Dude: Introduction and question/s

[Dude]

Hi there

 

I came across this site about six or seven years ago (while I was going through the early stages of cold turkey drug withdrawal) but never signed up for personal reasons. I've now decided to do so because I've a few questions I have so far not been able to find the answer to. I was on antidepressants (Effexor, Lexapro) for a total of five and a half years and also on some other drugs for the last one and a half (of those five and a half years). This was between 2005 and 2010. During that time I had tried to come off the drugs several times cold turkey, having been told by my former practitioner that they were non-addictive (of course...).

 

After several such attempts to come off them, I decided enough was enough and quit again in 2010 thinking I would just have to tough things out 'til I was back to normal. Not having known much about psychiatric drugs back then, I reckoned it might even take about six months or so (thinking that was a long time) but I was determined to bite through. Three quarters of a year later (in spring 2011) things hadn't improved. I had been suffering from the most severe withdrawal symptoms that most of you are probably familiar with, by the way, and could barely leave the house (I could list all those symptoms in detail, of course - e.g. severe cognitive impairment, memory loss, extreme anxiety, photosensitivity etc. etc. - but you've heard it all before, so I'll spare you the rest of the details). So I then started researching psychiatric drugs online (wearing my sunglasses, of course, and freaked out of my skull, as always...) and discovered that one needed to taper off slowly, especially if one has been on them for years. So I tried to reinstate the antidepressant I had been on last.

 

Unfortunately, that couldn't be done because I'd developed a nasty case of ssri hypersensitivity (which resulted, for example, in akathisia and dyskinesia whenever I tried to take the drug). I tried again with half the original dose, then with a quarter and even with an eighth but it wasn't working. So, I had the pleasure of going through cold turkey withdrawal (yippee!!!!). Then, in late 2011, I had been talking to Ann Blake Tracey (who some of you might know) and she recommended I give Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy a go. So I decided to go to Dublin, Ireland (where I'm originally from) because they had a center for it there. But in order to be able to travel, I had to take a tiny dose of Lexapro, despite my hypersensitivity. I did so (with the to be expected consequences) and had some brief relief from the withdrawal symptoms which then enabled me to travel. A few days later I went back into severe withdrawal. Nonetheless, I underwent "HBOT" treatment for several months while in Ireland but, unfortunately, only had a minor improvement of my condition (approx. 20-30%). Still it was better than nothing and it allowed me to function slightly better once I was back home (somewhere else in Europe) even though I was nowhere near the way I was beforehand.

 

Anyway, I've been in recovery every since and now, six years after my last exposure to those damn drugs, I'm still suffering from protracted withdrawal symptoms, including quite a bit of cognitive impairment, anxiety and other symptoms. And this even though I've tried all sorts of other treatments and had also been taking "Point of Returns" nutraceuticals for quite some time (which did nothing for me...). I wish I could tell you all that I've completely recovered and that all you need to do is to hang in there (and yes, I'm familiar with the whole "waves & windows" concept). But so far that has not been the case (at least not for me) and my life is now an absolute mess. Things are so bad right now that I'm seriously contemplating reinstating the antidepressant I had last been on, even if I'm risking permanent dyskinesia and other problems by doing so.

 

Now, if I were to do that (which I haven't decided yet), I would start by reinstating the drug at an extremely low dose, then tapering up until stable and then tapering off again very, very slowly (as you can all probably imagine). And I would do so by either using a so-called compound prescription (perhaps using micrograms at first, if that's possible) or a liquid version of Lexapro (which exists over here).

 

You might now think, by the way, that I'm about to ask for advice on whether or not to go ahead with this plan. And to be honest, that was indeed my original intention. But I've spent I good bit of time recently going through some of the posts on the topic of reinstatement and it seems as though no advice can be given in cases such as mine (if I'm not mistaken). So I guess it's a decision I'll have to make on my own. However, I do have one question. And that's whether or not anyone happened to know what the "dosage-equivalencies" of Lexapro in pill and in liquid form are. For example, how much would 10 mg of lexapro (pill form) be in millilitres (liquid form)? Because that's something I'd need to know before I start experimenting (if I do decide to go down that route after all).

 

Thanks for any pointers (and also for having gone to the trouble of reading this post).

 

Sincerely,

 

The Dude (from Switzerland)

 

 

[Altostrata]

Welcome, Dude.

 

I am very sorry you've been through this. What is your current daily

symptom pattern?

 

Many people do better with fish oil and magnesium supplements, see
http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/

http://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/15483-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/

 

A lot of people find them helpful. Try a little bit of one at a time to see how it affects you.

 

8 hours ago, Dude said:

But in order to be able to travel, I had to take a tiny dose of Lexapro, despite my hypersensitivity. I did so (with the to be expected consequences) and had some brief relief from the withdrawal symptoms which then enabled me to travel. A few days later I went back into severe withdrawal.

 

Do you happen to remember how much that tiny dose of Lexapro was? Did you take only one dose? What consequences did you have?

[Dude]

Hi Alto! 

 

[Personal note: this post has ended up becoming longer than originally intended. But it contains relevant information to my situation and I've still tried to keep it as brief as possible. However, I'll try to keep posts shorter in future.]

 

Thanks for your reply. It's kind of strange... Although I'm not in a good place right now, the simple fact that someone who knows about cold turkey & protracted withdrawal is "listening" to what I have to say and is taking this issue seriously has already made me feel a little bit better and given me a bit of hope. Because so far, even though some people (including my GP, for example) have shown some degree of sympathy, no-one has really understood the problem.

 

And as you probably know, I'm not really out to have people feel sorry for me (which is what most people who are unfamiliar with the problem seem to assume) but am simply looking for a solution to put an end to this pointless and needless suffering once and for all so that I can go back to living a more or less normal life someday (like everyone else here). And in that sense what I've been longing for all this time (apart from recovery) is not a bit of sympathy and a pat on the back (i.e. pity) but genuine understanding (and, perhaps, advice from someone who knows what they're talking about). So thanks for your support and the links you've sent me.

 

Anyway, to answer your question, back in 2012 I simply licked a 10 mg tablet of Lexapro two or three times. As silly as this may sound, it was actually suggested to me by Ann Blake Tracy based on my situation. The reason she suggested I give it a try (i.e. in order to obtain some for temporary relief from some of the withdrawal symptoms) was that she had had some patients who, at the end of their taper from antidepressants, did precisely that (i.e. licked a tablet once a day) in order to be able to deal with the last stages of drug cessation. Admittedly, it's not exactly a very precise method and I wouldn't suggest it to anyone else since you're better off using a digital scale. But hindsight is 20/20, as usual. And I don't hold it against Ann, by the way, because this was years ago and at the time she was simply doing the best she could for people who asked for her advice based on the knowledge she had. And, lastly, it was my own choice whether or not to do so (she didn't pressure me but simply made a suggestion at my request).

 

As for the reaction I had to trying to reinstate the drug in the past (whether it was a tiny or a larger dose), what would first happen is that my muscles would tighten in my whole body (I think my pupils also contracted) and I would have a case of akathisia (restlessness/inability to sit still, agitation, severe anger). Also, my body temperature would suddenly rise and I would be sweating bullets (which, if I'm not mistaken, might possibly have been serotonin syndrome in its early stages).  And then I would start having tremors and uncontrollable spasms throughout my whole body (head/neck, arms and legs, torso; in other words dyskinesia). And with each time I tried to reinstate the drug, the reaction became more and more severe (despite a reduction in the dose). The very last time I took a dose of Lexapro (i.e. the time when I licked a tablet), I also had diarrhea shortly after taking it and developed a genuine case of candidiasis (reluctantly confirmed by my GP at some point (can't remember the exact time it was diagnosed, to be honest)).

 

As for the withdrawal symptoms I've had since, well, I guess you could tick just about every single box on Joseph Glenmullens checklist. Since it includes such a large number of symptoms, which most people here are familiar with, I won't go into too much detail (as mentioned in my previous post). Also, in case anyone got the wrong impression from my previous post, I have to admit that there has been some gradual improvement over the years. And I reckon I'm somewhere between 50-70% percent recovered (that is, when I'm having a good day). Still, it seems to me as though the process of improvement has stalled/"plateaued" since, despite all the time that's gone by, I'm currently still suffering from a significant amount of cognitive impairment (slow thinking and memory problems), fluctuating anxiety levels and (as a result thereof) fluctuating degrees of derealization/depersonalization (though that too has improved a good bit), fluctuating degrees of photosensitivity, difficulty interacting with others, low stress tolerance, fatigue and anhedonia (i.e. emotionally rather flat/blunted and often depressed), to mention my main problems. I also suffer from a teeth grinding problem which itself has had numerous, unforeseen negative consequences (domino effect) but that's another (rather long) story, so I'll leave out the details.

 

As mentioned, the symptoms I still suffer from tend to fluctuate depending on my stress levels (as opposed to there being a discernible daily pattern). And these stress levels are currently quite high due to my current financial/occupational situation, which is why I'm even considering reinstating an antidepressant. I know most people here would say that if I've improved so much over the years (even if I still haven't completely recovered), then why not just wait a bit longer rather than risking everything just in order to be able to function better again? Well, that's easy to say when you're not in the situation I'm in. I'll spare you all the details of my current situation but suffice it to say, things aren't good and these problems would be a hell of a lot easier to deal with if I was back to normal (or, at least, more stable).

 

Also, all this time I've been wondering if I might, perhaps, have made a mistake by simply waiting for things to improve on their own as opposed to attempting to reinstate the drug in question (despite the risks). Psychologists have this concept called the "sunk cost fallacy", for example, which describes a situation whereby a person sticks to a certain problem-solving strategy that isn't working simply because they've invested so much time and energy into it so far. In other words, if they were to change strategy, they'd have to admit to having made a mistake by having stuck to their previous one for so long, which most people aren't prepared to do unless they have no other choice. And I'm now wondering whether or not I might have made exactly that mistake.

 

However, there is one difference when it comes to my situation, I think. I mean, it's not that I'm not willing to admit that my strategy so far may have been a mistake. I for one would have no problem admitting defeat (so to speak) and changing strategy (even though it would of course annoy me to think that I'd been wasting my time for so long). It's just that the only alternative I have (i.e. reinstating the drug) contains an incredible risk, namely the risk of ending up with permanent tardive dyskinesia (not to mention further brain damage in general and, perhaps, having to go through the whole cold turkey withdrawal nightmare from the beginning again if reinstating the drug didn't work). On the other hand, my current situation demands that I function "normally" in order to survive financially (the pressure has never been larger in that regard than right now). So it's a tough decision to make.

 

One last thing, though, that might also  be of some interest to you. You see, the reason I've been thinking that it might just be possible to reinstate the drug (if necessary and despite my previous experiences with trying to do so) is that although I'd also become hypersensitive towards anything that has an effect upon the nervous system (e.g. antihistamines, solvents, vitamins etc.), I recently seemed to have developed a tolerance toward a certain vitamin supplement I used to react to. This  supplement is a natural one called "Green Pastures High Vitamin Butter Oil" (which I've been taking because of my teeth which have been severely damaged by the teeth grinding problem, by the way). And when I first tried it a few years ago, I couldn't handle it.

 

At first I tried a normal dose (a teaspoon) but ended up with temporary dyskinesia (a mild version though). Then I tried just a few drops but also had a mild reaction to it. After those reactions, I left it be for about two years. Then, about a year ago, I decided to give it another try, starting at a very low dose (using a syringe). And believe it or not, starting with about 0.25 ml, I had no negative reaction to it and have been able to gradually increase the dose to 1.5 ml so far. However, if I push my luck and increase the dose by, say, 0.5 or even 1 ml abruptly, then I tend to have a mild reaction. But if I increase it by about 0.1 or 0.2 ml per week, my nervous system seems to be able to handle it. And this in turn has made me think that perhaps my nervous system is now stable enough to be able to handle a very, very small dose of an ssri, if necessary (around the microgramme level, to begin with). Granted, it would still be a gamble, but perhaps it would be a risk worth taking. Then again, maybe it'd end in a disaster...

 

Anyway, I don't know what I'm going to do and I reckon that for now it's probably best not to take any risks, despite my situation. But I still want to continue exploring my options, which is the main reason I'm here. In the meantime I'll start taking some magnesium again, as you suggested, and will also see if I can get some decent fish oil somewhere.

 

That's all for now.

 

Best regards,

 

Dude

 

(hm... Think I might want to come up with a better name... )

 

 

 

 

[mammaP]

Hi Dude, (thats a good name!).  Thank you for sharing your story.  I am sorryto see that you are still suffering after all this time but as you say, you ARE much better than you were and that is good.  

 

"And these stress levels are currently quite high due to my current financial/occupational situation, which is why I'm even considering reinstating an antidepressant."   

 

We have some excellent topics on coping with emotional problems and stress without resorting back to drugs. Many of us here started them very early on in life and never learned to manage stress or  emotional distress.  It's a huge learning curve and a challenge to resist going back into the drug mindset.  I would not use the supplement as a guage to whether you will tolerate pharmaceutical drugs, they are as different as honey and cyanide. I had a small coca cola recently and was not affected by it, but half a non drowsy antihistamine when I had a reaction to sheets in a holiday house  made me sick for 2 days! 

 

 I am glad to see that you are going to try magnesium, it is excellent and lots of us find it very helpful. Whenever I get the chance I soak in an epsom salt bath, it is very relaxing and great for stress. While I am in there I concentrate on the water ,( I love to feel my arms floating) and breathing, slowing down my breathing gradually by exaling longer than inhaling.  Thinking about my problems is strictly forbidden, being in the moment, in that bath is amazing.  Sadly I don't have a bathtub at home but do the same thing in bed, breathe and feel the comfort of my bed.  (Epsom salts are magnesium and very calming.) 

 

Times like this help to cope when back in reality, lower blood pressure and relax the mind. I feel much more relaxed just typing that, maybe I should type it more often!  I will get some links for you, you might have seen them already but they might be helpful for you. 

 

Dealing with emotional spirals. (this helped me A LOT) 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/13492-dealing-with-emotional-spirals/

Dealing with emotional symptoms.

http://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/1112-non-drug-techniques-to-cope-with-emotional-symptoms/

 

Let us know what you decide. 

 

[Dude]

Hi mammaP

 

Thanks for your comments. And thanks for going to the trouble of reading my (admittedly quite lengthy) posts. Also, thanks for the links, I'll check them out shortly. I had a look at one of them previously, by the way, and found some links to some interesting methods for reversing what is apparently referred to as "limbic kindling" by retraining the brain (which you've probably already heard of). And I think that might be worth a try someday (i.e. once I can afford it). But I'll have a look at all the other things connected to those links as well.

 

The epson salts bath sounds like a good idea too. Unfortunately, I don't have a bathtub in my current apartment, but if I ever move in the near future I'll make sure the next apartment has one and will give that a go too. Also, I guess you're right about being careful about jumping to conclusions based solely on my nervous system's ability to tolerate a certain vitamin supplement. Not quite in the same league as ssris, as you've quite rightly pointed out...

 

Lastly, I guess that when it comes down to it, I'm just having a lot of difficulty remaining patient at the moment and accepting things for how they are.  But I guess it's time to quit the self pity and pull myself together again. And for now that means continuing to work on improving my condition with alternative (i.e. drug free) methods such as have been suggested by you and Alto.

 

So, thanks again and best regards

 

El Duderino

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

Here are some topics which might be helpful:

 

Acceptance
Acceptance and Mindfulness

Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System
"Change the channel" -- dealing with cognitive symptoms
Change cognitive framing - Redirect - Another Way
Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) for anxiety, depression
Cognitive Behavior Therapy lessons

 

And some others that I have found:

 

Audio:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)
 

CBT Course:  An Introductory Self-Help Course in Cognitive Behaviour Therapy
 

Audio:  How to Recover from Anxiety - Dr Claire Weekes
 

Anxiety Stuff - all kinds of stuff about anxiety attacks and things that help ...

[Dude]

Hi ChessieCat

 

Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.

 

Best regards

[Shep]

Hi, Dude.

 

I came across a brilliant post you made today here on the non-drug coping skills section and copied it to another thread you may be interested in on SA, a thread for people using music as a non-drug coping strategy. 

 

Music Therapy / Music for Wellness and Healing

 

Thanks for adding such wonderful links. I use music therapy daily and especially when combined with mindfulness, find it a wonderful way of coping during protracted withdrawal. 

 

We also have a thread in the Off Topic section for adding music videos that you find helpful. 

 

Music - What helps you? Put it here.

 

Please add a signature so members and mods will know where you're at in your journey. 

 

Please add a signature.  Include drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements in the last 12-24 months. Also include supplements. This will help us give you the most accurate advice we can. 

• Any drugs and supplements prior to 24 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years. 
• Please use actual dates or approximate dates (mid-June, Late October) rather than relative time frames (last week, 3 months ago) 
• Spell out months, e.g. "October" or "Oct."; 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as Jan. 9, 2016 or Sept. 1, 2016. 
• Please leave out symptoms and diagnoses. 
• A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs. 
• This is a direct link to your signature:  Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

 

 

 

 

[Dude]

Hi Shep

 

Thanks for your message and for copying my post to the music therapy thread. The more people it reaches the better.

 

I've read your original post on that thread, by the way, and have to say that it contains a lot of great resources that I'll be going through. So thanks also for the link to the thread itself and to the other one you mentioned.

 

P.S.: I'll add a signature to my profile shortly (thanks for the tip and for the link).

 

 

 

 

[Shep]

Yes, the more people it reaches, the better. Please feel free to add to that thread with other music therapy articles and videos you find. 

 

Might help pass the time during protracted withdrawal. Not an easy ride, I know. 

[Dude]

Okay, will do. Thanks again.

[UnfoldingSky]

His Dudeness, I just dropped in to see what condition your condition was in....still have to answer you on the other thread but, music therapy?  I hope it's not the Eagles...

 

This works on so many levels though (at least, to describe withrawal that is...):

 

 

(You know what, in early withdrawal when I was super out of it, feeling worse than if I really had had too many white russians, one night I went to sleep and right before I woke up I dreamed this being sung... "Just woke up to see what condition my condition was in"...very Dude...)

 

Get back to you in a bit about the legal stuff when I'm done abiding...

 

US

[Dude]

The Eagles?! Don't get the Dude started on the Eagles, man! It's just about the only thing that can cause him to act very "un-dude".... Well, that and having a bunch of nihilists chasing after you, wanting to cut off your johnson...

 

Actually, they're not that bad. Well, okay, they do kinda suck (the Dude had a point). Liked your observation with regard to the Kenny Rogers song (from the time before he got into musical cheese...). The lyrics do seem quite fitting... So here they are! (altogether now!)

 

I woke up this morning with the sundown shining in
I found my mind in a brown paper bag within
I tripped on a cloud and fell-a eight miles high
I tore my mind on a jagged sky
I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in

Yeah, yeah, oh-yeah, what condition my condition was in

I pushed my soul in a deep dark hole and then I followed it in
I watched myself crawling out as I was a-crawling in
I got up so tight I couldn't unwind
I saw so much I broke my mind
I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in

Yeah, yeah, oh-yeah, what condition my condition was in

Someone painted April Fool in big black letters on a Dead End sign
I had my foot on the gas as I left the road and blew out my mind
Eight miles outta Memphis and I got no spare
Eight miles straight up downtown somewhere
I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in

I said I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in
Yeah
yeah
oh-yeah

 

 

 

Ah, the internet. What would we be without it? (and, of course, good ol' "copy - paste"...).

 

But as for music therapy being useless (if that's what you were getting at), well, you know, that's just, like, you're opinion, man...

 

Just kidding, buddy.

 

Anyway, talk to you again soon and looking forward to hearing about your shenanigans...

 

Duder

 

P.S.: Is this a... What day is this?

 

 

 

 

 

[Dude]

I'd just like to inform those I've had some contact with that I'm leaving the forum for personal reasons. Thank you to those who have helped me through some difficult times.

 

I wish everyone who is currently still suffering a good recovery.

 

Take care all of you.

 

Dude

[Dude]

I'm afraid I need some help figuring out how to delete my account. I'd appreciate it if a moderator could give me the right instructions as soon as possible. Thanks

[Dude]

Unless I'm mistaken, it doesn't seem possible to delete or deactivate one's account. If that's the case then I ask for it to be deactivated/deleted by a moderator.

 

Thanks

[Dude]

Also, I'd like to suggest that such a feature be included in the account settings for others who would like their account deactivated or deleted for whatever reasons.

 

Thanks again

[ChessieCat]

Hi Dude,

 

Thank you for letting us know that you will be taking a break from SA.  Please look after yourself.

 

Please see this topic:  if-you-wish-to-close-or-delete-your-account

 

[Dude]

Thanks Chessie. And thanks for the link. Take care.

 

Dude

[Dude]

I've read the content of that link and have to say that I'm a bit disappointed that accounts can't (or won't) be properly deleted or deactivated. I'm afraid I can't discuss the reasons for my leaving but I won't be coming back. I'm not suicidal or anything like that so there's nothing to be worried about.

 

If my account could still somehow be properly deactivated or deleted I'd appreciate it. I wouldn't have a problem with my previous content being visible though so deactivation would be fine by me. If that isn't an option then fair enough. I just won't be logging in anymore then.

 

Personally, I'm a bit sorry to have to leave, to be honest, because so far I haven't had a problem with this site (mostly anyway) and have experienced it as being mostly supportive and informative. But, as mentioned, I can't discuss the reasons for my leaving. I'd just like to say goodbye to anyone I've ever talked to here and thank those who have supported me and helped me get through a rough time over these last few months during which I've been a member. I appreciate your help very much.

 

So thanks again and all the best to all of you.

 

Take care and goodbye!

 

His Royal Dudeness

 

P.S.: May the Dude be with you!

[Rachellynn]

On 2/4/2018 at 10:00 AM, Dude said:

And as you probably know, I'm not really out to have people feel sorry for me (which is what most people who are unfamiliar with the problem seem to assume) but am simply looking for a solution to put an end to this pointless and needless suffering once and for all so that I can go back to living a more or less normal life someday (like everyone else here)

Not sure how long ago you wrote this but i was 17 when i went on AD’s - now that I’m on a super low dose and have been through CT, i have almost reverted back to my 17 year old self. I have to practice a lot of self care. A lot of meditation, self-massage, yoga when i am able, Ayurveda, bodywork, learning positive self talk. It’s not all about supplements and drugs. We should have been given those tools years ago and avoided this mess in the first place. But drugs and supplements and quick fixes don’t work. Mag and all the essential minerals are crucial but so is all the positive self care. That is what will pull me all the way out of this. I hope it helps you❤️