DMV64: reinstate Saphris?

[manymoretodays]

On 12/27/2018 at 6:16 AM, DMV64 said:

@manymoretodays @JanCarol Ok so I am dissolving my whole dose of 2.5 (on box dose) in 5ml water and taking 2ml and holding it in mouth for 10 minutes right? I am on .009 now. The new dose should be .008 down from a total scale weight of .025. 

 

Are you dissolving your 2.5 mgai wafer already?  Or just talking about sometime in the future tense.

When you dissolve, the weights in grams, will have no bearing at all.  When you say you are on .009 or .008 that only refers to weight, not dose strength at all.

 

We want you to report mgai only, in your signature.

.009 on your scale in grams: 9 mgpw (still talking about weight here, neither of these are your dose strength)

9 mgpw multiplied by an AIC of 0.1 mgai/1 mgpw = 0.9 mgai

0.9 mgai is your present dose strength.

That's what you should record for us.

I should have noted that on that last post to you and may go back and edit that now.

Here's that post again......math when using scale

 

When/if you go to liquid:

2.5 mgai(dose strength on box for each wafer) dissolved in 5 mL of water= .5 mg in each 1 ml.

So 2 ml would take you back up to a dose of 1.0 mgai.

 

We'll no longer want to talk about grams of pill weights at all, which is what you have been recording in your signature.

 

Almost into 2019!

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

 

 

 

 

[DMV64]

Thanks MMT. STILL math is like another language. Yes I was refreshing For the future. One of my side effects of this cocktail is that my memory is terrible.

[Rosetta]

HI DMV.  

 

I hope you are feeling better and that the endoscopy went well.  

 

Maybe you can talk with your son about that later.  That would be so surprising I wouldn't know what to say at the time.  Find a time to chat about it long before he makes plans for next year.  A time when you are feeling ok.  

 

Take care, R

[DMV64]

Yes. Good suggestion to wait til I feel better. We have gotten into it a few times already. Sigh.  

[DMV64]

On 12/30/2018 at 10:14 PM, manymoretodays said:

AIC

What does this stand for?

 

On 12/30/2018 at 10:14 PM, manymoretodays said:

mgpw multiplied by an AIC of 0.1 mgai/1 mgpw = 0.9 mgai

Also I guess this is the confusing part. Why I am I multiplying by these numbers in particular. 0.1. Over 1. Also I forget what mgai stands for. This is upsetting to me. I know you have told me and I will look back. But I just struggle. 

[DMV64]

@JanCarol @manymoretodays  Hey I just came across this thing… The Wim Hof method. It looks pretty cool involving breathing and gradual exposure to cold. I just started looking at the website but I’m wondering if you guys all know about it. Probably you do. I think I might give it a try

[FarmGirlWorks]

I know a little about it too. Cold exposure is used in many traditions; I've heard about Wim Hof but do not know his practice. It is supposed to stimulate the vagus nerve and lower heart rate and blood pressure. I am sure there is a lot more. I do a cold rinse after showers (up to 30 seconds or so) concentrating on my heart area. Highly recommend.

[Rabe]

Hi DMV...yes it does stimulate the vagus nerve.  I would move slowly with all that Wimhof does...see how things go.  

I know Kristine has posted recently about cold dips making her feel better and she has been doing that...you could perhaps talk to her about it if she is up to it?

I know they used cold items in treatment...would keep an orange in the freezer...to help with panic and agitation.  Not sure it was very effective...not like a cold dip but thought process was good.  Although I have to say I was driving back from my daughters Tuesday paniced and I had my cold food container and took out the peanut butter and held it to my face and it did help a bit.  

Id be interested to hear how it goes DMV.  Hope you are feeling better about all that you have been dealing with.  Wanted you to know I have been thinking about you!

Take care!💜

[JanCarol]

Hey D - 

 

mgai = mg active ingredient.  

mgpw = mg total pill weight.

 

Your 2.5 mg Saphris weighs 25 mg.  That's 2.5 mgai for 25 mgpw.

 

Wim Hof is for people who are in better shape.  It is very stimulating.  I have run short experiments on it, and it is very energizing (even without the cold showers).

I believe I have posted about it here: 

   What I recommend for withdrawal is alternate nostril breathing, and some of the techniques listed here:

 

You want calming, not activating breathing.  When you are better, and find yourself fighting fatigue or they physical symptoms post withdrawal you may find the Wim Hof techniques quite remarkable.

The Cold can be used in showers in brief bursts.  It is excellent for anhedonia and disorientation - by shocking the senses and the skin just a bit to help you centre.  You can alternate warm / hot / cold / warm / cold / hot in the shower just to experience it.  See how it affects you before you take it on as a practice.  I do recommend trying to confuse the senses in people on neuroleptics - it helps to retrain the brain.  Other ways of doing this are standing on one leg to brush your teeth, brushing your teeth with the wrong hand, closing your eyes and spinning in a circle, then opening them to re-orient.  

 

Npanth ( a former SA member, and now healed) writes on his blog:

Quote

 

NERVE REGENERATION CAN CAUSE UNPLEASANT SENSATIONS. As counterintuitive as it is, HEALING CAN FEEL LIKE HURT. :)

 

But it’s NOT further hurt or damage. It’s the REVERSAL of damage.

 

Um – yeah – okay. Great – but what do I DO about it.

 

Pretty much the things that I have discovered that help through this healing are to “CONFUSE” the nerves as much as possible, IF possible.

 

What? Confuse the nerves?

 

You know how you get a cut or an insect bite and you immediately press on it to make it feel less painful? What you are doing when you press or squeeze the area is “desensitizing’ the entire skin region of the cut by applying pressure to ALL the nerves in the area. That way, the ONE sensation of pain from the cut isn’t the only thing your brain is feeling. The pressure from pushing down on ALL the nerves in the area helps to send multiple sensation to the brain to “counteract” the pain sensation. And it works.

 

Similarly, other things can help “confuse” nerves:

-Heat

-Cold

-Deep Pressure

– Massage

-creams like “Icy Hot” with menthol

 

All of these things have helped me cope in recovery.

 

Let me take it one by one:

Heat: I took and STILL take hot baths almost every day. In the peak of akathisia, I lived in the tub. :) As hot as I could stand it really helped me. All the heat was “overregistering” in my brain and I was unable to feel the akathisia as much when in the tub. It was confusing the nerve signal and it was temporary relief. I hated those days. But I got through them. Likewise, a heating pad for pain was my friend a lot of the time.

 

-Cold – I used a cold washcloth on burning skin – and on my face and hands – and kept dipping it in ice water and applying it. This is an easy one, but it helped. I had a wave with 3 days of “fireface” last month and all I could do was apply the washcloth, lay there and think about how “this is healing” and keep going. But the wave passed.

 

Deep Pressure I use a 15 pound weighted blanket to sleep. I have for YEARS. I ordered it online. It has many pockets with little plastic balls equally distributed to create a very heavy blanket that creates “deep pressure”. This kind of pressure is calming for anyone’s nervous system. Occupational Therapists use it for children with autism, but people with anxiety can benefit from sleeping with one. And in recovery, I was glad to have it. I used it often together with a heating pad. It took the edge off just long enough.

 

Massage This one CAN be helpful – but sometimes not. I used to ask my husband just to “press down” on my head or my legs. Just press there. Don’t rub. My skin hurt too much to rub, but the deep pressure from pressing was helpful. Other times, the actual massage was a help for sore muscles. I was too agoraphobic to schedule a REAL massage. LOL. But just this help from my family was nice to have.

 

Creams You’re going to laugh, but there was a day that I put Vick’s VapoRub on my face because my face was so HOT! I figured if this is safe for my baby’s skin, it’s probably okay to try it on my face. It worked! Oh man – my face felt SO good all day. I used that for a few days until the wave passed. I have also tried “Icy Hot” on my back when it was sore. Things like this work on the same principal to “confuse the nerves”. If your nerves are too busy feeling the heat/cool of menthol, they cannot simultaneously feel “pain”. So for a short time, the pain is not “felt” even though the “soreness” is technically still there.

 

All of these are ways I have coped. I’m sure there are others you guys have used!! :)

 

The broad idea here is that

1) Healing is happening.

2) The sensations that feel like injury are NOT injury. They are the CORRECTION of nerve injury. They just “fire off” as they heal.

3) We can use some things to cope.

4) It’s going away in time.

I know this is not a “fix” to the feelings.
from:  https://npanth.wordpress.com/2012/03/14/phases-of-ssri-withdrawal/  

 

There are other references to this in people's threads, but I can no longer remember who or where they are.
 

[JanCarol]

Hey D - 

On 12/21/2018 at 4:08 AM, DMV64 said:

This was not my daughters first anti-depressant. She had been on a few others for short periods of time. I hope that she has made it successfully off and does not have the 3 to 6 month crash.

 

If she reinstates and tapers she can possibly prevent a crash.

 

This is the hardest part of my job - getting people to reinstate when they "feel fine."  We call it the "honeymoon period."

On 12/24/2018 at 11:20 PM, DMV64 said:

Whew, oysters in the can. I don't think I could do that!

 

Pumpkin seeds, or peptias, are also high in Zinc.  Cashews contain about half  the zinc of pepitas per serve.  Dark chocolate is pretty good, too!

 

On 12/27/2018 at 11:27 PM, DMV64 said:

Also my son informed me that going forward he would be spending the holidays with his future wife’s family

 

Ah, they grow up, and they grow up.  In my first marriage it was always a big drama but fortunately my family was more flexible than his family, which insisted that we be at their house at exactly noon on Christmas day for Christmas Dinner (same with Thanksgiving).  And my mother and father couldn't be in the same room at the same time - ever (until my second husband).  So we went to Dad's on Christmas Eve, his folks on Christmas Day, and Mom's on day-after-Christmas, which was her wedding anniversary, to prevent it becoming a day of mourning for her lost marriage....

I listen to my friends with children - and the children's partners and in-laws and all of the dramas with "who is going to be where, when."

Breathe.  Let it unfold.  The holidays are over for now.  Don't take it personally - just know that every family seems to go through stuff like this.  It's normal! 

 

19 hours ago, DMV64 said:

On 12/31/2018 at 1:14 PM, manymoretodays said:

AIC

What does this stand for?

 

 

Active Ingredient Concentration.

 

So - if you have a 25 mgpw (how much the pill weighs) and 2.5 mgai (active ingredient)

Your AIC - which you will use to calculate how strong your dose is

AIC = 25/2.5 = 10.  That means that the pill is 10x heavier than the active ingredient.

Think of it like blueberry pancakes.  Your pancakes are only 10% blueberries.  But you have to use the whole pancake.  We are only interested in how much blueberries you are taking.

 

So if you have 100 g pancakes, there are only 10 g of blueberries (100/AIC of 10).  Does this help?  @manymoretodays please check my maths!

I know you are having cog fog - but MMT posted the link:  math when using scale  - please use this link when you have questions about terminology!

 

And I hope you see the sun today!

 

[DMV64]

4 hours ago, JanCarol said:

AIC = 25/2.5 = 10.

@JanCarol But I think the wafer weighs .25 on the scale. Or maybe even .025 could that be right? I have to check a whole one. 

[DMV64]

I am still so sick. 2nd round antibiotics and prednisone and right ear still clogged. Ugh.  I did the Wim Hof breathing this morning. It helped. I am really interested in the chronic inflammation part. I know I am allergic to my dog. I am in an accelerated state of constant inflammation Because of that. And so it’s hard to get better. And considers starting shot. 

[DMV64]

8 hours ago, FarmGirlWorks said:

recommend

I tried 10 seconds last night!

[DMV64]

Thank you everyone for all your thoughts and information and kindnesses. 

[JanCarol]

14 minutes ago, DMV64 said:

4 hours ago, JanCarol said:

AIC = 25/2.5 = 10.

@JanCarol But I think the wafer weighs .25 on the scale. Or maybe even .025 could that be right? I have to check a whole one

 

Your scale measures in milligrams.

 

.001 = 1 mg

 

.025 = 25 mg.

 

So - do I have the AIC wrong?

 

If I do, and you are seeing .25 on scale, then it is 250 mg, and your AIC is 100.  

 

250/2.5 = 100

Then only 1% of your pancake is blueberries.

Please verify.

[manymoretodays]

4 hours ago, DMV64 said:

@JanCarol But I think the wafer weighs .25 on the scale. Or maybe even .025 could that be right? I have to check a whole one. 

 

Yes, please do get a reading of a whole 2.5mgai wafer, DMV.

I based my math on your reading of .025 grams dry weight for a 2.5 mgai wafer.

Thanks,

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

[DMV64]

The scale report is in !  A whole wafer is 0.025 

[manymoretodays]

DMV,

 

Okay good.

My recent math was good.  I updated your signature with your present dose in mgai.

 

For JC, or both of you,

 

The AIC is the active ingredient concentration.

AIC: Active Ingredient Concentration. This represents a ratio of how much active ingredient is in a set amount of each pill/tablet. For the ease of calculation, when weighing, that set amount is based at 1.0 mgpw.(thank you brassmonkey for clarifying some of these terms)

 

So.......assuming that you got an average pill weight of .025 gram on your scale for your 2.5 mgai dose strength pill/tablet.

.025 grams of pill weight : 25mgpw

2.5mgai/divided by 25= 0.1 mgai/1 mgpw

8 hours ago, JanCarol said:

Your AIC - which you will use to calculate how strong your dose is

AIC = 25/2.5 = 10.  That means that the pill is 10x heavier than the active ingredient.

It's the opposite.  We want to figure out how much mgai there is in 1 mgpw. 

The pill is not always 10X heavier than the active ingredient........that won't hold up across the board, for all pill weights in milligrams, and milligrams of active ingredient.

mgai:  milligram active ingredient

mgpw: milligram pill weight

 

 

2.5 mgai/25mgpw.  Divide both sides by 25 to get  0.1 mgai/1 mgpw or in verbal terms there is 0.1 mgai in each 1 mgpw.

I hope that helps.

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

[DMV64]

Yes thank you it helps and I appreciate all your efforts. It’s still kind of comes down to for me that I will need step-by-step help every time I am making a cut just because of my deficits in this area. What I really want to know is how long I can continue to use the dry does cut, since it is easier. How low can I go? Can I go down to .007 or would that be too big of a percentage drop

[JanCarol]

8 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

.025 grams of pill weight : 25mgpw

2.5mgai/divided by 25= 0.1 mgai/1 mgpw

 

Of course the maths for AIC would be the opposite of how I do it at my house!

 

This would mean that your pancakes are 10% blueberries, still. For every 9 bits of pancake (filler) there is 1 bit of blueberries (active ingredient)

 

And yes - this ratio changes for every drug. 

But for this taper, it's a nice, even number.

 

You should go to liquid on your next taper - but if you are sick and taking a bunch of steroids and antibiotics (and still sick - so this may take awhile), you should not taper until all this is smoothed over, and you're feeling better. 

 

Continuing to taper while you are sick can get you into more strife.

You're almost through the Saphris, it will go away sometime this year.  Take your time, let's make sure it's gone for good!
 

 

[DMV64]

Ok. I am planning on January 20 if all goes well. I am scared. Scared I am going to mess it up. I have a very mathy friend who can help me though. That and all of you should save me. 

[DMV64]

I am still so sick. 2nd round antibiotics and prednisone and right ear still clogged. Ugh.  I did the Wim Hof breathing this morning. It helped. I am really interested in the chronic inflammation part. I know I am allergic to my dog. I am in an accelerated state of constant inflammation Because of that. And so it’s hard to get better. And considers starting shot. 

[Rabe]

Gee whiz DMV!  SO thinking about you!  Take care of you!  Please get well soon!!💜

[DMV64]

Thank you. I am really kind of distraught. This on top of withdrawal is just too much. 5 weeks sick plus finding out allergies to my little dog is complicating it. I just feel like crying. 

[Carmie]

 

Hi DMV, 

 

I’m so sorry you’re allergic to your dog, that’s very sad. It’s good to have a good cry every now and again, I was bawling last night. Sending you big hugs🤗

 

Edited January 10, 2019 by Carmie
Got rid of white space

[DMV64]

Also I’m going to have to go onto the antihistamine after all. I don’t know how to add it to my signature from my phone so I’ll have to do it later. I’m debating between Claritin and xyzal

[Rosetta]

(((DMV))). I wish I could fix it for you.  Maybe the anti-histamine will help.

[Rabe]

Oh DMV I am so sorry about your allergy...you had a dog before right?  On top of everything else thats crazy!  BUT...good thing is that getting that under control  should

help your system better fight everything else instead of having to split itself into dealing with two things.  

I have used Claritin along the way....when I was reacting to the CLonazepam and other meds...and had no problems with it and I react to lots.  

Thinking about you DMV!!  Take care!!!💜

[DMV64]

I didn’t have a dog before. I got her about nine months ago. I know I’m allergic to dogs but I was hoping for the best she is a little terrier mix. And I did OK pretty much in the beginning but then once winter came in the blowing air heat started I got sick.

[Rabe]

Terriers are usually less allergenic...I am so sorry DMV.  I know how excited you were to get her.  

Is this a new living space?  Could it be something with the heating/vents there?  I have had problems at places along the way.  Probably grabbing at straws cause am feeling so bad for you.  I do so hope things will settle and you will be able to keep her.  💜

[DMV64]

I really think it’s the blowing air heat that made it unmanageable. And then I just got sick and I couldn’t quite recover from that respiratory infection with the allergies happening at the same time. But we’re doing everything we can with humidifiers and air filters and trying to keep her just on the first floor. Plus I’m going to do the antihistamine in the shots. Thanks for thinking of me

[JanCarol]

 

Hey D - 

 

I'm just breezing through tonight.

 

If you want to take an antihistamine, be sure and run it through:

Drugs.com Drug Interaction checker

 

and list ALL of the drugs you are taking.  You are taking so many drugs that the possibilities of interaction are exponential.

 

Even the most innocent of non-drowsy medications might have a liver enzyme conflict.

 

Better safe than sorry.

 

Edited January 11, 2019 by JanCarol

[JanCarol]

Hey D - 

 

So - talk to me about the Wim Hof - are you doing the showers with the breathing?

 

How does it feel, how do you feel when you do it and after?

 

Does it ground you?  Open you up?  Make you feel better?

Please describe?

[DMV64]

Hey there. I am doing the breathing and the cold showers. I haven’t yet gone outside in shorts or done the ice bath but I’m going to do the 10 week course I think. It really helps to do the breathing in the morning and then I do push-ups on an Empty and then a 30 to one minute headstand. It is helping with the morning panic. Add ground me and as he says it makes me feel good. I think he quoted as high on your own supply!

[DMV64]

I will have to do the drugs.com fact checking later when I get home. Although I remember are you ready did this when I first thought I was going to take an antihistamine and it was OK. But I’ll just doublecheck.

[DMV64]

 I really think the wim Hof method is onto something good.