wildchild93: Long term Effexor use, is there hope?

[DaveB]

44 minutes ago, wildchild93 said:

I think it will still be possible either way. I met up with a lady from my church who went through a similar experience who I found out today was a member on Paxil Progress. She was on and off of Paxil for 10 years and then on it consistently for another 10 years. She tried to get off of it, couldn’t do it, and is now living and functioning normally on a low dose of Cymbalta which she plans to stay on for life. 

 

I haven’t taken any Seroquel since January, thought I was past that. I might try a higher dose of melatonin first because all of my sleep hygiene things don’t seem to be enough right now.

 

Yeah I know what you mean thinking you were past something, only to have it come back. I have felt that many times the last few months as I have seen some improvement, then not, then seen improvement, then not. Frustrating process, though I would choose the Seroquel over a hospital stay if it came down to it, but for sure try the melatonin 1st. 

[wildchild93]

16 hours ago, DaveB said:

 

Yeah I know what you mean thinking you were past something, only to have it come back. I have felt that many times the last few months as I have seen some improvement, then not, then seen improvement, then not. Frustrating process, though I would choose the Seroquel over a hospital stay if it came down to it, but for sure try the melatonin 1st. 

So frustrating. Last night I tried melatonin first, nothing; then 50mg Seroquel, nothing; and finally 1mg Klonopin, within 30 minutes I was out. I was not about to go another night with 2-3hrs of sleep. **** it.

[DaveB]

10 minutes ago, wildchild93 said:

So frustrating. Last night I tried melatonin first, nothing; then 50mg Seroquel, nothing; and finally 1mg Klonopin, within 30 minutes I was out. I was not about to go another night with 2-3hrs of sleep. **** it.

 

Sleep issues really are the worst, couple that with anxiety and it is almost unfair! Glad you finally got some sleep even if you had to take stuff to get you there. 

[wildchild93]

1 hour ago, DaveB said:

Sleep issues really are the worst, couple that with anxiety and it is almost unfair! Glad you finally got some sleep even if you had to take stuff to get you there. 

Yea, I am definitely feeling the effects of it today. I don’t have any anxiety, which is nice. But I don’t have much of anything else either. Are you working currently? (If you don’t mind me asking)

[DaveB]

37 minutes ago, wildchild93 said:

Yea, I am definitely feeling the effects of it today. I don’t have any anxiety, which is nice. But I don’t have much of anything else either. Are you working currently? (If you don’t mind me asking)

 

Yes I own car dealerships. I'll bet no anxiety feels very nice, other people would know much more about Klonopin, but I know Dr Shipko actually recommends benzos for severe cases of withdrawal. I am guessing for the reason you are experiencing. 

[powerback]

35 minutes ago, DaveB said:

 

Yes I own car dealerships. I'll bet no anxiety feels very nice, other people would know much more about Klonopin, but I know Dr Shipko actually recommends benzos for severe cases of withdrawal. I am guessing for the reason you are experiencing. 

HI Dave what you write here about benzos is very interesting ,by the way I have been since I woke is making me think I'm damaging myself white knuckling this ,I wonder what the mods make of what he says .I believe myself  to be in the extreme end of withdrawl and will probably have to take benzos to see this out .

[wildchild93]

14 hours ago, DaveB said:

Dr Shipko actually recommends benzos for severe cases of withdrawal.

 

13 hours ago, powerback said:

I Dave what you write here about benzos is very interesting ,by the way I have been since I woke is making me think I'm damaging myself white knuckling this ,I wonder what the mods make of what he says .I believe myself  to be in the extreme end of withdrawl and will probably have to take benzos to see this out .

 

God I wish he was my doctor. I can deal with it during the day, but when it’s time for me to sleep, I think it’s better to take a benzo and let your brain get some rest/try to heal then to only sleep 1-2 hrs/night. That just doesn’t seem beneficial at all. If I think there’s any chance that I can go without one, then I will. But some nights, benzos seem to be the only thing that works. you know?

 

Edited March 9, 2018 by ChessieCat
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[Gridley]

We are not in favor of adding benzos.  What starts off as an as-needed basis can easily become an every night thing, and you can become dependent within 2 weeks of this.  It happened to me, and now I have three drugs to get off instead of two.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DaveB]

43 minutes ago, Gridley said:

We are not in favor of adding benzos.  What starts off as an as-needed basis can easily become an every night thing, and you can become dependent within 2 weeks of this.  It happened to me, and now I have three drugs to get off instead of two.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I wasn't advocating for benzos. Just saying that they are the one thing that does seem to help withdrawal anxiety, though as you pointed out, often at a great cost. 

[Shep]

3 hours ago, wildchild93 said:

God I wish he was my doctor. I can deal with it during the day, but when it’s time for me to sleep, I think it’s better to take a benzo and let your brain get some rest/try to heal then to only sleep 1-2 hrs/night. That just doesn’t seem beneficial at all. If I think there’s any chance that I can go without one, then I will. But some nights, benzos seem to be the only thing that works. you know?

 

Hi, wildchild.  Are you speaking hypothetically or are you taking a benzo at night?

 

If you are on a benzo, please let us know and add what you are taking to your signature, along with the date you started. It's okay if you're already on a benzo, but this is important information that can affect the tapering advice you receive here and we want you to be safe.

 

As Gridley stated, all it takes is two weeks for a benzo or z-drug dependency to form. 

 

[wildchild93]

42 minutes ago, Shep said:

  Are you speaking hypothetically or are you taking a benzo at night?

Last night, I took 1mg klonopin for the first time since the new year. 

[Shep]

1 hour ago, wildchild93 said:

Last night, I took 1mg klonopin for the first time since the new year. 

 

On 2/2/2018 at 5:26 PM, wildchild93 said:

klonooin 0.25-1mg june 2017-january 2018 for sleep. memory problems, decreased effectiveness over time 

 

On 3/5/2018 at 2:41 PM, wildchild93 said:

I can remember a time when benzos were the only thing that would get me to go to sleep. So in that sense, I have improved. 

 

 

I've linked what you just posted with two earlier posts, as it gives your full history. 

 

I would be very careful of even periodic use of a benzo due to your prior history. While all psychiatric drugs can cause limbic kindling, benzos seem to be more likely to cause this effect. This means that each taper is more difficult than the previous one. 

 

Limbic Kindling -- Hardwiring the brain for hypersensitivity

 

For more information on benzos, please check out the green stickied posts at the top of the benzo forum.

 

Members-only benzo forum

 

 

On 3/2/2018 at 1:52 PM, wildchild93 said:

Haven’t had to take anything for sleep in a month and a half now, praise God. 

 

 

This post from 6 days ago is a great sign that you are on your way to healing, Wildchild. Please be very careful adding in other drugs because you have a clear history of windows. That means that healing is happening. 

 

Are you able to take epsom salt baths to relax before bedtime?

 

Epsom salts baths -- another way to relax with magnesium

 

Or perhaps some guided meditations:

 

Guided meditations, calming videos, sleep hypnosis

 

Or any number of other non-drug coping techniques to help.

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

I was 17 when I went on these drugs, so not nearly as young as you were, but because I stayed on them for 30 years, I had to learn a lot about how to self-soothe without drugs in order to be able to sleep without any benzos, z-drugs, APs, etc. 

 

It's really important to learn how to calm yourself down and to let go. Sleep will come. You've already had a massive window that showed you your brain really is healing. 

 

But the ideas in the no-drug coping techniques thread is a great place to start to learn these kinds of skills so as you come off these drugs, you're ready to handle all of the emotions and whatever stress comes your way. 

[wildchild93]

19 hours ago, Shep said:

This post from 6 days ago is a great sign that you are on your way to healing, Wildchild. Please be very careful adding in other drugs because you have a clear history of windows. That means that healing is happening. 

I guess it’s like where do you draw the line? 3 nights without sleep, 4? If I let it go more than 2 nights without sleep, my mind starts to play tricks on me and I start getting instense thoughts of suicide and start seeing rapid images behind my eyelids. Then I am useless the next day cause I haven’t slept and just kind of lay around the house in a state of nothingness. I already take baths every night, go to bed the same time each night, exercise during the day, eat clean, abstain from alcohol, go to accupuncture 2xs week, practice yoga, use essential oils, burn insence, and don’t eat anything before bed. I don’t really know what else I can do. If the brains not shutting down, it’s not shutting down. So a I can either 1)Let it run its course, knowing that at some point I have to sleep and be miserable, useless, and in pain until then or 2)Take a low dose benzo prn (very sparingly) so that I can help give my body the rest that it needs. I know they can be addictive and you have to be careful and cautious. I’m a RN, I see them abused almost everyday in the hospital. Idk, I guess for me it’s like withholding oxycodone from a patient who just had joint replacement surgery. 

[Shep]

40 minutes ago, wildchild93 said:

2)Take a low dose benzo prn (very sparingly) so that I can help give my body the rest that it needs.

 

1 mg Klonopin is NOT low dose - please note that Klonopin is 20 times more potent than Valium. 

 

Benzo.org.uk - Benzo Equivalency

 

Next time you use it, you may want to try .25 mg and see if that works. 

 

[wildchild93]

15 hours ago, Shep said:

Next time you use it, you may want to try .25 mg and see if that works. 

Ok. Hopefully just a little bump. wednesday the 7th was the only night that i took anything.

[DaveB]

On 3/10/2018 at 7:00 AM, wildchild93 said:

Ok. Hopefully just a little bump. wednesday the 7th was the only night that i took anything.

 

How are you doing wildchild? I know you had a rough week last week, hoping you are doing much better this week. 

[wildchild93]

8 hours ago, DaveB said:

How are you doing wildchild? I know you had a rough week last week, hoping you are doing much better this week. 

Thanks for asking. I’ve been doing pretty poorly. I had been going to tms therapy middle of january-beginning of march. I didn’t really know if it was doing anything, but I had been improving during that time. I thought that maybe it was just due to the time passing and lifestyle changes. However, when I started to taper off of the tms, I began having some major sleep issues reammerge. I went many nights this week without sleeping and finally had enough of it last night and took 50mg seroquel. With no sleep, a lot of my depression symptoms have come back and it is absolutely hellish. I had been sleeping every night consistently and was as active as possible throughout the days. Now with no sleep, or waking up with an antipsychotic in my system, it’s very difficult for me to do any kind of exercise in the morning besides walk and I started to lay around in the mornings a lot more. It sucks, cause I look at where I was, having breaks where I would contemplate going back to work and now not even able to function til around noon. 

 

I don’t know what to do. I feel like I have tried everything. I have a meeting with the tms doctor on monday so I’m hoping that my insurance will pay for a second round. The techs have definitely witnessed me deteriorate over the course of a couple weeks so that helps. That and the fact that I am so young and literally have had no medical history until last year. Sometimes I still feel like this isn’t really my life and I’m just waiting to wake up. 

 

I also have an appointment with a doctor at john hopkins coming up. I completely forgot that I had even gotten on that wait list. It was so long ago lol. I don’t feel like going, but my boyfriend doesn’t think that another opinion can hurt. It’s not like I’ll have to miss work for it or anything. 

 

I have had a few people who support me, but my parents still think that I am “ill” and have always been “ill”. My mom just pulled out this big folder with all of the doctors and therapists that they took me to when I was young and wanted me to read through them. I don’t remember any of it so I can’t say that how I feel now is different than how I felt then. I know that I’ve never had depression or trouble sleeping before in my life. It’s just hard for me to believe that anyone is born feeling the way that I do with all of the jumping out of skin symptoms. Part of me wants to believe that it’s the illness and I can just find a pill to make his all go away, but I’ve already tried an entire year of that. 

[primekittycat]

@wildchild93, with daylight saving time starting earlier this week, have you found yourself sleeping in later? since it's darker in the morning, I've found it harder to get up in the morning this week (as most of us probably have), as well as staying up later because it's later than I think it is. maybe you're sleeping in more which is making it harder to get to sleep the next night?

[wildchild93]

54 minutes ago, primekittycat said:

 

@wildchild93, with daylight saving time starting earlier this week, have you found yourself sleeping in later? since it's darker in the morning, I've found it harder to get up in the morning this week (as most of us probably have), as well as staying up later because it's later than I think it is. maybe you're sleeping in more which is making it harder to get to sleep the next night?

 

I have found myself not sleeping at all. I’m not joking, like not in 4 days. I didn’t even know that was possible. But it started before the day light savings switch  

[wildchild93]

**** Seroquel though, I’d rather take a benzo and not tank my bp and hr.

[wildchild93]

Lord, I am trusting you and not taking anything for sleep. God help me 🙏🏼

[wildchild93]

Guys, I need help. I am no longer sleeping. I will go 2-4 nights without a wink. 

 

Ive tried melatonin, magnesium, l-theanine, passionflower, 5htp, low does klonopin, epsom salt baths, changing rooms, distracting myself. 

 

Nothing is working. I can’t keep going on like this. I no longer have the energy to exercise and my memory, cognition, anxiety, and depression are all getting worse. This is literal hell on earth.

[DaveB]

10 hours ago, wildchild93 said:

Guys, I need help. I am no longer sleeping. I will go 2-4 nights without a wink. 

 

Ive tried melatonin, magnesium, l-theanine, passionflower, 5htp, low does klonopin, epsom salt baths, changing rooms, distracting myself. 

 

Nothing is working. I can’t keep going on like this. I no longer have the energy to exercise and my memory, cognition, anxiety, and depression are all getting worse. This is literal hell on earth.

 

I am so sorry, sometimes sleep can go in cycles and phases, but when dealing with everything else, it makes it unbearable. When I stared Zyprexa I was waking every morning at like 4:30AM shaking and sweating from the anxiety. As much as I hate the Zyprexa, at least this isn't the case anymore, and it was fixed pretty quick. Does the seroquel help? what about klonopin? I am not advocating drugs, as if at ALL possible I would not add anything to your situation, but if nothing has worked and your can't function, it may be the lesser of two evils. However, as Shep pointed out, you are having windows and healing, so adding anything would for sure be a LAST resort!

[wildchild93]

6 minutes ago, DaveB said:

 

I am so sorry, sometimes sleep can go in cycles and phases, but when dealing with everything else, it makes it unbearable. When I stared Zyprexa I was waking every morning at like 4:30AM shaking and sweating from the anxiety. As much as I hate the Zyprexa, at least this isn't the case anymore, and it was fixed pretty quick. Does the seroquel help? what about klonopin? I am not advocating drugs, as if at ALL possible I would not add anything to your situation, but if nothing has worked and your can't function, it may be the lesser of two evils. However, as Shep pointed out, you are having windows and healing, so adding anything would for sure be a LAST resort!

Yea I know it seemed like I was making progress until tms ended. I had my post treatment evaluation today and based on my scores, the doctor said that I would definitely qualify for a second round of treatment. They are going to present my case tomorrow to my insuramce company and call me when they here back.

 

It is so crazy because I was sleeping so consistently when I was going and was like you, waking up with morning anxiety. Now I don’t have morning anxiety cause I don’t sleep lol. I’ve been nibbling on klonopin.

 

Last night I tried taking 0.25mg, still did not sleep. I am leary to go higher than that but I will if I have to. Either that or try drinking red wine before bed. As crazy as that sounds, I would rather risk having to withdraw from alcohol than to go through klonopin withdrawl again. It’s just not fair.

 

I came across this doctor online while reading an article about antipsychotic and antidepressant withdraw. Turns out, she’s from Maryland. When does that ever happen??  I’m going to try and see if she is accepting new patients. From what I’ve seen on her site, I am impressed. 

 

http://www.holisticpsychiatrist.com/information-medication-withdrawal/

 

[DaveB]

How are you doing? Looks like that holistic psychiatrist could be a good option for you, I hope you have been getting some relief. 

[wildchild93]

8 hours ago, DaveB said:

How are you doing? Looks like that holistic psychiatrist could be a good option for you, I hope you have been getting some relief. 

I’m holding on. I got approved for another round of tms therapy so that will be starting on monday. 

 

I had to reschedule the osteopathic psychiatrist because of the snow, but I just went to a free talk given by a different doctor in DC who i really liked so I’ll have to see how the other consultation goes and then decide. 

 

This week has been really rough sleep wise. The nights that I don’t sleep, I’m more depressed, but more calm the next day and not as physically agitated. When I do sleep, my anxiety is so high and my body is restless the next morning, but I’m not as depressed. I got 4 hours of natural sleep last night which was better. Wednesday night and Thursday night I didn’t sleep at all. I bought a mask and speakers all in one so I’ll try playing some white noise to see if that helps. 

 

I found this app on my phone called eMoods which is helping me to track my symptoms and sleep patterns better.

 

Since tms has seemed to really help with my sleep and depressive symptoms, I’m wondering if some kind of alpha stimulator or fisher wallace device might be a good investment. They seem so goofy idk. 

[peng]

wildchild93 - To me as a grandfather, your story is such a heartbreaker.  

 

I am from a totally different age group (72) but have lived with the effexor beast since 2002, and a few other psychotropic drugs, off and on, since 1977 (I was 32).  

As for the effexor, much of the time in recent years, I was on 150-225mg until I found this site a couple of years ago.

 

I am currently taking only 57.5mg after following the 5-10% taper rule and holding for weeks, sometimes months, when struggling.

I do not feel great very often, in fact I have a few "wave" days when I feel lousy, but I do not feel much worse than when I was on 150-225mg and have optimism of reducing further to a place where the side effects and other discomforts of illness are bearable! 

(Check out the graphs on my intro thread.)

 

You seem to have done a lot of chopping and changing meds in your desperation.  Most of us will know how you feel and will sympathise immensely.  My view, is that perhaps those alternative therapies you are pursuing and trying are most worthwhile, and will be preferable in the long run to trying different pharmaceutical substances.

 

If I could give you only one tip, it would be to try and bring medication stability into the equation.  "Playing ping-pong with your brain" by chopping & changing the drug is a familiar term used on here, with good reason.  It is a great analogy.

 

Sending you love, best wishes, hope, optimism and strength of will.

[wildchild93]

50 minutes ago, peng said:

wildchild93 - To me as a grandfather, your story is such a heartbreaker.  

 

I am from a totally different age group (72) but have lived with the effexor beast since 2002, and a few other psychotropic drugs, off and on, since 1977 (I was 32).  

As for the effexor, much of the time in recent years, I was on 150-225mg until I found this site a couple of years ago.

 

I am currently taking only 57.5mg after following the 5-10% taper rule and holding for weeks, sometimes months, when struggling.

I do not feel great very often, in fact I have a few "wave" days when I feel lousy, but I do not feel much worse than when I was on 150-225mg and have optimism of reducing further to a place where the side effects and other discomforts of illness are bearable! 

(Check out the graphs on my intro thread.)

 

You seem to have done a lot of chopping and changing meds in your desperation.  Most of us will know how you feel and will sympathise immensely.  My view, is that perhaps those alternative therapies you are pursuing and trying are most worthwhile, and will be preferable in the long run to trying different pharmaceutical substances.

 

If I could give you only one tip, it would be to try and bring medication stability into the equation.  "Playing ping-pong with your brain" by chopping & changing the drug is a familiar term used on here, with good reason.  It is a great analogy.

 

Sending you love, best wishes, hope, optimism and strength of will.

Thanks for the support. I have been holding 75mg effexor since the new year. I know I did a lot of bouncing around before that because I thought that it was my illness coming back.

 

Last night I slept 7 hours on my own and woke up feeling calm and rested so that was a nice surprise.  

[peng]

Well, that has to be regarded as an upturn.  Good luck!

[wildchild93]

On 3/24/2018 at 11:23 AM, DaveB said:

How are you doing? Looks like that holistic psychiatrist could be a good option for you, I hope you have been getting some relief. 

She was terrible! You would laugh at some of her treatment methods. It was a scam. However, I really like the one in dc that I met so my mom and I will be driving down tomorrow for an appointment. 

[wildchild93]

Things are getting pretty rough. I prayed about the second round of tms and decided to stop it (would have had to pay the $1000 deductabile on my insurance) and was scared of the way that I was feeling after two sessions. 

 

I’m thinking about increasing my dose of effexor from 75mg to 112.5mg. I have been holding at 75mg since the new year and think that after lots of research and prayer, my best option at this time is to try increasing the dosage. I’m coming up on a year since everything went south and I really need to be able to function and work again. This isn’t to say that I will not try to come off one day, but when that time comes, I will go SUPER slow and do it the right way. For me, at this time in my life, stability is more important than being off of the medicine. 

[wildchild93]

I haven’t done this yet. ^^^ I was having intense, hysteric crying spells and a lot of suicidal ideation today. Still don’t know what I’m going to do. 

[Rosetta]

Please wait for a Mod to see this.  From 75 to 112.5 mg is a big increase.  That's (DELETE: more than) 50 percent.  It could be devastating.  I have seen people say that one dose like that destroyed all the progress he/she had made.  

 

If your CNS is destabilized, as I suspect it is, a tiny increase will probably be much more safe.  I know Effexor doesn't come in pills that allow tiny increases, but there is a rule of thumb as to increases for people who are in WD.  I'm sure a Mod will explain it to you or point you to a post that helps make it clear.  The thread on reinstatement might give some information about the concept.

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/7562-about-reinstating-and-stabilizing-to-reduce-withdrawal-symptoms/

 

ADDED: I'm sorry you are suffering so much.  I've been there.  It's very hard to endure.  

[brassmonkey]

Hi wildchild-- I sorry to see that things are going so badly.  Getting desperate for relief is a terrible place to be and can make us do irrational things.  As Rosetta pointed out that is a huge increase and would more that likely cause a lot more trouble then it would fix.  Updosing can be a very tricky thing so it is best to start small and see what happens.  We usually recommend only increasing by 1 or 2 mgai to see how a person reacts.  It can be surprising just how much such a small amount can help.  So I wouldn't go up to more than 76 or 77 mgai.  There may be some relief almost immediately, but it can take four day to a week for things to really kick in, so please be patient. After that it could take a longer time for things to really stabilize.

[DaveB]

On 3/28/2018 at 7:46 AM, wildchild93 said:

Things are getting pretty rough. I prayed about the second round of tms and decided to stop it (would have had to pay the $1000 deductabile on my insurance) and was scared of the way that I was feeling after two sessions. 

 

I’m thinking about increasing my dose of effexor from 75mg to 112.5mg. I have been holding at 75mg since the new year and think that after lots of research and prayer, my best option at this time is to try increasing the dosage. I’m coming up on a year since everything went south and I really need to be able to function and work again. This isn’t to say that I will not try to come off one day, but when that time comes, I will go SUPER slow and do it the right way. For me, at this time in my life, stability is more important than being off of the medicine. 

 

What did you end up doing WC? Are you doing any better?

[wildchild93]

29 minutes ago, DaveB said:

 

I increased to 150mg (my pretaper dose) and am sticking with the tms. I still cry a good bit, but the akisthesia went away and has yet to come back. After the first couple of nights, I’ve been sleeping much better and am actually kind of sleepy during the day which is a good thing for me. I’m still working through some depressive symptoms, but it feels good to be able to wake up, drive, watch tv without feeling like someone’s shoving caffeine into my veins. I’m still suffering, but don’t feel like I’m being tortured now if that makes sense. I’m going to be patient and stick with this dose and see if things improve. Getting rid of the akisthesia was huge for me. I feel like I can finally breath again.