Lucidityreturn: help needed

[lucidityreturn]

hi there, any help much appreciated - i have been tapering down effexor xr by the 10% a month rule over the last year and a half - i stopped tapering for 6 months and have just restarted in the last 2 months. I am having very bad GI upset /flareup which i think is caused by withdrawal but is very hard to tolerate. I am thinking of doing a prozac bridge at this point but am concerned i am still on too much effexor and could risk serotonin syndrome? I also take seroquel IR 25/50mg a night. I have read many of the main threads/ posts on this site regarding the prozac bridge & also effexor tapering.

Could taking 5mg prozac, 60mg effexor and seroquel IR 25/50mg for one week be safe? I would then reduce /taper effexor for one week and i would continue with the prozac and then slowly taper it after a couple of months.

Any advice welcome!

Edited July 21, 2017 by mammaP
Added name to title

[mammaP]

Hi there, welcome to SA. First, cogratulations on tapering effexor so carefully.  Did the GI flare up start before or after you restarted the taper?  Have you started taking or eating anything else? I ask this because I had started having GI problems recently and couldn't understand why, then realised they had started after I had started taking turmeric! Stopped the turmeric and the GI problems went away again, it was so simple. Gut health makes a difference, and bone broth is amazing. Boil up some beef bones in a slow cooker and drink the broth, it males a big difference. 

Scroll to the bottom of this page and you will find several  topics on gut health.

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/604-important-topics-about-symptoms-including-sleep-problems/

 

About the prozac bridge, we rarely see it being successful and find it is best to stick with the original drug. Often it doesn't help and causes more problems. What was the effexor dose before tapering? 

Now you are at a lower dose it would be better to taper smaller amounts, especially with effexor. I will find a graph for you about concentrations at lower doses, it is interesting if you are scientifically minded.  

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6036-why-taper-paper-demonstrates-importance-of-gradual-change-in-plasma-concentration/

 

It will probably be best to hold your current dose for a little while to restabilise then make smaller reductions. How are you tapering?  Some count beads, others eyeball the amount, some weigh them and others make a liquid from tablets. 

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/272-tapering-off-effexor-venlafaxine/

 

It will help us if you fill out your signature with your drug and tapering history. You can find details here..

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/12364-please-put-your-withdrawal-history-in-your-signature/

 

Edited July 21, 2017 by mammaP

[lucidityreturn]

Hi MammaP

Thankyou very much for your quick & comprehensive reply! I really appreciate it

The digestive problems have reappeared since i started my taper again 2 months ago unfortunately. Last year and half the year prior I went through total hell with my digestive system - this was after being on 200mg Lamictal since 2013. I started to develop increasing nausea and ended up with a whole range of food intolerances & stomach pain & GI distress - I could barely function at all. I had to see GI specialist and had a battery of tests including endoscopy & colonoscopy which showed minor prior gastritis but everything else was normal. They suspected a possible clostridium like infective agent and I was put on 2 months of hardcore antbiotics - vancomycin and rifaximin.  They recommended I get a series of FMT treatments -feacal microbial transplant- which would cost a whopping $8000 - $10,000 as it is not covered by medicare in my country. As I was poor and unable to work I couldn't afford this treatment. Prior to psych drugs and particularly the Lamictal I had an iron stomach and whilst healthy i could generally what i liked and never had the gut issues i now had. I very much suspected Lamictal was the cause as i had started to get nauseous after taking it in the last year prior & so I tapered off it over the year. I also did a lot of research into gut health & i am extremely careful with what i eat.

I do believe it is the tapering of effexor that has caused my recent gut imbalance as i am very careful with my diet.

I count beads as my method & have been tapering at no more than 10% a month, my original dose was 450mg. I tapered off this in 2012 down to 187.5 by 2013 which was too fast. I then managed to reduce it from 187.5 to 75mg in 2015/2016. My gut problems miraculously slowly resolved in the last 6 months by using a variety of strategies to improve gut health including adopting a very clean diet including probiotics and prebiotics -  Kefir, bone broth as you rightly pointed out! fermented foods, organic fruit and vegetables, avoiding irritant foods, multivitamins & clean water.  I am currently at 60mg but it will still take me over a year at best to get off it and the GI side effects are not tolerable.

That's why I am still thinking about the Prozac bridge. Thankyou for all the info and graphs i really appreciate it. I am going to think carefully over what to do next.

[peng]

You have done incredibly well tapering effexor from 450mg to 60mg, lucidityreturn!

As a gastric problem sufferer for most of my life, and on PPIs like mammaP, as well as an effexor victim, I agree with the good lady.  Reportedly, the Prozac bridge can be troublesome to the point of disasterous, too.

 

I reiterate, 450 down to 60mg is wonderful.  Stay with the beast until you can sneak away from it, perhaps.  Zero mg is not achievable for everyone, IMO, but getting rid of 390mg per day has to be viewed as a towering success.  I would not ditch such a massive achievement with the effexor in an, albeit understandable, straw-clutching shift of tactics.  

 

I believe quite a bit of my stomach problems were linked to my depression.  I had the GI camera probe several times.  "A bit of inflammation only"  seems to be the verdict for some of us.  An operation on the valve at the bottom of the gullet helped considerably, but may not last for decades.  

 

Like mammaP, I tried turmeric, and I had to send it back for a refund!  I can eat and drink many more things than I could before (probiotic may help that), but get bitten hard if I make bad choices.

 

Best wishes,

peng.

[lucidityreturn]

Hi Peng, thankyou very much for your reply and advise, I really appreciated it!

You are right about looking how far I have come and not discounting the achievement I have already made to get down from 450mg to 60mg Effexor. Though it has to be said, been a real struggle - as we all know here!

After reading further the links from MammaP and considering your both your advise I have decided to give up on the idea of a prozac bridge and will continue a very slow taper of the effexor. Prozacseems to have its own problems and also seems to create gut issues as well!

I am going to hold my current dose for awhile to see if stabilizing helps with my GI problems.

I am resigned to continue a long slow taper even though it may take another 2 years, it's depressing but better than anything else!

Thankyou again Peng and MammaP for your wisdom and support I wish you both the best.

[peng]

Remember, lucidityreturn, some of the supplements can give those of us with delicate guts an "upset stomach".

I see in your profile you are taking a multivit PLUS other supplements.

I was told on here to leave out the multivit, as if you are taking other vit supplements as well, that can be too much.  I think it was good advice - those multivits can have a powerful smell and taste.  Maybe that is not really a problem - it's just my instinctive view after a lifetime of stomach trouble.

 

I, myself, believe I have had digestion problems with Vitamin C, iron, citrus and things like lettuce, even.

 

Hopefully for you, a moderator will be able to possibly confirm or refine what I am saying.

 

Best wishes.

[nz11]

Lucid a gentle reminder its only one intro thread per person.

 

20 minutes ago, lucidityreturn said:

Hi there all fellow warriors,

 

I have been doing the 10% effexor taper for the last year and currently am at 33mg effexor.

I have been experiencing long term fatigue and been working with my GP to identify any possible causes. 

Have been doing a complete physical workup to check my health. Just got results back and I have quite significant hyponatremia (electrolyte imbalance) all physical causes have been ruled out - it is drug induced & the culprit is the damn effexor. The drug is causing a syndrome of inappropriate secretion of diuretic hormone ( SIADH )

Medical protocol for drug induced hyponatremia is to remove the drug responsible.

My Dr wants me off effexor and sooner than later. My Doctor is aware of my taper but wants me off effexor much sooner than my taper schedule.

I also really want off the drug but I am scared about gonig cold turkey or even withdrawing faster - I'm seeing my Dr again next week to discuss further.

Maybe as my dose is only 3mg i will be ok with stopping more quickly but from what i have read here everyone says to go more slowly - on that schedule it would be another year at least before i'm finished tapering and it seems now i have medical complications from taking the drug this is no longer viable.

I feel afraid, any advise most welcome!

 

 

[lucidityreturn]

ok sorry i didn't realise that only one thread allowed in Introductions.

Thanks for alerting me.

[lucidityreturn]

On 7/23/2017 at 10:42 PM, peng said:

Remember, lucidityreturn, some of the supplements can give those of us with delicate guts an "upset stomach".

I see in your profile you are taking a multivit PLUS other supplements.

I was told on here to leave out the multivit, as if you are taking other vit supplements as well, that can be too much.  I think it was good advice - those multivits can have a powerful smell and taste.  Maybe that is not really a problem - it's just my instinctive view after a lifetime of stomach trouble.

 

I, myself, believe I have had digestion problems with Vitamin C, iron, citrus and things like lettuce, even.

 

Hopefully for you, a moderator will be able to possibly confirm or refine what I am saying.

 

Best wishes.

Hi Peng,

Thankyou very much for your helpful reply I'm sorry for my long delay in reply. I removed a lot of supplements I was taking as a result. My GI symptoms have continued to be up and down in severity over the last 6 months.

I hope you are doing well.

[nz11]

I assume the 3mg of Effexor is a typo and it should be 33mg right?

 

Personally unless this is life threatening then you should taper slow.

 

33mg will need just over three years to get to 0.5mg travelling at a 10% taper speed.

 

If your doctor wants you off much faster than this then ask him what his plan  for you is should the wdl symptoms become so traumatizing you cant cope anymore and want to go to hospital. - a new diagnonsense??

You will get more drugs and it will be a return to 2012 all over again. 

[lucidityreturn]

Hi nz11,

 

Thankyou for your reply, you are right - it was my typo 3mg was meant to be 33mg.

This is a serious potentially life threatening condition - worst case - seizures, coma, death.

You are possibly right that it could be 2012 over again but I may have no choice but to discontinue.

This is a horrible situation i'm in and i wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

 

 

 

 

 

[nz11]

Lucid  may i ask how you are planning to survive wdl symptoms and 'cannot function properly' from a too fast taper? 

For that also is a life threatening medical emergency.

 

13 minutes ago, lucidityreturn said:

serious potentially life threatening condition - worst case - seizures, coma, death.

okay but wouldn't the chance (potentiality) of this decrease with a lowering over time of the dose?

Is this an immediate life threatening condition?...sorry I'm not a doctor.

 

 

I'm sorry but given your extensive history the only way i can see the medical profession  relieving wdl horror  is to hit the cns real hard with a cocktail of chemicals. Which to me seems to be a backward step into an even deeper minefield. 

Sorry you are in this difficult situation.

[lucidityreturn]

ok thankyou for your reply and you make good points.

I don't know how i will cope.

I don't want to die from w/d or die by staying on the medication.

I don't think its immediately life threatening otherwise my Doctor would have called an ambulance.

I have an excellent GP who is aware of the difficulties of antidepressant w/d and that they are still recommending I discontinue makes me think there are significant risks involved in staying on it. The medical papers i looked over state that the condition improves when the drug is removed - i'm not sure if it is improved by tapering i will have to research further.

I am mentally much better than i was in 2012 as i had a very bad year (outside of withdrawal) so maybe i would fare better this time around.

I don't have insurance to go to hospital to w/d and I agree with you the last thing i want is more 'diagnosence' and medications.

I'm very scared, trying to not panic.

Thankyou for taking the time to reply.

 

 

[nz11]

37 minutes ago, lucidityreturn said:

i had a very bad year (outside of withdrawal) so maybe i would fare better this time around.

I don't know so much.

This is a typical and common example of one of the many forms of medication spellbinding ..the thinking that the distress was not caused by wdl but rather  by stressors, other people or yourself.

I'm not saying that stressors cant make things worse they can but you may be giving too much weight  to stressors. Even if stressors where zero i think the outcome imo would have been the same.

Just thinking out loud here but you are on two drugs so how do they know this is caused by the Effexor and not the Seroquel? Sorry if this is a silly question.

 

 

 

 

[lucidityreturn]

hi nz11

thanks for your input -

no really 2012 was a very bad year in terms a series of traumatic life events that occurred starting before my tapering of medications.

Effexor / venlafaxine has hyponatremia as a listed potential adverse side effect that's why my GP believes it to be likely the culprit.

Seroquel also has this listed as a side effect also - I asked my Dr & they said effexor more likely im not sure why.

Thanks for replying and your ideas - i appreciate it

 

 

 

 

 

[nz11]

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 1:08 AM, lucidityreturn said:

Effexor / venlafaxine has hyponatremia as a listed potential adverse side effect that's why my GP believes it to be likely the culprit.

Seroquel also has this listed as a side effect also - I asked my Dr & they said effexor more likely im not sure why.

Okay if that is what the doctor believes then sobeit.

Heres a thought you have been on Effexor for many many years but never had hyponatremia. Lets just call it xyz.

We know that Effexor and Seroquel cause xyz. 

prior to the introduction of Seroquel you did not have xyz but have only developed it recently. Would it not be logical to assume xyz is due to Seroquel?

 

I'm with you I'm not sure why for iro Effexor either. Maybe a good qu to ask doctor ...why Effexor? Never could understand doctor logic.

 

nz11

Just recently i had a dream i was granted one wish so i asked for a bridge to be built from nz to aussie. No said the fairy are you crazy i cant do that ... whats your second wish  so i said okay id like to understand doctor logic. Fairy replied, How wide do you want that bridge! 

 

 

 

 

[lucidityreturn]

nz11 Thanks for your input - good points - been on seroquel for years too, could be both that are causing it. By the way I'm from NZ as well originally!

hope you are doing well nz11

update - my condition is not critical which is a huge relief ! But am now on fluid restriction & monthly blood tests

Doc has urged me to get off effexor & seroquel - I am trying to explain i am tapering off slowly by 10% a month, Dr has not heard of this before & wants to possibly switch me onto another ssri. This is something I would like to avoid.

Very hard here in Australia to find medical professionals who are aware of ssri withdrawal and the necessity to taper slowly - let alone ones that will support you in coming off meds!!

Currently at 31mg effexor. Experiencing mostly negative emotions and definitely getting windows and waves.

Feeling lost and alone, keep thinking what ifs, wishing things were different and imagining the life i could have had if i had never been made to take psych drugs at 21. I think my life would have been much better. Sad i am alone.

 

 

 

 

[DMV64]

12 minutes ago, lucidityreturn said:

Feeling lost and alone,

Hi lucidityreturn!

I know that feeling. Just reading some of your thread...you are not alone! Sometimes in the world out there it feels like everyone else is "normal" and then I come here and see there are many people just like me. Hiding in plain sight! Hope you are feeling good today. 

-D

[lucidityreturn]

Hi DMV64 i am sorry for the delay in my reply I wanted to thank you for your kind words & support - it really meant alot to me

 

[lucidityreturn]

Hi to any one reading this, I haven't updated in a while and any advise would be much appreciated...

I have still been continuing to taper effexor at 10% a month and had tapered seroquel to 25mg by the end of last year.

In the last few months I have run into trouble with seroquel, despite being on it for years and years with no difficulties I began to get severe panic attacks after taking it night.

Saw my Dr who recommended i stop taking it immediately.

I know it was not ideal to stop taking any psych drug suddenly but the panic attacks were unbearable & manufacturer recommends you see your dr straight away, which I did, and in their opinion i needed to discontinue it immediately. My last dose was 18.75mg then nothing. It has been nearly a month since I had to quit and I have had severe insomnia.

I started taking melatonin which has helped somewhat & i am getting sleep but its broken and often not till very late 3-4-5am - lucky I do not work currently as I couldn't hold down a job with this going on.

I dropped another 10% of effexor on the 20th Feb and in the last week have felt like the wheels have come off for me so to speak in terms of mentally coping - very high anxiety, feeling very depressed at times, unable to think clearly, increased social anxiety and difficulty with everyday tasks which makes thing hard ( i live alone)

Also I'm not sure if i have a stomach bug but i have been having constant low grade nausea and decreased appetite.

I'm not sure what to do - go up again to previous dose on effexor maybe?

Many thanks for any help!

[ChessieCat]

Please simplify and update your signature as per these instructions.  The mods sometimes experience cog fog and like to be able to see your drug history at a glance without having to find it in amongst the sentences.  Thank you.

 

If you wish to keep the information which is currently in your signature, copy and paste it into a post before creating a new one.

 

Please keep it nice and simple.  We only need details for the last 2 years.  Date, drug and dose only, no symptoms or diagnoses.  The other years can just be an overview.  

 

This is the preferred format which is helpful for the mods.  Thank you.

 

A request: Would you summarize your history in a signature - ALL drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements, in the last 2 years particularly?

• Please leave out symptoms and diagnoses.
• A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs. 

• Any drugs prior to 2 years ago can just be listed with start and stop years.
• Please use actual dates or approximate dates (mid-June, Late October) rather than relative time frames (last week, 3 months ago)
• Spell out months, e.g. "October" or "Oct."; 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as Jan. 9, 2016 or Sept. 1, 2016.
• Link to Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.Before you begin tapering what you need to know

[lucidityreturn]

Hi Chessie Cat

 

Thankyou for the recommendations on changes to my signature - i have made the changes you advised

Please let me know if i need to change anything further

Thanks again

 

[ChessieCat]

Thank you, that is soooooo much better! 

[ChessieCat]

Q:  Did the panic attacks cease after you stopped seroquel?

[lucidityreturn]

Thankyou Chessiecat

Glad to know my signature is improved!

In response to your question, yes the panic attacks have ceased since I stopped the seroquel. The main symptoms I had with the seroquel was feeling like i couldn't breathe and feeling very internally agitated & completely panicked like I was going to die.

I do now have a bit of an anxiety response sometimes though at night in fear I will have more panic attacks but they haven't reoccurred. I am very cautious though about taking any medications now that slow breathing i.e. I had terrible physical pain recently and had to take codeine (panadeine forte) & was very scared as it also has a sedating effect.

 

 

[Altostrata]

Hello, LR. It sounds like lack of sleep is the primary fallout from going off Seroquel?

 

It's a good sign that you're sleeping somewhat. Do you also follow other sleep hygiene practices described in Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems ?

 

Please stop tapering Effexor for now, that could be adding to your symptoms. If necessary, you might updose slightly.

 

Never make a drug change when you're still struggling with the results of a prior drug change.

[lucidityreturn]

 

Thankyou very much Altrostrata for your very wise advice regarding sleep hygiene practices & to stop tapering effexor.

Sorry for the long delay in reply.

Update - Still successfully off seroquel !

My sleep has taken a long time to normalize & but it is better, I was traveling ok & remained on the same dose of 25mg effexor. 

Unfortunately I got cellulitis on my eye lid at the end of May & ended up on 2 weeks of high dose antibiotics & when I came off them I was very sick. I have had increased anxiety, dizziness, very bad gut pain, bloating & constant burping. I tried different probiotics but it didnt help & even foods i used to be able to eat i now cannot.

I have been tested for gut parasites & h pylori & all negative. I am seeing a GI specialist & for the last month I have been on special antibiotics for gut dybiosis / sibo - i havent had much relief yet. Am going back to GI specialist next week to look at getting endoscopy to rule out other causes.

I have had terrible anxiety throughout this time and now getting recurrent panic attacks, am feeling more depressed & had suicidal and intrusive thoughts.

At suggestion of my parents (after I had a terrible last 2 days of panic attacks where I was so distressed I nearly went to hospital) to have increased my effexor back up to 37.5mg from my current dose of 25mg (on for the past 5 months) 

My question is if this is too much of an increase?

I feel today better but jittery & body energy surges & my thoughts have been racing this afternoon. I really need to get a handle on my anxiety.

Please any help so much appreciated!!

 

 

[lucidityreturn]

Just had a bad night with uncomfortable sensations i attribute to raising the effexor dose by too much ( was on 25mg for last 5 months & raised it back to 37.5mg) - sweats, chills, jerking awake, anxiety, muscle stiffness & teeth grinding.

I haven't had any responses yet so today I did my best guess of dosage & settled on roughly 29- 30mg instead.

Hoping this will be enough to lift me out of the terrible anxiety i was experiencing but not too much to give me side effects from too high dose.

 

[lucidityreturn]

Hi if anyone's there - im very worried im having very stiff muscles in my neck & jaw & worried im having a bad reaction from the effexor - wondering if this is serious - what to do?

Any help much appreciated!!

[Kostas]

6 hours ago, lucidityreturn said:

Hi if anyone's there - im very worried im having very stiff muscles in my neck & jaw & worried im having a bad reaction from the effexor - wondering if this is serious - what to do?

Any help much appreciated!!

HI Lucy, 

until someone from the mods give you a better answer, the muscle /jaw issues you just mentioned, are usually side effects of starting /stopping an AD, than adverse reaction to the drug. 

Hopefully you will have soon the right feedback. 

Take care. 

[Carmie]

Hi Lucidity, 

 

I’m sorry about your jaw. I see you had to cold turkey off seroquel this year due to bad effects. That was only five months ago. There is no rhyme or reason to symptoms as they’re all over the place, nothing is linear with withdrawals.

 

Im still tapering seroquel n even small tapers cause me problems. You could be getting a delayed withdrawal p, especially with cold turkey. 

 

I dont know anything about Effexor but just ask your question again n I’m sure the mods will answer soon. Most of them are really sick n struggling themselves. 

 

Sending hugs🤗