DMV64: reinstate Saphris?

[Rosetta]

I know the feeling.  Had it last night.  Usually mornings are awful, but instead it was bedtime for me.  You will make it, of course.  Are you feeling better now? -R

[DMV64]

 I think I’m just really tired. It’s hard to do the day after day of the morning cortisols spikes and the up-and-down’s anxiety and depression. Plus I’m taking this class that is really kicking my butt. It’s at night and it’s really not coming naturally to me. I’m glad I tried it but I’ll be glad when it’s over. 

[Rabe]

Hi DMV....I have been in 12 step for long time and NEVer witnessed what you went through though there were always those who stepped right in and started running things and telling newcomers what they SHOULD and SHOULD not do.  Gratefully my sponsor was never like that.  She is fabulous and I feel this happened for a reason...so that you could get someone more supportive just as you have.  You have been through and are going through enough without such unconstructive thoughts shared.  As I said...this is about her...but she is not looking at her own issues around it but putting it all on your plate instead I think.  She may not even be aware of what is going on...not that that is an excuse.  

Im glad to hear you have found another sponsor and that you are finding some answers!  Will Zelda not be able to come back then, huh?  Take care1💜

[DMV64]

6 hours ago, Rabe said:

Will Zelda not be able to come back then, huh?

Hello! thanks for stopping by! Zelda IS back, that's why she dropped me. She felt I was taking my will back and not letting go. Sigh. It makes me sad but I guess it is for the best like you said. It's hard being in recovery because not everyone understands withdrawal. I had someone tell me: You just have to get that "T" word (as in taper or titrate) out of your vocabulary. Like that would solve it. I have also had people tell me to get out of my head, which is a saying in program but not really applicable to withdrawal you know?

Some people have been very supportive though. I also go to Al-anon and I get a lot of support there.

I am meeting with my new sponsor today at 3pm. I have been in 18 years and have had a few sponsors and we could always (except 1 other one) agree to disagree. 

Thanks for sharing your experiences!

xo

-D

[Rosetta]

Dysautonomia happens to people who CT alcohol, too.  It's always been considered "rare."  (Where have we heared that before?). AA sponsors do recognize how dangerous CT'ing alcohol can be, right?  Is the idea that it can cause long term health issues absent from the discussion?

 

I read an article recently by a doctor in the UK who told some of his patients that they had to keep drinking while they were waiting for placement in programs to help them quit drinking.  He said it took so long for people to get help that he saw people with severe alcohol dependency who nearly died because they tried to stop CT.  I suppose people who are aware of delirium tremens morbidity and do not risk death from delirium tremens try to join AA and are then forced out?  Or maybe they abstain and sometimes die, and so AA doesn't see them try to "taper?"  (I know very little about AA except that CT is the only way.)

 

It simply surprises me that AA has been around so long and that this issue of physical decline and mental difficulties after CT of alcohol (and benzos) has never been incorporated into the program somehow.  In fact, it's such a prolific program that I wouldn't be shocked if someone in the program connected the dots between CT and dysautonomia long ago!!  I suppose dysautonomia is very poorly understood and can present with such a wide range of symptoms that it's rarely diagnosed. 

 

Perhaps there is a belief that if one survives long enough the danger from delirium tremens has passed, but any ongoing health issues are attributed to damaged organs, not a syndrome called dysautonomia that involves the CNS being compromised? Maybe the connection between deadly DT and less deadly severe illness for a long period of time is rarely made by sponsors and long term members?  Sometimes I find it incredible how large groups of people dealing with societal problems over decades can be so blind to the forest made up of trees.  

 

This experience has made me question the philosophy of AA -  that CT is the only way for everyone.  Could it be that some people are dealing with an unintended consequence of their successful efforts to kick alcohol -- the same syndrome we risk in CTing psych drugs?  I used to believe their brains (and livers and kidneys) were damaged by the alcohol, but understanding neuroplasticity as I do now I think the brain could heal just fine given enough time after alcohol discontinuation IF psych drugs (as well as other toxins) were not introduced to the equation.  Maybe some are put on psych drugs after alcohol discontinuation because they start to experience mental difficulties caused by dysautonomia due alcohol CT?  

 

Rosetta

[DMV64]

Hi Rosetta!

Thank you for everything you’ve said here. I definitely agree that there are many people who are in program and wind up on psych meds from going cold turkey off of alcohol. In fact maybe I’m one of them I don’t know. I did not wind up on this whole cocktail of meds right after I got sober it took some years but it could be. 

Honestly I’m terrified of when I have to begin the taper of the benzo’s. I believe that they are the cause of a lot of my mornings are you and Hannah and paranoia. I just hope that I can do it!

Anyway like I said I have felt very misunderstood in my recovery program at times and they can really throw me off so I have to be careful what I say. 

Xo

[manymoretodays]

On 4/9/2019 at 8:51 PM, Rosetta said:

Dysautonomia happens to people who CT alcohol, too.  It's always been considered "rare."  (Where have we heared that before?). AA sponsors do recognize how dangerous CT'ing alcohol can be, right?  Is the idea that it can cause long term health issues absent from the discussion?

 

I read an article recently by a doctor in the UK who told some of his patients that they had to keep drinking while they were waiting for placement in programs to help them quit drinking.  He said it took so long for people to get help that he saw people with severe alcohol dependency who nearly died because they tried to stop CT.  I suppose people who are aware of delirium tremens morbidity and do not risk death from delirium tremens try to join AA and are then forced out?  Or maybe they abstain and sometimes die, and so AA doesn't see them try to "taper?"  (I know very little about AA except that CT is the only way.)

 

It simply surprises me that AA has been around so long and that this issue of physical decline and mental difficulties after CT of alcohol (and benzos) has never been incorporated into the program somehow.  In fact, it's such a prolific program that I wouldn't be shocked if someone in the program connected the dots between CT and dysautonomia long ago!!  I suppose dysautonomia is very poorly understood and can present with such a wide range of symptoms that it's rarely diagnosed. 

 

Perhaps there is a belief that if one survives long enough the danger from delirium tremens has passed, but any ongoing health issues are attributed to damaged organs, not a syndrome called dysautonomia that involves the CNS being compromised? Maybe the connection between deadly DT and less deadly severe illness for a long period of time is rarely made by sponsors and long term members?  Sometimes I find it incredible how large groups of people dealing with societal problems over decades can be so blind to the forest made up of trees.  

 

This experience has made me question the philosophy of AA -  that CT is the only way for everyone.  Could it be that some people are dealing with an unintended consequence of their successful efforts to kick alcohol -- the same syndrome we risk in CTing psych drugs?  I used to believe their brains (and livers and kidneys) were damaged by the alcohol, but understanding neuroplasticity as I do now I think the brain could heal just fine given enough time after alcohol discontinuation IF psych drugs (as well as other toxins) were not introduced to the equation.  Maybe some are put on psych drugs after alcohol discontinuation because they start to experience mental difficulties caused by dysautonomia due alcohol CT?  

 

Rosetta

 

Hey Rosetta,

If you only knew.  How much I've struggled over a response to your inquiries.  Around the AA program.  Which is a 12 step program.  And the first of it's kind, as far as 12 steps go.

You have some good questions and conclusions drawn about looking at similarities between heavy alcohol usage and then WD from that.......be it CT or a somewhat supported short term WD......perhaps in a facility that can monitor and treat some of the more acute symptoms of alcohol long term and heavy usage.  And then some of the longer term symptoms that might overlap with what we see here........during and after WD from AD's and other classes of drugs.

 

I just want to clarify for you that AA is not some kind of treatment modality at all.........not like a detox center, or treatment facility, or new aged WD clinic or any kind.  Not a "spokesperson type group" for or against any outside issues.

 

It's a program for alcoholics.  Then there are lot's and lot's of other programs that have adopted a 12 step approach.  Nothing in the 12 steps demands CT for everyone.  No one sits in meetings discussing long term outcomes post sobriety from alcohol.  There is no group consensus on dysautonomia, or neuroplasticity, or even resilence.  Oh one does hear terms like "wet brain" in meetings sometimes.  It's all rather old timey but really effective for the ism of alcoholism.  I hate to keep sounding so evasive but I'm really trying to word this right, by AA.   I consider it a spiritual program for a spiritual malady......now that my physical cravings for weed and alcohol are in check.  I was never a gutter "drunk" or lost everything "drunk".......not all of us are or were.  I'm very fortunate really.......all things considered.

 

AA as such, prefers to stay out of "outside issues", doesn't seek to be a leading authority on anything outside of AA.

Again, great thoughts and questions by you. 

AA does help me with WD.  Indirectly really.  And outside of meetings perhaps is where discussions might take place around the things you are concerned with.  The things that I think you might be thinking AA endorses or even condones, which they don't, as a whole.  AA, as such, prefers to stay out of the limelight of other issues.  Prefers to stay out of the limelight period.

 

Some other members here do both.  AA and then their own program of coming to terms, firming up their own beliefs and truths around the psychoactive drugs prescribed to them, either for strictly medical reasons or many like me.......I honestly thought for a good while I had some MI that would be fixed by meds.  I don't subscribe to MI diagnoses anymore.  I do see a therapist once in awhile.  There are some like me in this regard, in AA, and some very unlike me in this regard in AA.  Just like in my life outside of AA.   I don't generally go to AA to find agreement with all of my WD choices and all my ideas on overmedication and what I think about psychiatry.  I don't expect my sponsor to totally want to talk about all this.......all that is so much a part of me now.........as far as what I've learned and adopted for myself........as far as a whole new belief system around the whole "mental illness system".  Or my journey basically surviving antidepressants and all other type of psychoactive prescribed for me.

 

My life program as tuned in to WD issues and symptoms sometimes overlaps with my AA program.  Sometimes it has to be separated though.

There are good fits and bad fits with sponsors all the time.  I'm sorry too, that DMV64 didn't get a good fit with that last one.  I'll tell you though......no one who seeks me out for advice there, is ever going to be told to CT- alcohol(heavy usage anyway), or other.  Drugs are really more of the problem in my region......with the women........and I'm not talking psychiatric drugs prescribed to them.  I may be heading to the more "nice, nice, bracelet clinking- heavy jewelry and plastic surgery groups soon".  It's tough, tough work......many lost.  Very sad.  I'm slowly getting more emotionally stronger and refuse to be harsh with any of the newbies.

 

DMV64, you're not a newbie though.......are you?  You're just trying to get settled in again in AA, in your new area aren't you?  Is IOP all done now?  Still good to work those steps with someone.......I'm into 8 and 9.  Yet heavily doing 1-7 every day.  Especially 1.  It'll get better there for you I hope.  I need the social and groups and really do relate to so much there.  So, unlikely I'll really move out of the more urban AA, to be with the jewelry clinkers.  Had a great time after a meeting last Sunday at the "retiree restaurant"  we go to.  Lot's of Love and laughter, mixed ages, mixed everything.......so much fun.  Held a charmer, 6 month old boy, who I really bonded with!

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

Edited April 12, 2019 by manymoretodays
Egads, that's a long one...... :-)

[DMV64]

Hi all. 

 This is a good discussion. I’ve been in program for 18 years. And I was not on nearly as many meds as I wound up on,  even insobriety. I do find there is a lot of differing opinions within the program and other 12 step programs in general on with drawl. I’ve gotten support  and understanding., and I’ve also gotten people who told me I just needed to get the titration word out of my vocabulary and get out of my head.

I’ve learned that I can’t share everything a group level and I even have to sometimes limit when I say to my sponsor. I suppose there is a place for everything and sometimes I need to keep things separate.

 So in short sometimes I feel supported and sometimes I feel judged. 

[manymoretodays]

I think it comes down to you DMV64.  The inside job, you know.

Of course you don't need to get the titration/tapering word out of your vocabulary. 

Maybe you'll find people who would be interested and can use it then.

Perhaps just make some decisions or do some discernment as far as Who you share this stuff with.......in your whole outside world, not just AA.  I've had to.

 

I was really saddened by the attack on AA.  It hurt.  Most of us in it, and who stay with it......Love it.   I think that's really what I needed to say.  And am thankful for the freedom to say that.

 

I think it was a bit misinformed.  That's all.  No problem Rosetta.  I believe in free speech.  If you feel the need to bash AA and all 12 step programs......well, have at it.  I won't take it personally anymore.

 

I've been taught......outside of the meeting, how to deal with folks in acute alcohol WD, or even where to take them for harm reduction in the immediate time frame.  We don't have places to take people WDing from the other outside drugs though(street drugs in other words).......that get anything but a CT, quick detox.  It stinks.  That has nothing to do with AA though.   Or "their philosophy", as you put it.  I think the principles outlined in the BB and traditions are on a different track completely from what you might be assuming.  I don't know. 

 

I also don't/won't do any "12 step" calls on my own anymore.  Not if it involves early WD.  I take another AAer with me.  That way "we" can come up with "best practice" for that time frame.  And then hopefully, follow up later.   I can't bring everyone home and manage them forever.  I mean I wish I could sometimes.  Yet.....I learn.  Personal boundaries and limits for myself.  I mean maybe......just maybe I can save even just a few, from getting mired into the whole pharmacological/biomedical models of care for "everything" now.  That's my hope and plan.  Part of it.  I'll let you all know how it pans out. 

 

DMV64,  You are certainly educated enough now to know NOT to listen to anyone that treats your benzo, and other remaining drugs like an "addiction".   Or tells you to CT.  You've got time to go, and other meds. to tackle before your benzo.  I wouldn't dwell on that now.  NO FUTURE TRIPPING.  Okay.

 

You've got drug "dependencies" now.  That wasn't your choice.  I mean if we all knew then what we know now........well, it sure would have been different for us, in many ways.

 

So, hope that's clearer, a bit.

 

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Thanks for the hijack space DMV.  And continued discussion. 

 

Edited April 12, 2019 by manymoretodays
squirrel brain! And emotional as well.

[DMV64]

3 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

dependencies

Yes thank you for reminding me of this. Look, AA Saved my life. I can probably never repay what has been given me so freely. Although I try my best to do service and to help the newcomers and all of the things that we do. I also know that right now and withdrawl I’ve not been able to do as much as I used to do as far as service goes or even getting the amount of meetings are used to get. Anyway I’m kind of rambling.

 I think I just need to be a little more conscious of who I am sharing with and how much and walked. And rely on the boards here for what belongs here. 

And try to stay out of the future. Thanks for your post. XO

[Rabe]

On 4/9/2019 at 9:51 PM, Rosetta said:

I think the brain could heal just fine given enough time after alcohol discontinuation IF psych drugs (as well as other toxins) were not introduced to the equation.  Maybe some are put on psych drugs after alcohol discontinuation because they start to experience mental difficulties caused by dysautonomia due alcohol CT?  

 

I think this is interesting Rosetta as I quit drinking and then was started on the Clonazepam some years later...makes me wonder about your theory.

I sure did not tolerate the alcohol for tackling the anxiety...was SO sick quite quickly as was my liver...did not like it. That makes me also wonder about the meds I was put on as I have heard benzo described as 'liquid alcohol'.  Oh well.....take care!!💜

[Rabe]

Hi DMV...just wanted you to know I am thinking about you and hoping things have settled a bit and that you and Zelda are doing great!  Love and hugs to you!💜

[manymoretodays]

21 hours ago, DMV64 said:

Yes thank you for reminding me of this. Look, AA Saved my life. I can probably never repay what has been given me so freely. Although I try my best to do service and to help the newcomers and all of the things that we do. I also know that right now and withdrawl I’ve not been able to do as much as I used to do as far as service goes or even getting the amount of meetings are used to get. Anyway I’m kind of rambling.

 I think I just need to be a little more conscious of who I am sharing with and how much and walked. And rely on the boards here for what belongs here. 

And try to stay out of the future. Thanks for your post. XO

 

Oh, thank you too DMV64,

I feel I have made a terrible faux pas, regarding furthering the discussion.  Take a look at tradition 10 and 11!  Yikes.  I guess I'm learning and very much a newbie in the program of AA.

I also haven't been up to taking a whole lot on in the way of AA service and sponsorship lately.  Just getting back.

And Rosetta, no problem........as you are someone not really affiliated with AA......again, free speech, and my hope is.....only that you understand a bit more as an outsider looking in, as to what AA is.  It's just not the catchall kind of group that I think you imagined.  And.......you did state you did not know much about it all anyway.

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

 

Edited April 13, 2019 by manymoretodays
none

[Rosetta]

It wasn't my intention to "bash" AA, and I am very sorry if it sounded that way.  Actually, I tried to make sure it didn't sound that way as it is obviously a very important part of DMVs life.   Pretty frustrating that that didn't work.

[manymoretodays]

It's fine.  To be honest, I accidentally hit the send on that last reply here.  New software.  I wasn't even signed in and was still trying to compose the reply.  And I'm still in it......a bit of cognitive impairment due to a lengthy D spell, or something.  Very technologically compromised and challenged!  And with my written and verbal word expression.

It may not have affected DMV the same way it did me.  HSP, you know.......at least at this phase of my post-drug(medication) recovery.

Carry on folks!  Best with alls' healing and recoveries.

Not having much luck with taking my break.  Much needed.  Will keep trying.

It always gets better!  I believe!

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Edited April 14, 2019 by manymoretodays

[DMV64]

I’m really too up-and-down to really know what’s affecting me. Yesterday was a very good day. Today kind of sucks. I’m just trying to take everything a day at a time

[Rabe]

I understand that DMV...and you have had a lot going on lately...lots of stress of various sorts which never helps.  Just so glad Zelda is back with you!  Going you feel better.  💜

[DMV64]

@JanCarol @manymoretodays @Rabe @Rosetta Friday is my sinus surgery. I’m nervous how it might effect my taper and just in general. 

[manymoretodays]

Hi DMV,

You are continuing to HOLD aren't you, since your last decrease on March 25th?  I think you should and then continue to HOLD, without further tapering, until you feel recovered from the sinus surgery completely.   And any additional drugs given.   Probably at least 6 weeks.   I'm hoping it's outpatient, that they do the procedure, and then observe you for some time after, before sending you home. 

 

I'll try to address the "in general" fears.  

 

If I were you.......in regards to the surgery itself,  I would certainly let whoever does the anesthesia for the procedure know of your complete medication "cocktail" before the procedure.  And then work with them, your medical providers BEFORE the procedure to eliminate any fears you might be having.  Ask them about any medications that you might be given pre and post op, including antibiotics.  Ask them, if there will be conflicts with any of your daily medications.......that sort of thing.  They may direct you to hold on some or all of your medications the day of.    Talk to THEM pre procedure!!!!   Call them on the phone before friday.  It's your right DMV.  Seriously.    Be an informed consumer of all your medical services.  Empower yourself. 

 

You are on a lot of medications right now.  All of your providers should be made aware of this.  As well as your pharmacist. 

 

You can use drugs.com too........I think you are familiar with that.  And you do know the dangers of fluroquinilone ABX now, don't you?  I don't know if this procedure requires ABX or not.  THEY should be able to tell you that.  Check any pain medications that you might be sent home with in the interactions checker at drugs.com as well.  And try and minimize the usage of them.  I imagine ice might be called for in the first 24 hours to prevent swelling, and hopefully you can use some ibuprofen as well to minimize inflammation in the tissues.

As I am not a ENT, nor anesthesiologist....... and so, that's the best advice I can give around that.

 

Use whatever non-drug coping skills you have honed as well.......to get you through the thoughts and feelings that you are having.

I hope that helps.

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

 

All my best for your upcoming surgery/procedure,

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

[Rosetta]

((DMV)). I would be worried, too.  That's natural.  I'm hoping that you feel a lot better after you get this problem addressed.  -Rosetta

[DMV64]

Hey MMT. 

 Thank you for all the useful information. One really good thing is that I am going to a hospital that is part of a network that has all of my medications computerized from my psychiatric team. So they know all of them already but I’m still going to call the number for the nursing staff preop just to make sure. And thanks for the reminder about the antibiotics I’m going to make sure they don’t give those to me because I will be required to take Antibiotics for a week after the surgery. I think they also give pain meds but I probably won’t take them. Definitely not anything narcotic. When I had shoulder surgery I took tramadol so maybe I’ll see about that. Thanks again for all the help!

[DMV64]

Post surgery. All is well. This is however really hard.

[Carmie]

I’m glad all is well post surgery DMV💚

[DMV64]

Thank you! They just took the stents out today. Lots of drainage! 

[Rosetta]

Thinking of you!!

[DMV64]

I’m trying to post from my computer but it keeps giving me an error message so here is my attempt from my phone.

[DMV64]

 OK well it looks like it worked out here. Thank you to everyone who is checked in on me. It means a lot. It’s hard to go through post surgical staff in with drawl definitely finding that out. I think the physical active having trouble breathing because of the sinus drainage and healing causes the feeling of anxiety which I already have enough of. Maybe just not teaching right now, having free time adding to it. I hope everyone is doing well if I can get on my computer later without an error message  maybe I’ll get Back on.!

[JanCarol]

I hope you're feeling better soon!  I can't imagine what it would be like to go through that - I know my Dad was really pleased with his surgery.  I hope it works as well for you.

SOmething to be thankful for - you got through the surgery without any rebound-y drug effects!  Hooray!

Thinking of you.

I hope you see the sun today!
 

[Rabe]

Hi DMV....so grateful that everything went ok!!!  And that things are draining...good thing!!  Thinking about you LOTS!  Do take really good care for awhile...these procedures take so much out of us.  I would think about not teaching or anything?  But maybe that would be of help in some way, IDK.  I just feel with all you have been through you will need all your energy to get well after the surgery and meds and all.  Take care of yoU!💜

[neroli]

Hello DMV64

 

Glad to hear that the surgery went well and hope you are finding you are recovering more and more each day.

 

Take care and give yourself time (I know you will but ya know it's a bit of a reminder that your body needs recuperation).

 

Best of wishes

 

xx Neroli 💜

[DMV64]

@rosetta @neroli @Rabe @manymoretodays Hey everyone. I’m checking in on my sinus surgery recovery. I don’t know why but all of a sudden I have a big resurgence of morning anxiety. I don’t know if it’s part of the healing process. I haven’t changed anything or done any dropping. But I’m waking up again with more intense anxiety  and daily depression then I have been having lately. I don’t know if anyone has any ideas but I’d love to hear them if you do

[Rabe]

On 4/27/2019 at 3:43 PM, Rabe said:

Hi DMV....so grateful that everything went ok!!!  And that things are draining...good thing!!  Thinking about you LOTS!  Do take really good care for awhile...these procedures take so much out of us.  I would think about not teaching or anything?  But maybe that would be of help in some way, IDK.  I just feel with all you have been through you will need all your energy to get well after the surgery and meds and all.  Take care of yoU!💜

Hi DMV, I had sent you the because I found that after my GI procedure which is nothing like the sinus, I found I felt pretty darn good and then within bout week or less I felt not good in many ways. More reactive, more anxious, tired, depressed etc...similar to WD but different.  Took me 2 months to feel some better and I think I am still always righting the ship cause there is always some stress, you know.  These things that would be minimal in other circumstances I find really knock me on y ear.  IDK.  Take good care!  Thank you for stopping by...grateful for you1  Love to Zelda and to you!  💜

[Rosetta]

My lay opinion is that the anesthesia is a problem for people in WD.  I hope it resolves quickly.  Big hugs!! -R

[DMV64]

I feel it is anesthesia fallout as well. My anxiety is worse. Hope it gets better. 

[DMV64]

 I wonder how long it takes to get out of your body? @JanCarol

[DMV64]

Sorry for the multiple posts. I am a bit all over the place. I’m just realizing, they put me on a steroid nasal rinse  for my swelling. I need to add it to my Netti pot once a day in the morning. I’ve only been doing this for a couple of days so I’m wondering if that’s what causing the increase in anxiety. It’s called mometasone