Medication in recovery from substance abuse

[Bongo]

Hi. I'm an old member who actually forgot all about this forum, until I received an email last week. Going to jump right in as I'd like to kick this topic around a bit, and it's not appropriate for other forums I'm a member of.

 

I am in recovery from alcohol and drug addiction for over 30 years. I am enjoying complete recovery from severe depression, anxiety, agoraphobia and substance abuse because I feel I was lucky in being led to a holistic as opposed to medical path. I am part of a recovery group that I still participate in several times a month, and I'm becoming very concerned about the current state of things. I want desperately to open my mouth and be vocal about my "opinions" to others in this group, but I feel too it would be both dangerous, and irresponsible. The last thing I'd ever want to do is have someone hurt themselves because something I said scared (or convinced) them off of their medication.

 

My concern is this: After talking with many people and volunteering in a rehab, I'm learning that the medical community (in my area at least) is now convincing newly sober people that the reason they drank and took drugs in the first place was because they were self treating underlying issues and illnesses. Duh!!! Not sure why this is a surprise to anyone... but that's not the point. They go on to convince these newcomers that they have chemical imbalances, are fighting a battle they'll never win, and need to be chemically treated in order to truly enjoy recovery. They're then even further encouraged by group members to trust their doctors, as their doctors know best. And the cycle begins.

 

I see those people sometimes getting better quickly, though temporarily - and then 90% of the time winding up in worse shape than when they entered recovery. Sometimes it happens quickly, sometimes it takes many years, but it almost always happens. The people don't ever recover, they only switch substances to a medically monitored and managed substance.

 

I could go on and on regarding this, but will leave it with adding one more note. A good friend of mine had the above experience with a therapist who recommended a psychiatrist. My friend found a psychiatrist that came highly recommended who was one of the very few to say, "Yes. You're suffering and struggling horribly in early sobriety. Follow the suggestions and advice given to you by the people in your self-help group, and come back to me in a year if you're still struggling." Those weren't the Dr.'s exact words, but that was the sentiment. That person is now many years sober, no longer suffering, and has no dependency on any chemicals.

 

I have no specific questions regarding any of this. I guess I'm just curious about others feelings around the topic. Also curious if people are aware that it's going on in the recovery community...

 

[edit] Was only able to view my previous posts on this forum after posting this. I posted pretty much about the same thing 3 yrs back :). I could view that as failure to resolve my issues with this, or determination to succeed with some sort of action! I'm choosing the latter :).

Edited August 22, 2017 by Bongo
Reason is noted in the post

[powerback]

11 hours ago, Bongo said:

Hi. I'm an old member who actually forgot all about this forum, until I received an email last week. Going to jump right in as I'd like to kick this topic around a bit, and it's not appropriate for other forums I'm a member of.

 

I am in recovery from alcohol and drug addiction for over 30 years. I am enjoying complete recovery from severe depression, anxiety, agoraphobia and substance abuse because I feel I was lucky in being led to a holistic as opposed to medical path. I am part of a recovery group that I still participate in several times a month, and I'm becoming very concerned about the current state of things. I want desperately to open my mouth and be vocal about my "opinions" to others in this group, but I feel too it would be both dangerous, and irresponsible. The last thing I'd ever want to do is have someone hurt themselves because something I said scared (or convinced) them off of their medication.

 

My concern is this: After talking with many people and volunteering in a rehab, I'm learning that the medical community (in my area at least) is now convincing newly sober people that the reason they drank and took drugs in the first place was because they were self treating underlying issues and illnesses. Duh!!! Not sure why this is a surprise to anyone... but that's not the point. They go on to convince these newcomers that they have chemical imbalances, are fighting a battle they'll never win, and need to be chemically treated in order to truly enjoy recovery. They're then even further encouraged by group members to trust their doctors, as their doctors know best. And the cycle begins.

 

I see those people sometimes getting better quickly, though temporarily - and then 90% of the time winding up in worse shape than when they entered recovery. Sometimes it happens quickly, sometimes it takes many years, but it almost always happens. The people don't ever recover, they only switch substances to a medically monitored and managed substance.

 

I could go on and on regarding this, but will leave it with adding one more note. A good friend of mine had the above experience with a therapist who recommended a psychiatrist. My friend found a psychiatrist that came highly recommended who was one of the very few to say, "Yes. You're suffering and struggling horribly in early sobriety. Follow the suggestions and advice given to you by the people in your self-help group, and come back to me in a year if you're still struggling." Those weren't the Dr.'s exact words, but that was the sentiment. That person is now many years sober, no longer suffering, and has no dependency on any chemicals.

 

I have no specific questions regarding any of this. I guess I'm just curious about others feelings around the topic. Also curious if people are aware that it's going on in the recovery community...

 

[edit] Was only able to view my previous posts on this forum after posting this. I posted pretty much about the same thing 3 yrs back :). I could view that as failure to resolve my issues with this, or determination to succeed with some sort of action! I'm choosing the latter :).

Hi bongo sadly this wouldn't turn out well in your favour ,the world is dealing with a huge monster when it comes to doctors/medication, you see they have government and policy in there favour ,its not that long ago you could just make some illness up and have your wife committed to a psychiatric hospital .

A gigantic industry has been developed on the back of so called conditions that cant even be tested for [questioners at best ].there's a TED talk that explains psychiatry is the only field that doesn't even scan/xray the part of the body they claim to be experts on .

when an industry is settling out of court all the time on cases just shows us what there about [sheer profit ].this isn't the altruistic protection of humanity .

 

I hung on every word of my doctors until  2 years ago and I tell you never again in my life will I .holistic is the way ,a hundred years ago the  holistic approach was buried by the powers that be to make the way for the medical model that's here today .

They have  medicalised human suffering/pain and emotion .

In my opinion all you can do is point them in the direction of this site when the side affect  symptoms develop .

 

Good on ye for thinking outside the box ,but be careful putting yourself in harms way .

I think you can lead by example by showing the route you took .

 

I read that the NHS in the UK had to look at all the prescriptions for ADs being handed out ,in my opinion this isn't an epidemic of people getting sick ,its an epidemic of over prescribing and prescribing more drugs to people when they come back with side affects of the medication they giving in the first place ,its truly nuts .

 

What you say is correct ,they will end up on a dependency on chemicals not that they actually fix a so called problem .

Good on you for being sober ,I'm 2.5 years sober myself ,I suppose my real journey begins when I get off these disgusting drugs and you can be guaranteed it will be holistic not medical .

Take care .

PB

 

 

 

 

 

[manymoretodays]

On 8/22/2017 at 3:22 PM, Bongo said:

Hi. I'm an old member who actually forgot all about this forum, until I received an email last week. Going to jump right in as I'd like to kick this topic around a bit, and it's not appropriate for other forums I'm a member of.

 

I am in recovery from alcohol and drug addiction for over 30 years. I am enjoying complete recovery from severe depression, anxiety, agoraphobia and substance abuse because I feel I was lucky in being led to a holistic as opposed to medical path. I am part of a recovery group that I still participate in several times a month, and I'm becoming very concerned about the current state of things. I want desperately to open my mouth and be vocal about my "opinions" to others in this group, but I feel too it would be both dangerous, and irresponsible. The last thing I'd ever want to do is have someone hurt themselves because something I said scared (or convinced) them off of their medication.

 

My concern is this: After talking with many people and volunteering in a rehab, I'm learning that the medical community (in my area at least) is now convincing newly sober people that the reason they drank and took drugs in the first place was because they were self treating underlying issues and illnesses. Duh!!! Not sure why this is a surprise to anyone... but that's not the point. They go on to convince these newcomers that they have chemical imbalances, are fighting a battle they'll never win, and need to be chemically treated in order to truly enjoy recovery. They're then even further encouraged by group members to trust their doctors, as their doctors know best. And the cycle begins.

 

I see those people sometimes getting better quickly, though temporarily - and then 90% of the time winding up in worse shape than when they entered recovery. Sometimes it happens quickly, sometimes it takes many years, but it almost always happens. The people don't ever recover, they only switch substances to a medically monitored and managed substance.

 

I could go on and on regarding this, but will leave it with adding one more note. A good friend of mine had the above experience with a therapist who recommended a psychiatrist. My friend found a psychiatrist that came highly recommended who was one of the very few to say, "Yes. You're suffering and struggling horribly in early sobriety. Follow the suggestions and advice given to you by the people in your self-help group, and come back to me in a year if you're still struggling." Those weren't the Dr.'s exact words, but that was the sentiment. That person is now many years sober, no longer suffering, and has no dependency on any chemicals.

 

I have no specific questions regarding any of this. I guess I'm just curious about others feelings around the topic. Also curious if people are aware that it's going on in the recovery community...

 

[edit] Was only able to view my previous posts on this forum after posting this. I posted pretty much about the same thing 3 yrs back :). I could view that as failure to resolve my issues with this, or determination to succeed with some sort of action! I'm choosing the latter :).

 

Hey Bongo,

I'm an alcoholic too.......come to find out, after my dear adult son got a DUI about 2 years ago.  It was then that I landed myself a chair in the local AA meetings.  A gift really......as I was pretty darn sick and desperate at that point.  I had become really dependent on weed to help me while getting off Seroquel.........one of the many drugs prescribed to me during my psychiatric patient career spanning nearly 3 decades.  At first it was pretty good weed.......grown in a legal state.......and then, for the first and last time ever.......I had to resort to "using my dear son" to get me some from his friend.  Weed isn't my sons thing........just alcohol for him.  While on the "street weed"........well.......I guess you could say I reached a new level of isolation and then desperation which was where I was at when gifted with AA..........and I can see, historically, in my own life, just how I really am an alcoholic.

 

Anyway.......sober now for 15 mos. and working my program.  I am also now off all of my many, many prescribed drugs for bogus diagnoses(I just don't believe in this current medical/mental health model of care at all anymore.........long time coming).  And so I am still very much in that stage of healing/recovery from mental health care..........hoping for the best.........lots of progress............as far as my recovering mind, body, and spirit.  I essentially pretty much C/T off most of my meds. or did the doctor recommend C/T..........which is not in line with what I now know to be a better, safer way..........with the exception of my last medication(Trileptal)............yet I still expect a full recovery and sometimes am living a full recovery.  Recently.......just too much stress and perhaps not enough action has got me into a bit of a setback/wave.........nothing like it once was though........thankfully.

 

I, for one, yes, am aware of what is going on in the "substance use communities of recovery" and it does sometimes make me downright sick.  I as well, would like to, like you, find a way to advocate for a change.........in the now what is called "medically assisted treatment" for substance use.  I especially need to do further research on the use of suboxone and the low dose naltroxene being used(and forgive my spelling, etc. as I am trying to get on out of the house today rather late) as opposed to the diagnosing people while in early recovery from street drugs and alcohol.......then medicating.........all while the people in treatment remain in the dark about the meds. they are given and diagnoses they are given, etc.  Full disclosure just is not happening.........yet.  And alternative treatment is just not available for many.

 

There is a difference though too, at least for me............the dependencies created by all the medications prescribed to me for nearly 3 decades and the recovery from that is different.......not without some overlap into what "just" recovering alcoholics or street drug users experience.........but there is a difference.  As well as overlap.

 

Enough said......  I am none too concise right now with words.  I did want to respond however and I did read your other posts and gained a lot.  AA has really helped me find meaning as well.  My higher power is also not like what I used to imagine G-D was at all.  AA has also helped me greatly in my healing process to date and given me a belief that I can be well enough, good enough, etc. and some great rewards await.  I too, like you........find I do have to censor myself at meetings and sometimes after meetings and really can just share what parts and parcel of my experiences may help another..........growing in this every day still..........I do hear you and have some good ideas and encourage you to look around the site and copy or share some of the articles and information you find..........or even join in our movement for change.

 

Love, Peace, Healing/Recovery, and Growth, 

 

manymoretodays(mmt)

[cpuusage]

Very complex area. i do agree that in the vast majority of cases the primary issue within addiction is addiction, but in some cases there is genuine & serious dual diagnosis issues.

 

i personally think that the 12 step fellowships have to do something about all this & issue a comprehensive guidance & information around it all.

 

i am over 16 years t-total. i haven't done a 12 step meeting in over 9 years - it was largely inappropriate for the secondary / primary psychotic illness / schizophrenia.

 

i stopped all medication twice in the first 3 years of sobriety with very severe consequences, it almost killed me.

 

i haven't found the understanding & support that i needed within the 12 step areas.

i have come across others in recovery who have obvious / severe dual diagnosis. i am long term / close friends with 3 people in recovery who have very obvious long term / severe mental health difficulties as well as being in recovery. i have come across others who despite trying everything have had to come to an acceptance of serious 'secondary / primary' mental health difficulties.

i don't think everything within all these areas can be seen as the same 'thing' & within the same terms. imo what needs to be done is proper understanding, help & support for the needs of different individuals.

i can't see it all changing in my lifetime - within the anti / critical / alternative psychiatry / mental health areas, which are the minority, there is a lot of very deep disagreement & argument - the alternative mental health movement has failed. It would need a totally unified alternative mental health movement to begin with - then a unified mainstream movement to put pressure on Governments, Industry & the medical profession. i'm Not sure that will ever happen?

What needs to fundamentally change is the dominance within the establishment, medicine & mainstream society of the primary & often exclusive focus on the biomedical & scientific materialist. That is impacting everything.
 

There has been a number of deaths where people have been 'forced' to stop medication by 12 step groups. It's potentially highly dangerous for non-professionals to get involved with it all. Of course also there are those who don't have serious mental health difficulties. Addiction is seen as a mild mental illness within psychiatric terms. That doesn't mean it's mild, it means it's Not classified in terms of a serious mental illness. Some people though do have / suffer with severe mental illness.

There is also a trend now locally & i expect in other areas where people are having to argue illness to keep eligibility for & remain on social security, especially with all the welfare 'reforms' & past 7 years of Austerity. It's all dealing with highly complex political, sociological & health related areas.

[cpuusage]

The 12 step approach & disease / biomedical model of addiction & mental health is coming under increasing scrutiny.

Is Addiction a Disease?

The current medical consensus about addiction may very well be wrong -

 

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/is-addiction-a-disease/

 

With regards to what comes under genuine severe mental illness / dual diagnosis it seems to be a highly complex picture -
 

i'm Not sure that there is any either / or - all times & cultures have had words / terms & treatments for madness. Some stuff is madness, some stuff is more spiritual emergency & some stuff is differential.

 

Everything crosses biological, psychogenic, sociological & spiritual / transpersonal areas from an integral / holistic Model - mind, body, soul, spirit & environment.

Differential Diagnosis between psychosis & spiritual emergency, mysticism & psychosis -

 

http://www.spiritualcompetency.com/dsm4/lesson5_1.asp

 

http://realitysandwich.com/1800/spiritual_emergencies/

 

http://healingsanctuary.proboards.com/thread/333/mystical-psychosis?page=1

 

i would think a lot depends on the school of psychology & whether someone is a behaviourist / materialist or idealist.

 

Materialism -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

 

Idealism -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism

 

Nondualism -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism

 

Transpersonal psychology -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpersonal_psychology

 

Psychiatry & Society also needs to fully acknowledge that 80% of health is sociological / environmental / systemic. Of course it won't, far better to keep blaming the individual.

Sociological Links / aetiology with environment -

 

https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/acestudy/index.html

 

http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/this-video-dispels-every-nature-vs-nurture-myth-youve-ever-heard/

 

 

 

 

[cpuusage]

12 step helps a percentage of people & a lot it doesn't. The long term sobriety / success rates with it all are Not good, & i think it has lost the original vision of Jung & Bill / Bob. It needs a total overhaul. It is undeniably cult like as well (imo).

http://www.orange-papers.info/

i have always been of the opinion that we need to fully transition from the primary biomedical / materialist paradigm to a fully integral / holistic Model -

"Although out reach and crisis services are needed, without a 24/7 front end system sanctuary like Soteria, CooperRiis, Diabasis House, the Open Dialogue or the sanctuary - folks don't have a chance to avoid having their potentially transformative psychosis being aborted with medications and a Schizophrenic diagnosis being laid on them for the rest of their lives. Loren Mosher on alternative approaches to psychosis, was agreed that all the sanctuaries like Laing's Kingsley Hall, John Weir Perry's Diabasis House, Soteria, Burch House, Windhorse, the Agnews Project. And the med free, no restraints, no diagnosis, open door Ward sanctuary; plus the Euorpean and Scandanavian Open Dialogue places- well they ALL basically do the same thing. They provide the necessary and sufficient conditions for a person to go through a psychotic process and come out the other side-'Weller than well'- as Karl Menninger famously said. By being held in the healing crucible of a caring, open hearted setting, the psyche naturally sets it's own course and heals from the early wounds that made a dramatic psychosis renewal necessary in the first place. If instead, a person is labelled as having a diseased brain and medicated into emotional numbness and submission, then the energy and power and symbolic expression of the purposive psychosis simply falls back into the unconscious. Then whenever a loss or trauma happens, the person de-compensates into an ever more amorphous emotional and fragmented daze of so-called chronic psychosis where renewal and healing is far more difficult."

- Michael Cornwall

https://www.madinamerica.com/author/mcornwall/
_____________________________________________

The Life conclusion, in the words of who was arguable the greatest psychiatrist & psychologist this World has seen -

“I have now, after long practical experience, come to hold the view that the psychogenic causation of the disease is more probable than the toxic [physico-chemical] causation. There are a number of mild and ephemeral but manifestly schizophrenic illnesses - quite apart from the even more common latent psychoses - which begin purely psychogenically, run an equally psychological course (aside from certain presumably toxic nuances) and can be completely cured by a purely psychotherapeutic procedure. I have seen this even in severe cases”.

- Carl Jung

 

[cpuusage]

Surely all this is dependent on changing the social / systemic understandings & approaches to mental health, & critically giving people the individual & appropriate understanding, help & support that they need. Otherwise none of it is going to change - it will in fact continually worsen as it all has done.

[cpuusage]

Lets also Not forget the actual realities that a lot of the poor, sick & genuinely physically / mentally disabled & mentally ill are up against now -

 

Surely everyone knows what is really going on.

 

Friday, 10 November 2017
Voting Tory is an endorsement of their systematic abuse of sick and disabled people

 

https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2017/11/voting-tory-is-endorsement-of-their.html

 

https://medium.com/@emilywolinsky/a-quiet-genocide-of-the-disabled-in-america-a35982e6abb5
 

UN denounces British government for failing to protect disabled peoples' rights

Damning report finds ministers have failed those with disabilities through catalogue of welfare policies in recent years

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/un-disabled-rights-uk-government-denounced-criticised-united-nations-austerity-policies-a7923006.html
 

Government cuts have caused 'human catastrophe' for disabled, UN committee says

Ministers are accused of 'totally neglecting' people with disabilities

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-spending-cuts-human-catastrophe-un-committee-rights-persons-with-disabilities-disabled-a7911556.html

[cpuusage]

We have to start with implementing people's basic human rights -

In one graph the government just quietly revealed the Bedroom Tax has been an utter failure

 

https://www.thecanary.co/uk/2017/11/10/just-one-graph-government-quietly-revealed-bedroom-tax-utter-failure-images/

 

Implementing Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and a basic income guarantee

 

http://www.sharing.org/information-centre/articles/implementing-article-25-universal-declaration-human-rights-and-basic

[manymoretodays]

3 hours ago, cpuusage said:

12 step helps a percentage of people & a lot it doesn't. The long term sobriety / success rates with it all are Not good, & i think it has lost the original vision of Jung & Bill / Bob. It needs a total overhaul. It is undeniably cult like as well (imo).

 

I guess it, as they say..........works for those who work it as I am sure you did at one time.  I've thought it's cult like as well   Yet I'm in that place where I have invested so very much $$$$ in medical treatment models AND therapists that I do need a different approach to what ails me.  Am a an addictive personality?  As well as dependant(on something, someone, or some place)?   Probably yes to both but Alcoholic fits too, as it is laid on out in the Big Book, which I sure like better than the DSM.   As well as trying to live for the first time in all my adult life as a decent or best person I can be free of psychoactive anything.

 

I've found a lot of other resources, fairly free resources through folks I have met at AA and that has been really helpful.  And I really don't want to join the Mormon church at this point, although they really take the cake in terms of service and have been great to me, the Mo's, the bros and sisters.  Really great.  Although.......undeniably cult like as well......to coin your phrase.  Many spiritual groups are I guess.  And guess what.........wherever I go.........there will be an AA group, which I think is really cool.  It can and does work like therapy for me, without the over analyzing everything to death, over and over again.  I mean what you focus on is what you focus on.  I do want to go see my therapist for pay again soon however.  She's into advanced DBT skills........life coping skills.........and AA= spiritual tools.

 

So in some ways I am learning not only to accept myself but all others from all walks......without judgement......... and I can only think that is a good thing.

 

I see Vivitrol is the latest.........often given by injection, once a month.  The Opiod epidemic is front page news and so.........of course, drug manufacturers and treatment centers and all the therapists and psychologists will be busy once again.  It's so reminiscent of what I used to believe was the way in mental health care.  Drugs and therapy.  Ugh.  It's kept me alive however and for that I am grateful.  I am.....so very........wary............of the overdiagnosis that has resulted though for so many...........who.........really.........still.........believe that Doctor's are G-Ds, and all knowing.

 

They are using stimulants now too in older folks..........like they have just developed ADD.  I've been struggling a bit more emotionally and physically and spiritually lately.  I almost wouldn't mind some low, very low dose adderal salts or just some weed/herb..........and so............I get to go to a meeting, visit with my friends there.........some who medicate legally, but most who don't.  Learning to accept them all and not judge but offer............only offer some of my experiences and help.

 

You left me a lot to look at above CPU.   And have some great thoughts. Thanks.

 

Happy, happy, gratitude, gratitude month, and face to the sky.........

 

mmt

[cpuusage]

3 minutes ago, manymoretodays said:

 

I guess it, as they say..........works for those who work it as I am sure you did at one time.  I've thought it's cult like as well   Yet I'm in that place where I have invested so very much $$$$ in medical treatment models AND therapists that I do need a different approach to what ails me.  Am a an addictive personality?  As well as dependant(on something, someone, or some place)?   Probably yes to both but Alcoholic fits too, as it is laid on out in the Big Book, which I sure like better than the DSM.   As well as trying to live for the first time in all my adult life as a decent or best person I can be free of psychoactive anything.

As i say, i think some 3% of the population have very obvious severe mental health difficulties, & even with an ideal system they would still need proper care help & support & some would very likely need access to a judicious use of front end services & likely potential wise use of medication. i don't think everything within mental health areas can be seen as the same thing. 

Don't you think it actually was & is the case, as it is with many others that you haven't had a serious / severe 'secondary / primary' mental illness?

i did everything i could with regards to 12 step recovery, it didn't work, & it almost killed me. It's Not a cure for schizophrenia.

[manymoretodays]

21 minutes ago, cpuusage said:

As i say, i think some 3% of the population have very obvious severe mental health difficulties, & even with an ideal system they would still need proper care help & support & some would very likely need access to a judicious use of front end services & likely potential wise use of medication. i don't think everything within mental health areas can be seen as the same thing. 

Don't you think it actually was & is the case, as it is with many others that you haven't had a serious / severe 'secondary / primary' mental illness?

i did everything i could with regards to 12 step recovery, it didn't work, & it almost killed me. It's Not a cure for schizophrenia.

 

Yes CPU.  Yet I even wonder with you.........I mean what if..........what if long ago..........your "psychosis" WAS triggered by non prescribed psychoactives...........alcohol and the like.........and you just got treated with comfort or maybe one tranquilizer/antipsychotic/brain deadener briefly and carefully weaned off..............oh, maybe..........how different and easier your life may have been.  Maybe how less ?chronic or severe the symptoms now? 

 

I agree.......AA is not a cure for shizophrenia or old school manic/depression.  I have no problem agreeing with that.    And I don't have the cure for you either but I sure enjoy your stuff and your mind.  Consider yourself a shaman.  I'm glad you tolerate your anti psychotic fairly well.  I don't blame you for not trying again to get off of it.  You belong here.   No problem.  I'm just on the other side.......off meds. now and stubbornly won't go back.  I mean maybe I will have to consider something one day, someday..........I'll stay open. 

 

.....and oh......okay,  I probably, like many others haven't had a serious/severe secondary/primary mental illness.  I started with some situational depression I think.  I come from a long line of Finns too, Finlanders if you will..........

 

I do suffer from thought disorganization from time to time now.  And have had mild paranoia, delusions.........even illusions, have heard things, seen things, etc. but no............not to the extreme.  And oh so grateful really.......middle class white entitled me.........I mean I'm embarassed that I really haven't had to suffer or struggle more than I could handle.  Yet, I almost died from traditional mental health care too.......  It's so crazy.  Anyway I am glad there is a Great One, Great Mystery,  greater than us and we are both still kicking and are most likely right where we are supposed to be.

 

Love, Peace, Gratitude, it's been a pleasure, talk again soon.........

 

manymoretodays

[cpuusage]

The wider question of mental health i feel is tied into the wider social / cultural / systemic realities.

 

It needs something big to genuinely transform it all. The Global current alternative mental health movement has failed. 

https://www.madinamerica.com/2017/10/movement-failed-heres-how-to-change/

[cpuusage]

1 minute ago, manymoretodays said:

 

Yes CPU.  Yet I even wonder with you.........I mean what if..........what if long ago..........your "psychosis" WAS triggered by non prescribed psychoactives...........alcohol and the like.........and you just got treated with comfort or maybe one tranquilizer/antipsychotic/brain deadener briefly and carefully weaned off..............oh, maybe..........how different and easier your life may have been.  Maybe how less ?chronic or severe the symptoms now? 

 

I agree.......AA is not a cure for shizophrenia or old school manic/depression.  I have no problem agreeing with that.    And I don't have the cure for you either but I sure enjoy your stuff and your mind.  Consider yourself a shaman.  I'm glad you tolerate your anti psychotic fairly well.  I don't blame you for not trying again to get off of it.  You belong here.   No problem.  I'm just on the other side.......off meds. now and stubbornly won't go back.  I mean maybe I will have to consider something one day, someday..........I'll stay open. 

 

I do suffer from thought disorganization from time to time now.  And have had mild paranoia, delusions.........even illusions, have heard things, seen things, etc. but no............not to the extreme.  And oh so grateful really.......middle class white entitled me.........I mean I'm embarassed that I really haven't had to suffer or struggle more than I could handle.  Yet, I almost died from traditional mental health care too.......  It's so crazy.  Anyway I am glad there is a Great One, Great Mystery,  greater than us and we are both still kicking and are most likely right where we are supposed to be.

 

Love, Peace, Gratitude, it's been a pleasure, talk again soon.........

 

manymoretodays

Thank you. Well done on all your own achievements. Yes of course i could have been & could now be far better helped in my view, but i wasn't, & can't access what i feel would be more appropriate help, Not negating the love, help & support of family & friends. i am as opposed to the current system as much as anyone else.

i was forced sectioned 4 times & very heavily forced medicated until i was made utterly dependent on this neuroleptic medication. i had No real choice in it all & i fought the system from day one. It did all start however with very severe / extreme psychosis / experiences before any contact with psychiatry & the mental health system.

My overall circumstances, situation & condition now is that i am not able to work. i have to argue illness or end up on the streets. The realities of my history, condition & diagnosis is what it is. If i don't take the medication i end up in very extreme psychosis.

 

Things started age 6 after a very bad accident & head / neck trauma. Of course the illicit drugs & drinking exacerbated things, but i don't think it's the whole picture / story, & after over 16 years of T-Total sobriety there are still a lot of ongoing difficulties & challenges. i feel that it is genuine dual diagnosis, i do see the schizophrenia diagnosis as valid in ways, i just have my own understanding of what it is & would like to see far better treatment of people. i also don't think that anyone fully knows with it all or has the answers.

 

Maybe in another time & culture i would have been the village shaman by now? Or maybe i would have been seen as being possessed by Demons & beaten to death by the villagers with sticks, or chained up my whole life, or died in a ditch somewhere - who knows?

Of course Life is a Great Eternal Mystery. i feel some affinity with Faust, especially the full story (Parts I & II -
 

Faust -

Sweetest being, don’t misunderstand me!
Who dares name the nameless?

Or who dares to confess:

‘I believe in him’?

Yet who, in feeling,

Self-revealing,

Says: ‘I don’t believe’?

The all-clasping,

The all-upholding,

Does it not clasp, uphold,

You: me, itself?

Don’t the heavens arch above us?

Doesn’t earth lie here under our feet?

And don’t the eternal stars, rising,

Look down on us in friendship?

Are not my eyes reflected in yours?

And don’t all things press

On your head and heart,

And weave, in eternal mystery,

Visibly: invisibly, around you?

Fill your heart from it: it is so vast,

And when you are blessed by the deepest feeling,

Call it then what you wish,

Joy! Heart! Love! God!

I have no name

For it! Feeling is all:

Names are sound and smoke,

Veiling Heaven’s bright glow.

 

 

 

 

[manymoretodays]

Awesome......

[cpuusage]

21 hours ago, cpuusage said:

Everything crosses biological, psychogenic, sociological & spiritual / transpersonal areas from an integral / holistic Model - mind, body, soul, spirit & environment.

 

Differential Diagnosis between psychosis & spiritual emergency, mysticism & psychosis -

 

http://www.spiritualcompetency.com/dsm4/lesson5_1.asp

 

http://realitysandwich.com/1800/spiritual_emergencies/

 

http://healingsanctuary.proboards.com/thread/333/mystical-psychosis?page=1

 

 

For me this makes sense & is critical. What we need i feel is a comprehensive person centred individualised integral / holistic Model, understanding & approach.

 

There's currently too much conflict & argument over what mental health / illness is / isn't, & different ways of understanding & treating it all.

That we have to move away from the biomedical / materialist focus -

 

http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-science

 

http://www.my-big-toe.com/

 

i do feel that there are intimations & movement towards a standard integral / holistic Model - integrating biology, psychology, sociology & spirituality.

 

i feel that the 12 step fellowships have to address it all more - bring out books that outline more these issues & areas, move ahead with the times.

http://healingsanctuary.proboards.com/thread/571/integral-theory?page=1

http://www.mentalhealthwales.net/the-whole-person-approach/

 

https://www.childrensal.org/workfiles/Clinical_Services/CBH/Holistic_Approach_To_Mental_Health.pdf

 

http://www.mentalhealthy.co.uk/blogs/the-holistic-model

 

[cpuusage]

Mental illness is now at epidemic levels. i think that there needs to be a very open & honest National / International Debate on it all.
 

i would like to discuss the general understandings of & treatment of people suffering mental health difficulties in the UK & Globally. Obviously it is a highly in depth & complex subject with many aspects to it all & a lot of controversy. General understandings & attitudes are still rife with stigma & discrimination, often fed into by the MSM & a lot of it all is still a largely taboo subject.

 

Very obviously the way mental health is treated has a lot of economic & political implications / factors.

 

There are growing amounts of controversy & debate within anti / critical / pro / alternative psychiatry areas about the best ways people experiencing mental health difficulties & experiences should be understood & treated. Isn't it time that people got proper, appropriate, humane & compassionate treatment & full acceptance within UK society & Globally.

 

Acknowledging The Survivor: Exclusion, Trivialisation and Denial -

 

https://beyondmeds.com/2011/01/24/acknowledgesurvivor/

 

Unjust discrimination against people with mental ill health should be replaced with universal rules based on decision making ability, writes George Szmukler, but Scott Weich worries about legal distractions that won’t improve outcomes while services are so thinly stretched

 

www.bmj.com/content/359/bmj.j5248

 

If madness isn’t what psychiatry says it is, then what is it? That’s been my koan for almost fifty years!

 

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17522439.2014.955522

 

Are Mental Disorders Brain Diseases ‘In Waiting’?

 

https://www.madinamerica.com/2017/11/mental-disorders-brain-diseases-in-waiting/

[cpuusage]

Jessica Martin

January 23, 2018

Substance-Induced Psychosis Associated With Development of Schizophrenia, Bipolar Disorder

 

http://www.psychiatryadvisor.com/schizophrenia-and-psychoses/rates-of-substance-induced-psychosis-transitioning-to-schizophrenia-bipolar-disorder/article/738301/

 

Same the World over -

How we’re missing the real story on mental health in Massachusetts

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/08/11/how-missing-real-story-mental-health-massachusetts/0rDX8YNWirBM8kyvHcZQXJ/story.html?event=event25

 

4 in 10 British parents indicate children are anxious about threat of terrorism

https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/news/4-10-british-parents-indicate-children-are-anxious-about-threat-terrorism?bblinkid=78401364&bbemailid=6831061&bbejrid=519342037

(Google 'Global Epidemic of Mental Illness').

We are the hollow men: The worldwide epidemic of mental illness, psychiatric and behavioral emergencies, and its impact on patients and providers -

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5316796/

 

[cpuusage]

This looks good -

 

An Integral Foundation for Addiction Treatment: Beyond the Biopsychosocial Model by Guy du Plessis

guyduplessis.com/

www.calsouthern.edu/content/articles/psychology-articles/guy-du-plessis-guide-to-addiction-recovery

Currently there is such a cornucopia of conflicting theories in the field of addiction studies that it has become exceedingly difficult for treatment providers, therapists, and policymakers to integrate this vast field of knowledge into effective treatment. Many countries are on the brink of medical and economic crisis from struggling with the excessive burden of addiction treatment on health care.

Scholars have pinpointed two foremost problems in addiction treatment science: confusion over the treatment definition and treatment ineffectiveness. Since such a chaotic overabundance of treatment theories, styles, and definitions cloud the field of addictionology, many therapists claim their field is in need of a paradigm shift.

In the last 20 years an integrative and compound model has emerged known as the biopsychosocial model, but without a solid and comprehensive meta-framework, syncretistic confusion can result when therapists pick and choose techniques without direction or an overall rationale. To address this problem, Guy du Plessis applies integral theory as a conceptual framework for understanding addiction, as well as a meta-therapeutic framework for therapists. The Integral foundation of addiction outlined in this book provides researchers, academics, and therapists with a conceptual architectonic of addiction and its treatment that is integrative, inclusive, and practical. An Integral Foundation for Addiction Treatment belongs on the shelf of every addiction treatment therapist, and anyone else who is impacted or influenced by the topic.

[manymoretodays]

Hi cpu,

 

Yes, it does.  Looks good.  Sounds good.  I'm going to have to give  "An Integral Foundation for Addiction Treatment: Beyond the Biopsychosocial Model by Guy du Plessis"  a further look for sure.

 

    And thank you again, for sharing your collection.  Still perusing some of the articles.........

Jessica Martin's is interesting........as it spans the time period of 1994-2014, with a large sample size.  It certainly explains the "why" of sometimes over-diagnosing/subsequent labeling of some many I come into contact with today:

http://www.psychiatryadvisor.com/schizophrenia-and-psychoses/rates-of-substance-induced-psychosis-transitioning-to-schizophrenia-bipolar-disorder/article/738301/

I'm only guessing, but no doubt many of those in the "guild" have read up on this one or their drug reps/pushers are sharing it, the article.  Recent publication date as well.

 

And Monday, monday here in the States.  I'm going to make it the best day/week possible.

Hope you are doing super.

 

Love, peace, healing/inrecovery, and growth,

manymoretodays

 

 

 

 

 

[cpuusage]

Hi manymoretodays - how are things with you? i hope all as well as can be. Thank you for the reply.

 

Think we can safely say that the Global pharma Industry is operating as organised crime, & that the biomedical establishment is totally in bed with it. 

 

What to do about it all? & changing the system / society to something a lot better where everyone gets the understanding, treatment, help & support that they all need.

 

i am doing OK thanks. i do fluctuate with things, but have been feeling slightly better recently.

 

Love, peace & healing to you too.

 

 

[manymoretodays]

Hi cpuusage,

Hey, thanks for asking.  I'll get an update done soon.  I'm doing well.... 

 

[cpuusage]

Spiritual Emergence Anonymous

12-Step program for Spiritual Emergence

 

http://spiritualemergenceanonymous.org/sea-literature/

 

Spiritual crisis -

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_crisis

 

International Spiritual Emergence Network -

 

http://www.spiritualemergencenetwork.org/

 

[cpuusage]

Probably controversial -

 

Just Because You Can't Stop Taking Antidepressants Doesn't Mean You're Addicted

Americans often talk about depending on antidepressants like it's the same thing as being addicted to drugs like coke. Here's why that's wrong.

 

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvx95p/does-needing-drugs-antidepressants-make-me-an-addict-addicted

[peng]

Thanks for that, cpu.  Helpful - I think.

Coincides with me hitting a bad patch and having to hold!

[manymoretodays]

 

On 8/22/2017 at 3:22 PM, Bongo said:

My concern is this: After talking with many people and volunteering in a rehab, I'm learning that the medical community (in my area at least) is now convincing newly sober people that the reason they drank and took drugs in the first place was because they were self treating underlying issues and illnesses. Duh!!! Not sure why this is a surprise to anyone... but that's not the point. They go on to convince these newcomers that they have chemical imbalances, are fighting a battle they'll never win, and need to be chemically treated in order to truly enjoy recovery. They're then even further encouraged by group members to trust their doctors, as their doctors know best. And the cycle begins.

 

Yup.  Same in my area.

Some of the newcomers to " treatment centers and then sober living"  are wise to it however.  And refuse to buy in.  The others..........I can't as a "certified peer" or if working in the now "industry" for substance use say a thing.  I can only share my own experiences with psychiatry, and where I am at now briefly, if at all.

 

It's really bothering me today.........this "system of care".

 

On a lighter note........a few of my acquaintances(peer mental health world and substance use treatment world) are aware of, and okay with my decisions.  And quietly support me.  Sometimes even share their own medication free journeys or those of their loved ones.  That helps.

 

I just had to get that out today. 

 

Thank you for starting this thread Bongo.  And check on in if you can as far as how you are living and dealing today.

 

Love, peace, healing/inrecovery, and growth,

manymoretodays