RainbowDbc: Welcoming myself with my story

[JanCarol]

Hey Rainbow - thank you for your signature!

 

I am thankful that you updosed by a nice, modest amount.  

 

I am sorry that it feels fuzzy, and I agree it would be good to get it lower before trying to reduce benzo.  I understand the muscle symptoms. I practice karate, and for my time on lithium, it made me sluggish and twitch for a long time.  It is excellent that we caught this in time - so just remind yourself that this is a withdrawal symptom, and it will pass (hopefully fairly quickly)  Please hold on your current dose, so that we can see what it happening with you.  Each change rattles the whole system, and long holds help you understand your body better.

 

Here is a short video that explains some of the way withdrawal symptoms work:

Healing from Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery (by Toxic Antidepressants)

 

There are a number of factors involved here.  These drugs are not like aspirin, it takes time for the symptoms to rattle out - sometimes 3-6 months or more.   So when you feel a new symptoms, it may be from a change you made 3 months ago (another reason we like long holds).  Delayed Onset of Withdrawal Symptoms

 

Healing happens in Waves and Windows - this means that you will have times when the symptoms are more intense, and times they are better - but it doesn't mean you are "all better" until you've been in a window for an extended period of time.  Often, a good period is followed by a struggle.  Each struggle means that part of your body is healing, so when you feel symptoms, you can say, "My muscular system is healing."  The symptoms may shift to something else later.    Here are lists of possible antidepressant withdrawal symptoms (there is a lot of overlap with lithium - but even if your symptoms are totally different, you can see that it these drugs affect your body in wide and various ways:  

 

Glenmullen's checklist for withdrawal symptoms

 

In my experience lithium withdrawal is more sluggish than antidepressant withdrawal.  The people withdrawing from antidepressants might cycle through 3 waves or more in a month, but the lithium the symptoms may last a bit longer, and heal a bit more slowly.  But you are healing.  Think of lithium as a stubborn mule, that you have to tend carefully - she won't move fast, and she won't take you anywhere, but you must be kind to her in order to get what you need.

 

You must be kind to yourself, too!  Non Drug Techniques for Coping with Emotional Symptoms

 

 

How's this for a plan?  (suggestion)

Hold on your current dose, put up with the fuzzy foggy lithium (because tapering too fast is scary, right?).  Wait until your symptoms settle - say about 3 months.

 

Then, taper your lithium by 10% per month, until you get down to 112.5 mg - a very small dose.  Use a scale to get these increments.  I would like to see you get your doses down to 2x a day, it will be easier to taper, then.  You may be suffering interdose withdrawal or even tachyphylaxis (called "poop out")  from the benzo, and you are using the lithium to bridge the gap.

 

When your lithium is at 112.5, hold it there for a month or two, then start tapering the benzo.

 

I found that when I got down below 200 mg (or what the doctors called a "therapeutic dose"), the fuzzy numb awful stuff was not so intrusive, and I started to regain my passion for living.  In that condition - you will be better able to taper the benzo.  I would not suggest you stay at a numbing dose of lithium, but I do strongly believe in low dose lithium (you will see I still take a tiny tiny amount of the stuff, myself)..  I believe that small amounts of lithium will protect you for the benzo taper.

 

If you read around on the benzo threads, you will find that coming off a benzo can be dangerous.  If it were me, I'd like to have a little lithium (and I mean a little - I'm suggesting 112.5, because that seems to be a fraction of your pill size that is easy to obtain - what is your pill size?) to protect me from the worst of the benzo withdrawal effects.

 

You're doing really well, absorbing this information.  And Rico is a great positive attitude guy to help you!  I'm so glad you found us, you can do this!

 

It does get better!

 

I hope you see the sun today!

 

[JanCarol]

I just rechecked your signature - please put your current dose of lithium in your signature.  The most important parts of the signature are:

 

When started (10 years ago?) at what dose?

Changes to your dose in the past year, and dates of those changes.

 

These are the things that moderators look at.

 

It says there that you are looking to dry cut klonopin.  Those pills are so tiny that this is not recommended.  It is better to do a liquid taper on klonopin.

 

How to Make a Liquid from Tablets or Capsule

 

But you will need the scales for a successful lithium taper, which is fine for dry cutting.

 

I hope you see the sun today!  

 

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by JanCarol

[Shep]

On 8/31/2017 at 9:22 AM, RainbowDbc said:

By 9 pm I had seizure like movements moved on its own and I laid down it was close to a.minute. 

I woke up at 4 am which was something I really didnt want I need, to recover I took one quarter of rivotril and sept till eight. I felt better. 

Im going to take half a tablet of lithium after breakfast after lunch and after dinner sacradly. Rivotril will.stay at 1 mg but if.my sleeping patterns dont fix up I can take one quarter more. 

 

Hi, Rainbow.

 

It's possible you're getting some interdose withdrawal from the Rivotril.

 

Had you taken your Rivotril before these "seizure like movements" started at 9 pm?

 

How many times a day are you taking Rivotril? Please list the times and the doses for both your drugs. It would really help us help you if you could fill this out in this format:

 

Keep notes on paper about your drug dosages and daily symptom pattern

 

[RainbowDbc]

56 minutes ago, JanCarol said:

Hey Rainbow - thank you for your signature!

 

I am thankful that you updosed by a nice, modest amount.  

 

I am sorry that it feels fuzzy, and I agree it would be good to get it lower before trying to reduce benzo.  I understand the muscle symptoms. I practice karate, and for my time on lithium, it made me sluggish and twitch for a long time.  It is excellent that we caught this in time - so just remind yourself that this is a withdrawal symptom, and it will pass (hopefully fairly quickly)  Please hold on your current dose, so that we can see what it happening with you.  Each change rattles the whole system, and long holds help you understand your body better.

 

Here is a short video that explains some of the way withdrawal symptoms work:

Healing from Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery (by Toxic Antidepressants)

 

There are a number of factors involved here.  These drugs are not like aspirin, it takes time for the symptoms to rattle out - sometimes 3-6 months or more.   So when you feel a new symptoms, it may be from a change you made 3 months ago (another reason we like long holds).  Delayed Onset of Withdrawal Symptoms

 

Healing happens in Waves and Windows - this means that you will have times when the symptoms are more intense, and times they are better - but it doesn't mean you are "all better" until you've been in a window for an extended period of time.  Often, a good period is followed by a struggle.  Each struggle means that part of your body is healing, so when you feel symptoms, you can say, "My muscular system is healing."  The symptoms may shift to something else later.    Here are lists of possible antidepressant withdrawal symptoms (there is a lot of overlap with lithium - but even if your symptoms are totally different, you can see that it these drugs affect your body in wide and various ways:  

 

Glenmullen's checklist for withdrawal symptoms

 

In my experience lithium withdrawal is more sluggish than antidepressant withdrawal.  The people withdrawing from antidepressants might cycle through 3 waves or more in a month, but the lithium the symptoms may last a bit longer, and heal a bit more slowly.  But you are healing.  Think of lithium as a stubborn mule, that you have to tend carefully - she won't move fast, and she won't take you anywhere, but you must be kind to her in order to get what you need.

 

You must be kind to yourself, too!  Non Drug Techniques for Coping with Emotional Symptoms

 

 

How's this for a plan?  (suggestion)

Hold on your current dose, put up with the fuzzy foggy lithium (because tapering too fast is scary, right?).  Wait until your symptoms settle - say about 3 months.

 

Then, taper your lithium by 10% per month, until you get down to 112.5 mg - a very small dose.  Use a scale to get these increments.  I would like to see you get your doses down to 2x a day, it will be easier to taper, then.  You may be suffering interdose withdrawal or even tachyphylaxis (called "poop out")  from the benzo, and you are using the lithium to bridge the gap.

 

When your lithium is at 112.5, hold it there for a month or two, then start tapering the benzo.

 

I found that when I got down below 200 mg (or what the doctors called a "therapeutic dose"), the fuzzy numb awful stuff was not so intrusive, and I started to regain my passion for living.  In that condition - you will be better able to taper the benzo.  I would not suggest you stay at a numbing dose of lithium, but I do strongly believe in low dose lithium (you will see I still take a tiny tiny amount of the stuff, myself)..  I believe that small amounts of lithium will protect you for the benzo taper.

 

If you read around on the benzo threads, you will find that coming off a benzo can be dangerous.  If it were me, I'd like to have a little lithium (and I mean a little - I'm suggesting 112.5, because that seems to be a fraction of your pill size that is easy to obtain - what is your pill size?) to protect me from the worst of the benzo withdrawal effects.

 

You're doing really well, absorbing this information.  And Rico is a great positive attitude guy to help you!  I'm so glad you found us, you can do this!

 

It does get better!

 

I hope you see the sun today!

 

I hope it does get better. 

Thank you foe your input. Im paying attention to all your feedback. 

What is taxyphylasis..? My benzo can diminish lithium in the system? 

I did jump from 900 mg to a pill and a half and have been much more stable.so there is 'some' progress. 

Just on a pill and a half I feel a.bit disabled despite the stability...can we negotiate from 3 to 2 months. I will be stable by then. 3 months is an eternity being numb...

By two months Ill be ready to taper by 10% like you said. The moment my adhedonia is gone Im way more optimistic. I know why youre patient its.just not easy...

Thank you 

[RainbowDbc]

41 minutes ago, Shep said:

 

Hi, Rainbow.

 

It's possible you're getting some interdose withdrawal from the Rivotril.

 

Had you taken your Rivotril before these "seizure like movements" started at 9 pm?

 

How many times a day are you taking Rivotril? Please list the times and the doses for both your drugs. It would really help us help you if you could fill this out in this format:

 

Keep notes on paper about your drug dosages and daily symptom pattern

 

Sept 2

I will do that. I have been posting events 

And monitoring myself closely on these threads. 

Yesterday Sept 1

1 pill= 300 mg 

Total dosage a day is 450 mg chunked

 By every meal. 150 mg or half a pill per meal. 

I took half a pill of lithium after breakfast

Half a pill after lunch (I dont post time.because time may vary a bit) 

I had some twitching movements by 5 pm....this.came back and forth and started to become very intense...I was tired of my head bobbing compulsively. 

I called a confident to keep myself sane. 

It stopped around 7 pm and my brain was exhausted. It felt "light headed"...the seizure like.movements are mixed with a lot of brain activity. 

Then I took the remaining lithium half a pill by dinner.

I took  1.mg rivotril at 10 pm 

I could.of taken my pills to stabilize the reaction but decided to wait taking my.meds for.emergencies might make things worse. 

Summary=

Breakfast 150 mg lithium

Lunch 150 mg lithium 

Dinner 150 mg lithium 

10 pm 1 mg of rivotril 

 

Im not familiar with interdose withdrawal. Ill find out..how do.I correct it? 

Thank you Shep!

 

Yes this is important to.look at Jan, Shep, 

I found out what interdose withdrawal is. Interdose withdrawal...how can I fix this? My doctor sent rivotril as a sleeping pill.10.years ago and I dont know how to keep rivotril.stable in my blood. If I cut it (so small) I would not have a dose high enough.to.sleep. 

I am willing to try a supplent? 

How do people smoothen an interdose withdrawal? 

I have a faint idea people switch from maybe klonopin to valium becaise valium stays more time in the blood stream. 

If this is necessary I would get a doctors appointment and assess the change. But...a switch is a switch and altho both are benzos they are still different and my brain is used to rivotril in particular not anything else. 

I know this because my doctor tried many switches to get me off lithium and I ended up unstable and eventually psychotic. My intuition has taught me.to stick to what I dependent on to avoid incidents...I hope this makes sense. 

Can it also be tolerance withdrawal? Thats somewhat of an issue.

Tolerance withdrawal is already a mess because its like going thru withdrawal without even knowing it..you can only cure it by updosing and the whole point is to taper. 

There is a real possibility that lithium has masked any signs of tolerance hit from rivotril .Im not surprised. 

Making this a two in one withdrawal once a withdraw lithium!

I truly would not be surprised if I do have tolerance withdrawal from rivotril. I have been on rivitril for 10 years. Around a year ago I cut in half from 2 mg to 1 mg (ignorant from all I know now) and kept on sleeping just fine. 

Im not sure what the safest tapering stragedy there is now.  

Maybe a.very neutral supplement.can block out rivotril tolerance symptoms? 

L.theanine will block.anything by experience...but paradoxically detoxes potently.and.I cant afford.to further taper away thru detox..I use it for emergencies only. 

B complex magneseum (which one) and omega 3...would these help? 

I have read much on inisotil in high amounts and has been used even by shrinks.to block lithium side effects and its just a vitamin but its such a specific product to find at any drug store..

Im being overly descriptive because Im new at this. 

Feeling stuck. 

 

 

[RainbowDbc]

I dont know where the answers are going. They appear from the email but of I check directly the website nothing shows. Is it.due to using a phone? 

[Shep]

1 hour ago, RainbowDbc said:

Breakfast 150 mg lithium

Lunch 150 mg lithium 

Dinner 150 mg lithium 

10 pm 1 mg of rivotril 

 

Im not familiar with interdose withdrawal. Ill find out..how do.I correct it? 

 

Interdose withdrawal means you are getting symptoms in between the doses. Rivotril has a half-life of 18 - 50 hours, depending on how fast you metabolize it. So if you are a fast metabolizer, you may be reaching the half-life at around 4 pm the next day (after taking it at 10 pm).

 

So that may be why you're getting those "seizure like movements" in the late afternoon.

 

What do you think about taking the Rivotril twice a day instead of once a day? That would mean taking .5 mg in the morning and .5 mg in the evening.

 

If you decide to do this, please move .5 mg one hour a day until you have moved it 12 hours apart. This gradual movement is the gentlest on your nervous system.

 

So you would do the following:

 

Day 1:

 

.5 mg 9 pm

.5 mg 10 pm

 

Day 2:

 

.5 mg 8 pm

.5 mg 10 pm

 

Day 3:

 

.5 mg 7 pm

.5 mg 10 pm

 

Day 4:

 

.5 mg 6 pm

.5 mg 10 pm

 

Day 5:

 

.5 mg 5 pm

.5 mg 10 pm

 

And so forth until you've spaced the doses out 12 hours apart, taking .5 mg at 10 am and .5 mg at 10 pm.

 

Please let me know what you think about spacing your benzo doses out this way.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Shep

[Shep]

1 hour ago, RainbowDbc said:

I dont know where the answers are going. They appear from the email but of I check directly the website nothing shows. Is it.due to using a phone? 

 

You may need to refresh your browser or possibly even log out and back in.

 

Is it working now?

[RainbowDbc]

1 hour ago, Shep said:

 

Interdose withdrawal means you are getting symptoms in between the doses. Rivotril has a half-life of 18 - 50 hours, depending on how fast you metabolize it. So if you are a fast metabolizer, you may be reaching the half-life at around 4 pm the next day (after taking it at 10 pm).

 

So that may be why you're getting those "seizure like movements" in the late afternoon.

 

What do you think about taking the Rivotril twice a day instead of once a day? That would mean taking .5 mg in the morning and .5 mg in the evening.

 

If you decide to do this, please move .5 mg one hour a day until you have moved it 12 hours apart. This gradual movement is the gentlest on your nervous system.

 

So you would do the following:

 

Day 1:

 

.5 mg 9 pm

.5 mg 10 pm

 

Day 2:

 

.5 mg 8 pm

.5 mg 10 pm

 

Day 3:

 

.5 mg 7 pm

.5 mg 10 pm

 

Day 4:

 

.5 mg 6 pm

.5 mg 10 pm

 

Day 5:

 

.5 mg 5 pm

.5 mg 10 pm

 

And so forth until you've spaced the doses out 12 hours apart, taking .5 mg at 10 am and .5 mg at 10 pm.

 

Please let me know what you think about spacing your benzo doses out this way.

I can do this. The issue is, what if lack of rivotril at night makes me prone to  insomnia?  How do I counter attack this  naturally? 

[RainbowDbc]

17 hours ago, RainbowDbc said:

September 1

Sorry I am having seizure like movements. On and off. 

Read it was a possible fast taper. 

Updosing helped by a bit. 

Not sure what to do. 

Cant hire a doctor either..

Please

Sept 2

Hi Shep, yes some messages dont appear on the thread. This is the last message I see. 

Its 11 30 here and my...brain started having seizure like movements again. 

I dont know what this means since it persists. 

11:30 brain feels active and my legs are shaking a lot. 

How do we know if its lack of lithium or lack of rivotril? 

Also. I can recieve klonopin in a form of drops by the doctor. It hurts.my stomach a bit...just a suggestion. Maybe its an easier route. 

[RainbowDbc]

4 hours ago, JanCarol said:

I just rechecked your signature - please put your current dose of lithium in your signature.  The most important parts of the signature are:

 

When started (10 years ago?) at what dose?

Changes to your dose in the past year, and dates of those changes.

 

These are the things that moderators look at.

 

It says there that you are looking to dry cut klonopin.  Those pills are so tiny that this is not recommended.  It is better to do a liquid taper on klonopin.

 

How to Make a Liquid from Tablets or Capsule

 

But you will need the scales for a successful lithium taper, which is fine for dry cutting.

 

I hope you see the sun today!  

 

 

Its going to be a while till I taper the beast. Um I have access to it in drops. Of you think.this idea.works too.it.makes things.easier. I just hope.its accurate and metabolizing it in liquid form.is the same the pill. Ill fix the signature.

[Shep]

1 hour ago, RainbowDbc said:

I can do this. The issue is, what if lack of rivotril at night makes me prone to  insomnia?  How do I counter attack this  naturally? 

 

 

JanCarol mentioned dosing the lithium only twice a day instead of 4 times a day, and that may also help with sleep, having a larger dose in the evening. Is the lithium sedating at all?

 

These threads may help with non-drug methods of sleep:

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Tips to help sleep

 

43 minutes ago, RainbowDbc said:

Hi Shep, yes some messages dont appear on the thread. This is the last message I see. 

 

I'm not sure what's going on.You may want to post here:

 

Technical support and bug reports

 

 

[RainbowDbc]

Honesty, 

I dont know why its hard. When I first started I was chopping bits to avoid too much lithium side effects but also avoiding innerdose withdrawal reactions. Its a faintly anxious something bad is going to happen sensation. Maybe my metabolism is really fast. I could try and put the dose from midday so it can be 1 dose am and r 2 doses pm.....but I will be fighting off things I cant explain. 

Lithium is not so much a "gabba amplying sedative" to relax sedate it simply oppresses all of you. Switches you off, motor skills, emotions, less likely to be stimulated by anything. It might help sleep from any possible anxiety but its not linked to sleep. I can try tomorrow. 

I would like to see if lowering lithium and keeping it around without anhedonia and a brain running less slow is optimal..But to keep it around for the anxiety that Rivotril promotes. 

 

The issue with lithium from experience is that both withdrawal and fast healing takes place but it spirals up into a big mess. My brain wont balance itself and slowly it just speeds itself non stop. Yould expect the symptoms to go away with time, but my fast taper only made me spiral into a burn. Im trying to prove if my CNS can handle less lithium in the next taper but it will take time. 

Rivotril.might be a determining culprit as I withdraw lithium...

Take care 

 

 

[RainbowDbc]

Sept 2

Hi Shep/Jan, 

I do have bad news. 

I havent had a panic attack in maybe 2 3 years..I used to before when I was starting off on meds. 

I had to sit down and do a.lot of research and questioning in order to do this. Im not in the safe zone yet unfortunately but I want to be sincere and detailed in all spontaneous events. 

I had a 'panic attack' for the first time in a very long time. This was the first time.I recognized it as one. 

When it used to happen I did.not know what was happening and I thought I was like a freak. 

Learning about benzos made me understand that withdrawing will have the opposite effect so like any reaction this one was contemplated and I had one at 3 pm today. Lasted 45 mins to an hour. I took l theanine to deal with this because I thought if it keeps up maybe Ill black out or simply go psychotic. 

Im trying to lay off supplements but this one amino acid can slowly halt stuff. 

I dont call.anxiety or panic attacks emotions. Not even depression. More like reactions, withdrawal, a neurobiological response to.something...so its easier and I let it pass. 

Im a difficult person to 'treat' because I am hyper sensitive to change. 

Playing with lithium was a mistake and Im hopingbto stabilize. I hope I wont have to updose lithium.

I wish there was a way to keep my brain less irregular but its the consecuence of many drug changes and lithium. 

Klonopin might of reached tolerance without me knowing it. 

Im.praying my brain or NCS does come back to normal but sometimes theres an honest feeling that I may not be able to taper because my reactions are severe. I have done it all. Blackouts, psychosis, panic attack, dispersonalization...maybe I should hold onto lithium and taper klonopin in some months as preestablished...but I had a panic attack and havent begun to taper klonopin. What are my expectations...

I have 2 bad ass drugs in my system my brain is only screaming at me. 

Is it a good idea to switch from klonopin to valium? Valium might be easier to taper off due to life span in my blood stream. Im desperate for measures. 

[RainbowDbc]

Hi.

5 am I woke up at 5 am. Splittting        

          rivotril may not be a good idea. 

     Im trying figure this out. Yesterday I had a panic attack. Today I have anxiety. My heart isnt racing but I can feel my chest. I have consequential fatigue from constant anxiety. I dont see it as an emotion its just a response my brainnis having. My shrink told me in several ocassions that amygdalas grow bigger and the hypocamppus shrinks in time. (Due to bipolarity it could be due to meds period and he flat out lied to me.) 

But if my cortisol and adrenaline is very excited and its constant, is there anyine that might possibly discern this? Is thiscrelated to neurotransmitters that were previously blocked?  Glutamate? Does this balance itself in time....

Anxiety can somatize itself resulting in more fatigue and over all imbalance.

 

[JanCarol]

Hey Rainbow -

 

23 hours ago, RainbowDbc said:

Just on a pill and a half I feel a.bit disabled despite the stability...can we negotiate from 3 to 2 months. I will be stable by then. 3 months is an eternity being numb...

By two months Ill be ready to taper by 10% like you said.

 

It's not really me that you are negotiating with - it's your own body.  Your body might say 5 months to minimize symptoms, or it might be fine at 2.  I suggest 3 months as a cautious, conservative average to prevent mania and withdrawal symptoms after stabilizing.  Another rule of thumb is, if your symptoms have been better for a whole month, then wait another month before tapering again.

 

The body doesn't like clocks and schedules.  A broken leg heals at the time it's going to take to heal.  There are timings for natural processes such as renewal of blood flow to the bone, knitting of bone, stability of bone, etc., but there are individual differences to these processes.  The withdrawal equivalent would be something like this:  After a drug change,  on average it takes 4 days for the blood serum change to register, it takes 3 weeks for neurotransmitters to adjust to the dose.  But there are more factors than that, or we would be able to come off these drugs in just 3 weeks, instead of months and years of tapering.  

 

20 hours ago, RainbowDbc said:

what if lack of rivotril at night makes me prone to  insomnia?  How do I counter attack this  naturally?

 

You are up against exactly why these drugs are not recommended for sleep.  After long term use (has this been 10 years now?) your body has adjusted to the way they work.  So it's done things to compensate (the body doesn't really like to be drugged), and that's the "tachyphylaxis" or "poop out," which means that it no longer works as well as it used to.

 

We don't generally subscribe to "tolerance withdrawal" here, as it's confusing.  It's simpler to think of it as "poop out," (drug doesn't work like it used to) and "interdose withdrawal." (when the drug wears off, you get withdrawal symptoms).

 

Nearly all of us go through a period of insomnia during withdrawal.  For you it is especially important to manage because I suspect you could fly off in to manic behaviour if it's not managed well.    For natural solutions, see:  

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/53-sleep-problems-that-awful-withdrawal-insomnia/

Important Topics about Symptoms Including Sleep Problems

and

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6122-guided-meditations-calming-videos-sleep-hypnosis/

 

 

11 hours ago, RainbowDbc said:

I had a 'panic attack' for the first time in a very long time. This was the first time.I recognized it as one. 

When it used to happen I did.not know what was happening and I thought I was like a freak. 

Learning about benzos made me understand that withdrawing will have the opposite effect so like any reaction this one was contemplated and I had one at 3 pm today. Lasted 45 mins to an hour. I took l theanine to deal with this because I thought if it keeps up maybe Ill black out or simply go psychotic.

 

This falls right in line with my intuition that there is interdose withdrawal from the klonopin.

 

It is very rare that symptoms - even a panic attack - will "make you insane" or give you a blackout, or hurt you beyond what it feels like in the moment.  It is your reaction, response to the panic which is where you have control, and also where the danger lies (people who cannot abide the panic and do something dangerous, for example).  L-theanine is acceptable, though some people have reactions to it, too.  Hear what others have to say, here:

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1032-l-theanine-for-anxiety-insomnia/

 

It's fine to use the l-Theanine as long as it doesn't turn on you, but also consider Non Drug Techniques for Coping with Emotional Symptoms  (it doesn't matter if your panic is not emotional - the techniques help with physical symptoms too)

There are some favorites, like:

http://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/music/FirstAidPanicF.mp3  (sorry, we don't have Spanish versions of these - perhaps when you are more well you can help remedy this!)

 

Dr. Claire Weekes - Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

Yoga for Anxiety

 

If you want to see what others have done to survive their panic (and feel less alone - this is a common, common withdrawal symptom), you can read here:

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/5213-fear-terror-panic-and-anxiety/?p=11776

 

 

11 hours ago, RainbowDbc said:

Is it a good idea to switch from klonopin to valium? Valium might be easier to taper off due to life span in my blood stream. Im desperate for measures.

 

This is what Heather Ashton recommends:  

But many who have tried have been caught in a double bind - withdrawal from the klonopin, and the time it takes for the valium to get to steady state in the bloodstream, coupled with the higher side effect profile of valium - it is a crap shoot.  

 

 

1 hour ago, RainbowDbc said:

5 am I woke up at 5 am.

 

There are people here who have survived on naps of 30 minutes at a time, and no long sleep.  Many who have gotten through their withdrawal on 2-3 hours or less a night, for 6-10 months or more.  These people would be ecstatic to get as much sleep as you did!   I recognize that you have a lot of balancing to do, and sleep is vitally important for your mood.  But the first step is to be calm about loss of sleep.  Say to yourself, "it's only withdrawal,"  Pay attention to your mood, and try and put stays into place when you feel ramping up.  For example, every time I feel like exploding in rage - I try to catch it before it happens, and then breathe into my heels at least 3, long, slow deep breaths to shift from anger to something else.  I acknowledge the anger, I don't stuff it - but I try to transform it into something more useful.

 

To manage your mood, look at taking sun walks in the early morning to reset your melatonin cycle and absorb vitamin D.  I just did 10 minutes a day when I was withdrawing from lithium, and it helped immensely.  You wouldn't think that a 10 minute walk in the sun would have that much power, but it does!  Look also at how much protein you intake.  Meat protein is mood stabilizing.  Good fats - avocado, coconut, macadamia, fish - feed the brain and help keep your neurons smooth.  Magnesium is a huge benefit to the brain.  

 

Magnesium and Omega-3 fish oil

 

Also it may help you to learn about the cortisol cycle - so that you can see when your personal cycle goes against natural rhythms.  These are usually drug effects, but again - cortisol / adrenaline dysregulation is a common feature of withdrawal.

 

I am sorry for all of the links, but I can only log in once a day at present, and want to leave you with some nutritious reading material until I can get back again.

 

Let us know how moving the rivotril/klonopin goes.  

 

And I really do hope you see the sun today!

[RainbowDbc]

Sept 3

Lots of good stuff. 

Trying green tea was an accident. I would boil some before I went to a 2 hour walk with an empty stomach and my mood was enhanced and I was boosted. I recently bought capsules because I researched about l theanine and with 330 mgs it does the opposite effect it causes drowziness and in asian culture people use green tea to sleep.as it induces alpha waves and relaxes you. Yes it is a glutamate antagonist which is the reason anxiety simply vanishes. Its neuroprotective. The only issue with green tea is it is a potent detox agent at a cellular level so I stepped back. If it minimizes or poops out my meds I could have withdrawal. Its a powerful sleeping aid in high dosages and its a natural kind of sleep. So I take it with me for emergencies. 

I understand your views on valium and Im looking at all the possible angles before I decide. 

I spoke to people that switched and if you switch slowly it wont be so bad. I have an understanding that it causes a bit of depression...This is an advantage, I deal with depressiin much better than I do anxiety especially when its prolonged. I personally believe on my reads that cortical spikes and irregular glutamate responses are very harmful long term, depression (also very harmful) is not as.aggressive to the brain. Anxiety causes your whole body to react much like youre in a marathon race and running out of gas. 

Valium spends more time in the blood stream and if it depresses much like lithium it might control mania spikes as well. On the ling run tapering valium off might be faster than klonopin? The depressive effect might (might) mininize any anxiety like reactions. Which are going to happen anyway...but we can minimize it. Interdose withdrawal will be less as well. Yes Im scared...

I have always been a hiker and a swimmer and both require recieving sun, and yes I do notice benefits.of feeling regulated but it has no effect on my sleep. Since tapering I also have fatigue so Ive exercised less. When I do exercise now Im actually stressed and more fatigued so my responses to daily cardio changed too!

Due to metabolic syndrome I became obsessed with nutrition and ways to speed up my metabolism much the same way Im doing conststant research on this...and even my health habits arent having the same effect but Im not completely worried. Once my brain balances itself I have a feeling my health wil come back by a bit. 

My lithium.is still 450mg but I cant seem to pass it into 2 dosages, symptoms appear. 

I cannot split klonopin in 2 for now...sleep deprivation will overwhelm me, into much more fatigue weakness anxiety and possible mania...

There are different kinds of magneseum I think I will research. Yes I should get back to omega 3. Vitamin c might also be helpful for anxiety. People are controversial about b complex but vitamin depletion is real and probbaly worse during taper. 

My muscles were disappearing in 15 days of relapse..muscles are not just to move, nutrients are also stored there and the body eats your muscle for optimal function during emergencies. This is also why I prefer mild depression because its the less of 2 evils. The body doesnt suffer as much. Then again thats my experience. 

Thank you... be well

[Shep]

29 minutes ago, RainbowDbc said:

I understand your views on valium and Im looking at all the possible angles before I decide. 

I spoke to people that switched and if you switch slowly it wont be so bad.

 

I'm glad you are researching this so thoroughly, Rainbow. Yes, the gradual switch is key because they are two different drugs, even though they are both benzos. So as you switch over to Valium, you'll be dealing with Klonopin withdrawal.

 

Please read over the thread that JanCarol linked about switching. Please also read over this thread, as well:

 

Ashton and beyond in benzo tapering

[RainbowDbc]

I would post all the research Ive done and put it here as a diary but I dont know how lol. These have been general responses. Will get an appointment asap. Thank you Shep....hugs

[RainbowDbc]

Sept 3

I researched klonopin. Of course Ive had seizures. Its also for seizures......

This is why you pinpointed interdose seizure like reactions. Lithium does not cause seizures at all. 

The switch would have to be very slow. A switch from klonopin could turn into chaos even while on valium. A real setback, in some ways it is cold turkey.

But people have switched successfully. 

Which is confusing. Breathe.

 

 

 

 

[RainbowDbc]

Sept 3

Its 3 pm and the seizure reactions are back....theres a pattern where this happens at 3 - 5 pm apparently. I cant always see the previous posts. Klonopinis used for seizure control. I am not an epileptic. Linking the situation. If I switch to valium will the seizures get worse because Im leaving klonopin?  If I tell a.psychiatrist about this.and my conclusions shell be too arrogant to admit it because of her badge. Ill be remitted to a neurologist. I desire to switchnis stronger now...

[Shep]

6 minutes ago, RainbowDbc said:

Its 3 pm and the seizure reactions are back....theres a pattern where this happens at 3 - 5 pm apparently. I cant always see the previous posts. Klonopinis used for seizure control. I am not an epileptic.

 

Rainbow, when you say "seizure reactions", please describe what you mean. You state you're not an epileptic, so I'm wondering if it's really a seizure or if it's the electrical "zap" sensations that many of us experience during withdrawal. These threads will explain more:

 

Constant low-level jolts in entire body

 

Brain zaps

[RainbowDbc]

Hi Shep. 

I dont find it to be similar....my brain doesnt feel electric shocks of any kind. I dont have brain zaps. It feels mostly like its extremely preessed squeezed or being inflated and stuck in the skull. 

My head bobs up and down in small jolts yes continually. It can get worse....move faster and more dramatically. Then sideways...then back up.and down. Those posts mention this reaction related to ssris and somewhat related to epilepsy. My hands can also move or have a surge of energy as well.

I only had this happen to me when my doctor kicked out lithium and placed me on trileptal. He said it was for seizures but was proven to be effective for bipolar disorder. It was a melt down by 2 months. This was a year ago. 

Ok

[RainbowDbc]

27 minutes ago, RainbowDbc said:

Hi Shep. 

I dont find it to be similar....my brain doesnt feel electric shocks of any kind. I dont have brain zaps. It feels mostly like its extremely preessed squeezed or being inflated and pressing the skull. 

My head bobs up and down in small jolts yes continually. It can get worse....move faster and more dramatically. Then sideways...then back up.and down. Those posts mention this reaction related to ssris and somewhat related to epilepsy. My hands can also move or have a surge of energy as well.

I only had this happen to me when my doctor kicked out lithium and placed me on trileptal. He said it was for seizures but was proven to be effective for bipolar disorder. It was a melt down by 2 months. This was a year ago.

The movements are more relatable to.parkinsons. In seizures.people black out and move frenetically. I look like I have parkinsons.but innthe head.. I dont know what this means.

Theres different involuntary movements thru parkinsons tardive 'diskinesia' and involuntary movement related to antipsychotics. Its a range of possibilities but I wouldnt know. I called it seizure because I dont know how else to call it. Its an involuntary movement related to my head. Thats all.

[Shep]

16 hours ago, RainbowDbc said:

My head bobs up and down in small jolts yes continually. It can get worse....move faster and more dramatically. Then sideways...then back up.and down. Those posts mention this reaction related to ssris and somewhat related to epilepsy. My hands can also move or have a surge of energy as well.

I only had this happen to me when my doctor kicked out lithium and placed me on trileptal. He said it was for seizures but was proven to be effective for bipolar disorder. It was a melt down by 2 months. This was a year ago. 

 

Rainbow, I hate to keep going back to your antipsychotic use, but I'm concerned that this has the sound of a drug-induced movement disorder. Many drugs can cause this, but antipsychotics are the most common cause.

 

Can you give us a time line of your antipsychotic use? Please answer:

 

From what you can remember (or find out from your medical records), when were you last on an antipsychotic? Please list the month and year. What was the name of the drug and the dose? 

Edited September 4, 2017 by Shep
fixed typo

[RainbowDbc]

Sept 4, 2017

Im going to give you brief insight before I answer that. 

I have a 'private' psychiatrist because my parents decided i'd be in best hands. He has my entire history and Im a bit paranoid about asking for it, he has been treating me since Im 18 and any unusual behaviour is a trigger for him to investigate or call my 'caretakers'. My second history my public health insurance has it and I asked for it they will give it to me.in 3 days after paper work. I tried making an appointment but it will.be until 2 months till I have one...this is.more about switching to valium..and Im going to try and have the appointment sooner. 

Briefly, my last encounter with antipsychotics was from April to June this year for a month, with risperidone. I dont know how much. My doctor cold turkeys in 2-3 weeks when Im back from psychosis and when I go back to whine about their effects like weight and percieving stuff artificially. I know this because my boyfriend was present this year and I called him and he told me. Only with my medical history will I have precise information....soon.

Ive had around 8 psychotic episodes (3 involving wards) over the last 12 years. Some episodes happen for no reason, or because I tried to taper lithium with no guidance being desperate ending up with the same results and because I managed to try any new drug to switch lithium under my doctors supervision. He tapers too fast on a switch and I end up back on lithium . My issues have been related to lithium the last 5 years. He is obsessed with lithium and says I have a lithium deficiency and that I have abnormal dopamine levels, and that cognition decline is just part of being bipolar...and that every attempt to get off drugs that lead to psychosis is a set back.for my brain. We know this is simply not true....Im getting old with this story

Increased cognitive decline, memory decline, chronic fatigue, extreme anhedonia, and eventually a speech impediment and very narrow perception of everything because lithium dulls.perception is what has increased as 'side effects'. During the lowest possible dosage of.lithium these year tapering even my cognition came back by a bit ,even Rico sensed it from the phone.. (Australia).

 I was too busy in war against lithium to be concerned with klonopin.....

I was on klonopin throughout most of my life at 2 mg...but a cuban psychiatrist in my health insurance discretely told me to.please taper rivotril 'slowly'...so she switched the pill to drops I tapered to 15 drops or 1.mg (half my pill) and managed to sleep with no withdrawal symptoms apparently and went back to the pill because it hurt my stomach. 

This might of been this year. I am currently looking for her to switch to valium. She might reason with me. My private doctor says rivotril protects me from psychosis. Hes a very manipulative deceitful indivual willing to say anything to keep me on drugs and has a high influence over my family. 

Youre talking to.someone who lost sense of time and many things along the way and Im doing my best to.explain. 

I know risperodone, zyprexa, seroquel, abilify, wellbuitrin (nearly killed me 12 hours later...and I simply stopped it) I even remember strattera (for ADHD) and three days after I ditched it because it only kept me stoned. I told him about apparent demencia and gave he gave me this med. He tried trileptal and by 4 months I went back to lithium because of involuntary movements. 

Our last appointment he insinuated I try injected Invega (anti psychotic!) and leave lithium....I said no...Ill stay on lithium. By far a messy story but this is data on flashbacks Ive had....

Im.concerned about these involuntary movements. I dont know if its because I tapered lithium.fairy quickly from 900.to 450 mg. Or of it is just a pooping of klonopin. 

Involuntary movements would have to happen at any moment of the day if its a reaction to lack of anti psychotics but there is a pattern between 3 to 7 pm. This.means something. 

I will have my psychiatric medical history in 3 days and do my best to post it here. As far as a psychiatrist for a switch Im going to persist until it happens. 

Klonopin may have an impact on me that I blamed lithium for. Klonopin has been very silent symptom wise so I ignored it until now...

If its near to impossible for a switch from klonopin to valium for now..I dont know if up dosing klonopin by a minimum with some around 3 pm might be healthier than having these movements. Thoughts? But the movements dont.come on their own. Anxiety, faster thoughts, restrless legs and fatigue are part of this. My sleep has also become a bit more superficial and not very restoring. 

Lithium at 450 mg has been a bit difficult but not impossible to deal with. 

Im sorry for being overly descriptive and thank you for being here. 

A lot of people saw the light when switching to valium and its my main concern for now to take the same step. 

My fast tapers with lithium have lead me believe that I will never be able to leave lithium because its much trickier and prone to relapses. ..

 

 

Ok I read what you sent me on drug induced movement. Can you please tell me of this is reversible? Why would it show up with less lithium? Could lithium have masked it?  There isnt an effective solution for this is there?  Vitamin E? Peter Breggins brings this up over and over in his conferences as severe irreversible damage...I would appreciate some very honest feedback. Are there cases where this is temporary? 

 

 

 

 

[Shep]

8 minutes ago, RainbowDbc said:

Briefly, my last encounter with antipsychotics was from April to June this year for a month, with risperidone. I dont know how much. My doctor cold turkeys in 2-3 weeks when Im back from psychosis and when I go back to whine about their effects like weight and percieving stuff artificially. I know this because my boyfriend was present this year and I called him and he told me. Only with my medical history will I have precise information....soon.

 

Thank you for this information. Please add this to your signature:

 

April through June 2017 - risperidone, came off cold turkey

 

Don't worry about having this in your signature. While I understand your paranoia for dealing with antipsychotics within the toxic climate of the mental health system, you can only see signatures when you're logged in, so only members are able to see them. And since you're using a username and not your real name, you're anonymous here.

 

10 minutes ago, RainbowDbc said:

Involuntary movements would have to happen at any moment of the day if its a reaction to lack of anti psychotics but there is a pattern between 3 to 7 pm. This.means something. 

 

Please answer two questions:

 

1.  When did the involuntary movements start? Please list the month and year, as best as you can remember.

 

2. Do the involuntary movements stop at 7 pm, which is well before you take the Klonopin at 10 pm? 

 

Tardive dyskenesia (a movement disorder from antipsychotics) can be worse in the afternoon than in the morning. Please see:

 

Diurnal variation in tardive dyskinesia

 

Please do your best to simply answer these two questions and not go off topic. It's important to figure out if this really is an interdose benzo problem before you start making more changes that could make your nervous system even more sensitive. 

 

 

[RainbowDbc]

On 9/3/2017 at 4:40 PM, RainbowDbc said:

On 9/3/2017 at 4:19 PM, RainbowDbc said:

Hi Shep. 

I dont find it to be similar....my brain doesnt feel electric shocks of any kind. I dont have brain zaps. It feels mostly like its extremely preessed squeezed or being inflated and pressing the skull. 

My head bobs up and down in small jolts yes continually. It can get worse....move faster and more dramatically. Then sideways...then back up.and down. Those posts mention this reaction related to ssris and somewhat related to epilepsy. My hands can also move or have a surge of energy as well.

I only had this happen to me when my doctor kicked out lithium and placed me on trileptal. He said it was for seizures but was proven to be effective for bipolar disorder. It was a melt down by 2 months. This was a year ago.

The movements are more relatable to.parkinsons. In seizures.people black out and move frenetically. I look like I have parkinsons.but innthe head.. I dont know what this means.

Theres different involuntary movements thru parkinsons tardive 'diskinesia' and involuntary movement related to antipsychotics. Its a range of possibilities but I wouldnt know. I called it seizure because I dont know how else to call it. Its an involuntary movement related to my head. Thats all.

[RainbowDbc]

Wish I had studied this instead of Hotel Managament. I should post the link. It explains depletion or constant blocking or  antagonism of dopamine. On the list appears several antipsychotics and yes lithium.....the site said some degree of tardive diskinesia is irreversible but depending on the medication it leaves as you taper. Im trying to hold.onto.my sanity. Yes it starts at 3 pm most of the time can end after 3 hours or less. These movements started roughly after the crisis I had related to lithium then I heightened the dose...a post somewhere in this thread is the day it started. 

Um..I dont have a problem adding it to my signature. My doctor pilllpushed not me

[Shep]

1 hour ago, RainbowDbc said:

On the list appears several antipsychotics and yes lithium.....the site said some degree of tardive diskinesia is irreversible but depending on the medication it leaves as you taper. Im trying to hold.onto.my sanity. Yes it starts at 3 pm most of the time can end after 3 hours or less. These movements started roughly after the crisis I had related to lithium then I heightened the dose...a post somewhere in this thread is the day it started. 

 

Thanks, Rainbow. This is very helpful.

 

If the involuntary movements are related to lithium, hopefully as your updose is recognized by your nervous system, these movements may improve. 

 

Please let us know how you're doing over the next few days. 

[RainbowDbc]

Sept 4, 2017

Shep Im sorry Im.very nervous. The uncertainty is killing me. I cant find.much info on lithium and what neurotransmitter it binds to. According to my doctor its a dopamine antagonist. Ever since I tapered and kept lithium at 450 mg Ive had these movements. They might be more linked to lithium than rivotril itself, if its related to dopamine. It might have been masked by lithium. Im looking for more sources but lithium isnt very understood by researchers. If you have any info could you please send me anything. Did Jan have any form of tardive dis during taper?  Gosh

Further more. I have an understanding that cold turkeying tardive disc inducing drugs is worse like.damaging. (Peter Breggin). That.a soft taper is necessary either way antipsychotics and lithium made me.highly susceptible to mania and psychosis which are surges of dopamine elevation in the brain...a natural response from constant blocking. I have no choice but to taper very slowly...and klono in the way. 

I always knew lithium was way worse..

[RainbowDbc]

Sept 5, 2017

I woke up at 2:30 this time. It was usually 4 am..Now its 2:30 am but no anxiety I simply woke up.and decided not to take.anything to sleep. 

Still worried about uncontrollable movements.or signs.of tardive disk but apparently some.people have taken Haloperidol? Had the movements and they faded away. 

Bizarre observations since I tapered 450mgs of lithium:

My sweat glands are back. I.could hike for 8 hours the sweat was.minimum...Im sweating more now. Which.is good. 

Im 'feeling' from my chest or stomach I had lost these sensations for many years now. 

My sleep patterns have been a bit irregular. 

 

[RainbowDbc]

3 hours ago, RainbowDbc said:

Sept 5, 2017

I woke up at 2:30 this time. It was usually 4 am..Now its 2:30 am but no anxiety I simply woke up.and decided not to take.anything to sleep. 

Still worried about uncontrollable movements.or signs.of tardive disk but apparently some.people have taken Haloperidol? Had the movements and they faded away. 

Bizarre observations since I tapered 450mgs of lithium:

My sweat glands are back. I.could hike for 8 hours the sweat was.minimum...Im sweating more now. Which.is good. 

Im 'feeling' from my chest or stomach I had lost these sensations for many years now. 

My sleep patterns have been a bit irregular. 

8:00 Am - My head started to squeeze. My neck started to get very tense and.painful..then my eyes also started getting sore. It seems Im.going to have a.reaction in every part of my body. My head stings in different parts.of the brain. Im not familiar to these symptoms.of.pain. Nerve growth? Theres a tolerable burst of energy or anxiety.  

 

 

 

[Shep]

Hi, Rainbow.

 

I'm no expert on lithium, so I'm unable to answer your questions on how it works, but I do know that psychiatric drugs don't just hit one neurotransmitter. They are all connected and they all effect the nervous system. 

 

Your comment that you'd like to taper slowly is key in helping your mind/body heal from all of this chemical trauma.

 

Please keep updating and let us know how you're doing. 

 

 

 

 

 

[RainbowDbc]

On 9/5/2017 at 8:34 AM, RainbowDbc said:

 

 

On 9/5/2017 at 8:34 AM, RainbowDbc said:

 

Hi 

I've had several reactions. Yesterday night I felt needles in my feet. 

This morning in college...I was incapable of understanding much of what was said. Being asked questions and was trying hard to respond. My personality has slighlty changed and it freightens me. Understanding my brain can only go so far..or how.my limbic system.was damaged. I think lithium got away with a lot of things..Having bizzare neurological.psychological states.and feeling impaired is my greatest fear. Id like to be able.to.stay home and taper like.so many as I may become dysfunctional. This becomes dramatic when youre trying to keep up.but presured to.look.normal. 

Ill be posting all reactions because I need to.pile up.my progress somewhere. I want to wait until.maybe my brain has come back to normal. 

I dont know.much about lithium because studies onnlong term effects are so limited yet its so toxic.

[RainbowDbc]

Hi Shep, 

Havent been able to write Ive been caught up.

Im still waiting for an appointment to.switch to valium. 

Im not concerned about lithium anymore I think it adjusted at 450 mgs just fine. 

Klonopin might be giving me the constant movements at 6 pm...much like that of a heroin addict. 

It doesnt seem related to tardive d. 

Ive had to wake up at 2 3 to breathe consciously...and Im sure its klonopin related. Im a.bit desperate. Im having the same movements 10 mi s after rivotril...almost like an over reaction to it.

Hole youre well