Enrico2910: member from Italy

[enrico2910]

Hi all, 

 

I would like to introduce myself to the community. I am Enrico from Italy. You will forgive me for my english as I am not a mother tongue.  A week ago I've read an article (link is here for the sack of clatiy: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4197460/Could-antidepressants-damage-brain.html), so I decided that now it's time to try to get off of this ****. 

 

My story will look like similat to many others in this community, but I will sum up as a good introduction:

 

- in 2009 I had my first panic attack. Before of this I visited practically all medical specialists to undertsand what was going on (heart specialists, urologists, gastroenterologist, etc.). I was healthy, not wrong with my body, but anxiety was growing up and one day suddenly a bomb: a panic attack. I fall down into depression for several months. I abandoned my studies... I felt like my life was going to be ruined for ever. I decided to go to psychiatric specialist since I was avoiding him with difficulties to admit I had mental problems. I prescribed me Celexa (Citalopram) till 80 mg die. I came back to my studies. I got a degree in economics cum laude. I was fine, but somehow I recognized my brain was no so brilliant an lucid as before.

- in 2011 I got my first job. I was happy so I decided to quit Celexa. I lasted one year, I was fine. My delayed eiaculation disappeared, but I dind't recognize that my cognitive problems were there. i didn't really handle with them because of Celexa. In 2012, winter, I fall to another depression period. I started to take celexa again.

- From 2012 to 2015 I took 80 mg of Celexa each day. I was fine. I changed job, my career was growing up both with my salary. Now I had enough money to start a cognitive behavhiour therapy. 

- 2016. Therapy taugh me a lot. How to manage and recognize my feelings. I was enough strong now to start my tapering process. 

- from 2016 to yesterday I dropped off Celexa from 80 mg to 32 mg. Anxiety started to grow up, bu I made many changes in my life so I was finally able to manage it. Unfortunately delayed eiaculation problems persisted. 

- Today. I dropped off to 20 mg. I subscribed myself to this community. I will continue CBT therapies and I will look for a psychiatric to taper celexa from 20 mg to 0. 

 

Ony my fears are I damaged my brain forever and I will never heal it.

 

E.

Edited August 2, 2017 by mammaP
Added name to title

[mammaP]

Hi Enrico, welcome to SA.  

Well done for tapering from 80 mg to 32 mg. Anxiety is a part of withdrawal and when you feel any symptoms it is best to hold the dose so that your brain can catch up. 

The recent drop from 32 to 20 is a very large drop and we would recommend going back to 32 for a while. I tapered effexor for a year and had withdrawal when I finally quit because I tapered too fast and my brain couldn't adjust to the doses as fast as I was cutting them. We have many, many people who join us when they have withdrawal from tapering too fast. I would stay at 32 for a few weeks, then if you are not feeling any symptoms of withdrawal or anxiety you can start to taper again. 

 

Sadly most doctors do not know about tapering and say that it is the illness that has returned when people go into withdrawal. They then prescribe other drugs and the person ends up on a cocktail of drugs that makes them very sick, like Luke, the man in the newspaper story. If you hold at 32, then taper slowly you will be able to get off citalopram without problems. If you continue to rush the taper you could end up very sick and having to go back on again. You have not damaged your brain, tapering slowly will allow it to recover but there is no parmanent damage.

 

I will post some links to topics for you. I am so glad that you joined us, we are all tapering here, or in withdrawal so we understand your fears and feelings. 

 

Tapering celexa

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2023-tips-for-tapering-off-celexa-citalopram/page__pid__19887#entry19887

 

Making a liquid from celexa

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2022-making-a-celexa-solution-yourself

 

3 KIS 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6632-the-rule-of-3kis-keep-it-simple-keep-it-slow-keep-it-stable/

 

Withdrawal syndrome 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/603-what-is-withdrawal-syndrome/

 

Would you please fill in your signature with your drug and tapering history,  you will find the signature box here... fill it in and click save. Thank you. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/settings/signature/

[enrico2910]

I started to cry after reading your post. You gave me a lot of hope. I can do it with you guys. I will follow your suggestions. I will come back to 32 mg. 8 drops this evening. I am an anxious person, but I treated my anxiety as an illness instead of a feeling. Now I am learning. 

 

I will write my story in my signature.

 

How do you feel now?

 

E.

[enrico2910]

I read some scary stories about brain permanent damage of SSRIs. Doctot Shipko frightned me a lot.

 

I am now on Celexa, 32 mg.

 

What do you think about it?

Edited August 5, 2017 by scallywag
merged topics

[Why]

Hi Enrico, are you italian? If so we can talk a bit in private.

 

By the way, i think while drugs cause brain damage, no one can say this damage is permanent .

Many people healed almost totally after years , so at least in their case the damage was not permanent and they now conduct an healthier and more joyful life than ever.

[enrico2910]

Hi guys, 

 

It passed 1 year and half since my last post. I followed your suggestions to taper off slowly from 32 to 24. I did it and I am happy. This evening i tapered off 2 mg, so from 12 drops to 11 drops. I just wanted to share this accomplishment with you.

 

E.

 

[ChessieCat]

That's good news.  Thank you for coming back to update us.  It is appreciated.

[enrico2910]

7 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

That's good news.  Thank you for coming back to update us.  It is appreciated.

 

Thank you. I forgot to mention my delayed eiaculation disappeared and I am  free from benzo for 4 years. I should keep going on. 24 mg of citalopram now is a mimimum therapautical dose but it's not 0!!!!

[Altostrata]

Thanks, enrico. What do you mean by "mimimum therapeutical dose"?

 

Drug companies recommend  specific dosages, but whatever works for you is your "therapeutic dose." If the drug makes you feel ill at any dose, it's not therapeutic. If an antidepressant is not accomplishing what you expect from it, it's not therapeutic. If whatever symptoms caused you to take an antidepressant can be managed by you without drugs, your therapeutic dose is zero.

[enrico2910]

Hi guys an members of the community. 

I would like to give you a big update, hoping that informations and experiences I collected could be useful for someone. 

 

From Jan 2019 to April 2019 I moved from 12 drops of liquid Citalopram to 10 drops (20mg). I agree with  @Altostrata: no "therapeutic dose" exists. I am motivated to going off to zero dose of citalopram, this is my therapeutic receipt. 

 

Anyway in May 2019 I started to experience depression, confusion, mild depersonalization and derealization, pure - obsessions about the nature of my job (why we work, which is the sense of this?), felling of tiredness, severe insomnia and anhedonia. Severe gastrointestinal issues. I though it was the sign of citalopram withdrawal, but I was motivated to understand better. My psychotherapist dint't have a clue on what was going on. 

 

Middle of May 2019 I got blood test and I discovered high homocysteine (31 µmol/L - max range 12). I rechecked my old blood test (2014) and the level of Homocysteine was 39 µmol/L. Family doctor didn't give it any importance. 

 

I've read some books about methilation of DNA/RNA and I got a blood test for vitamin b6, b9 (folic acid), b12, vitamin D. All of these vitamin were seriously depleted (important deficiency) apart from vitamin b12 whose level was bordeline.  Moreover HG (Hemoglobin) was  high (17 g/dl - max range 16.5),  LDL was high, zinc and magnesium were deficient.  For minerals and toxic metal I performed an hair test (still waiting results). 

 

I continued in my analysis: 

 

- Gastrointestinal problems (GERD confirmed by an innovative blood test).

- Microbioma (still waiting)

- Genetic test (23&me plus a doctor I found in Milan).

- Testosterone (still waiting).

- Histamine (still waiting).

- Cryptopirroluria (still waiting).

- MTHFR --> And this is the most important discovery I did about my genetic for now: homozygous MTHFR c667T (It mans I am not able to convert Folic acid in the bioavailable form used by my body which is methilfolate).

 

A functional doctro prescribled me B-Complex vitamins + vitamin D. 

 

- Week 1: no results at all. Continuing to experience all issue I listed above. 

- Week 2: I started to feel good. More lucid (my brain fog decreased). Less tired (sleep was starting to improve). And the most important event: I was listening a song "that's a heartache" and I felt a huge emotion (goose bumps). Emotions that were buried by the citalopram for years.

 

- Week3: the hell started. I started to feel a strange interaction with something. I remembered that feeling first time I got a capsule of 20mg citalopram in 2009 and I felt strange, very derealized, unable to focus. That dose was too much for me to start with the drug.  Is this possibile that vitamin B which I was extremely deficient started to produce neurotrasmitters in a natural way that feed the citalopram? I don't know, but I remember that feeling I felt first time I took 20mg citalopram capsule for the very first time. 

 

Due to this hypothetical interaction I had to reduce vitamin b complex dosage (incredible!!!!). I hat to reduce natural stuff in favor of the citalopram. Interaction diminished (less intense) and methilfolate gave me some hours of freedom (me coming back for the very first time). 

 

4 days ago I woke up and cut off citalopram dosage from 20mg to 10 mg. I wanted to take more vitamin b, vitamin d thant citalopram. I felt good after the first week of vitamin b so I was motivated to scale down the citalopram dosage faster. Of course no doctors in Italy have a clue about SSRIs withdrawal and so on. This forum saved me to make huge mistakes.

 

But I did. I scaled down too fast and today I've esperienced first sign of PSSD (no pleasure at all during masturbation, pretty scaring, really). 

 

After the mastrubation I came back to 20 mg :(. 

 

I feelt like I am stucked: I need vitamin B to restore my body. I am really deficient of them, but I cannot take them in the right dosage beucase they started to interact with the citalopram and I cannot scale down faster. You are right the microtapering is the only solution. 

 

I hope I haven't ruined my orgasm forever.

 

This is my update. Someone have experienced methilfolate interaction with SSRIs, It's possibile?

 

Edited July 6, 2019 by ChessieCat
removed ******* & changed caps to l/case

[manymoretodays]

Hi enrico2910,

Let me know, if you are okay with me transferring your questions posed in PM here? 

Or if you can, go ahead and copy that post, over to here please.

 

Then I'll get back to you when I get a chance, with further input.

 

It does sound like you might be adding a bit much, all at once.

All for now,

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

[manymoretodays]

17 hours ago, enrico2910 said:

4 days ago I woke up and cut off citalopram dosage from 20mg to 10 mg. I wanted to take more vitamin b, vitamin d thant citalopram. I felt good after the first week of vitamin b so I was motivated to scale down the citalopram dosage faster. Of course no doctors in Italy have a clue about SSRIs withdrawal and so on. This forum saved me to make huge mistakes.

 

Hi enrico,

I am just going to go on what is out here on your introduction for now.

 

 

I'm seeing this in your signature:

May 2019: 10 drops, 20 mg. I got positive for MTHFR homozygous C677T. Deficiency in Vit. B9, B6, D, borderline for Vit. B12 . Major mistake: from 20mg to 10mg in just 3weeks in favor of natural supplements. Struggling to find a balance between supplements and Citalopram reinstatement. 

 

Did you do a 50% reduction of your citalopram, in 3 weeks, and then go back up to 20 mg?

Your most recent quoted post is saying that you did a 50% reduction 4 days ago.

Could you clarify your most recent citalopram changes?

 

When did you begin to add the vitamins, and the L- methylfolate? 

 

Vitamin B12: essential for mood, nervous system

there is some more information ^ on the MTHFR variations.

When I first came here, I cut back my L- methylfolate intake.  I was already pretty activated, in an uncomfortable way.  Could not think straight, pacing at times, and some very tough acute WD symptoms.   At that point, however, I was no longer on an AD(antidepressant), and was on 2 other medications in different classes.  So, obviously I was not experiencing a L- methylfolate  interaction with an SSRI.  I was, however, experiencing WD from another medication.  And I felt that the L-methyl may have been a bit too much at that time.   I reduced my daily amount taken.

 

What to do if you can't tolerate a vitamin B12 supplement?

Some people do have difficulty taking B12 supplements and other B vitamin supplements -- they find the B vitamins in this form cause surges of anxiety, palpitations, sleeplessness, etc. (symptoms of nervous system activation).

(extracted from the link)

 

I'm most concerned with your recent citalopram reduction, right now.  Are you having any other WD symptoms now, besides the PSSD you mention?

Dr. Glenmullen's withdrawal symptom checklist

 

I'll also refer you back to mammaP's initial post to you, and the links on the 3KI's and What is withdrawal syndrome.

Just one addition of something, or one tapering change at a time, is best.

 

Important topics about tests, supplements, treatments, diet

take a look at the first post there ^

 

We generally only recommend the use of 2 supplements here, during tapering and WD:

King of Supplements, Omega-3 fatty acids(fish oil)

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker

 

Many members find these to be more calming than activating.

And again, the addition of just one thing at a time, is advised.  As well as keeping some form of notes, so that you will be more sure of what change, might be causing what symptom.

 

If you could clarify a bit more, enrico, that would be helpful.  As you might benefit from a small reinstatement of your  citalopram.
About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

All for now.

And let us know too, how well you do with the information above, if there are any language barriers.  Okay?

 

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2019 by manymoretodays
grammar corrections, further comment

[Sassenach]

Hi Enrico and welcome.

Thank you for you post to Witsend but please do not recommend meds to other members.

The purpose of this site is to help members get off meds and only the senior mods have knowledge of interactions etc.

 

Sassenach 

[enrico2910]

Thank you for your reply. I will try to clarify. 

 

I tapered down from 80mg to 20mg very very gentle (from 2015 to Jan 2019). I read everything in this forum so I was aware. I dind't experience any WD (e.g. zero brain zaps, and I am aware of WDs as I experienced them). But I dind't feel good: depression, confusion, mild depersonalization and derealization, pure - O, felling of tiredness, severe insomnia and anhedonia. Severe gastrointestinal issues. I knew they are not WDs symphtoms so I got checked.

 

Here my blood test:

 

- Vit. D : 12 ng/ml Deficiency

- Vit B12 : 268 pg/ml ( range 191-663) Borderline

- Vit B6 :  2 ng/l (range 3,60 - 18) Deficiency 

- Vit B9 (FOLIC ACID): 2,18 ng/ml (range 4,60 - 18,70) Deficiency

- Homocysteine : 31,39 (range 5-12) Very high. It was high even in 2014 (39) but family doctor din't give it any importance. 

 

Apart from this: bordeline for Zinc, deficiency in Copper and Magnesium, High HB, high LDL. 

 

• So 3 weeks ago I started to take B-DYN (https://www.metagenics.eu/it/95/consumer/59/117/modules/products.phtml?id=2582), Plus Vit D3 5.400 ui. 
• 2 Weeks ago all this stuff started to interact with citalopram. As you said (Could not think straight), but I felt great (lucid, less derealization/dep, emotional alive).
  • So i dediced to taper from 20mg to 18mg (from 19 June to 26 June ) NO WDs and less interaction with B-complex but still Huge. I even started to feel good.
• 1 Weeks ago I bought liquid vitamin complex as I was aware that too much stuff all togheter and really huge doses of this complex was detrimental. I swtiched to this protocol:
  • 100 mcg of L-Methilfolate (B9) (tiny dose).
  • 100 mcg of Cobalamina (B9) (tiny dose).
  • 1,2 mg of Pyroxidine (B6) (really tiny dose)
  • Vit D 100 ui (tiny dose) 

Again interaction still present. So I decided to taper down from 18mg to 16 mg (from 26 June to 31 June) No Wds and less interaction, still present but more managable. 

 

• 4 days ago I was very upset of this interaction. I like the effect of b vitamin (I feel alive) and incredible beard started to grow up togheter with chest hair. I really started to think I was cured with SSRI for some form of vitamin and mineral deficiencies. Coming back to 2019 my symphtoms were the same I described above. I was angry with doctors and motivated to eliminate citalopram ASAP so I taper down from 16mg to 10 mg. 3 days after WDs kicked in. Apart from PSSD (severe) other symphtoms are mild (sweating, chills, a bit of irritability, mild sadness, moderate anxiety).

I am quite good in statistics so I would like to share with you this graph that can explain interaction between SSRI and B complex, in this case L-Mehilfolate) - trying to help someone in the same condition:

 

8 AM --> TAKING L-METHILFOLATE (BLU CURVE). It's bioavailable (Qaterfolic - DEPLIN IS A HUGE HUGE HUGE bullsh*t to make money. 7,5 mg dosage. They are crazy) so it's suddenly available to out body. Effect duration is 10h with a peak at the fourth hour. Feeling great, really great. Goose bumps, emotional alive.

10 AM --> TAKING CITALOPRAM (ORANGE CURVE). Effect duration 10h with a peak after 4 hours. 

 

the 2 curves encounters each others at t=4. 8AM + t=4= 12 AM. At 12 AM like the best swiss clock interaction starts and it endures 3h. Time that the effect of methilfolate is reduced. 

 

I can't wake up during the night to take citalopram. So the best I can do is to delay dosage of citalopram of 2h (10am) respect to methilfoltate (8am) to reduce interactions. 

 

for @Altostrata I've read you suggest to eat a lot of vegetables if homoxygous for MTHFR. And this is exactly my diet. I am italian so since I was born I was taught to eat according to mediterranean style (2-3 fruits per day, a lot of vegetables everyday, lunch and dinner). This could mean that:

1) I have a problem of malabsorption (waiting for Microbioma tests), or 2) not all polimofirms are equal. Genetic tests are qualitative not quantitative. If you got MTHFR homozigous C667T means that you genes can convert folic acid to methilfolate with a efficiency ranged from 20% to 70%. But we cannot know simply reading genetic tests. The only way is to check blood folate levels and homocysteine. If you are lucky your MTHFR works at 60% so integrating vegetables in your diet can compensate quite good. If you are unlucky your gene works at 20%. You should eat 5X the reccomended vegetable intake. It's impossibile to became a cow:).

 

[enrico2910]

46 minutes ago, Sassenach said:

Hi Enrico and welcome.

Thank you for you post to Witsend but please do not recommend meds to other members.

The purpose of this site is to help members get off meds and only the senior mods have knowledge of interactions etc.

 

Sassenach 

HI Sassenach, 

I don't want to reccomend any meds My aim is indeed get off of SSRI. Sorry if it seems I wanted to suggest any kind of meds. My english is not so good. I am not a mother tongue. 

[Sassenach]

Hi Enrico.

 

Wish ny italian was as good as your english.

I understandyou just want to help but needed to point it out.

I see MMT is on your case so you are  in good hands.

 

Sassenach

[enrico2910]

2 minutes ago, Sassenach said:

Hi Enrico.

 

Wish ny italian was as good as your english.

I understandyou just want to help but needed to point it out.

I see MMT is on your case so you are  in good hands.

 

Sassenach

 Thank you very much!

[Altostrata]

On 7/5/2019 at 3:35 AM, enrico2910 said:

A functional doctro prescribled me B-Complex vitamins + vitamin D. 

 

- Week 1: no results at all. Continuing to experience all issue I listed above. 

- Week 2: I started to feel good. More lucid (my brain fog decreased). Less tired (sleep was starting to improve). And the most important event: I was listening a song "that's a heartache" and I felt a huge emotion (goose bumps). Emotions that were buried by the citalopram for years.

 

- Week3: the hell started. I started to feel a strange interaction with something. I remembered that feeling first time I got a capsule of 20mg citalopram in 2009 and I felt strange, very derealized, unable to focus. That dose was too much for me to start with the drug.  Is this possibile that vitamin B which I was extremely deficient started to produce neurotrasmitters in a natural way that feed the citalopram? I don't know, but I remember that feeling I felt first time I took 20mg citalopram capsule for the very first time. 

 

Due to this hypothetical interaction I had to reduce vitamin b complex dosage (incredible!!!!).

 

This is not incredible. We know people may find B vitamins to be activating.

 

My guess is you were low in B vitamins. I don't know what the cause might be, it may or may not be related to your MTHFR variation. When you started taking the B vitamin supplement, it took about a week for it to affect your blood levels, then you felt better. When you continued to take it, you experienced activation from TOO MUCH B vitamins.

 

If you can cut the B supplement tablet into fourths, a quarter-dosage might be enough of a maintenance dose.

 

This is NOT an interaction with citalopram, it's a correction of a vitamin deficiency. Cutting your citalopram dosage from 20mg to 10mg triggered withdrawal symptoms, including sexual dysfunction, as those kinds of reductions so often do. Your chart is a very good chart but is not relevant to withdrawal symptoms.

 

How much citalopram are you taking now?

[enrico2910]

26 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

 

This is not incredible. We know people may find B vitamins to be activating.

 

My guess is you were low in B vitamins. I don't know what the cause might be, it may or may not be related to your MTHFR variation. When you started taking the B vitamin supplement, it took about a week for it to affect your blood levels, then you felt better. When you continued to take it, you experienced activation from TOO MUCH B vitamins.

 

If you can cut the B supplement tablet into fourths, a quarter-dosage might be enough of a maintenance dose.

 

This is NOT an interaction with citalopram, it's a correction of a vitamin deficiency. Cutting your citalopram dosage from 20mg to 10mg triggered withdrawal symptoms, including sexual dysfunction, as those kinds of reductions so often do. Your chart is a very good chart but is not relevant to withdrawal symptoms.

 

How much citalopram are you taking now?

 

I tapered off in 3 weeks from 20mg to 16 mg(no WDs). Than from 16 mg to 10 mg all togheter (WDs after 4 days). I came back to 14mg  since 3 days. It's going better. If I can handle WDs I will stay on this otherwise I will come back to 16mg. Good approach?

 

I bought liquid B vitamins, I started again to take it with tiny dosage:

• 100 mcg of L-Methilfolate (B9) 
• 100 mcg of Cobalamina (B9) 
• 1,2 mg of Pyroxidine (B6) 
• Vit D 100 ui 

With liquid vitamins I can even further reduce the dosage, what you think? I think I make an other mistake taking half of dose once in the morning and once in the evening. If you confirm that they are activating maybe it's better to take full-dose in the morning?

 

I don't want to add any additional stuff, do you think magnesium and melatonin could help? I am  surely deficient in magnesium (blood test performed), not sure about melatonin.

 

Thank a lot.

 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

1 hour ago, enrico2910 said:

I tapered off in 3 weeks from 20mg to 16 mg(no WDs). Than from 16 mg to 10 mg all togheter (WDs after 4 days). I came back to 14mg  since 3 days. It's going better. If I can handle WDs I will stay on this otherwise I will come back to 16mg. Good approach?

 

If you feel that you need to updose you could try increasing by a very small amount not go back to 16mg.  It's already been about 1 week since you were taking 16mg and taking 16mg again might be too much. If you do increase it might be better to increase by only 0.25mg or 0.5mg.  You could take the majority of the dose in tablet and the extra little bit in liquid which you can make yourself.  See Tips for tapering off Celexa (citalopram)

[enrico2910]

Just a quick update:

I followed @ChessieCat suggestion to keep going on on 14 mg trying to avoid updose back to 16 mg. It's going well. Orgasm came back... a little bit difficult to reach but ok.

 

I dind't receive any reply by @Altostrata about when and how to take B-complex and D vitamins (as I need them because of a serious deficiency) so I made self experiment: I took full dose just in the morning to avoid activating my nervous system all day long and it works together with a reduction in dosage:

 

• 80 mcg of L-Methilfolate (B9) 
• 80 mcg of Cobalamina (B9) 
• 0,8 mg of Pyroxidine (B6) 
• Vit D 40 ui 

Melatonin 1mg helps me to sleep better with dreams but not vivid ones as I know are part of WDs sympthoms. 

 

Waiting for you guys if I can add Magnesium and fish oil to all this stuff I am taking. 

 

Meantime, as I like statistics, I've read forum suggestions and Horowitz's study, and I made my plan to taper off citalopram.

 

Blue line --> Dosage reduction

Yellow line --> Decrease of citalopram occupancy of SERT (%)

Reduction window --> 1 month. 

 

It will take more than 1 year to taper from 14 mg to zero. But before starting I will wait to stabilize everything. Sound good to you?

 

Thank you for your support. 

[Altostrata]

Please do not change more than one thing at a time. Please keep your citalopram dosing steady while you experiment with the B vitamin supplements.

 

On 7/6/2019 at 1:05 PM, enrico2910 said:

bought liquid B vitamins, I started again to take it with tiny dosage:

• 100 mcg of L-Methilfolate (B9) 
• 100 mcg of Cobalamina (B9) 
• 1,2 mg of Pyroxidine (B6) 
• Vit D 100 ui 

With liquid vitamins I can even further reduce the dosage, what you think? I think I make an other mistake taking half of dose once in the morning and once in the evening. If you confirm that they are activating maybe it's better to take full-dose in the morning?

 

I don't want to add any additional stuff, do you think magnesium and melatonin could help? I am  surely deficient in magnesium (blood test performed), not sure about melatonin.

 

If these small doses of supplements work without causing any side effects, you could stay on these doses. You'll have to decide for yourself if you're getting side effects. Any one or more of your 4 supplements can cause side effects. I would adjust one at a time to see what's causing what.

 

If you find them activating, you'd want to take them in the morning. A lot of this is common sense.

 

Yes, you can more effectively titrate with liquid vitamins. I cannot address what dosages you need for your vitamin deficiency.

 

I would not add magnesium and melatonin to the mix until you are sure the B vitamins are not causing any problems.

 

Change only one thing at a time. We suggest a 10% per month hyperbolic taper for convenience.

[ChessieCat]

8 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

I would not add magnesium and melatonin to the mix until you are sure the B vitamins are not causing any problems.

 

I think Alto meant to say magnesium and omega 3 fish oil.

 

1 hour ago, enrico2910 said:

I made my plan to taper off citalopram.

 

Blue line --> Dosage reduction

Yellow line --> Decrease of citalopram occupancy of SERT (%)

Reduction window --> 1 month. 

 

It will take more than 1 year to taper from 14 mg to zero.

 

When getting off psychiatric drugs it is suggested to throw out the calendar.  SA's recommendation is to taper no more than 10% of the current dose with at least a 4 week hold, holding for longer if you are experiencing symptoms and/or during times when there is additional stress/sickness.

 

Even though it will take longer than you want it too, it is better to go as slow as your body/brain needs you to go, than to go too quickly and get bad withdrawal symptoms.  Looking at it from the perspective that I am reducing my drug, not how long it is going to take, as well as the support I get from members here at SA, has helped me to stay patient and go slowly.

[manymoretodays]

Hi Enrico2910,

 

I'm not finding anything to add to the input, from Alto and ChessieCat, regarding your supplements and questions now.

 

It's important too, to begin to pick up some non-drug coping skills, for some of the things that might have been present prior to the medication(s)/drugs.

In general, how are you doing with anxiety/fear/panic type reactions now?

 

Happy to direct you towards some new coping skills.  And you may already have some in place.

 

Best,

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

[enrico2910]

Hi all,

 

hope this finds you well. 

 

I felt wonderful for about 1 week at the beginning of September. I felt again myself... So I tapered down from 12 mg to 10.5 - not in one shot, but over a period of 4 weeks. 

Exactly 25 days I quit smoking. 

 

After a trip to USA (6 hours time zone) - I came back on sunday 20th, I started to feel horrible as in July when I wrongly tapered from 20mg to 10 mg in a single shot.

 

Honestly I feel like I lost any hope, thinking that all of this will finish with my death - I am not thinking to kill myself but it's just a deep sense of despair. 

 

Is this a wave or quit smoking + long and stressfull job trip makes this? I had a bad idea to quit smoking in this period?

 

E.

 

 

 

 

[Gridley]

1 hour ago, enrico2910 said:

long and stressfull job trip makes this?

A long, stressful trip can definitely trigger symptoms.  Try to avoid stress as much as possible and be kind and gentle with yourself.  Things will get better.

[enrico2910]

Hi all, 

 

I guess I need some confort and advise:

 

I have been stable on 10.56 mg for 3 months because I quit smoking (one drug per time). The I've tapered from 10.56 mg  --> to 9.12 mg of fuc*** citalopram. After 19 days on 9.12mg dose, from one day to another, I lost my erectile function. 

 

Other changes:

 

• I have not taken my 2.000 mg of fish oil because I ran out of it from the last 3 days - from 25/12 to 28/12. I cannot see any correlation.
• Yesterday I tried  for my personal experimentation 10mg of lithium orotate. I felt calm, focused and lucid. I stopped immediately even I cannot see any correlation. 

From 20 mg to now, I've experienced a lot of side effect (crying spells, coordination problems, vertigo, feeling of detachment, depression, anxiety, insomnia, flu like sympthoms, etc. etc. etc.), but when this fuc*** drug touches my sexuality I go into despair ad my life is lost for ever without point of return.

 

When I tapered from 20 mg to 10 mg in May, I experienced an horrible side effect (pleasurless orgams) with strong erection, now I have the opposite... Non existent erection but more longer than usual orgasm. What you think? It's related to citalopram withdrawal?

 

 

 

[jozeff]

Hi Enrico,

 

So you have been tapering from 20 mg in May to 14 mg in July and now you're on 9.12 mg. For how long have you been taking this dose?

 

Could it be prolonged wd from your fast taper from 20 to 14 mg? I mean this is a pretty fast taper in June/July this year (2019) and now you are having these erectile problems. I've had these in the past and these are not permanent but nevertheless they are nasty if you have them.

 

Hope you will be stable soon and continue your taper.

 

 

Good luck and

 

 

 

 

 

[enrico2910]

18 hours ago, jozeff said:

Hi Enrico,

 

So you have been tapering from 20 mg in May to 14 mg in July and now you're on 9.12 mg. For how long have you been taking this dose?

 

Could it be prolonged wd from your fast taper from 20 to 14 mg? I mean this is a pretty fast taper in June/July this year (2019) and now you are having these erectile problems. I've had these in the past and these are not permanent but nevertheless they are nasty if you have them.

 

Hope you will be stable soon and continue your taper.

 

 

Good luck and

 

 

 

 

Hi Jozeff, 

 

I don't know. Sure I was going too fast in summer.

I have been staying on 9.12 mg for 17 days from 10.56 mg (it's a little bit than 10%) . I started to suffer WDs 3 days ago.  I stopped my tapering from September to the beginning of December cause I quit smoking. Maybe I was not ready to taper again. 

 

How you are doing with your approach -1.5 % per week? I am trying to use -10% of previous dose and then hold for 21 days. With this approach it will last forever but I have no chance. 

 

[enrico2910]

Hi all, 

 

it's a long time since my last post. I think sharing an update about my journey could be important, especially for people like me are taking Citalopram/Celexa. So here we are. 

 

From Feb 2020 to Aug 2020 I was able to reduce my dosage from 8mg to 3.4mg. I had an episode of depression (very strong) from Dec 2020 to Feb 2021, with suicidal thoughts, pure-O, insonnia, brain fog, etc. Surely triggered by the incredible taugh period we are all experiencing. 

 

I had to personally thank all members of this forum, cause I was really close to visit a psychiatrist, but based on real stories read on this forum I kept on (I didnt take any day off from job, even a single day). They idea was: "it's just a WD, I never had a suicidal though in my life... so it's not me! Not so incredibly - at this point - in February I started to feel better again. 

 

My journey started 6 years ago. I was taking an incredible amount of celexa (80 mg), and I cannot believe that now I am on 3.4mg (minus 95%). I have horrible side effects every day, but I can say now - 100% sure - that I feel emotions again listening my favourite songs and this is the best result I have obtained and keep me going on. 

 

Something I would like to share with you that I've learned from my experience:

 

- A lot of you are experiencing "head pressure". I was practicing a guided deep relaxation tecnique to became aware of my body sensation and I have to say that after 3 months of practice I've discovered that this "head pressure" is nothing than muscle tension in the head. Muscles are tensed all over the body and this exercise can help to relieve a little bit. Even fasciculation is related to muscle tenderdness. 

-I had the brilliant idea to follow a paleo diet for 3 months. A bad idea indeed. Low carb, low thrypthofan, low serotonin. So I switched to a more balanced diet full of vegetables and fruits. I used to have 2 veggies & fruits smoothies per day and this helped me so much to recover from the depressive episode.

- I started again to smoke. Bad Idea again :(. When I was smoke free all the WDs were more manageble. More energy, better sleep. And I guess smoke causes and inflammation to the brain that can impair our capacity to heal faster. I know it's difficult to quit, but if you feel brave enough It can surely help. 

 

E.

[enrico2910]

My  sister made me a surprise: "I put water in your liquid citalopram bottle to speed up the process!"  I've questioned her for hours and I've discovered she put 2 ml of water in a bottle on 15 ml. So I made some calculations and I found I am taking 3 mg insted of 3.4mg. More than a 10% reduction dosage. But let's say this is not a big issue. The real problem is that she opened the bottle in September and I started to take that bottle on November. On the bottle it's written "consume the product 4 months once opened" and actually it's passed 7 months. 

 

In March I am experiencing an exacerbation of WDs. I've thought that was normal... Spring, change of solar time, an other lockdown in Italy, etc. But as symphotms are brutal I am pretty sure now the liquid lost its potency. I had a really strong panick attack as now I don't know what I have to do now  . 

 

PLEASE HELP ME!

[enrico2910]

Please 🙏 someone can help me?

E.

[enrico2910]

My sister made me a surprise: "I put water in your liquid citalopram bottle to speed up the process!" I've questioned her for hours and I've discovered she put 2 ml of water in a bottle on 15 ml. So I made some calculations and I found I am taking 3 mg insted of 3.4mg. More than a 10% reduction dosage. But let's say this is not a big issue. The real problem is that she opened the bottle in September and I started to take that bottle on November. On the bottle it's written "consume the product 4 months once opened" and actually it's passed 7 months. 

 

 

 

In March I am experiencing an exacerbation of WDs. I've thought that was normal... Spring, change of solar time, an other lockdown in Italy, etc. But as symphotms are brutal I am pretty sure now the liquid lost its potency. I had a really strong panick attack as now I don't know what I have to do now . 

 

 

 

PLEASE HELP ME!

[enrico2910]

I don't know what I am doing. I've bought a new liquid bottle and I've tried to take 1mg to see what happens. I am scared now. I was following a rigid schedule and now my sister ruined everything. I don't want to be stucked in an horrible withdrawal window. I need to work. I cannot afford to live without working. 

 

E.

 

[enrico2910]

After 4h of 1mg I don't know if I've experienced a bad reaction or not. It seems that the dose was more potent, but I don't know if It's a psychological effects or not. I was restlessness with high anxiety. 

 

I don't know which dosage I was taking after all (liquid bottle sure lost its potency but how much?). 

 

I read the page about the reinstatement and tomorrow I'll try with less than 1mg. Let's see what will happen. 

 

For sure in February|March ( 4 or 6 weeks) I can say I was experiencing these symptoms:

 

- Fatigue and flu like symptoms just in the evening.

- Rage for minor problems or reasons.

- Vivid dreams.

- Premature ejaculation.

- Maybe minor brain zaps that thanks to your schedule (10% of the previous dosage) I've never experienced. 

 

E.

[enrico2910]

I will keep continuing to update you in case someone should experience the same stupid mistake I made. Waiting for someone that can help me to go out from this hell with a bit of support. 

 

This morning I've tried again to take 1mg. I have been always taking 2 dose, split during the day, one in the morning and one in the evening.

 

After 4 hours - this should be the peak in the blood - I've felt its potency. It's kind of manageable, but I feel it as too much potent respect to what I was used to. Yesterday evening after the peak I've experienced weird experience of restlessness. And this morning I woke up with a really strong anxiety

 

This evening I will try with 0.5mg to see if it's more manageable.

 

I hope I will survive 😭.

 

E.