Waldo

[Waldo]

Hello Everyone.  I am once again considering detoxing from my psychiatric medication.  I am 64 and my physical body and appearance would suggest I am much younger and healthier.  But as you all know, that means nothing when you live in your mind.  I was addicted to alcohol and drugs at a very young age.  At 34 I finally got totally clean and have remained so.  November 14th will be 30 years clean.  But it cost me my wife and son - to this day.  About six years into sobriety ~ 1994 I started therapy and fairly quickly was placed on my first SSRI - I am quite sure it was Prozac.  Unfortunately I simply don't recall what the dosage was and honestly while I have been on SSRI's since then, I can only recall the regimen that a doctor put me on in 2008.  It was 80mg Citalopram and 1mg Clonazepam.  He added Buspirone a few years back.  Due to a Heart Arrythmia diagnosis about 2 years ago - my internist told me to reduce the Citalopram to 40mg.  My signature below shows my current regimen.

 

About 7-8 years ago I was so depressed I felt I would be better off ridding myself of all the chemicals and pray that neuroplasticity would save me.  I went cold turkey first and got the expected 'brain zaps' and ultimately went back to my drugs.  Maybe three years later, I did it the correct way and totally weaned myself off of everything - using drops at the end.  But the depression came roaring back and i felt suicidal - so got back on my drugs.

 

Recently I have had a lot of disruption in my life.  Loss of a long term relationship (not my choice).  Sold a house and moved to a small studio.  I feel very little reason to continue - I am hoping that my broken heart mends soon.  It has been two months but seems to be getting worse. 

 

I once again feel my best hope is to slowly wean and try to hang on through the darkness that is likely to come, and pray that my mind can heal itself.  I know today I am taking medicine that is not working and likely only further damaging my already damaged brain.  

 

I fear that my brain will never recover.  I have done so much work to monitor my thinking (mindfulness) and live in the moment but nothing is a match for my racing negative thoughts.  And at 64, alone and mentally ill - it feels like a bleak existence in front of me.

 

Peter (aka Waldo)

[mammaP]

Hi Waldo, welcome to SA.  You have been through such a lot and are still here, you will get through this too. You are not mentally ill you have a broken heart and broken hearts mend. Unfortunately life's challenges lead to emotions that can be hard to deal with but are a normal part of life. We lose someone we love, we grieve. Grief is a natural process that has to be worked through and it gets better. We never forget the ones we have loved but life goes on and we heal. Sadly grief is now viewed as mental illness and drugged accordingly. So is stress that is normal, instead of help to work through it, we get drugs. In the end our lives are lived with drugs creating more problems than they ever solved.  When you C/T'd the drugs you were thrown into withdrawal, reinstatement will have quickly kicked in and stopped it in it's tracks. The same after tapering. It is withdrawal not a relapse.  You have recently moved house and lost a loved one when your relationship ended. Both are at the top of the list for stress. You have to settle into the new environment and grieve the loss, someone doesn't have to die for us to grieve. Look after yourself and look to the future. I am 66 and also alone. You can live alone and be happy. Do you have any hobbies? Do something you love, and find people who are positive. Being around happy people will irritate you at first but their smiles will be infectious. 

 

Maybe tapering isn't the right time for you just now. It is good to see that you are going to take control but while tapering there will be some wymptoms that will crop up and you will need to be able to cope with them.  Read everything about tapering and withdrawal in preparation, it is going to be a long road. I am 5 years in to my tapers and still a way to go but at the beginning I was housebound, and now I am out and about seeing new friends I enjoy being with. 

 

Now I want to ask you about your drug doses.

Do you take just one dose a day of clonazepam?

 

Apart from the grief and depression do you have any other symptoms?  A symptoms diary will be good, eg worse in the morning or evening. 

 

Do you feel any better after taking clonazepam?

 

How do you feel before taking it? 

 

You could click the quote button and put your answers underneath my questions in this post. I have left spaces for your replies.  In my next post I will post links for you so that you can prepare your taper. We may be able to help with adjusting clonazepam doses if needed which could make you feel much better. 

[mammaP]

Why taper 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6036-why-taper-paper-demonstrates-importance-of-gradual-change-in-plasma-concentration/

 

Tapering multiple drugs. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2207-taking-multiple-psych-drugs-taper-the-antidepressant-first/

 

Preparing to taper

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1789-preparing-to-taper/

 

Non drug ways of coping with emotional symptoms

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1112-non-drug-techniques-to-cope-with-emotional-symptoms/?hl=guilt

 

Rebuilding self confidence

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1230-rebuilding-self-confidence-accepting-anxiety/?view=findpost&p=11222&hl=guilt

 

When you are ready we will help you with tapering. 

[Waldo]

26 minutes ago, mammaP said:

Hi Waldo, welcome to SA.  You have been through such a lot and are still here, you will get through this too. You are not mentally ill you have a broken heart and broken hearts mend. Unfortunately life's challenges lead to emotions that can be hard to deal with but are a normal part of life. We lose someone we love, we grieve. Grief is a natural process that has to be worked through and it gets better. We never forget the ones we have loved but life goes on and we heal. Sadly grief is now viewed as mental illness and drugged accordingly. So is stress that is normal, instead of help to work through it, we get drugs. In the end our lives are lived with drugs creating more problems than they ever solved.  When you C/T'd the drugs you were thrown into withdrawal, reinstatement will have quickly kicked in and stopped it in it's tracks. The same after tapering. It is withdrawal not a relapse.  You have recently moved house and lost a loved one when your relationship ended. Both are at the top of the list for stress. You have to settle into the new environment and grieve the loss, someone doesn't have to die for us to grieve. Look after yourself and look to the future. I am 66 and also alone. You can live alone and be happy. Do you have any hobbies? Do something you love, and find people who are positive. Being around happy people will irritate you at first but their smiles will be infectious. 

 

Maybe tapering isn't the right time for you just now. It is good to see that you are going to take control but while tapering there will be some wymptoms that will crop up and you will need to be able to cope with them.  Read everything about tapering and withdrawal in preparation, it is going to be a long road. I am 5 years in to my tapers and still a way to go but at the beginning I was housebound, and now I am out and about seeing new friends I enjoy being with. 

 

Now I want to ask you about your drug doses.

Do you take just one dose a day of clonazepam?

I have always taken Clonazepam in .5mg doses.  I am prescribed to take two a day. 

Apart from the grief and depression do you have any other symptoms?  A symptoms diary will be good, eg worse in the morning or evening. 

Not from the drugs - no side effects if that is what you mean.  My mental state is just tremendous sadness.  Feel like I could cry all day long.  I have anxiety but it is the sadness and hopelessness that is giving me the most trouble.

Do you feel any better after taking clonazepam?

I do feel like it forces my compulsive thinking to subside.

How do you feel before taking it? 

Anxious, extremely fearful and unable to concentrate.

 

 

[mammaP]

Thank you for the answers Waldo. I was looking for interdose withdrawal from the clonazepam, some benzos need dosing up to 4 times a day, others once a day. I will ask the benzo mods to look.   The drugs could be adding to your depression but the stress is from situations and will get better. They are known to 'poop out' and cause depression after a while. We will look at the clonazepam first then look at tapering the others for you. It is best to taper the ADs first because the benzo will help with that. 

 

 

[Waldo]

11 minutes ago, mammaP said:

Thank you for the answers Waldo. I was looking for interdose withdrawal from the clonazepam,

 

Thanks so much for your attention Mamma.  I have been reading your story.  Wow. 

 

I do have a question though.  I want to make sure we are in sync.

Are you mixing up the Citalopram and Clonazepam?  

 

My SSRI is the Citalopram; it is the drug that I was considering once more ridding myself of.  I do take your point though about the timing (loss of relationship and moving).  

 

I don't see the Clonazepam as an issue - I see it as an aid to give me relief as necessary.  I don't abuse the Clonazepam and until recently wasn't even taking the full dose.

I will update my Signature.  I take the Citalopram twice a day - 20mg each time.

 

 

 

 

[Pepita]

Hi Waldo,

I am sorry to hear that you are having a hard time. I was wondering, are you sure tapering is a good idea when you are experiencing a very difficult phase right now? Generally getting rid of those toxic pills is advisable - of course. It's just that it's hard work for your system to adjust and if you are already dealing with troubles it might not be thr best time. 

Or at least, if you do, go extra slow:)) 

Are you in therapy now?

[mammaP]

No I am looking at clonazepam. It is a benzodiazepine and they cause rebound anxiety / interdose withdrawal. The dose eases anxiety but when it wears off it causes anxiety which creates a vicious cycle. By spacing the doses that can be avoided. Taking as needed always causes this eventually unless it is only taken once or twice a month. It isn't abusing it, far from it. Abuse is taking more and more for the high. Dependence is when we need the drug to function but not craving it.  We are all dependent on our drugs or we would be able to stop them C/T.  

 

Have you always taken citalopram twice a day?  

 

 

[Waldo]

6 minutes ago, Pepita said:

I was wondering, are you sure tapering is a good idea when you are experiencing a very difficult phase right now?

Thanks Pepita.  Mamma said the same thing.  Yes I think I will reconsider tapering now.  As you have read, I have done it before (once cold turkey - once correctly with liquid at the end).  But became frightened by the darkness that soon arrived and returned to the current regimen.  I'll need to reflect on the timing.

 

My motivation for ridding myself of the Citalopram is because - if it worked - it stopped a long time ago.  And I guess I just feel like, if I can weather the darkness of the withdrawal, maybe my brain will heal itself and combined with getting outside myself, I will be restored to sanity.  I just feel like these 20+ years of SSRI's have rewired my brain.

[Waldo]

40 minutes ago, mammaP said:

Have you always taken citalopram twice a day?  

I have always split them throughout the day.  At one point I was on 80mg of Citalopram!  Taking it 20mg - 4 times a day.  My current prescription says take 20mg - three times a day - but my internist felt it was comprising my heart and suggested lowering my daily dose to 40mg.  So now I take it morning and evening.  Is there a benefit to taking all in morning?

[mammaP]

38 minutes ago, Waldo said:

 Is there a benefit to taking all in morning?

 I am just curious. Citalopram is usually dosed once a day.  20mg 4 times a day is a huge dose and dropping it to 40mg would likely have made you feel bad for a while. Often a big reduction can make people feel much better but after a while withdrawal sets in and they think it is illness returning. I ask a ton of questions because often people come here believing it is one drug causing problems but after delving into doses etc it is another one that is the culprit! I agree that citalopram is probably the one to go first but I do believe that you need regular clonazepam rather than as needed especially after all the years taking it. I think you will find that you feel much better. 

 

Thanks for looking at my thread, quite a story! 

[Waldo]

1 hour ago, mammaP said:

 I am just curious. Citalopram is usually dosed once a day.  20mg 4 times a day is a huge dose and dropping it to 40mg would likely have made you feel bad for a while. Often a big reduction can make people feel much better but after a while withdrawal sets in and they think it is illness returning. I ask a ton of questions because often people come here believing it is one drug causing problems but after delving into doses etc it is another one that is the culprit! I agree that citalopram is probably the one to go first but I do believe that you need regular clonazepam rather than as needed especially after all the years taking it. I think you will find that you feel much better. 

 

Thanks for looking at my thread, quite a story! 

Mamma -

Thanks so much for your input. 

I went from 80mg to 40mg over couple of years and have been on 40mg for a couple of years now so I am not suffering from any withdrawal effects.  However, (and I realize you aren't a Dr) I suspect that there is a very good chance I may miscommunicated the prescription details to my internist years ago.  He writes my meds based on what I told him my psychiatrist instructed.  But it is very likely that I split the dosage into 20mg twice a day as opposed to 40mg once a day.  

I think I should go to 40mg in the morning (or evening) if that is the normal protocol.

 

Also I am open to taking the Clonazepam on a regular schedule - I simply thought since it was a benzo - taking as needed was conservative.  But I have no worries about addiction.  Plus it is a low dose.  I am just after peace of mind.

 

[mammaP]

Citalopram has a long half life so is ok dosed twice a day  whatever is best for you, it just seemed unusual and I wondered if you had a different one that is immediate release which would need multiple doses. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by mammaP

[Waldo]

8 minutes ago, mammaP said:

Citalopram has a long half life so is ok dosed twice a day  whatever is best for you, it just seemed unusual and I wondered if you had a different one that is immediate release which would need multiple doses. 

No - it is just generic Citalopram - no time release etc.

 

But based on your comments about the vicious anxiety cycle when taken as needed with the Clonazepam - I believe I should start taking my Clonazepam at the same time each day - maybe first thing in morning and before sleep at night.  I want to do everything I can that keeps me moving forward.   :))