can measure out very small amounts. This topic explains how to make a liquid Tips for tapering off Paxil (paroxetine)

 

Tracking your symptom pattern is essential. You will need to keep daily notes on paper about your symptoms, when you take your drugs, and their dosages. This is the only way you can tell if a drug change is beneficial.

 

It sounds like you are planning to make yet another drug change. As we've told you many times, one change on top of another confuses the situation. You're going to have to manage this carefully. If it becomes too confusing, we can't help you.

 

DO NOT CHANGE CLONAZEPAM AND PAXIL AT THE SAME TIME.

 

[Shep]

15 hours ago, Pandoraa said:

 

Shep- it will be

4th day on trazadon- 75 mg. 

Clonozepam I cutted on 24.07. 

 

 

Since you increased your trazodone dose by 75% on almost the same day you decreased the clonazepam by 50%, there's no way of telling if you are dependent on the clonazepam or not. 

 

You could come off the clonazepam quickly (since you've only been on it a few weeks), but if the increased trazodone is masking symptoms of benzo withdrawal, you may have some severe symptoms. 

 

Again, we need you to stop making changes in order for us to give you the information you are asking for.

 

Please note we cannot help you if you do not have the ability to self-manage. By self-manage, we mean the following:

 

On 8/21/2016 at 10:16 PM, scallywag said:

What do you mean by self-manage?

 

Dealing with this challenge requires a lot from you, the "taperer". You need to be able to

• take responsibility for your decisions
   
• exercise extreme patience
   
• tolerate discomfort and uncertainty
   
• communicate truthfully and responsibly about what is going on with you
   
• identify when you require local, in-person support and then take real-life action to obtain it

 

Please carefully consider your ability to meet the challenges of tapering in the context of both your current wellness and life situation.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2017 by Shep

[Pandoraa]

Shep As I mentioned I stopped and I stay at:

 

trazadon 75 mg

clonozepam 0,25 mg

and paroxetine 5 mg (3 days)

 

Is that what you asked me? 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shep]

Yes. Please don't make any changes for at least 4 days. 

 

It will help us give you advice if you can list your symptoms according to the link below. List the time of day you take each drug and the dose and your symptoms:

 

 

Keep notes on paper about your drug dosages and daily symptom pattern

 

Also, please update your signature, as what you just listed is different than your current signature. Here is a direct link to your signature box:

 

Account settings - signature

 

What we need from you:

 

1.  For at least 4 days - Don't make any drug changes. No adding new drugs, no changing doses. Do not add in supplements. 

2.  Keep daily notes, in the format listed in this link, and post them here on your thread. 

3.  Update your signature with your current drugs and doses. 

 

 

[Pandoraa]

I feel like this paroxetine is too much for my brain which already got used for 3mg. I really need to know if it's not better to keep this previous dosage? 

I have an adverse reactions. Like burning in my head. 

Can you suggest what to do with this? 

I think I can't take one more 5 mg dosage. Today I took accidentally 0.25 clonazepam. For this mind pressure. 

 

Symptoms: 

Muscle pain,  feeling like drunk,  panic , obsessive thoughts, deep depression 

 

Do urgent case is with paroxetine dosage. I can't stend this new one. But if I should install it anyway I will do. I got this feeling when I was up dosing earlier the pressure in head. If this that I was 18 days on it can relief me from this terrible feeling. 

 

It was 3 days on 5 mg. 

[scallywag]

Pandoraa, it is virtually impossible to tell what is causing your symptoms -- you have made too many changes in doses and medications in the last 3-4 weeks.

 

To get control of your situation, you need to

1. take the same doses of the medications each day
2. take each medication at the same time today as you took it yesterday
3. keep notes on paper about the times of your doses and the times your symptoms occur, weaken, strengthen, or disappear.

If you cannot manage these three things, you should be working with a local doctor NOT with an online information site such as Surviving Antidepressants.

 

Moderators have posted this link for you several times already.  Have you bothered to click on the link and read it as we have requested?

Take notes of doses and symptoms.

 

If you haven't taken the time to do so, please read what I have posted below in red:

 

What we need to see for every individual day over several days is:

- Time and dosage for drugs taken in morning
- Time and description of any symptoms in the morning
 
- Time and dosage for drugs taken in afternoon
- Time and description of any symptoms in the afternoon
 
- Time and dosage for drugs taken in evening
- Time and description of any symptoms in the evening
 
- Time and dosage for drugs taken in middle of the night
- Time and description of any symptoms in the middle of the night (such as waking)
 
And so forth. A diary, in chronological order, such as:
 
6 a.m. Woke and vomited
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Had diarrhea
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Stomachache
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Headache got worse
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke with headache

Edited July 29, 2017 by scallywag

[bubble]

How logical is this:

 

You increased the Trazodone by 75% four days ago, dropped the klonopin by 50% and was dosing Lyrica for 2 or 3 days, as well as periodic uses of propranolol. 

 

Only one of these changes would be enough to cause worsening of symptoms. But you concluded that it is because of paroxitene. While mods are telling you it is impossible to tell.

 

This is very hard for people to understand: you have to put up with the symptoms and endure them no matter what and not adjust the drugs if you want to get on the path that will take you out of this situation.

 

Do you understand what it means when we say that there are no quick fixes? Nothing you do will take your symptoms away in a matter of days.

 

But doing what you have been doing will only increase them and you are setting yourself up for longer suffering. The way out is to accept the suffering of these symptoms no matter what so that you lay the foundation for feeling better in the near future.

 

Don't change anything regardless of the symptoms for 4 days.

 

The symptoms you list are the results of all the drug adjustments you did in an attempt to make them go away and not any particular drug.

 

You decide that you have symptoms because of a particular drug so you go up or down or add a new drug. This is wrong thinking which is making you sick. 

 

 

[Pandoraa]

I started to keep notes. 

As I told you I keep taking the same drag and dosages.

 

Only in worst situation I take 0.25 klonopin or of i have strong

 heart palpitations propranol. 

 

How should I inform you about what's going ? ( send files, or put here daily short memo) 

 

Yesterday. I got huge depersonalization,  confusion,  hypochondria , intrusive thoughts. I also had muscle pain, ahedonia, just I thought that is the end of me as a person. I couldn't stop it. 

 

 

After few hrs of this hell I took accidentally klonopin and it sttoped. 

 

I keep my drags and dosages and I ask you about what I should do. Now important for me is to stop taking daily clonozepam. I need advices how to do this. 

 

Other hand I asked if higher or smaller dosage paroxetine would be better or worse for stabilisation. I have no idea about this. Just thinking higher is stronger so it allows to stop clonozepam which Dr added. 

[Pandoraa]

Today is day 4th 

Of the same dosages. 

 

[Pandoraa]

Shep Please lets make plan for this clonozepam to get out of this. 

I know that now it to early, but can we make plan that after egz. 1-2 weeks I will slowly decrease it till 1/4 of 0,5 mg, then 2 weeks later finish? 

It make me depressed and I feel drunken & no life sice I take it. 

 

scallywag After sheep sent me this I started to note this everytime

[Shep]

6 hours ago, Pandoraa said:

Shep Please lets make plan for this clonozepam to get out of this. 

I know that now it to early, but can we make plan that after egz. 1-2 weeks I will slowly decrease it till 1/4 of 0,5 mg, then 2 weeks later finish? 

It make me depressed and I feel drunken & no life sice I take it. 

 

Please see this post:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/15197-pandoraa-paroxetine-and-our-toxic-relation/&do=findComment&comment=297535

[Pandoraa]

26.07.2017

6 a.m. Clonazepam 0,25

7 a.m paroxetine 5gm

11.a.m. deporsonalisation, deep depression, panick, hipochondria , headache

13. p.m I took clonozepam 0,25 mg

10.30 Trazadon 75 mg

 

27.07.2017

6 a.m. Clonazepam 0,25

7 a.m paroxetine 5gm

10.30 p.m. Trazadon 75 mg

I felt better but still no good

 

 

28.07.2017

 

 

6 a.m. Took 0,25 Clonazepam
7 a.m. Took 5 mg Paroxetine
10 a.m. Obsessive thoughts,  
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:30 p.m. deporsonalisation, deep depression, panick, hipochondria , headache

16:30 p.m. took clonazepam 0,25 mg
4 p.m. Stomachache, Headache
6 p.m. Ate dinner
10:30 p.m. Trazadon 75, Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke up with obssesive thoughts

 

 

29.07.2017

 

 

6 a.m. Took 0,25 Clonazepam
7 a.m. Took 5 mg Paroxetine
10 a.m. Obsessive thoughts, i felt drunken almost all day  
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
12:35 p.m. deporsonalisation
6 p.m. Ate dinner- felt good
10:30 p.m. Trazadon 75, Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke up with obssesive thoughts

 

30.07.2017

 

6 a.m. Took 0,25 Clonazepam
7 a.m. Took 5 mg Paroxetine
10 a.m. Obsessive thoughts,  
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
12:35 p.m. deporsonalisation, deep depression, panick, hipochondria , headache

14:30 p.m. took clonazepam 0,123 mg
4 p.m. Stomachache, Headache
6 p.m. Ate dinner
10:30 p.m. Trazadon 75, Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke up with obssesive thoughts

 

 

Today it's 5th day of paroxetine 5 mg- I feel worse,

[Shep]

Pandoraa, thanks for filling out your information for the past few days.

 

Two thoughts:

 

1.  You still aren't able to be consistent with your doses. Your clonazepam doses are varying - once a day on July 27 and July 29 and twice a day on July 26, 28, and 30. Again, if you keep changing your drugs, we can't help you. It's very difficult to give you advice on coming off the clonazepam because you say it makes you feel worse and then you keep taking additional doses. 

 

2. You're waiting several hours after you get up and take your clonazepam before having breakfast. This is most likely making your obsessive thoughts worse in the morning. Many people report drops in blood sugar during withdrawal, so eating small, healthy meals throughout the day is vital. It's best to eat soon after waking up. Also, it looks like you're only eating once or twice a day. Try eating small meals and healthy snacks every few hours to keep your blood sugar level. Healthy meals and snacks are high in protein and low in sugar. Also, it's important to drink plenty of water during withdrawal. 

 

Two questions:

 

1.  How many hours a night are you sleeping? This should be recorded in your daily symptoms list.

 

2.  Are you using any non-drug coping skills to manage your obsessive thoughts and other symptoms? If so, what are they? 

[Pandoraa]

Oh, dears, 

After I updose paroxetine to 5 mg my sleep became worse. 

Please I feel like adverse reaction to this high dosage. May I come back to this what I had last 17 days? 3mg? It was only 5 days, and I can't stand it.

 

Clonozepam- I take when I have morning obssesive thoughts. But after this changes I have to take it accicendatly often, becuase I felt worse, when I updose paroxetine (also other changes) 

 

[Pandoraa]

from 5 days I sleep only 4-5 hours (before 7) 

 

[Pandoraa]

Shep I do non drug coping skills- now it doesn't work :-(

[Pandoraa]

I have this 3 mg pills and I was on it 18 days so maybe for my system is better to stay on this smaller dosage?

[Shep]

22 minutes ago, Pandoraa said:

Oh, dears, 

After I updose paroxetine to 5 mg my sleep became worse. 

Please I feel like adverse reaction to this high dosage. May I come back to this what I had last 17 days? 3mg? It was only 5 days, and I can't stand it.

 

 

When you updosed to 5 mg paroxetine, was it at the same time you decreased the trazodone? From your signature, you were moving both drugs around at the same time. 

 

[Pandoraa]

Shep Decreased 07.07 to 50 mg, 16.07 to 25 mg, then I increased Trazadon to 75 mg 25.07.2017 2 days before increasing paroxetine to 5 mg 29.07.2017. 

 

 

[Shep]

It's impossible to tell if it's the decrease in trazadone or the increase in paroxetine that is causing the insomnia. And it could be a combination of both. 

 

This is way it's important to give yourself a number of days or weeks on the SAME drugs at the SAME dose. 

 

Please note it takes at least 4 days to a week or longer for your nervous system to even recognize a change in dose. You only gave the trazadone 2 days before increasing the paroxetine. 

 

This is why we're asking you to hold everything steady. So far, you've haven't gone more than a few days without making a change. And in the past 4 days, you haven't gone more than a day without adding in extra clonazepam.

 

If you aren't willing to hold and give your nervous system time to stabilize before making more changes, you'll need to work with your doctor and not with an online support forum. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Shep

[Pandoraa]

Shep I know your point and I will stay on one dosage. 

The reason why I asked about paroxetine decreasing is I was longer on 3 mg, so then I realized that jump at 5 mg was to big for me, 

[Pandoraa]

Yesterday I when again was accidental clonopin. I went back to previous dosage. Bcs anyway I was taking accidentally. 

From yesterday it seems more stable. 

So regular dosage is

paroxetine 5 mg morning

Trazadon 75 mg night 

Clonozepam 0.25 morning and evening 

 

I don't know what is going on. I don't understand why it is so complicated. 

Suddenly bcs of Dr.plan I got new drag to tapper? There is no rule that after stabilising I can decrease clonozepam then paroxetine and last trazadon? I know that people who was on benzos months or years should tapper it at the end (as I read here) 

 

I thought I should tapper it ASAP bsc of short period when I was taking. 

 

 

[bhasski]

To taper benzo in the last is supportive from what I think. 

Benzos work on GABA and thus have calming .. anti anxiety effect.. which can help you in withdrawals of tapers of other drugs.

 

My experience of Paxil is activating . I have read that too.Its sort of opposition. TAPERING benzo will have its withdrawal which other drugs seems to help less.

I have not tapered myself .. just read of internet. I would like mods to put more light....

 

[ChessieCat]

This might answers some of your questions:  Taking multiple psych drugs? Which drug to taper first?