Where are all the success stories? Does nobody ever heal?

[spokety]

On 3/11/2018 at 8:34 PM, Hellbutrin said:

Hi Potions,

 

I really genuinely can't thank you enough for taking the time to write this post. This is the most encouraging post that I've read so far regarding anhedonia. I'm sitting at my computer bawling because of how elating it is to see such an eloquent reassurance that this condition will pass eventually. I'm okay with the idea that I might not get back to my predrugged state. My main issue is that there is so little information available about the mechanisms behind emotional blunting that it causes deep despair having no assurance that this is just a condition that will heal. It also doesn't help that the nature of PAWS causes our brains to automatically jump to the most negative conclusion that it can possibly come to about EVERYTHING. Thanks again for the reassurance, I hope that once I'm healed I can be a reassuring hand for someone going through a similar situation with these drugs. 

My problem isn't getting my emotions back, because they usually come back eventually.  My problem is staying out of the hospital when they do come back.  I don't know what to do because I just keep getting hospitalized. Sometimes people tell me it's because I'm stopping cold turkey, but even when I stopped cold turkey before it took 6 months before I had an episode.  I'm considering going to a group home.

[Hellbutrin]

13 hours ago, spokety said:

My problem isn't getting my emotions back, because they usually come back eventually.  My problem is staying out of the hospital when they do come back.  I don't know what to do because I just keep getting hospitalized. Sometimes people tell me it's because I'm stopping cold turkey, but even when I stopped cold turkey before it took 6 months before I had an episode.  I'm considering going to a group home.

Why does getting your emotions back end up with you in the hospital? I would think that a return of your positive emotions would be a welcome reprieve from the hellish withdrawal that we experience until the positive emotions eventually do return. I stopped C/T 8 months ago and I also almost ended up hospitalizing myself after I was off of the medication for about 3 months. It's scary to think that we could go on for so long with this struggle only to end up back on the medication because the withdrawal gets worse the longer we try to stick it out. 

[Hellbutrin]

18 hours ago, potions said:

I am 19 too and an extremely neurotic/anxious person and I have spent hours upon hours stressing, crying, bawling my eyes out in despair over both withdrawal disorder and pssd for multiple months, but you don’t see me getting mad at older people for not uplifting me about this condition or having their own concerns about it. I know multiple people our age who have pssd and/or are suffering intensely from AD withdrawal who are far more relaxed and positive than I, and I have a friend who is a bit older than I who is currently severely depressed and suffering severely with AD withdrawal. Age doesn’t matter. Everyone is different, and you shouldn’t be telling older people not to express their concerns just because they should be “lifting the younger people up.” Just my opinion. . .

Wow, that's incredible that you're 19 and you are so knowledgable about withdrawal. It's impressive to see young people that have a drive to educate themselves through this withdrawal instead of taking the easy way out and just hopping back on the meds. Antidepressant withdrawal certainly doesn't discriminate, it can effect people of all ages with all different backgrounds. Thanks for providing some insight into your personal struggle and I genuinely hope that you see healing soon!

[spokety]

16 minutes ago, Hellbutrin said:

Why does getting your emotions back end up with you in the hospital? I would think that a return of your positive emotions would be a welcome reprieve from the hellish withdrawal that we experience until the positive emotions eventually do return. I stopped C/T 8 months ago and I also almost ended up hospitalizing myself after I was off of the medication for about 3 months. It's scary to think that we could go on for so long with this struggle only to end up back on the medication because the withdrawal gets worse the longer we try to stick it out. 

Ya for me I don't usually get the positive emotions back first.  I get the negative ones like fear, paranoia, anxiety, etc which causes me to have some type of episode.  Ya for me I don't even know if my symptoms are considered withdrawal symptoms or not, because the symptoms I have now are the exact same ones I had when I was on the medication, it's not like something was added once I got off the meds.  I wish we could all come together and protest or something.

[Madeleine]

On 2018-03-12 at 12:42 PM, mrsrebeccahall said:

I’m a success story. I took a hundred different psych meds during my 13.5 year steady stint on SSRIs. I have been off meds two years and doing great. 

Thank you for sharing!  Very happy to read your update. 

[Runnergirl]

Hi Madeline,  Thank you for posting your success story.  I guess there is hope.   Did you have insomnia?  That is my biggest problem right now and it is horrible.  I cannot function without sleep.  How long before you saw some light at the end of the tunnel?  I was on Klonopon for 7 years and Amintriptyline for 7 years both at the same time.  I do not trust doctors anymore!

 

Thank you

[caperjackie]

Runnergirl ........  Sleep issues can take a while to resolve and lack of sleep seems to make everything so much harder so I understand how this can get you down. Sadly insomnia (in one form or another) seems to be part of the process. Hope you are practicing good 'sleep hygiene' ..... it helps a little.  It WILL pass ........ just try to get through it as best as you can ........ you are on your way!

[Evoldnahturt]

This spooked me pretty badly as well, but I slowly healed over time.  Before finding SA, I remember thinking "Is this my life now?  Am I going to have to commit suicide?".  Then I found SA and realized that there was a good chance I could recover if I followed the patterns I noticed in the success stories.  The first year after reinstatement was rough, after about a year and a half I was able to enjoy life off and on.  At about two years out, my symptoms don't really get in the way of enjoying myself.  I have to be careful with not over-exercising, getting too stressed, or exposing myself to chemicals and drugs, but other than that, I'm doing pretty well.  I might intentionally expose myself to a small amount of marijuana on my next hiking trip as I've been doing well for a long enough period of time that I'm becoming complacent.  I'm still tapering.  I should be done with my taper in about four years.

 

Most people don't care about others.  They say they do because they still want other people to like them and they don't want to admit to themselves that they're a wild animal, but if you'll notice how people tend to behave in larger groups (big cities) where nobody knows anybody else and attempting to establish a reputation within that group would be futile, we typically devolve into wild animals.  There is seemly no self-serving purpose to coming back here and giving us hope, so they don't.

[spokety]

6 hours ago, Evoldnahturt said:

This spooked me pretty badly as well, but I slowly healed over time.  Before finding SA, I remember thinking "Is this my life now?  Am I going to have to commit suicide?".  Then I found SA and realized that there was a good chance I could recover if I followed the patterns I noticed in the success stories.  The first year after reinstatement was rough, after about a year and a half I was able to enjoy life off and on.  At about two years out, my symptoms don't really get in the way of enjoying myself.  I have to be careful with not over-exercising, getting too stressed, or exposing myself to chemicals and drugs, but other than that, I'm doing pretty well.  I might intentionally expose myself to a small amount of marijuana on my next hiking trip as I've been doing well for a long enough period of time that I'm becoming complacent.  I'm still tapering.  I should be done with my taper in about four years.

 

Most people don't care about others.  They say they do because they still want other people to like them and they don't want to admit to themselves that they're a wild animal, but if you'll notice how people tend to behave in larger groups (big cities) where nobody knows anybody else and attempting to establish a reputation within that group would be futile, we typically devolve into wild animals.  There is seemly no self-serving purpose to coming back here and giving us hope, so they don't.

Your tapering over a four year period?? That's a really long taper, most doctors only recommend tapering down a couple of months or something right?  I'm not having withdrawal symptoms, my symptoms came from the first time I took the medication and I stopped cold turkey and the side effects when no where.  I even tried tapering down with a doctor and it went no where.  I mean when I finally do start getting emotions I freak out and have an episode and then I get hospitalized because my parents freak out.  But sometimes it's my fault, I will run out the street naked or stop eating and talking or something.  It's something I need to really stop.

[Evoldnahturt]

I'm not sure about the cases like yours where the symptoms start immediately after taking the first dose.  My approach seems to work for people whose symptoms begin or worse after withdrawing.  Doctors do typically recommend a much more rapid taper, which would work for most people, but didn't work for me.

[Hellbutrin]

On 4/1/2018 at 2:58 AM, Evoldnahturt said:

I'm not sure about the cases like yours where the symptoms start immediately after taking the first dose.  My approach seems to work for people whose symptoms begin or worse after withdrawing.  Doctors do typically recommend a much more rapid taper, which would work for most people, but didn't work for me.

Hi Evoldnahturt,

 

I'm not sure what's going on with me. I'm still having suicidal thoughts and it's been almost 9 months since I C/T. I wasn't taking that high of a dose and in the grand scheme of things I really didn't take the medication for that long, less than two years. Wellbutrin was the only psychiatric medication that I had ever taken, and I wasn't taking it for depression, I was taking it for anxiety. Now, ever since my C/T almost 9 months ago I've been experiencing EXTREME depression and even worse anxiety. I think that my nervous system might have been to sensitive for me to have been on the medication in the first place. And I know that the "this is permanent" thoughts are an inherent part of withdrawal, but I really do think that I might have done some serious damage to myself.  I'm also concerned because I've read that a lot of people start seeing at least some improvements around the 1 year mark, and I'm quickly approaching that and haven't seen any progress. 

[rowinghippy]

On 4/5/2018 at 8:59 AM, Hellbutrin said:

 

I'm not sure what's going on with me. I'm still having suicidal thoughts and it's been almost 9 months since I C/T. I wasn't taking that high of a dose and in the grand scheme of things I really didn't take the medication for that long, less than two years. Wellbutrin was the only psychiatric medication that I had ever taken, and I wasn't taking it for depression, I was taking it for anxiety. Now, ever since my C/T almost 9 months ago I've been experiencing EXTREME depression and even worse anxiety. I think that my nervous system might have been to sensitive for me to have been on the medication in the first place. And I know that the "this is permanent" thoughts are an inherent part of withdrawal, but I really do think that I might have done some serious damage to myself.  I'm also concerned because I've read that a lot of people start seeing at least some improvements around the 1 year mark, and I'm quickly approaching that and haven't seen any progress. 

 

Hi Hellbutrin,

 

I was only on citalopram for 3 months (put on for panic attacks related to a life event; I was not depressed), and yet I've been in just as much hell as the rest of us. This summer I'll hit 2 years of withdrawal so far, and that has included a long taper and not just a CT. Point being, I'm not too surprised to hear you are where you are right now, since 2 years is by no means a short period to be on ADs.

 

Month 8 for me was when it really sunk in that I was in for a long ride, and that's when my depression really got bad. The one year mark was probably the worst I've been; months 10-16 I was mostly bed ridden, except for the bathroom or occasional water/food trip. I've finally seen some real improvement in the past 2 months (before, some things would improve, while others would pop up/worsen, creating a zero-sum gain). So, try to just hang on. Not to be insulting (as I gather that I felt the same way as you), but 9 months isn't that long; it's impossible to predict how you'll be in a few months. 

 

I don't have much advice for the feelings that this may be permanent, as I struggle with this too. If it's any consolation, it seems that mental/emotional WD symptoms do tend to clear up; it seems things like digestive issues and fatigue are the type of symptoms that linger longest (based on success stories I've read here and elsewhere), but those are, at least in my mind, comparatively easier to deal with. 

 

Lastly, I couldn't accept this back in month 9 of my withdrawal, but 2 years into this experience (from when i started meds; pre-WD was honestly just as bad as WD, given my side effects), I accept this will take at least another few years. Yeah, it sucks. You don't have to accept that this may go on longer than you want right now, although I hope you can. But, just hold on if that's all you can do.

 

Sorry, I'm not too good at this kind of stuff. Hopefully something I said was useful.

[Hellbutrin]

58 minutes ago, rowinghippy said:

 

Hi Hellbutrin,

 

I was only on citalopram for 3 months (put on for panic attacks related to a life event; I was not depressed), and yet I've been in just as much hell as the rest of us. This summer I'll hit 2 years of withdrawal so far, and that has included a long taper and not just a CT. Point being, I'm not too surprised to hear you are where you are right now, since 2 years is by no means a short period to be on ADs.

 

Month 8 for me was when it really sunk in that I was in for a long ride, and that's when my depression really got bad. The one year mark was probably the worst I've been; months 10-16 I was mostly bed ridden, except for the bathroom or occasional water/food trip. I've finally seen some real improvement in the past 2 months (before, some things would improve, while others would pop up/worsen, creating a zero-sum gain). So, try to just hang on. Not to be insulting (as I gather that I felt the same way as you), but 9 months isn't that long; it's impossible to predict how you'll be in a few months. 

 

I don't have much advice for the feelings that this may be permanent, as I struggle with this too. If it's any consolation, it seems that mental/emotional WD symptoms do tend to clear up; it seems things like digestive issues and fatigue are the type of symptoms that linger longest (based on success stories I've read here and elsewhere), but those are, at least in my mind, comparatively easier to deal with. 

 

Lastly, I couldn't accept this back in month 9 of my withdrawal, but 2 years into this experience (from when i started meds; pre-WD was honestly just as bad as WD, given my side effects), I accept this will take at least another few years. Yeah, it sucks. You don't have to accept that this may go on longer than you want right now, although I hope you can. But, just hold on if that's all you can do.

 

Sorry, I'm not too good at this kind of stuff. Hopefully something I said was useful.

Hi Rowinghippy,

 

Thanks for the feedback. Were you bed ridden at all prior to the 10-16 month period of being bed ridden? I've had debilitating depression since my C/T but I've continued to work full time and I haven't come close to feeling like I need to quit. But the possibility that this can get worse than it already is (I was suicidal in the beginning of November) is terrifying to me. I wouldn't survive feeling how I felt at the beginning of November for 6 entire months, I can say that with certainty. I know that I'm "in for the long haul". But so far the only symptoms that I have are the mental ones, and I've been fortunate enough not to experience any physical symptoms with the exception of pretty constant fatigue. Although, I would gladly trade 50 physical symptoms if the anxiety/depression would hit the road. I'm sorry to hear that you are still struggling so much, how long did you taper? I fully believe that the reason that I'm still struggling with extreme mental symptoms is because I C/T and I didn't taper, but at the time I had NO idea that tapering was necessary. But it's too late in the game for me to consider reinstatement. I think that I'm looking at around another year of this crap. From what I've read it's VERY unusual for someone to be in withdrawal for years unless they were a long time user. 

[Evoldnahturt]

My biggest concern once I started learning about this was figuring out why some people get worse seemingly out of nowhere and take many years to heal.  It seems like in some of those cases, they didn't understand what they were doing wrong, but would happen to mention it in a post as though that was unrelated to the problems they were currently experiencing.  Others claimed to be doing everything right and some of these people seemed to demonstrate an understanding of the lifestyle changes that were necessary to allow their bodies to heal.  I suspect that in the cases where people are doing the research to figure out how to treat this condition and are still getting sicker, they may inadvertently come into contact with chemicals that throw them off or they exercise a little too much one day or something similar that they have a difficult time linking to the progression of the condition.  Chemicals are all over the place, you can't avoid them.  We've dug up so much **** out of the ground and put it in everything.  I suspect that some people are so sensitive that it's a matter of time before they get too much contact with the wrong chemical.  It's probably more complicated than this, but this might be part of the explanation.  Nobody really knows for sure at this point, though.  All we have is anecdotal evidence and the evidence suggests that even in cases like yours, rowinghippy and Hellbutrin, people seem to eventually heal.  Typically in a year or two, but sometimes longer.  I have read of cases where people had seen no improvement and claimed that they one day woke up fully healed or healed over a relatively short period of time.  When I first found this community, I spent all of my free time for several months reading stories and posts so that I could recognize patterns and gain an understanding of what I could expect.  I do not regret the time I invested in this.  The truth is pretty scary, but not understanding what was happening to me was scarier.

[JoelRivard]

Wait, if there are not many success stories then how do we know what most doctors are saying isn't true?

All of my docs - therapy, pysch, PCP and suboxone doc all seem to insist that since I still have some issues with anxiety/depression (not too bad but at times it's a pain in the ass) and I've been off venlaflaxine for 6 months that it is NOT protracted withdrawl but that I simply have a "mood disorder".

They are ALL telling me to try prozac since I used it as a bridge while tapering off Effexor and it seemed to work. At least the taper wasn't as bad as I though it would be. But now that I still notice some issues, while not nearly as bad as in Febuary, the fact that I still complain, they all keep saying to try prozac and that this extended withdrawal isn't real at all.

 

If only a small percentage of people who are struggling with extended withdrawal actually get better than how do we know that those people didn't have a mood disorder and got lucky and it went away by itself.

 

While the rest of us are thinking we are still healing but in reality have a disorder that needs medication?

I don't know weather to try Prozac or to keep waiting? I'm at 6 months.

What numbers are we basing things on? For example at 1 year out are most people doing much better or only a small amount? Or 2 years? If only a small percentage actually return to normal then wouldn't it be likely that protracted WD is more myth than real?

If I'm going to still notice mood problems for 6 months I'd rather just roll the dice with drugs. I mean, if I tried Prozac and it didn't help could I likely just stop using it and not get even worse?

My docs say people take that stuff like candy and never have any problems at all. They think I'm crazy just at how reluctant I am to try another SSRI drug because Effexor was a nightmare.

[Altostrata]

Joel, if you read the topics in the Introductions forum, you will see people gradually recovering from withdrawal syndrome. Their symptoms change. They are not all depressed.

 

If you want to believe you have to take drugs, that is your decision. Your doctors cannot look into your mind and see what's going on in there. Your condition is subjective and only you can decide if whatever you're doing is making it better or worse. We're not here to convince you to go one way or the other.

[Evoldnahturt]

Joel, I think you should spend a lot of time reading stories.  That's what convinced me.  It's possible you might not be sick enough yet to notice many similarities between their stories and what you've been experiencing.  If you're not convinced, keep listening to doctors and come back to read more stories as your condition progresses.  Also, if what you're experiencing isn't withdrawal syndrome, that doesn't mean drugs are the answer.  Most chronic health issues can be cured through lifestyle changes.  Even science is now begrudgingly admitting that mental health issues can be caused and cured by diet.  Cut out grains, dairy, and added sugar, exercise, stop adding new drugs and very slowly taper off of whatever you're on, don't have sex or jack off often, drink lots of water, get lots of sleep, etc.  Basically just get healthy.  You have to get deep with this stuff to heal yourself.  Most people don't want to treat their condition properly so they pop pills and make things worse.  It's up to you whether you want to postpone hell or be uncomfortable now to achieve happiness later.

[potions]

 

 

On 5/15/2018 at 4:11 PM, JoelRivard said:

Wait, if there are not many success stories then how do we know what most doctors are saying isn't true?

All of my docs - therapy, pysch, PCP and suboxone doc all seem to insist that since I still have some issues with anxiety/depression (not too bad but at times it's a pain in the ass) and I've been off venlaflaxine for 6 months that it is NOT protracted withdrawl but that I simply have a "mood disorder".

They are ALL telling me to try prozac since I used it as a bridge while tapering off Effexor and it seemed to work. At least the taper wasn't as bad as I though it would be. But now that I still notice some issues, while not nearly as bad as in Febuary, the fact that I still complain, they all keep saying to try prozac and that this extended withdrawal isn't real at all.

 

If only a small percentage of people who are struggling with extended withdrawal actually get better than how do we know that those people didn't have a mood disorder and got lucky and it went away by itself.

 

While the rest of us are thinking we are still healing but in reality have a disorder that needs medication?

I don't know weather to try Prozac or to keep waiting? I'm at 6 months.

What numbers are we basing things on? For example at 1 year out are most people doing much better or only a small amount? Or 2 years? If only a small percentage actually return to normal then wouldn't it be likely that protracted WD is more myth than real?

If I'm going to still notice mood problems for 6 months I'd rather just roll the dice with drugs. I mean, if I tried Prozac and it didn't help could I likely just stop using it and not get even worse?

My docs say people take that stuff like candy and never have any problems at all. They think I'm crazy just at how reluctant I am to try another SSRI drug because Effexor was a nightmare.

Joel, I never had the issues I have now before I went on those horrendous, damaging pills (SSRIs), so I know that they are not “me” or caused by any “mental illness” I may have. They are caused by my brain having adapted to being on the pills

to accomodate the effects of the drug. Prozac poop out? The Prozac pill is always he same, it doesn’t poop out. It’s the brain that changes.

 

The pills changed my brain architecture, burned out my serotonin receptors, and messed up my nervous system. How do I know? These symptoms are so bizarre and different from what I’ve ever experienced before that I know they are not caused by my personality and *definitely* not caused by any mental “illnesses” I may have (which was a term coined while psychiatric drugs were being developed. People throughout history have had different opinions of people who have behavioral or emotional abnormalities. At one point they called them holy fools in Russia. At one point they were feared and tortured. Now, we call them mental “patients” and treat them with these horrible pills. What’s next?)

 

If you think this is you and not the damage caused by the pills, consider that the pills change your brain. With ssris in particular, the brain adapts to the constant flooding of serotonin by making the receptors less sensitive to the serotonin over time. So, if people don’t heal from this, that means that for some reason that damage (the receptor downregulation) does not go back to normal or some epigenetic change takes place that does not switch back in some people (as may be the case in people with PSSD who have numb genitals years after coming off the meds, sometimes decades, which would mean that long term epigenetic change takes place. If anyone has ever had their genitals feel like a slab of meat *before* taking any medications such as these, let us know.)

 

The brain changes in response to the horrendous damage these pills do. If you wish to call yourself mentally ill and continue damaging yourself with those *****, go for it. That is your own decision

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Songbird
masked expletive

[potions]

To add: brain injuries can sometimes be permanent. If a stroke victim is not the same as before and never heals, does that mean his symptoms are not caused by the stroke? No. Same with lobotomies. Doctors used to cut the brain which caused permanent personality changes and zombified people. Because that doesn’t improve over time, does that mean it’s the person’s “mental illness” and not caused by the lobotomy? No.

[JoelRivard]

19 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Joel, if you read the topics in the Introductions forum, you will see people gradually recovering from withdrawal syndrome. Their symptoms change. They are not all depressed.

 

If you want to believe you have to take drugs, that is your decision. Your doctors cannot look into your mind and see what's going on in there. Your condition is subjective and only you can decide if whatever you're doing is making it better or worse. We're not here to convince you to go one way or the other.

I'm just asking questions.

I get that there are different stories, I have read them but the name of the thread is "why-arent-there-very-many-success-stories" so it's that stance that I'm asking the question from.

So you're saying that the thread title is not accurate and there are in fact many success stories?

[Madeleine]

7 minutes ago, JoelRivard said:

I'm just asking questions.

I get that there are different stories, I have read them but the name of the thread is "why-arent-there-very-many-success-stories" so it's that stance that I'm asking the question from.

So you're saying that the thread title is not accurate and there are in fact many success stories?

I think one of the reasons there aren't more success stories is because once people are feeling well they don't want to come here and be reminded of their misery.

 

I agree with Evanhold that it's important to work on healing oneself with lifestyle choices such as diet and exercise. But, I think often there is more to it:  if someone is suffering from mental health issues such as anxiety and depression, it's important to figure out what it is in one's thinking/lifestyle, etc. that has contributed to one's condition and to deal with and solve those root causes with other non-drug treatments such a cognitive behavioural therapy.  

[JoelRivard]

19 hours ago, Evoldnahturt said:

Joel, I think you should spend a lot of time reading stories.  That's what convinced me.  It's possible you might not be sick enough yet to notice many similarities between their stories and what you've been experiencing.  If you're not convinced, keep listening to doctors and come back to read more stories as your condition progresses.  Also, if what you're experiencing isn't withdrawal syndrome, that doesn't mean drugs are the answer.  Most chronic health issues can be cured through lifestyle changes.  Even science is now begrudgingly admitting that mental health issues can be caused and cured by diet.  Cut out grains, dairy, and added sugar, exercise, stop adding new drugs and very slowly taper off of whatever you're on, don't have sex or jack off often, drink lots of water, get lots of sleep, etc.  Basically just get healthy.  You have to get deep with this stuff to heal yourself.  Most people don't want to treat their condition properly so they pop pills and make things worse.  It's up to you whether you want to postpone hell or be uncomfortable now to achieve happiness later.

Yes I have been reading stories but again I'm just asking questions. The title of the thread is about there being a lack of success stories, are we just to ignore evidence against the idea of protracted WD and only look at evidence for it? Because yes there are positive stories, but then there is the thread title right there.

 

Regarding WD  I took over 1 year off from training and eating good then took 18 months of training and eating excellent, got shredded, have abs, cardio, am well built, eat lean protein, good carbs, healthy mix of fats, tons of vegtables, water, zero sugar, and I am glad to be in shape again. But it didn't help with the venlaflaxine WD at all.

Getting healthy is a good hobby and positive for many reasons and I know it does do wonders for brain chemistry but it really did nothing during my worst WD. In fact during my achey 6 weeks I had to stop training and it made no difference.

I recommend a healthy lifestyle I just can't say it will help with WD. It didn't do much for my state while on efexxor either. I took a winter off then got back into things and I struggled about the same with side-effects (low mood, some anxiety). Getting off the drug is the main thing.

I seem to be in a 3rd stage of WD which brings mild anxiety. Very annoying.

[JoelRivard]

7 hours ago, potions said:

 

 

Joel, I never had the issues I have now before I went on those horrendous, damaging pills (SSRIs), so I know that they are not “me” or caused by any “mental illness” I may have. They are caused by my brain having adapted to being on the pills

to accomodate the effects of the drug. Prozac poop out? The Prozac pill is always he same, it doesn’t poop out. It’s the brain that changes.

 

The pills changed my brain architecture, burned out my serotonin receptors, and messed up my nervous system. How do I know? These symptoms are so bizarre and different from what I’ve ever experienced before that I know they are not caused by my personality and *definitely* not caused by any mental “illnesses” I may have (which was a term coined while psychiatric drugs were being developed. People throughout history have had different opinions of people who have behavioral or emotional abnormalities. At one point they called them holy fools in Russia. At one point they were feared and tortured. Now, we call them mental “patients” and treat them with these horrible pills. What’s next?)

 

If you think this is you and not the damage caused by the pills, consider that the pills change your brain. With ssris in particular, the brain adapts to the constant flooding of serotonin by making the receptors less sensitive to the serotonin over time. So, if people don’t heal from this, that means that for some reason that damage (the receptor downregulation) does not go back to normal or some epigenetic change takes place that does not switch back in some people (as may be the case in people with PSSD who have numb genitals years after coming off the meds, sometimes decades, which would mean that long term epigenetic change takes place. If anyone has ever had their genitals feel like a slab of meat *before* taking any medications such as these, let us know.)

 

The brain changes in response to the horrendous damage these pills do. If you wish to call yourself mentally ill and continue damaging yourself with those shits, go for it. That is your own decision

 

I get that. I'm just asking questions based on the thread title.

I'm trying to weigh evidence on both sides. My head brain doc at the suboxone clinic recently told me there is no chance that I'm still in WD after 6 months.

But then 4 weeks later showed me an article from the NY times that said a small percentage of people do suffer from extended WD?

Messes with my head.

But he still insists that prozac would alleviate my symptoms. I just don't know?

[JoelRivard]

7 minutes ago, Madeleine said:

I think one of the reasons there aren't more success stories is because once people are feeling well they don't want to come here and be reminded of their misery.

 

I agree with Evanhold that it's important to work on healing oneself with lifestyle choices such as diet and exercise. But, I think often there is more to it:  if someone is suffering from mental health issues such as anxiety and depression, it's important to figure out what it is in one's thinking/lifestyle, etc. that has contributed to one's condition and to deal with and solve those root causes with other non-drug treatments such a cognitive behavioural therapy.  

I'm pretty sure that I'm still recovering from 10 years of Effexor and I agree that extended WD is a strong possibility.

Maybe people don't come back here when they are feeling better, sure. But can you see how that right there could also be a form of cognative bias? You are making up a reason that supports your idea.

I'm just trying to look at both sides. It's confusing when every professional tells me there is no such thing as protracted WD?? The doctors think all the stories are just anecdotal evidence that is misguided?

[potions]

 

13 minutes ago, JoelRivard said:

I get that. I'm just asking questions based on the thread title.

I'm trying to weigh evidence on both sides. My head brain doc at the suboxone clinic recently told me there is no chance that I'm still in WD after 6 months.

But then 4 weeks later showed me an article from the NY times that said a small percentage of people do suffer from extended WD?

Messes with my head.

But he still insists that prozac would alleviate my symptoms. I just don't know?

Your head doc is wrong. Look all over this forum and you’ll find that most people are still suffering with severe withdrawal symptoms at 6 months off. That’s the early days. And there’s no evidence to weigh. The truth is that the pills were created for profit and are all scams. Multiple studies show they work no better than placebos, but that’s not what brainwashed doctors (who aren’t educated about withdrawal at all) are told. Also, from what I’ve read on here, reinstating after 6 months (especially at a standard dose which is too high for those of us in wd with sensitive nervous systems), is a bad bad idea. I’ve read of people who did that that far off and had horrible adverse reactions to it, making their symtpoms much, much worse and prolonging them. I think at this point it’s too late to reinstate and definitely too late to reinstate at a standard dose. But I am not a mod or a doctor, I’m just advising you based on what I’ve read on this site. I also believe that over time people get better and symptoms become less severe over time. I’d hang on and wait for the wd symptoms to get easier. They will.

[Psvt]

On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 3:41 PM, Evoldnahturt said:

"Is this my life now?  Am I going to have to commit suicide?". 

 

This ^^^^^.

 

Hard to push through!

[Evoldnahturt]

These doctors are basing their opinions on research that's been largely corrupted.  The research says drugs are the answer for everything because drug companies are funding the research.  Most of the opinions you'll read here are unbiased.  We don't stand to gain a profit from lying to each other.  We're just trying to figure out wtf is going on.  The people that do continue to report their status over the years usually seem to heal over time.  I didn't keep track, but it seemed as though roughly 75% of the cases bad enough to make it here improved over time.  The ones that didn't either acknowledged that they did something stupid to screw themselves up, casually mentioned it in a post as though it was unrelated to their relapse, or didn't give us any indication as to why they relapsed or haven't improved.  I can't say I know for sure what's going on with those people, but after reading a lot of stories, it seems that if you're careful and do what you're supposed to do, your odds of recovery are good.  I believe most people in that last category either did something stupid and didn't tell us, were exposed to something random that they happened to have a really nasty reaction to, or are so sick it's going to take them much longer to recover than it will for many of us.  Some people may be sensitive enough that they just can't stay away from chemicals long enough to heal.  Again, I think for most (but not all) of us, the results are largely in our hands.  I suspect most people that develop this condition never even find the community.  We just see the worst cases, and even most of these people seem to heal over time.  The more time a person spends on this forum, the more likely their condition is unusually acute and chronic.  They aren't necessarily an example of what usually happens to people with this condition.

[Psvt]

20 minutes ago, Evoldnahturt said:

These doctors are basing their opinions on research that's been largely corrupted.  The research says drugs are the answer for everything because drug companies are funding the research.

 

AND

 

20 minutes ago, Evoldnahturt said:

I suspect most people that develop this condition never even find the community.

 

On point!

[Evoldnahturt]

My dad, uncle, and a friend of mine developed this condition.  My dad and uncle died of other, unrelated health issues shortly after and I never understood what the neurological stuff was about until it started happening to me.  They both kept going to different doctors and the doctors didn't understand what was going on.  My dad was actually a surgeon with a lot of connections and he couldn't find anyone that could help.  However, it also took him a while to figure out that part of his problem was leukemia and liver/kidney failure, which was surprising to me at the time.  Doctors aren't as capable of making diagnoses or effectively prescribing treatment as most people assume.  My point is, none of these people ever found the community.  Not even my friend who I've been begging to come here and learn about what's going on with her.  We've been conditioned to trust systems that want to rape us.

[Hellbutrin]

1 hour ago, Evoldnahturt said:

These doctors are basing their opinions on research that's been largely corrupted.  The research says drugs are the answer for everything because drug companies are funding the research.  Most of the opinions you'll read here are unbiased.  We don't stand to gain a profit from lying to each other.  We're just trying to figure out wtf is going on.  The people that do continue to report their status over the years usually seem to heal over time.  I didn't keep track, but it seemed as though roughly 75% of the cases bad enough to make it here improved over time.  The ones that didn't either acknowledged that they did something stupid to screw themselves up, casually mentioned it in a post as though it was unrelated to their relapse, or didn't give us any indication as to why they relapsed or haven't improved.  I can't say I know for sure what's going on with those people, but after reading a lot of stories, it seems that if you're careful and do what you're supposed to do, your odds of recovery are good.  I believe most people in that last category either did something stupid and didn't tell us, were exposed to something random that they happened to have a really nasty reaction to, or are so sick it's going to take them much longer to recover than it will for many of us.  Some people may be sensitive enough that they just can't stay away from chemicals long enough to heal.  Again, I think for most (but not all) of us, the results are largely in our hands.  I suspect most people that develop this condition never even find the community.  We just see the worst cases, and even most of these people seem to heal over time.  The more time a person spends on this forum, the more likely their condition is unusually acute and chronic.  They aren't necessarily an example of what usually happens to people with this condition.

I really appreciate your stance on recovery. I’m 10 months out from a C/T and I’m in the middle of a panicky episode because of a dr visit I had today. My doctor flat out told me there is a potential possibility that I might have done some permanent damage to my brain. He also told me that because my periods have stopped entirely that there is an indication that I might have damaged my pituitary gland, and that is apparently difficult to reverse. I do truly hope that I haven’t done irreversible harm to myself by taking the medications in the first place. 

 

Needless to say, I really needed to see this reassurance today.

[Evoldnahturt]

There are a lot of things that doctors believe or have believed are irreversible.  Heart disease, cancer, tooth enamel erosion, and many other health issues have been observed to have reversed in cases where lifestyle changes were made.  Maybe not in every case, but much of the time the damage that we do can largely be reversed or kept from progressing (or at least slowed down) if we dig our heels in and make the necessary changes.  My impression has been that in most cases, full or almost full recovery from most chronic diseases that are lifestyle-related may be likely if you really get serious about getting healthy.  Our bodies know what to do once we provide an environment in which it can heal itself.  It's really amazing how well it can perform this function.  It doesn't make fiscal sense for researchers to publish studies that suggest this when their funding is coming from a pharmaceutical company.  You can make a lot more money by keeping people sick and dependent on life-long treatment than you can by telling them to eat a salad.

[ProzacWasCreatedBySatan1]

18 minutes ago, Hellbutrin said:

I really appreciate your stance on recovery. I’m 10 months out from a C/T and I’m in the middle of a panicky episode because of a dr visit I had today. My doctor flat out told me there is a potential possibility that I might have done some permanent damage to my brain. He also told me that because my periods have stopped entirely that there is an indication that I might have damaged my pituitary gland, and that is apparently difficult to reverse. I do truly hope that I haven’t done irreversible harm to myself by taking the medications in the first place. 

 

Needless to say, I really needed to see this reassurance today.

 

When I was 10 months out from my cold turkey, I literally had a constant rumination that I was permanently damaged every single day, and I feared that I would be a depersonalized mess for the rest of my life. That I would never have a day in my life worth actually living. 10 months was when I got slammed with the worst symptoms. I would say they were than acute withdrawal, because my body was tired of fighting. I was basically bed ridden most days, twitching around, and I would go unconscious after eating any meal because my histamine issues were so bad. 2 years off now I consider myself 80% of the way there. No more depersonalization or crazy disconnected from reality panic attacks. I work full time (from home) and all I have left are migraines from my job because I work on the computer... Which are getting better, and some exercise sensitivities. Which aren’t too bad. I still go to the gym 4 times a week. I hope this helps.

[Hellbutrin]

10 hours ago, ProzacWasCreatedBySatan1 said:

 

When I was 10 months out from my cold turkey, I literally had a constant rumination that I was permanently damaged every single day, and I feared that I would be a depersonalized mess for the rest of my life. That I would never have a day in my life worth actually living. 10 months was when I got slammed with the worst symptoms. I would say they were than acute withdrawal, because my body was tired of fighting. I was basically bed ridden most days, twitching around, and I would go unconscious after eating any meal because my histamine issues were so bad. 2 years off now I consider myself 80% of the way there. No more depersonalization or crazy disconnected from reality panic attacks. I work full time (from home) and all I have left are migraines from my job because I work on the computer... Which are getting better, and some exercise sensitivities. Which aren’t too bad. I still go to the gym 4 times a week. I hope this helps.

Thank you so much, this does really help. Did you have anhedonia and lack of positive feelings as well? When would you say that the DP/DR started to go away for you?

[Altostrata]

JoelRivard, it's hard enough to help people go off psychiatric drugs without having to deal with a site member who's contentious for the fun of it.

 

Please post questions about your own particular condition in your Introductions topic. I am sorry fate did not hand you a faster recovery.

[powerback]

17 hours ago, JoelRivard said:

I'm pretty sure that I'm still recovering from 10 years of Effexor and I agree that extended WD is a strong possibility.

Maybe people don't come back here when they are feeling better, sure. But can you see how that right there could also be a form of cognative bias? You are making up a reason that supports your idea.

I'm just trying to look at both sides. It's confusing when every professional tells me there is no such thing as protracted WD?? The doctors think all the stories are just anecdotal evidence that is misguided?

Hi JR welcome to SA ,you ask valid questions .we live in a society that bows to authority and I've done this most my life but the last 2 years or more I've stopped .in medical school doctors are trained for a few hours on nutrition .science has caught up with most of these doctors training ,the fact that  there profession has a saying says a lot "Iatrogenic illness" .There's one ex GP from my home country of Ireland called Terry lynch google him .he couldn't look at he's patience in the face anymore ,there is a lot more GPs waking up the madness of meds than you think .psychiatry is probably one of the only "professions" that don't even scan or look at what they are trying to treat .we have a broken leg they x-ray it .

I'm not  disagreeing with anything you exactly say  but its an extremely complex issue .

 

I challenged my doctor on a lot of issues around meds and he got extremely defensive at times ,I challenged he's authority and  sensibilities ,they are not used to this .I believe there altruism is based in the correct place but the reality is very different .there was a statistic out last year that put the western world behind lower economic country's in the aspect of mental well being .the arrogance of the western world to think we have all the answers is shocking .we were not built to live under the pressures society has developed .  

 

If I was a sales man I'm going to push the benefits of my product to you .this is consumerism/capitalism .its a fact  drug reps dictate what ever med is coming from Big pharma and government lobbyists will get there issue pushed forward. The likes of all us are the drug trials because they get there drugs passed on very little evidence or time    .we simply do not live in democracy's like its portrayed and think we do .

 

Now I will be a little biased because I never wanted to end my life until I started to come off this medication ,it creates its own homeostasis in the brain. now I or others mite be more sensitive or have predisposition to the harms of these drugs but they've no way of knowing until its too late .in the future they mite ,I think there working on ways to test .but I've only heard anecdotal  articles on that .

 

Keep reading your body and become the expert on your body ,I don't know your age but we live in a time with extraordinary access to information so lap all this up  and never stop learning .

 

You've come to SA for a reason and I hope you find the help you need .

I know this mite seem like a rant to you but its just a tiny glimpse into how complex this issue is .

Take care .

[ProzacWasCreatedBySatan1]

On 5/16/2018 at 7:58 AM, Hellbutrin said:

Thank you so much, this does really help. Did you have anhedonia and lack of positive feelings as well? When would you say that the DP/DR started to go away for you?

 

At about the 11/2 year mark. I still get some flashes of it, but it’s usually correlated with working overtime on my computer. I worked 48 hours last week, and felt pretty crummy. It’s really not all that bad when you know it’s not here to stay, and you will be alright when you wake up. I remember when it was every day though, and it was nothing short of torture. I compared it to being waterboarded all day, and trying to hold a straight face like nothing is wrong. I promise it does get better. I have a really messy history, and even I am improving