DMV64: reinstate Saphris?

[DMV64]

Oh Rabe. That does not sound good. I really want to drug out of me but I don’t want to make things worse.

[ChessieCat]

Quick fixes seem tempting ...

[JanCarol]

Looking at your signature, it is difficult to see HOW MUCH klonopin you are on without diving into your thread and looking at when we split it into two.  Please correct this and put klonopin in current year?

If it is 1 mg.(which you report in 2011), that is minimum 10 - 12 adjustments (by SA protocols), 10 - 12 months of adjustment in 9 days.  So - you might get off it, and be free of it - but then be bedridden for a year to recover.  What Rabe described is typical of a fast taper.  You can't rush neurotransmitter adjustments!

 

On 9/12/2018 at 8:05 PM, JanCarol said:

It takes 3 weeks for neurotransmitters to adjust, so I'd be reluctant to go any faster.

 

So you wouldn't even feel the first adjustment until after you got out of hospital.

 

Think of it like rock climbing.  We like to belay down the rock a little at a time.  The hospital wants to drop you off the cliff, and hope you land safely.  Some people do land safely - but do you want to take that chance?

 

Another way to think of it is - each decrease is like a rock.  To have one rock thrown at you, it's easier to fend off and repair and get ready before the next one.  But if 10-12 rocks are thrown at you at the same time - that's a lot harder to heal from.  You'll be done with the rock throwing - all at once - but - is it worth it?

 

The hospital and doctors never see that part, they would just say, "oh look, you have a mental illness, and you have relapsed," instead of blaming the difficulties coming off the drug.

 

On 9/12/2018 at 8:05 PM, JanCarol said:

Also keep in mind that too-fast tapers can stack up.  The first one might be fine, but if you didn't quite recover before the second, then the third one might knock you for a loop.  It can be cumulative.  Pay close attention and be mindful, and listen to your body if you start to get fatigued, or your symptoms increase in any way.   This stacking up of symptoms is why we often recommend long holds.

 

Again - you have a high level of functioning.  You don't want to lose that.  Slow and steady wins the race!

 

This is the same question you've asked before, "Can I go faster?"  I understand the need for reassurance, but asking the same question in different ways with different scenarios produces the same answer.

Edited October 13, 2018 by JanCarol

[JanCarol]

Hey D - 

 

On 9/14/2018 at 12:42 AM, DMV64 said:

Hard to know if I really love myself...Really.

 

Oh I had a total "lovingkindness" meltdown sometime last year. 

 

I thought - oh Jack Kornfield, he's supposed to be good - and I put on one of his "lovingkindness" meditations.  The one where you start with something/someone you love and radiate towards them, and gradually shift it to include yourself, and then someone/something that you are uncomfortable with, and then someone/something you hate.

 

I got stuck on "I"  (egads, the very first word of the meditation) and then "love."  I couldn't access it as a feeling, a thought, a behaviour, anything!  I went into total meltdown as "I" (who am I?) couldn't find "love" or define it or feel it or anything.... and I couldn't put the two together and say, "I love"!

 

So - it's a challenging thing, self-love.

I've come a ways since then, and can now access my heart.   The key to this is gratitude.  And - it's a life's work.  I can't always say, "I love" someone/something/myself and believe it (other than colloquially:  "I love sushi!").  But it's a good direction to turn to!

This may not be to your taste, but Todd Rundgren says it well:

 

Just found a great bit of wisdom here by MMT, which I will repeat!
 

On 9/25/2018 at 9:27 AM, manymoretodays said:

DMV, no problem if you need a break from work now and again.  Don't be so hard on yourself.  I'm only guessing, but my guess is that you didn't miss a bit of work......just missed out on the serenity and peace that fear will take from us if we don't keep after it........with our practices, and our skills.

 

Also - I asked the question:

On 9/30/2018 at 4:36 AM, JanCarol said:

(perfectionist?  are you a perfectionist?  There is a huge correlation between perfectionism and anxiety!)

 

then this:

On 10/12/2018 at 7:04 AM, DMV64 said:

My friends...I am here in tears. My studio is closing. We can't keep going on. We just can't make rent. Landlord let us out. So that's good. But I feel so much loss. Trying not to feel like a failure. This is ANOTHER big change. I feel like I can't take anymore. Need support. : (

 

OH D!  I'm so sorry!  I'm losing my studio, too (but I am not an owner/operator, anything other than a student who holds tai chi and shamanism classes there).  Closing!  Gone!  Good-bye!

 

My yoga teacher is happy to be closing the studio, as she sees it as a burden.  She will teach 2 classes a month in a suburb about 30 min from here (closer to her house than mine).

 

But I'm out in the cold (or heat, or storm, or whatever the Queensland equivalent to cold is), and need to find a place to teach my classes and support my tiny little community I've worked so hard to build. 

 

What are you thinking?  Will you teach at other studios?  You may find that this simplifies your life, and may be a blessing!  Take a deep breath, and let yourself focus on one step at a time:  "What's Next?"  I thought I did a post on "What's Next" and using the increments to get through hard times, but I cannot find it now.  What's next?  Sometimes it's only the next breath, or the next meal, or taking out the trash - but focusing on one "Next" at a time helps you to get through "What's next?"
 

This Buddhist story by Alan Watts helps to give a clearer perspective:

 

I hope you see the sun today!

Edited October 13, 2018 by JanCarol

[DMV64]

Hey JC! I am at a birth right now!  Thanks for all you said here. I will respond more later. 

I have no idea what’s next. 

[JanCarol]

Hi D!

2 minutes ago, DMV64 said:

I have no idea what’s next. 

 

SURE you do!  You are at a birth.  What's next is whatever that birth needs.  Just that.

 

When your service is done there, and the baby is born, you will then look at What's next - go home, get sleep, get fed - just What's Next....

 

As for your plans - don't you teach at another studio?  Yoga is huge right now, and there are many #metoo women in yoga who would much prefer a female instructor.  Watch the Alan Watts video, and decide if a broken leg is a good thing or a bad thing.

 

And breathe!  You got this!

[DMV64]

I am still at this birth. Twins. We have had complications. I am tired 

[DMV64]

 Also I feel I’m never getting off this medicine wheel  Ugh

[JanCarol]

So - twins is next.

 

As a practitioner, I have to ask that "medicine" and "wheel" may not be the two words you want to put together there.

 

This is a Medicine Wheel:

And it is extremely useful for healing.  There is even a Recovery Medicine Wheel for Natives to use with 12 Step programs.

 

This is a squirrel wheel:

 

Maybe that's what you meant?

BTW, after you come off of them, and survive the psychiatrists and the diagnonsense and the drugging - we tend to cease to think of these drugs as "medicine."

Medicine is walks in the sun, clear cool water, herb teas, yoga, meditation, prayer, community....

 

Drugs are - drugs.

I reckon the drug wheel looks a lot like the squirrel one.  Except you are moving, it's just hard to see right now.

Edited October 13, 2018 by JanCarol

[DMV64]

Yes! Oh my god I am tired

[Rosetta]

Sending you a hug.  I am tired, too.

 

[DMV64]

13 hours ago, JanCarol said:

don't you teach at another studio

I teach at a gym in the city. I will pick up one more class there and see if I can manage to feel ok with three classes a week with adults and three with kids for now. Because I don't know what I really want to do next. Maybe still yoga, maybe not. Same with Doula work. It is very challenging during withdrawal because of the weird off and long hours and sleep. So I guess I am trying to stay open to the next thing.

[FarmGirlWorks]

Been reading your journey @DMV64... sorry about the studio and glad you have some other options (gym) that might work out.

[DMV64]

Thanks for stopping by. Yeah it’s a loss. I am still not really processing the whole thing. I guess it will take time. Not sure what’s next. 

[DMV64]

PEOPLE~ I have had an all day window!!!

[Rosetta]

 Wow!

[Lloyd]

Congrats! Great to hear and hope you have more of them and more frequently!!

[Rabe]

👍👍 YAY!💜

[Carmie]

23 hours ago, DMV64 said:

PEOPLE~ I have had an all day window!!!

 

Yay for you DMV, 

 

Windows help us to see we will eventually heal💚

[DMV64]

@manymoretodays @Carmie @JanCarol @Rosetta

I need help. I would like to eliminate the cogentin. I am at 1.1 Saphris and it was added for Saphris (I never had any issue with Geoden).

I am on .25 Cogentin. I saw my "team" of doc and resident this week and they said of all the things I was on it was the most benign and I could just stop it.

But I remember JanCarol saying I had to taper this too. 

So...what's the wisdom? Do I have to taper as slowly as others? Could I just stop? Please send me your thoughts. Help!

 

[manymoretodays]

On 9/13/2018 at 12:07 AM, JanCarol said:

On 9/11/2018 at 12:46 PM, DMV64 said:

I am really wondering if I need that Cogentin at this point. Can I just stop  it?

 

No, it will need to be tapered, too.  We don't really have protocols for Cogentin, it may be that you can go faster - when the time comes.

But you are still on 2 neuroleptics (Saphris and Geodon) - I don't want to touch the Cogentin until you are done with Saphris, and maybe halfway down on the Geodon.  You went on the Cogentin because you were having tardive symptoms - dystonias / dyskinesias.  We don't want those to return.

 

Really, you are doing incredibly well.  I'm going to remind you again that people who fast-tapered one drug (like what happened with Saphris in December) can become bed-bound, light averse, sensitive to food and sound, unable to be productive human beings - sometimes for up to 2 years, and then, when they pick activities back up again, they are still slow and gradual.  

 

If you want to give up work, or give up doula, or simplify your life in some way - and accept the disabilities that come with multi tapers, or faster tapers - then you could consider going faster.

 

If you want to maintain your high level of functioning, then simple, slow and steady is the way to go.  KISSS.  

* * *

 

Hi DMV,

I thought I would quote ^ for you.

And........sorry to hear that the studio came to an end.  Change IS tough sometimes.  Other times, for me at least........I find it to be enlightening, a bit........in that way that I put on those proverbial glasses of not just acceptance, but also embracing just the beauty of the the grand design.........something like that.

So you are feeling pretty withdrawal stable at this time?

 

2 hours ago, DMV64 said:

I am on .25 Cogentin. I saw my "team" of doc and resident this week and they said of all the things I was on it was the most benign and I could just stop it.

But I remember JanCarol saying I had to taper this too. 

So...what's the wisdom? Do I have to taper as slowly as others? Could I just stop? Please send me your thoughts. Help!

I'm interested to hear what conclusions you have reached.  Have you looked around the site for possible others who have used Cogentin?  Done any research on your own?  Yada, yada yada yah..........  When and how did you decrease from .50 to .25 of Cogentin?

 

All for now,  I'll look about a bit....... as well, in the meantime.

Love, peace, healing, and growth

mmt

 

Edited October 21, 2018 by manymoretodays
none

[DMV64]

2 minutes ago, manymoretodays said:

25

 Hi there. I don’t even remember when I reduced the dosage it was a while ago. I don’t think I was on .50 for very long. I haven’t done much research I’m just feeling kind of desperate this morning. I can’t say that I’m feeling really good right now today in my taper. So I just thought I’d pop in and ask the question because it’s been on my mind and I just saw the doctors. 

I asked my husband to help reflect back to me how I’m doing since it’s very hard for me to tell day today. He feels generally I’m doing better but I have a lot of depression. It alternates with the morning anxiety. I have decided to simplify my life and I’m closing my studio and potential he taking on much less Doula work.

I guess what I want to say here is that I feel I need to try to move things along because there are times when I do feel suicidal thinking comes in a little too strong and because of my polypharmacy it just feels like I’m never going to get anywhere. It would be different if it was one drug that I could track over three years.

[DMV64]

Also I have to say is that I feel like I am really crappy at finding things on this site. I don’t know if it is the brain fog or what but I’m just not a good searcher. I guess I’ll just put Cogentin into the search box and see what I find.

[DMV64]

ok well most of what I see is what I wrote! ha!

[manymoretodays]

Hi again,

I was just adding a bit of a postscript to my other, which I abandoned when I saw your replies.

I'm wondering what the "team" thinks about your present cocktail?  Just curious on that.

 

And oh DMV.......

5 minutes ago, DMV64 said:

I asked my husband to help reflect back to me how I’m doing since it’s very hard for me to tell day today. He feels generally I’m doing better but I have a lot of depression. It alternates with the morning anxiety. I have decided to simplify my life and I’m closing my studio and potential he taking on much less Doula work.

I guess what I want to say here is that I feel I need to try to move things along because there are times when I do feel suicidal thinking comes in a little too strong and because of my polypharmacy it just feels like I’m never going to get anywhere. It would be different if it was one drug that I could track over three years.

What works for you best?  Nondrug coping wise. 

So you are saying that is the cause for your mood?  Polypharmacy and suicidal thinking?    How often are you in a neutral mood?

 

This feeling of moving things along as related to your suicidal thinking and polypharmacy??  I think I somewhat follow, as I've erred, with tapering........in the past, thinking that somehow the outer change there, would create some inner change that was illusive at that time.  For me......that thinking was a bit faulty, and did indeed come with consequences.  I did more down time(compromised) than I'd like to admit sometimes.  By downtime I don't mean losing a studio, or passing moods.......I was completely non functional.......and without a clue as to why........oh, well......I thought it was my illness back then I suppose.  Or that if I removed a drug that would be the cure.  I mean it has been for me........the cure...... of understanding so very much more........and study, and contemplation........and using what I've got......have always had.

........just some more thoughts.

 

(((((DMV)))))

You are experiencing growing pains, no doubt.

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

[DMV64]

4 minutes ago, manymoretodays said:

You are experiencing growing pains, no doubt.

I want to believe this MMT. But today I feel not so much hope. Lots of fear.

My "team" thinks my case is quite complex. They are a treatment resistant research based university team, and the doc is quite highly respected. However, still he suggests me going faster than I know I can. So now we are going my rate. But I have made a lot of mistakes MMT, along the way.

My neutral mood comes and goes. Maybe 50 percent. Then 30 percent depression and anxiety. Then the last part deeper suicidal feelings.Feeling like I will never get better, that it will be so long, I can't make it.

10 minutes ago, manymoretodays said:

Or that if I removed a drug that would be the cure.  I mean it has been for me........the cure...... of understanding so very much more........and study, and contemplation........and using what I've got......have always had.

What do you mean by this??? Can you explain.

[DMV64]

Just not sure how fast I can taper cogentin...Everything seems like crapshoot

[manymoretodays]

Nothing cryptic......as far as what I meant by that.  It's been a journey.  If it could have been a journey, for me.......of knowing some of what I know now.......back then.......well, it would have been different is all I think I meant.

 

I like JanCarol's idea for your tapering.

[DMV64]

You mean waiting on the cogentin?

[DMV64]

I guess I just feel like I’m losing my strength and my will to go on. At least today. 

[brassmonkey]

I was just taking a look at cogentin and from what I found it may not be as benign as they think.  It plays with neurotransmitters and can cause addiction, so I would suggest using our usual taper schedule of 10% every four weeks.  It may be possible to go faster but we are all in a sensitized state and need to error on the conservative side when tapering. 

[DMV64]

Ok. Thank you for the information. Yet another drug to taper!

[Rosetta]

Hi.  I've been there -- it an amazing window and then crashing into misery soon after.  It's very hard.  I know we have different circumstances, and I'm saying I can relate to how demoralizing it is to go from feeling good to back in the thick of it.  I'm sorry you are going through this, DMV.  Hugs, R

 

[manymoretodays]

Hey DMV,   I didn't mean to leave you just stranded after your last question.   Looks like you got some good further input.  I think you should stay put with the Cogentin......  And you can always search off site as well for information.  Interesting and good that you have a "team" I think.  That whole term "treatment resistent depression" though.....sounds unhopeful.  From a research standpoint I so do hope that they factor in polypharmacy.....as to how it sometimes perpetuates "illness".....sometimes the single drugs even seemed to worsen me.  That was my experience.  And W/D too.....I hope they look at that too...as a factor,  if or when you report symptoms.....even validate your experience a bit.  Yes...more hugs....and know it does get better.  L, P, H, and growth.  mmt

[DMV64]

Yes they actually do use the term polypharmacy. So in some ways they are really great and up on some of the latest research. But in other ways they still believe in the 10% a week titration or tapering schedule. They accept that I cannot go that fast but that was their original recommendation.

[manymoretodays]

Good.  You are teaching!  It might help someone else.