DMV64: reinstate Saphris?

[DMV64]

Something is interacting with something else and still causing weight gain. Even though I am currently tapering a "gainer" (saphris) I never had a problem with any med on my list and weight until cogentin was added. I know cogentin is not supposed to be a gainer but maybe there is an interaction or some effect. Any info is much appreciated.

[manymoretodays]

Hi DMV64,

I saw your concern on Kristine's thread regarding drug interactions.  Maybe it was more about drug side effects.  For that we usually recommend that you go to drugs.com.  Once there you select "interactions" and just plug on in any of the medications that you are on.  If you can, after doing that........copy and paste the results here in your journal/introduction.  It might be good to do the interactions yourself, even if having a bit of the cog fog.  It's worth a try.

 

Here's the link:

https://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.php

 

The interactions of your meds/drugs may not explain the weight gain but it may be eye opening for you.  After checking interactions you might just go back on the site and singularly check out the Cogentin to see if it has a side effect of weight gain listed.  Just go to the menu at the top there, and to Drugs A-Z.

 

I apologize if you have already checked interactions.......I'll give a go to reading your introduction/journal.

 

It's always good, I think.......to give it a try on your own as far as seeking more information specific to you and your meds/drugs.  If you have trouble though.......I'd be happy to help as well.

 

Nice to meet you.

 

Love, peace, healing/inrecovery, and growth,

manymoretodays

Edited February 20, 2018 by manymoretodays

[DMV64]

Thank you Manymoretodays.  I did the drug interaction link a while ago, but I can look at it again. I suppose it’s good to do it every once in a while. It is pasted somewhere in My thread. 

[DMV64]

On 2/7/2018 at 9:47 PM, JanCarol said:

That's what I'm looking for - to space the klonopin out more widely.

JanCarol...

I know you had written not to split the Geoden now but my instinct on morning panic is twofold:

1. I think I am suffering the short half like of Geoden (more than klonopin). I take geoden at 11am and by morning I think it is dropping out. 

2. Pretty sure the Vyvanse is aggravating anxiety symptoms in the morning but afraid to make any changes.

 

Will wait to hear your thoughts, or anyone who might be willing to comment. Sometimes I don't think anyone sees my thread...

-D

[AliG]

Hi DMV ~ we all see your thread but JanCarol has been the one you have mainly connected with, over time. I for one, don't want to add any conflicting advice. There is none, really ~ as JC is great !     

[DMV64]

Thanks AliG. I feel kind of alone here sometimes. Thanks for responding. Means a lot to me. Especially in the morning when I struggle. 

[JanCarol]

Hey D - 

 

Your signature is still - vague.

What date did you updose?  This is vitally important for tracking your recovery!

 

You are still in the first week of updose, I remember that much.

 

It sounds like you are headed the right direction.
 

There is a principle we use when in distress: KISSS, which to us is Keep It Stable, Simple, and Slow.

Your symptoms are not the enemy right now, changes are.  Stillness is what you want to cultivate here.  

I feel your frustration and how you just want to DO SOMETHING.

Here are two good options:

 

1.  Keep moving the 2nd Klonopin dose later in the day, move it by just an hour each time until they are 12 hours apart.

2.  Updose the Saphris to 1.3 (no more than 1.5).  But again - sneaky, do it 0.1 mg at a time at this point.

I believe you are suffering because the doctor tapered you too fast.  I'm sorry that happened to you!  But it takes time to get over a change like that.

 

Think at least 3 weeks before you will normalise.  That you normalised any at all after your updose is a really good sign!  

But this is a wave, and the best thing you can do is wait, hold, and cultivate calm and curiosity.

Edited February 20, 2018 by JanCarol

[DMV64]

Hi JanCarol.  I will fix my signature. It is really hard to hold because the mornings are so so hard. And then fairly magically about two hours after I take my Geoden dose I am better and by evening I am “normal“. I just am getting so exhausted waking up with the morning terror and dread. 

[JanCarol]

On 19/02/2018 at 11:56 PM, DMV64 said:

I think my Vyvanse is bringing symptoms in the morning. I don't know what to do about it, because I don't want to make changes that will make me worse off. Ideas? 

 

Hey D - I've recently seen some articles about the interactions between amphetamines and antidepressants, and Vyvanse - with it's time release formula - was mentioned in the article.

 

You really should avoid making changes for at least 3 weeks.  This is an adjustment time for your neurotransmitters, and while it's not "all better" it's often "as good as it will get" without waiting a year or two.  A month is even better.

Vyvanse is a good idea.  I think we wanted to start on that one, except that you were so sedated by your other drugs, we let it be.

 

But you will have to STOP all other tapers while you taper the Vyvanse.

 

12 hours ago, DMV64 said:

Something is interacting with something else and still causing weight gain. Even though I am currently tapering a "gainer" (saphris) I never had a problem with any med on my list and weight until cogentin was added. I know cogentin is not supposed to be a gainer but maybe there is an interaction or some effect. Any info is much appreciated.

 

Quite simply, this is not the time to worry about your weight.  It will come, in time, but right now it just puts another pressure on you, in a fairly impossible situation.  Both Geodon and Saphris are guilty of metabolic disorder. Cogentin to a lesser extent.  You have a synergy between 3 drugs here.  When we get your drug load down, and your symptoms stable, then is the time to look at weight gain.

 

Here's the things, D - 

 

In 3 weeks time you may feel totally differently.

What I'm getting as I "ride" your thread, is that there are a lot of ups and downs (and a bit of a disaster caused by a doctor's taper) - and if you intervene for all of them, you will only produce more ups and downs.  Think of it like a basketball.  If you stop hitting it, it will stop bouncing.   Changes are like hitting the basketball.

If each time you hit another wave, another rough spot, you make a change, an adjustment to plan - then we never get enough information.  Was the Geodon taper a good thing or a bad one?  We don't know, you changed from that.  Was tapering Saphris a good idea?  We don't know because the doctor's taper was too fast, and we won't know if you switch to a Vyvanse taper.

There is no magic answer that is always right.  Getting off these drugs is going to be hard, and you will be fighting for your life in many ways.  You will be re-identifying yourself, trying to develop new ways of coping  with stress and situations, and maybe reevaluating your relationships.  You may be revisiting old traumas in order to process them, or set yourself free from the traps - or stop laying the traps.  There's a lot to do that doesn't involve drugs at all.

 

Your drugs are a particularly awful combination.  They are causing awful symptoms.  We all want you to get free of them.  But it takes a steady hand to steer, and a steady eye to watch the distant horizon.  Tacking and changing course might hinder your goal

I guess the next thing I would consider is - learn to be curious, find ways of dealing with distress.  Dance it out.  Get silly with it, make fun of it.  Get curious about it and ask it questions - "what do you want?"  I find if I keep asking, eventually I get some kind of answer.  It may not be an answer I understand - but the act of asking - seems to ease the pressure of the symptoms once the dialogue gets started.

Because there's going to be distress.  Coming off this cocktail will not be a cake walk.  I wish it would be.  All we can do is try to keep it as smooth as possible.

[DMV64]

3 minutes ago, JanCarol said:

But you will have to STOP all other tapers while you taper the Vyvanse.

Ok, reading all you wrote...trying to process. So should I do this? Vyvanse? Or is what you are saying is wait. I think that is what you are saying.

I am trying to hold steady but it is so hard. Sometimes I just want to give up. The mornings are tearful. I hold onto my coping strategies and my knowledge that I feel better in the evening. 

But I am limited, and running a yoga studio limited is hard.

So to summarize: Wait three weeks. Yes?

My drugs are AWFUL. Even though they don't contain an SSRI. Just awful. 

Curiosity is easier later in the day. I do feel like I am fighting for my life.

Thank you for your help. <3

 

[JanCarol]

1 hour ago, DMV64 said:

know you had written not to split the Geoden now but my instinct on morning panic is twofold:

1. I think I am suffering the short half like of Geoden (more than klonopin). I take geoden at 11am and by morning I think it is dropping out. 

2. Pretty sure the Vyvanse is aggravating anxiety symptoms in the morning but afraid to make any changes.

 

I hear you D.

 

But I can't tell if this is from your recent taper shaking things up or not.

 

And I won't be able to tell for at least 3 weeks to a month.

It may be longer, because that was a precipitous drop of the Saphris.  Like 3 months.  I'd like to see you hold for 3 months after that - but I understand if you are crawling through your skin.

I hope you can hold, I know it's hard, but I really have no suggestions other than what I've written above.

 

I do think that switching the taper to Vyvanse will help with anxiety - but I'll be honest - then I think other symptoms will come to the fore.  This is bound to be an intense journey!

We can't chase all your symptoms away, we can only hope to gradually, gently reduce them over time.

So your RIGHT NOW options are:

 

1.  Move your klonopin

2.  Updose your Saphris

 

After at least a month, then consider another taper.  But wait until you see how you feel then.

[DMV64]

1 minute ago, JanCarol said:

Move your klonopin

2.  Updose your Saphris

Ok. I need to think about this and talk to my husband who is bearing with me through this. I will check back in here in a bit, I have to drive daughter somewhere now.

 

I would be very happy to just have symptoms lessen. Very happy.

[DMV64]

What is the general feeling about hospitalization to come off meds? My doc spoke with me about it briefly. I have to admit I  did not ask many questions because I was in a brain fog. Ugh. I can't really understand how in 9 days (or maybe more) the medical community can safely get a person off these meds. Anyone have experience?

-D

[manymoretodays]

Hi DMV64,

 

My own and the general feeling of us at survivingantidepressants is.........that hospitalization to come off psychotropic medication/drugs........usually results in further medication/drugs.  It appears you may have already gone that route of further medication with your present Doctor/prescriber.  I am only guessing here but I think that your present psychiatrist has presently put down his prescription pad.  Hallelujah I say. 

We feel the same about hospitalization as we do about "rapid detox centers" or even long term expensive recovery "detox" centers.

 

2 hours ago, DMV64 said:

I can't really understand how in 9 days (or maybe more) the medical community can safely get a person off these meds. Anyone have experience?

 

My personal experience was........that.........they had no understanding of W/D.  Zero.  None.  Often they will take you off the medication that you/they feel is most bothersome......only to replace it with another.  Meanwhile any symptoms that you may have are all attributed to your "mental illness".  Or they may keep you for some further treatments.......ECT or such. 

 

Did you consider the options that JanCarol suggested above?  I did find your drug interactions on the first page of your journal/introduction as well.  What are you presently on?  Are you on Saphris, Geodon, Klonopin, and Vyvanse?  And you still have good faith in this prescribing doctor?   How are you managing with your dosing in general right now?

 

Can you do a bit of a mini-recovery retreat right at home?  My guess is that you are being pressured to do way more than you are able to at this point.

 

Love, peace, healing/inrecovery, and growth,

manymoretodays

 

 

[DMV64]

3 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

present psychiatrist

Hi MMT!

Thanks for coming by! Yes, my current psych (a new one) has put down the pad. I specifically chose this team because they deal with more difficult cases. I told them right off I am looking to come OFF! I do still have faith in the Resident more than the Professor, well respected DOC. Because he thought 10% a week was a good place to start and I now know that MAYBE some of us could work to that if things are going well but not in a straight off, straight line taper.

Presently on Saphris, Geodon, Klonopin, and Vyvanse. Managing dosing ok. Water titrate for Geoden. Milligram scale for Saphris, although I am not sure what will happen as I get smaller. I am currently at 1.2mg. Not sure if this Gemini-20 scale will accurately measure below 1 mg. It doesn't seem like it from the current display. 

Because I teach and run a studio I am doing way more than I can do, thank you for saying this. It is a nice acknowledgement. I keep feeling defective because "normal" people can just keep going.

I am considering my options but currently holding everything. Just ending week one after updosing from the too fast taper crash, trying to stabilize. Also trying to do less, when possible. Rest.

All your thoughts appreciated. I don't think the hospital is for me unless they put me in a coma for 6 months. Ha. Kind of true.

-D

[Kristine]

8 hours ago, DMV64 said:

 

So...I woke up with a little less anxiety than yesterday so that's good. 

My doc spoke with me about hospitalization to come off meds. I have to admit I  did not ask many questions because I was in a brain fog. Ugh. I can't really understand how in 9 days (or maybe more) the medical community can safely get a person off these meds.

-D

Hey DM,  Thank you for your words of encouragement on my thread. I have moved the above quote from my thread so you have a record.   Im so pleased to hear your anxiety has eased a little today. It makes the day a little easier.  Your doc sounds supportive with you getting off the medication which is wonderful.  In October 2015 I was in hospital (psyc) and I wanted to come off citalopram, my psychiatrist was supportive of this.  However, she took me off over just one week.  From my experience, I was not surprisingly very distressed when citalopram was removed.  It was not a slow taper. My psychiatrist then prescribed diazepam 15mg, Seroquel XR 25-50mg (for insomnia) and alprazolam (as required).  Even though this eased my anxiety in the short term....I was left with even more drugs to remove and my nervous system was triggered and thrown into further disarray.

 

I have to agree with all of MMTs words above.  The facility's, unfortunatly, do not exsist for people like us, to wd from these prescribed psychotropic medications.  The doctors are ignorant and issues such as PAWS and wd syndrome from antidepressants are not topics which are openly discussed within psychiatry.  The psychiatrists who challenge the status quo, such as Dr Joanna Moncrieff are ostracised from their professional group.  It is my understanding that Joanna Moncrieff has been denied presenting her research at any major psychiatric symposium. This is the only medical field where evidence based criticism of current practice is shunned, gagged and ignored by the very people who practice in the field. Until this changes the majority of psychiatrists will continue along the same path. 

 

5 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

Can you do a bit of a mini-recovery retreat right at home?  My guess is that you are being pressured to do way more than you are able to at this point.

I think this is the best advice.  I have converted my bedroom into a retreat of sorts. It is my quiet and comfortable place.  I try to surround myself with comforting and healing resources...such as using essential oils and listening to podcasts...just to name a few!

Much Love and Hugs. K xo

 

 

[DMV64]

14 hours ago, Kristine said:

 It is my understanding that Joanna Moncrieff has been denied presenting

Wow! this is unbelievable, but then again, believable. There is so much disinformation out there. Its hard to really even talk to anyone about all this because they just look at me like I am nuts or like I will be better in a week.

I the idea of going on a home retreat. I don't think the hospital is for me. I might try an Intensive Outpatient Support Group, not sure if that will help me feel more centered or not. I guess it is worth a shot. Part of the problem is I have a lot of time alone since I work off hours teaching yoga and doing Doula work. So parts of the day I spend alone are not always good for me. Too much in my head. I try to distract with reading (I can only do a bit) and knitting. Maybe try podcasts.

How are you today?

-D

[manymoretodays]

Hi DMV,

I did find your drug interactions posted.  If you go back to page one here in your journal/intro and go up from the bottom of the page.........you'll see it fairly quickly.  What did you do with the Gabapentin?  That's the only one on there that you are not presently on.  I'm not seeing it recently in your signature and you didn't mention it in your last post.

If you want you could once again do the interactions with the cogentin now added and no gabapentin.

The link I gave you above should take you to a blank interactions page.  So you just have to plug your current medications in.  And/or you can just go there.....drugs.com......and look up your cogentin for side effects and further information.

 

I think it can be hard to get centered/feel centered and have it be lasting while you are on so many medications........makes it difficult, eh?  So maybe adding to your Yoga practice with other meditative or relaxation tools might be helpful from here on out.  Look around at symptoms and self care.  I used to find really helpful stuff as well in other members threads sometimes.  Simple stuff sometimes is good.

 

I'm not certain on the Gemini-20 scale and measuring below 1 mg. of pill weight either.  I'll see what I can find out scoping around the site.  In any case you are just holding for now.....on the Saphris.  Good to plan.  Also good to stay and hold for a bit as well.

 

Yes, possibly the social of an intensive IOP will help.........and the work involved with it........as far as getting out of your head so to speak.  It may be a bit too much though......as far as more traditional/biomedical based.  Worth checking out though.  You never know until you try and investigate.  A lot of varying experiences and opinions with therapy among us.  

 

So......is Vyvanse or a stimulant a long running medication for you......I mean have you been on something for ADHD for a very long time?  Is that a medication that you expect to continue?

 

Anyway it's morning.......I think you said that's your difficult time.  No need to answer all my probes right off.  

 

Love, peace, healing/inrecovery, and growth,

mmt 

 

 

[DMV64]

13 minutes ago, manymoretodays said:

Gabapentin? 

Hi MMT,

Yes it is morning and I am in tears because I feel so much morning dread/anxiety. It is good to get your message. Gabepentin is not on my list because I take it for bladder pain, so I am not (right now) planning on reducing. Hopefully later I will get it down from 300 to 100 or something like that.

As I told JanCarol, sometimes I feel like the worst case ever. I don't even know how I wound up on so much crap. The Vyvanse was added by a doc (maybe 3 years ago?) who took me off Wellbutrin which was giving me a rash. She felt my symptoms were not depression but more ADHD. Just like this, I wound up on Saphris for the first time (back in Brooklyn in 2011) by a doc who was trying to treat my depression (i can't tolerate SSRI) with anti-psychotics. 

It's hard to read your words about being centered on all this medication. I hate that I am on it. Everyday I hate it.

Today I have to teach two classes. Everyday it is like a battle to just function but I feel better when I have something to do and get out of my head.

I appreciate any help with scale!

<3

-D

 

[DMV64]

 I have to say I’m really feeling like I need to take the 20% Geoden I have been discarding and add it back in and take it at night to try to make the mornings more stable for me. Right now this is completely on manageable, and I do need to have some level of functionality. Anyway that is what I am thinking. I’m pretty sure I’m having short half-life dropped out in the morning from that drug.

[DMV64]

On 2/22/2018 at 8:34 AM, manymoretodays said:

inrecovery

I am struggling today to feel like I am getting anywhere. I have to remember I am down to 1.2 from 5 mg in August. Not sure if I am going to need to updose. I have been trying to hold but mornings are almost unbearable with the terror. Hope to hear from you!

[manymoretodays]

Hi DMV,

It's okay for today to feel like you are not getting anywhere.  Just today......or just for today, or even the next 12 hours..........well, let me quote an an author of unknown origin:

 

Just for today I will try to live through this day only, and not tackle my whole life problem at once(and we might include the medication/drug snafu here, that so many of us find ourselves in).  I can do something for twelve hours that would appall me if I felt that I had to keep it up for a lifetime.

 

You can also just type "Just for Today" in your search engine and voila.......you will get the whole thing.

 

.......anyway, I am going to take the liberty of getting to the soulful part, and skip some of the poem/prose......

 

Just for today I will exercise my soul in three ways:  I will do somebody a good turn, and not get found out;  if anybody knows of it, it will not count;  I will do at least two things I don't want to do---just for exercise.  I will not show anyone that my feelings are hurt, they may be hurt, but today, I will not show it.

 

Just for today I will be agreeable.  I will look as good as I can, dress becomingly, talk low, act courteously, criticize not one bit, not find fault with anything, and not try to improve or regulate anybody except myself.

 

Just for today I will have a program.  I may not follow it exactly, but I will have it.  I will save myself from two pests:  hurry and indecision.

 

Just for today I will have a quiet half-hour by myself, and relax.  During this half-hour, sometime, I will try to get a better perspective on my life.

 

Just for today I will be unafraid, I will enjoy that which is beautiful, and will believe that as I give to the world, so the world will give to me.

 

So anyway......do the best that you can.  And I think that one of those things that you could try and do right now is to get some of the daily journaling going.  I'll include the link to that with the preferred format given there at the bottom of the post and string.  Review some of the previous postings as well at your best time of day.  I think we should include your gabapentin in your signature as well.  Even if you have no tapering plans for this.  And more on the Gemini scale to come........ 

 

Are you down to 18mg. of Geodon now?  Do your best with your signature and the 12 lines permitted to get in both the gabapentin, as well as the Geodon update/changes.  Just the most pertinent information.

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/1008-before-you-begin-tapering-what-you-need-to-know/

 

Love, peace, healing/inrecovery, and growth,

mmt

 

Edited February 24, 2018 by manymoretodays
clarity

[manymoretodays]

On 2/22/2018 at 6:55 AM, DMV64 said:

Hi MMT,

Yes it is morning and I am in tears because I feel so much morning dread/anxiety. It is good to get your message. Gabepentin is not on my list because I take it for bladder pain, so I am not (right now) planning on reducing. Hopefully later I will get it down from 300 to 100 or something like that.

As I told JanCarol, sometimes I feel like the worst case ever. I don't even know how I wound up on so much crap. The Vyvanse was added by a doc (maybe 3 years ago?) who took me off Wellbutrin which was giving me a rash. She felt my symptoms were not depression but more ADHD. Just like this, I wound up on Saphris for the first time (back in Brooklyn in 2011) by a doc who was trying to treat my depression (i can't tolerate SSRI) with anti-psychotics. 

It's hard to read your words about being centered on all this medication. I hate that I am on it. Everyday I hate it.

Today I have to teach two classes. Everyday it is like a battle to just function but I feel better when I have something to do and get out of my head.

I appreciate any help with scale!

<3

-D

 

 

We all do DMV, seriously......... I felt like the biggest idiot out there.  And then........trying to explain our new understanding to JoeQPublic or even our mother's or sister's or best friend even........doesn't make me feel like the biggest idiot, but sometimes like the most poorly understood human around.  Then......it passes........it always does.  "I am right where I am supposed to be" helps me usually.  Then also "Work hard,  be honest, and do no harm".  Hugs from me to you and back again.  I'll go find a tree to hug......too.

Edited February 24, 2018 by manymoretodays

[manymoretodays]

And......not to further overwhelm........sure hoping that you can check in later in the day when it might be easier for you.  Here's the link to the Gemini scale(s).  There's a recent update from brassmonkey there as well!   I'm hoping it's helpful with further changes to your medications/drugs.  If not we might be able to find an alternate solution?

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/1596-using-a-digital-scale-to-measure-doses/?page=7

 

[DMV64]

16 minutes ago, manymoretodays said:

check in later in the day

Thank you! Will look at this in a little while. I am off to look at a possible pet!

[DMV64]

27 minutes ago, manymoretodays said:

most poorly understood human around

Oh my god! Yes. I am not alone!

[DMV64]

1 hour ago, manymoretodays said:

Just for today

I am in recovery and JUST FOR TODAY comes right out of 12 step! I can't believe you posted this. : )

I will try to work on my signature later and the interactions.

[manymoretodays]

Awesome on the pet looking.  I'm tree hugging.  And in my first reply today.......toward the bottom, the link........to journaling format..........important, helpful........for both you and your moderation team.

 

 

[DMV64]

Ok. I will look at the journal. I went to meet a kitty. But I am allergic. Not sure if it could work. 

[DMV64]

I am looking for that journal link...

[DMV64]

3 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

I'm hoping it's helpful

I checked over there and posted. I just don't know that scale is at its capacity if my low dose 1.2 mg goes into single digits. Because I will have no way of measuring accurate small enough cuts.

[DMV64]

3 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

I'm hoping it's helpful

Could be my brain but I cannot find the link to journal. Will see if I can just find it. Gabepentin is in my signature, btw.

[manymoretodays]

The symptom/drug journal format is at the bottom of my " Just for today" post.   The link to it.  Last post in that linked string has our suggested (and useful format) Sorry about that on the interactions....it was missing the Omprazole (? Spelling) and Cogentin only.  Just go back one page.  It is above where I posted a copy of your interactions from September.  ........and then your signature can be updated from your profile -go to accounts..... I am away from my desktop at present.

Edited February 25, 2018 by manymoretodays
Additional comment

[DMV64]

7 minutes ago, manymoretodays said:

Just for today" post.

When I go there I just get a thread about tapering?

[manymoretodays]

Go to the bottom....10th post there....by Alto.  Or go to our Home page------Support------- Read this first.  You can't comment there but to see the suggested format.  Then pen to paper....then post for moderators/administration as well here on your intro page....once you have a day or so recorded.  

Edited February 25, 2018 by manymoretodays

[DMV64]

Ok found it. Yes. I was doing that for awhile then because my brain is inconsistent I forgot about it. Right now getting weird chemical feeling so going to try to rest a little bit.