Musk: is this withdrawal?

[musk]

Hi. I'm really lost and I dont know what to do.

 

I reduced the dose of diazepam on February 25. After 14 days, I enjoyed some nights (11, 13 and 15 March) with sleep of a different character, deeper, different, although with short interruptions. After theese night the next day has been a window. This is a good sign, right?

 

But it does not match that my state is due to a too fast reduction.

 

As recomended, I updosed 2 days ago to the dose before February 25. I made a liquid form with whole milk: 5 mg diluted in 5 ml, and from there with a syringe take the dose. It's well done?.

 

But...... the effect has been horrible, very bad nights of very strange sleep, interrupted every 15 or 20 minutes maximum, alternated with akathisia, horrible.

 

Now I do not know why, I'm in a real mess and I do not know what to expect nor what to do. I have neither to consult nor much support. It seems that diazepam is now a problem. I think this because two weeks after the cut I had days and some nights clearly better, as I say.

 

But I do not know how to act. And the worst is that I think nobody can know. I make the mistake when I started taking diazepam at the end of December. I do not want to make a mistake again.

 

Please help.

[Shep]

Hi, Musk.

 

You may be reacting to the liquid. We recommend a gradual crossover from tablets to liquid so that your system can get used to the liquid slowly. 

 

14 minutes ago, musk said:

5 mg diluted in 5 ml, and from there with a syringe take the dose.

 

5 ml of milk is a very small amount of liquid to do a liquid titration, especially since you are adding in two of the 2.5 mg pills (I'm confused about why you are doing that when your dose is under 2.5 mg). 

 

How much of the 5 ml solution are you taking? 

[musk]

 

You may be reacting to the liquid

 

but this is not logical: take the pill with a little milk, or take the pill diluted in milk at the time, is the same, or almost.

 

I also have 5 mg pills, and I used those to dilute. And I have reserved those of 2.5 mg to break into pieces.

 

Being the dose to take 1 mg, I take 1 ml, since the proportion is 1:1 (a tablet of 5 mg in 5 ml of milk). Why is it so little liquid?

[musk]

1 hour ago, musk said:

 

I reduced the dose of diazepam on February 25. After 14 days, I enjoyed some nights (11, 13 and 15 March) with sleep of a different character, deeper, different, although with short interruptions. After theese night the next day has been a window. This is a good sign, right?

 

But it does not match that my state is due to a too fast reduction

 

I would appreciate moderators opinion on this fact, for me those good nights have meant a lot, because it was a calm and deep sleep, very different.

[Shep]

42 minutes ago, musk said:

but this is not logical: take the pill with a little milk, or take the pill diluted in milk at the time, is the same, or almost.

 

No, a lot of this is not logical. You are right about that. Perhaps the liquid is absorbed faster, I'm not sure. But we have found that some people do not tolerate switching directly from tablet to liquid and recommend taking 75% by tablet and 25% by liquid and increasing the liquid by 25% increments over a number of days until you are at 100% liquid. 

 

42 minutes ago, musk said:

Being the dose to take 1 mg, I take 1 ml, since the proportion is 1:1 (a tablet of 5 mg in 5 ml of milk). Why is it so little liquid?

 

You need enough of the liquid to make the solution as evenly distributed as possible. Valium has very little solubility in water, but it is listed as lipid-soluble (soluble in milk), but you need enough milk to ensure it is dissolving. And you'll find that when you start making your reductions, it's easier with more of the liquid to work with especially if you decide to micro-taper (which I would recommend).  Some people taper Valium with at 50 ml liquid and some use even more. 50 ml will give you a 1:10 ratio. To take a 1 mg dose, you would take 10 ml.

 

There are some videos on YouTube that may help. You may also find some Spanish. It would be worth exploring on YouTube.

 

Liquid Titration of Benzodiazepines video (10 minutes)

 

1 hour ago, musk said:

I reduced the dose of diazepam on February 25. After 14 days, I enjoyed some nights (11, 13 and 15 March) with sleep of a different character, deeper, different, although with short interruptions. After theese night the next day has been a window. This is a good sign, right?

 

But it does not match that my state is due to a too fast reduction

 

 

11 minutes ago, musk said:

I would appreciate moderators opinion on this fact, for me those good nights have meant a lot, because it was a calm and deep sleep, very different.

 

Yes, you had some windows back in February. But on March 13, you posted that you were desperate and suicidal. That was the reason for the updose. 

 

This is a very non-linear process where you will have good days and bad days. Please see:

 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

Edited March 18, 2018 by Shep

[Shep]

Also, Musk, if you haven't already read through this, please do so.

 

Stabilizing - what does that mean?

 

Please note it can take 4 days for your nervous system to register a change and then several weeks to fully stabilize, especially since you are also dealing with an antidepressant withdrawal from several months ago. 

 

Try to do as much self care as possible. You may find some ideas here:

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

[Rosetta]

Thinking of you, Musk.  I'm sorry that you are struggling.  The non- linear nature of this syndrome is very hard to handle.  The window you had means your brain has the capacity to recover.  Always remember that window!! - R

[Rosetta]

How are you doing?  I'm headed to bed, but I'll check on you tomorrow. - Rosetta

[musk]

Thank you, Rosseta. It has been a horrible day. I've even thought about how to kill myself, it's been very scary. I have been agitated (it will be akatisia) until the evening.

 

Then I calmed down, I had dinner with my family and I went to bed. I have slept at 21:30 but I have woken up many times, until 5:00.

 

I hope to have a better day today. Not going to work gives me a lot of sadness and I'm not sure if it was a good decision.

 

I am very sad, it is a kind of mourning for my lost life and health. and not having the security of being able to recover it. This journey is about taking care of yourself and waiting, without being sure if you will be cured or when. It is very difficult for my basic personality type. but it means that I will have to change that personality. I often fall in a victim-role giving up all my responsibility.

 

At the request of my relatives I have disconnected from the internet now deadline.  Now I can look only at the email.

 

My fearful attitude does not help me. I want trust that my body will be able to do this and there will be a life for me afterwards. But I do not have the most adequate attitude to face this journey. In this I envy you, Rosetta.

 

However, that this is my month 7 and that I have seen some small windows, should make me hope for the best.

 

My history of anxiety and somatization began with the indiscriminate use of internet, believing and conditioning me with the worst stories.That's how I got the medications. And that is not good for me now.

 

I still think sometimes that I have fallen ill forever. and I believe that those who heal, do it because they always believed in it? this is so? Even if you do not believe it, do you cure?

[Rosetta]

Yes, even if you don't believe that you will heal you will.  Why?  Because the body does not give up.  The brain does not stop trying to find homeostasis.  Your body will heal you.  It can, and it will as long as you don't interfere with the process.  That is the key.

 

You said that you envy me.  That's natural, but you would not if you had seen the misery I was in at month 7.  You would not have had any desire to inhabit my existence then.  

 

I was in month 9 when I joined SA.  No one here saw the agony I endured before that time.  It was horrendous.  I thought of my child in order to hold on.  I didn't believe that I would heal.  I was very, very doubtful.  I couldn't think straight.  I read on this site without joining, and I saw messages of hope.  I did not believe I would be a survivor  I simply wanted to believe.  I wanted to believe that my child would have her mother, would not lose her mother, and would not be the child of a suicide.  That's how I got through with the help of my husband, of course.  I made it through to the point that I saw improvement in my condition.  Then, I started to believe.  Until then I was simply letting time pass -- giving my brain a chance to heal and change in the ways the SA moderators claimed it would.  I had nothing to lose by waiting and everything to gain.  Ending my life would have destroyed all chance.  I could not do that to my child or my husband.  It was in utter agony, Hell, unbelievable misery, but I am very glad that I chose to endure it.  You will be, too.

 

What you have to do, Musk, is to look at your kids and say to yourself: I will hold on for them until I get to the place where hope exists as a belief in my mind.  Until then, I will not abandon my chance of getting there.  I am 100% convinced that you will heal, Musk.  100%.  I have no doubt because I am healing.  I do not feel good most of the time.  I have bad days, but I am once again capable of doing the minimum to be a mother and that is enough right now.  I get better every 2-4 weeks with setbacks in between.  I am no longer afraid of going back to the place you are now.  Let me tell you why:

 

In the beginning, I saw the advice the Mods gave other people here, and I followed the advice of the Mods blindly.  I did not take another AD or try a supplement not recommended by SA.  It worked for me.  I never stopped trying to figure out if what the Mods said was true, but I followed their advice until I could determine whether I believed in that advice.

 

At one point I read on SA that exercise that is more strenuous than walking might cause symptoms to become worse.  This is because exercise increases cortisol.  For me cortisol is very, very harmful.  I stopped jogging and did nothing for a while.  It took a few weeks, but I got better.  Then, I started walking.  Walking helps a lot.  You may have stopped walking because you gave up your job.  Try to find a way to start again, but I don't recommend vigorous exercise if you have Akathisia.

 

I read through threads to try to find proof that the Mods were right about letting the CNS heal without trying new drugs.  It was a torturous process because I saw a lot of suffering and that terrified me, but eventually I saw that I was improving just as promised.  I then tried to figure out why some people felt worse or became very sick again.  This is what I learned: You will heal if you do not cause your CNS (central nervous system) any further upset with new drugs.  "New drugs" includes adrenaline based numbing agents at the dentist, dangerous antibiotics and supplements (other than Omega 3 and magnesium.). You have to avoid putting anything into your body that is likely to affect your brain except for the Diazapam that your body needs to stabilize.  

 

I have read through threads to try to find out why people became inexplicably sick again, and I found 4 problems: 1. adrenaline based numbing agents at the dentist 2. dangerous antibiotics 3. supplements including marijuana and 5HTP. 4. new drugs such as ADs or new benzos or Valium or narcotics.  Narcotics for pain relief will hurt you -- they affect the brain, not just the body.  It's how they work -- by affecting the brain.  You have to avoid elective surgery, too.  Many people have procedures done to find out why they are having symptoms.  They may have colonoscopies or other exploratory procedures.  The procedure itself isn't the problem.  It's the drugs given to the person before or during that re-injure the CNS.  It's also very important that you do not take extra Diazapam.  That can hurt you, too.  Ask for advice here on SA before you take anything or have any procedure.  These Moderators have seen it all.  They have seen people accidentally re-injure their CNS.  (Some people do not have negative effects from certain drugs or supplements, but no one knows why.  Better safe than sorry is my opinion.)

 

There are others here who joined earlier in their journeys, but I recommend that you avoid reading about other people's struggles. Your journey will be different, and there is no good to come from reading about the pain of others.  The neuro-emotions will cause you to practically - as a practical matter -- live those stories as if they were your own.  It will add to your pain.  I know that it's hard to stop looking for answers on the Internet, but unfortunately, at this point in time, there is very little that is uplifting on the net about ADWD.  Beyond meds.com is probably the best source of the most positive information as long as you don't take any supplements recommended there.  The success stories here are good for when you are healed enough to handle the information in them that is negative.  Right now, I suspect that you can't.

 

I hope you can believe me that you will heal.  You have had small windows.  That can be the beginning of hope if you let it.

 

It's very, very slow and it's painful.  It's emotionally painful, too.  It's one of the most cruel experiences I could have ever thought possible, but it will be over one day and until then it will start to get better.  You will see the hope and the improvements if you wait for them.  Some days, I simply tell myself: "the morning is bad, but it will be better later today."  You can do that, too.  You are having relief in the evenings.  Hold on to that idea and the hope it can give you.

 

I'm so sorry this  has happened to you -- to any of us.  Take it day by day and note any improvements in a journal.  It very important to keep track so that you can look back and see the slow improvements.  That's where your first glimmers of hope lie.  

 

I would give give you a big hug if I could.  Hold on, Musk.  If I can do it so can you.

 

Peace, Rosetta

 

 

12 hours ago, musk said:

Then I calmed down, I had dinner with my family and I went to bed. I have slept at 21:30 but I have woken up many times, until 5:00 . . . 

 

In this I envy you, Rosetta. . . 

 

However, that this is my month 7 and that I have seen some small windows, should make me hope for the best.

 

[musk]

Thank you Rosetta, for your reassuring words.

 

You mentioned the antibiotics and I remembered that they gave me amoxilicine when I suffered appendicitis, at 2 weeks since the last sertraline pill. It is surely what hurt me.

 

I do not see any improvement, only worsening. I think I will be permanently wrong. And I'm not willing to live like that. I'm not even willing to do it for my children.

 

But I'm very scared, and I can not believe that I will be cured. I'm having a hard time I have continuous desires to take my life. I want my normal life back. I only cry and cry. my windows are getting shorter and shorter. I am sinking.

[Rosetta]

Are you with someone at all times?  You are never alone, correct?  How old are your children?

[musk]

No, I am not alone.

 

Besides I am extremely fearful and cowardly, as if to hurt me. 

 

My children are 10, 7 and 3 years old. My husband takes care of them, mostly.

 

My psychologist has advised me a retirement home where they do therapy, care, soft exercise, relaxation, it is a center in a mountain village, naturist style, supervised by doctors and nurses, without medication of course. I do not know what I will do.

[musk]

I give up.

 

I give up. I can not anymore. Anxiety and agitation so great and continuous, that I can not stand one more day. All my family including my husband see as the only option to put me in the hands of hospital and medication. I, now, see that I have two options: either I die, or I submit. I let them do what they want with me. I submit. I can not anymore. Prolonged withdrawal, is not for me. I'm too weak psychologically. Possibly positive people confident with good beliefs can. I do not.

 

Yesterday a general doctor told me one thing that is true: that if I continue like this without medication, I will ruin my future health, that I will have sequels (autoimmunity ...), and also destroy family life and the emotional health of my children .

 

I have lost all hope. I do not care about anything, nor my children. It gives me a lot of sadness and shame this thought.

[musk]

On 3/19/2018 at 8:20 PM, Rosetta said:

You are having relief in the evenings.

Yes, this is true.

[musk]

I remembered that when I suffered appendicitis 2 weeks after finishing sertraline, they gave me antibiotics. that is the reason, surely of this situation of mine. I have no hope, I have some damage that can not be recovered. I am so scared. My diary shows me that I am gradually getting worse.

 

In addition, I am totally confused. I do not know who to believe, if this hypothesis of abstinence that only relies on the internet and that's why, nobody believes me, and if you do not believe me you do not support me. it seems a kind of stubbornness on my part not to want to medicate me, and consequently, I must be suffering so intensely from my will.

 

I find it very difficult to believe that I am the only person who is right, that all doctors and all my environment are wrong except me. This is very hard to believe.

 

 

[musk]

I feel that, whatever I do, or stop doing, I am wrong and making a mistake.

[AliG]

19 hours ago, musk said:

I give up. I can not anymore. Anxiety and agitation so great and continuous, that I can not stand one more day. All my family including my husband see as the only option to put me in the hands of hospital and medication. I, now, see that I have two options: either I die, or I submit. I let them do what they want with me. I submit. I can not anymore. Prolonged withdrawal, is not for me. I'm too weak psychologically. Possibly positive people confident with good beliefs can. I do not.

 

On 3/22/2018 at 4:18 AM, musk said:

My children are 10, 7 and 3 years old.

 

You have 3 children  ~ you can't give up, You have a little 3 year old, and a 7 year old and a 10 year old who need you to get well.

 

On 3/22/2018 at 4:18 AM, musk said:

My psychologist has advised me a retirement home

 

Great psychologist ! Why would he suggest that for you?

 

I'm too weak psychologically. Possibly positive people confident with good beliefs can..

I'm sorry you're feeling this way but I hope you can keep moving forward with a more positive mindset. You will make it through this.

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by AliG
added quote

[musk]

waw! Ali, I needed someone to make things very clear and pull my ears. I must wake up, I am in a very bad attitude with respect to my condition. I am conscious that I'm acting like a scared baby. I never learned to live with uncertainty. I have to start thinking like an adult and responsible person. I'm ashamed to admit this. I'm in a bad mindset and I dont know how to change.

[Rosetta]

The translation of "retirement home" may not be accurate.  In Spain it's possible a "retirement home" is a very different place than what those words mean in English?  You said there are doctors but no medications?  Is it anything like a soteria?

 

You obviously care about your children.  You would not be ashamed to say you don't otherwise.  The condition of your brain is making you think thoughts that are not the same as they would be if you were not in WD.  

 

I have been in that scared baby mindset.  It's very difficult.  I'm sad to see that you are being encouraged by your husband to take medication, but I hope you can resist until you get better.  My reason for not taking more medication was my fear that it would make my condition worse.  If you can't resist, I hope you have a good doctor who will know how to handle this.  I'm very intrigued by this:

On March 21, 2018 at 11:18 AM, musk said:

 

My psychologist has advised me a retirement home where they do therapy, care, soft exercise, relaxation, it is a center in a mountain village, naturist style, supervised by doctors and nurses, without medication of course. I do not know what I will do.

 

If they do not give or require medications, what is the name of this place?

[AliG]

M. We can work together if you are prepared to put up a fight.

[musk]

46 minutes ago, AliG said:

M. We can work together if you are prepared to put up a fight.

Thanks, Ali. I must to. I think I am not in a position to choose.  Although my starting point is very very very down. 

 

Sometimes I think that I have been involved in this current situation, not by chance. But because life has put me this hard test because I need to learn something important, and change some aspects of my personality.

[musk]

55 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

My reason for not taking more medication was my fear that it would make my condition worse.

I have the same fear. But not always. Sometimes I think also as a salvation. All the people around me see it so clearly! I am so confused, and scared on making bad decisions, and paralized

[musk]

1 hour ago, Rosetta said:

Is it anything like a soteria?

No, because it is not especially aimed at mental issues.

 

A retirement home is a kind of hotel but aimed at people who need to rest or recover from any problem of any kind.

 

There is normally only a general practitioner, naturist or homeopathic, who also does not reside in the house, only visit. They provide you with a good natural diet, guided activities such as relaxation, meditation, soft walks, various therapies. There may be people who are going to rest after some serious illness, people who are going to detoxify, or go for an addiction, or simply relax. They are private centers separated from the cities, noise, traffic.

 

I have not decided. I feel very sorry, very much, to separate myself from my children. It's far from my place of residence (500 km!), it would be quite money ...and above all, I would feel very lonely. Especially at these insomia nights with panic attacks. 

 

[Rosetta]

Do you have a nanny?  If not who will care for your children?  Your mother?

[musk]

No, I do not have nanny. My husband would take care of them. It works like freelance and now it's pretty free. But the idea of separating myself from them scares me so much, if they get sick while I'm so far away, and the enormous pain that they feel they will believe that I do not love them, that I have abandoned them ... I do not know. But on the other hand I think that I have to take care of myself. I do not know how to make decisions and take them!

[ChessieCat]

11 minutes ago, musk said:

I do not know how to make decisions and take them!

 

It is a hard decision to make.  It might be a good idea to write the good and bad things about it on a piece of paper.  The question that I think you need to think about is "would I be able to relax and not worry about my family whilst I am away?"  If you know that you would worry about them, then that would be very stressful and would not help you.

[musk]

Yes, I will worry about them, for sure. I always worry about almost everything.

 

It was precisely this personality trait that led me to take psychiatric drugs 

[Rosetta]

What if you spent the money you would use on the retirement home to have a person to help you with the kids so that you can get rest?  It's better to have time when you are resting and cannot be disturbed than to go that far away from the kids.  They would understand that much more easily.

[ChessieCat]

Rosetta that is an excellent idea.

[musk]

I think that children, right now, do not pose a great burden on my life. good, relatively. Now my husband does almost everything, with the support of my mother and his mother. There are very few moments when I am essential (not emotionally, but practically). I do not think a nanny is needed.

 

In the retirement home, I think, I want to be taken care of like a baby, to be pampered. Is what I intuit. I suppose, too, that leaving the daily routine totally, must have its positive effect on the mindset. I dont know.

[Rosetta]

Ok.  I understand that feeling of need.  I, too, wish I had someone to care for me that way.  I don't.  I'll tell you that I think you would find that you would miss your family too much and want to come home.  I think the worry would continue, but it would be about how your abscence was affecting your kids especially the 3 year old.  Could you go for a weekend to try it out without a huge financial commitment?

 

What I believe you are actually feeling is the need to get away from your own mind and emotional misery as well as your own body and the physical feelings of WD.  I suspect you would find that you can't "go" anywhere to get away.  You are right that the nights would be horrible.  I wouldn't want to be there having committed to paying for a month or a couple of weeks.  You would want to go home.  Your kids would ask for you.  You would be between a rock and a hard place.

 

You can do things that help relieve the misery -- get a very gentle Swedish massage, have a warm bath with Epsom salts, use a microwaveable heating pad on your shoulders, go into a dark room and listen to soothing music or guided meditation.  Do anything to distract yourself until evening comes.  I would spend your money on massages and anything else to relieve the feeling in your body that you call "agitation."  Maybe you could get foot massages and whole body massages everyday? Maybe there is a quiet place in your home or your mother's home where you can hide?  Maybe a masseuse will come to that place to help you?  I think your money would go much further to help you through this difficult period by using it in that way.  

 

This time of very intense agitation and anxiety will stop eventually.  It's not likely that anyone other than a masseuse can relieve it.      It's not likely that any place other than your home or your mother's house will be comfortable for you. I assume your mom is doing all she can to help.  Will she go on walks with you?  That's the best "treatment" I can think of.  The rest is something you need.  If you are feeling guilty for resting, please stop and take as much rest as you can.  Take baths and walks and rest.  Distract yourself with books or music and guided meditations and wait.  It's a hard thing to do, but it works.  I'm no stronger than you are; I just somehow made it through the worst part by distracting myself until evening gave me some relief.  

[Altostrata]

On 3/23/2018 at 2:34 AM, musk said:

Yesterday a general doctor told me one thing that is true: that if I continue like this without medication, I will ruin my future health, that I will have sequels (autoimmunity ...), and also destroy family life and the emotional health of my children .

 

What medication is the doctor talking about? This isn't true of psychiatric drugs, they have no effect on autoimmune conditions.

 

If the care facility is peaceful, caring, and does not depend on adding drugs, you might find it helpful.

[Happy2Heal]

On 3/23/2018 at 9:07 PM, Rosetta said:

What I believe you are actually feeling is the need to get away from your own mind and emotional misery as well as your own body and the physical feelings of WD.  I suspect you would find that you can't "go" anywhere to get away.  You are right that the nights would be horrible.  I wouldn't want to be there having committed to paying for a month or a couple of weeks.  You would want to go home.  Your kids would ask for you.  You would be between a rock and a hard place.

 

musk I think that Rosetta is right

 

many many of us have been where you are now. it sucks but you will get thru it.

 

it helps a lot to try very hard to live ONLY in the present moment, do not think about yesterday or any days in the past, do not think about tomorrow, just live in the very moment you are in.

 

you are doing a great job so far, you have much more strength than you even realize.

 

I've wanted to go places, to move out my apt, to go and visit my brother several states away, only to realize that what I wanted to get away from was in my own mind.

and I can't get away from that.

 

the thoughts and the feelings that WD/recovery cause are the most distressing things but they are not real and they are NOT going to last.

They are going to go away and you are going to feel better and that will likely happen soon

You've already noticed signs that things are getting better, keep looking for more of those

 

it's only human to want someone to take care of us when we dont' feel well. it's nothing to feel badly about.

if your mom is willing to help, let her. Someday you may have the opportunity to return the favor, who knows.

 

perhaps there is somewhere else closer that you can go to, to just rest for a short while, and to test out if getting away would even make a difference. I suspect it won't but it may, at the very least, be a good distraction.

 

you have to do what you think is best for you, and if that means a retirement home, that's fine too. 

wishing you speedy healing and relief from your symptoms soon

 

 

[musk]

4 hours ago, Happy2Heal said:

You've already noticed signs that things are getting better, keep looking for more of those

 

Maybe I'm blind and now I can not see it, but I do not have that impression. I have not seen anything improve.

 

But thanks for your message anyway.

[musk]

7 hours ago, Altostrata said:

What medication is the doctor talking about? This isn't true of psychiatric drugs, they have no effect on autoimmune conditions.

 

 

True?? If this is the case, you are taking a huge burden off me. It refers to psychiatric drugs, yes. I thought that withdrawal could have sequels.

 

Alto, - and the other mods: I need to ask about adverse effects.

 

At the end of December I took a sertraline pill, the normal recommended dose. I have not related the facts until now, but I've noticed that things have gotten much worse since then. Before that, I was not feeling well, but my situation worsened when I took that pill, just now 3 months ago. My question is: how do adverse effects tend to evolve? they are usually solved too, like the withdrawal syndrome? 

 

I am very afraid of being permanently affected. As it is now, life is simply unsustainable.