mariella: weaning off Cipramil / Celexa / citalopram

[mariella]

Hi everyone, I'm new here. Hoping to get a bit of support and knowledge about coming off anti depressants. I've been on anti depressants for 21yrs. Ive been on the same one for about 13yrs, but it just stopped working. The last two have been hell trying to get on the right one. I've had enough of the side effects!! They were making me worse. So I've decided to try without. 

Boy it's hell. The withdrawals are too unreal!! I didn't think it would be this bad. One good thing is I'm not feeling suicidal and I'm happy about that, and I want to keep it that way. And that is why I am here. 

Thankyou for listening 😊😊😊

[Gridley]

Hello, Mariella and welcome to SA,

 

I'm sorry you're having a difficult time.  I have a few questions.  I assume you're talking about the Cipramil that stopped working.  By "stopped working" what do you mean?  When you wrote "the last two have been hell trying to get on the right one," what do you mean?  When you say, "I've decided to try without," does that mean you quit the Cipramil cold turkey?  What are your current symptoms?

 

To give members the best information, we ask them to summarize their medication history in a signature -- drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements, in the last 12-24 months particularly.

• Any drugs prior to 24 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years. 
• Please use actual dates or approximate dates (mid-June, Late October) rather than relative time frames (last week, 3 months ago) 
• Spell out months, e.g. "October" or "Oct."; 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as Jan. 9, 2016 or Sept. 1, 2016. 
• Please leave out symptoms and diagnoses. 
• A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs. 
• Link to Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

Here is some excellent information on withdrawal:

What is withdrawal syndrome.

Glenmullen’s withdrawal symptom list.

 

When we take medications, the CNS (central nervous system) responds by making changes over the months and years we take the drug(s). When the medication is discontinued, the CNS has to undo all the changes it made. Rebuilding the neurotransmitter production and reactivating the receptor and transporter cells takes time -- during that rebuilding process symptoms occur.  Some people have found the information and explanations at these links helpful:

One theory of anti-depressant withdrawal syndrome

How your brain responds to psychiatric drugs - aka "Brain remodeling"

Youtube video, 4 minutes: Healing from antidepressants

 

The techniques in these links have helped many members deal with withdrawal:

The Dr. Claire Weekes Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms.

 

Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system. 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

Please research all supplements first and only add in one at a time and at a low dose in case you do experience problems. 

 

This is your introduction topic -- the place for you to ask questions, record symptoms, share your progress, and connect with other members of the SA community. I hope you'll find the information in the SA forums helpful for your situation. I'm sorry that you are in the position that you need the information, but I am glad that you found us.

 

 

 

 

 

[mariella]

Sorry for the late reply, Gridley

Yeah, it was the Cipramil that stopped working. The last two years after stopping Cipramil I have tried 3 other anti-depressants and its been hell.  I really believe i"ve become intolerant to AD"s, i can"t handle the side effects.  So I"ve decided to stop them and see how i go. i know i have tapered too quicklly, i"ve had a rough trot, who knows if thats what i"m feeling now because of the quick tapering.  I"ve gotten down to 2.5mg. I"m a bit terrified because i"ve been on AD"s for 22 years. 

I just have so many questions that i need answered and i don"t trust doctors. I do have a doctor that i regularly see but she has advised me wrongly. I am happy I found this site.

The dose i am on now is low but i have these symptoms like as if i am on 20mg. I just want to hurry it up but I know I can"t.

My main questions are where do I go from here.  How long do I stay on 2.5mg. And of course, can you get side effects with just 2.5mg.

 

thanks for listening and taking your time out to reply.

ps i hope its all a bit clearer now! My brain is just all over the place arrrggggghhhhh

[mammaP]

Hi Mariella, welcome from me too.  You have been on an awful lot of drugs over the years and your poor brain is trying to cope. Doctors believe that there is the right drug out there and often change from one drug to another but instead of finding the 'right' one, they cause chaos for your brain and nervous system.  

 

What happened when you went on to cipramil?  You are right that you will now be sensitive to drugs, that has happened to so many of us here. 

Can you tell us more about your symptoms? Side effects and withdrawal can be very similar so it is important to know the symptom pattern. We ask all our members to take notes on paper. I use an appointments diary, they are for professionals,  but work perfectly for us because every day has hourly or even quarter hourly 'appointment' blocks where you can log your symptoms, when you take the tablets and supplements. Also exercise etc. We can then work out if it is the side effects and how things change through the day. For now you would be best to stick with the 2.5. You need to stabilise but can only do that when you have a steady dose.  Quitting is not advisable, withdrawal can be so much worse than side effects, especially after so many years. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mariella]

Hi mammap, thankyou for your advice. 

My symptoms are electricity running through my body especially hands and feet. Brain fog, also its like I have amnesia in a sense that part of my brain is missing. I get palpations. And stomach problems. I'm severely constipated (sorry, too much info there), I know it has to do with my body not flowing easily, if that makes sense. I think of awful things and I go to the extreme and that's terrifying me. I try not to listen to my brain. 

I also still get brain zaps, but they are rare. I keep on waking through out the night and I have nightmares. I'm so fatigued. I've put on weight but I know it's from the medication, because my eating habits haven't changed. 

My anxiety levels are very high that I end up on a bad downer. I think that is because I don't have the energy levels to act out on my anxiety, meaning I don't get physical. 

Sorry if Im all over the place with my explanation, it's like I also forgot how to talk. 

I'm struggling the most with the numbness in my mind, it still feels like I'm being suppressed, I don't know if it's because I'm still taking the cipramil. I have read online that you still can get side effects with such a low dose. 

I get so desperate to just stop cold turkey because the thought that im still feeding myself this rotten pill makes me mad!! 

Thanks for listening 😊

 

[firepink]

Hi mariella - I don't have any advice as (a) I'm not familiar with Cipramil and (b) I'm new here, but I totally get that needing to take the meds makes you mad - I'm still going to need to get another prescription to be able to continue tapering slowly, and all I want to do is to just stop taking the darn things! I'm pretty sure the mods know what they're talking about with stabilizing and then easing off the pills super slowly, though.

 

While I have no advice to give out, I do have a near endless supply of virtual hugs. Here's one for you! {{hug!}} Hang in there.

[mariella]

hi firepink

thanks for taking out time to reply and especially for the hug!!!!   I"m so happy to be on board!! It"s terrible being alone in this. 

I hope you can get that prescription.

Sending you back a virtual hug {{firepink}}.

[mariella]

Really struggling, I don't know what I'm doing. Am I doing the right thing. My pain is killing me. My mental thoughts are to strong, I don't know what to do with them. I forget how to cope. 

I want to reach out but struggle so damn hard to. 

Reaching out to you all makes it's so much easier. 

Can I do it?????? 

Really could do with some reassuring words. I feel so damn alone!!!!! 

[xyz]

do you work out?

exercise, exercise.

[mariella]

Hi xyz, no I don't. I know i should. It's been on my mind a lot and I know it would do a lot of good, i just need to convince myself. Thanks for the advice😊

[xyz]

there are scientific evidences that exercise helps with drug withdrawal. they prescribe it in alcohol and opiate detox.

 

intense cardio promotes neurogenesis and facilitate neuroplasticity, so if you want these receptors to regrow back faster, then try to exercise.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/02/160208083606.htm

 

 

exercise also improves the mood as you already know by forcing your brain to produce more endorphin, but it also help regulate the reproductive hormones in your body and calm down the cortisol surges.

it also helps distract your mind from your obsessive thoughts. sometimes all we need to do is to shift gear and nothing better than forcing your mind to get back to the present moment and focus on your physical effort.

 

i meditate too, and i find that exercise can also be meditative.

 

i have insomnia and i feel like crap in the middle of the night, but after my morning run, i feel great.

i taper valium and it gives me all kind of muscle pain, but after running, the endorphin melts them away.

 

exercise is godsent.

[mariella]

Just wondering if 2.5mg of cipramil (celexa) is too small to get side effects. I've been on that dose for 7 weeks. 

[ChessieCat]

 

On 3/2/2018 at 5:48 AM, mammaP said:

Side effects and withdrawal can be very similar so it is important to know the symptom pattern.

 

You have made many changes in the last year, many of them in the last 6 months.

 

What you think are side effects may be withdrawal symptoms from having gone off Luvox, added to which you changed to Lexapro for what looks likes at least 2 months, which is enough time for the brain to adapt to the new drug.  If you are experiencing withdrawal symptoms from these 2 drugs, it is hard to know if any of what you are experiencing now is side effects from Cipramil.  It may be a combination of all of these.

 

On 3/2/2018 at 5:48 AM, mammaP said:

For now you would be best to stick with the 2.5. You need to stabilise but can only do that when you have a steady dose.  Quitting is not advisable, withdrawal can be so much worse than side effects, especially after so many years. 

 

As previously requested please keep notes on paper like the following example.  Sometimes this can help the mods work out what is happening.

 

Also see:  Keep it Simple, Slow and Stable

 

Keep notes on paper about your drug dosages and daily symptom pattern

 

A symptom pattern that occurs regularly over several days could mean the symptoms are from withdrawal, other adverse effects of drugs, or something else you do on a daily schedule.

 

In the course of discussion in your Introductions forum topic, you may be asked to keep notes on paper of your daily symptom pattern, including when you take your drugs, their dosages, and any symptoms.

 

What we need to see for every individual day over several days is:

- Time and dosage for drugs taken in morning
- Time and description of any symptoms in the morning
 
- Time and dosage for drugs taken in afternoon
- Time and description of any symptoms in the afternoon
 
- Time and dosage for drugs taken in evening
- Time and description of any symptoms in the evening
 
- Time and dosage for drugs taken in middle of the night
- Time and description of any symptoms in the middle of the night (such as waking)
 
And so forth. A diary, in chronological order, such as:
 
6 a.m. Woke and vomited
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Had diarrhea
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Stomachache
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Headache got worse
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke with headache

 

An appointments diary is perfect for this and can be bought at stationery stores. 

They have a page for each day with times for appointments which can be filled in with doses, symptoms etc as shown by Alto.

[Cheeky]

Hey mariella,

Welcome to the site, I too have been on antideprssants that long and just want to let you know your in a good place for help.

[mariella]

Thank you cheeky😊

[mariella]

This is so difficult, ChessieCat.  I have other things going on at the same time, menopause, cptsd and I really don't know what is what. For now two things are still the same, the confusion in my mind and  a deadness in my mind. It still feels like my brain is missing something. Weird, I know. Physically, I'm still fatigued. I think I will stay longer on the 2.5mg.

My doctor wants me to stop the cipramil completely, which I won't, but I feel uncomfortable doing it behind her back. She has helped me a lot. 

[mariella]

I hear you xyz! I'm gonna make it my goal, thank you 😊😊😊

[ChessieCat]

9 hours ago, mariella said:

My doctor wants me to stop the cipramil completely, which I won't, but I feel uncomfortable doing it behind her back. She has helped me a lot. 

 

You need to do what is right for you.  The doctor is an advisor but you don't have to take their advice.  The doctor isn't the one who is going to experiencing the issues if you stop the drug.

 

How do you talk to a doctor about tapering and withdrawal?

What should I expect from my doctor about withdrawal symptoms?

[Altostrata]

Hello, mariella. What time of day do you take Cipramil? Do your symptoms get worse at any particular time of day?

 

Please keep daily notes of your symptoms, when you take your drugs, and their dosages. We need this information.

[mariella]

Altostrata, I take them after dinner. There isn't a particular time of day that I can say that are worse. I just generally struggle with the way my brain struggles with my intense emotions and when I have too much to deal with at one time, I really feel the weakness in my brain and then it affects my body. 

I'm noticing exactly how much the anti depressants have masked my brain. 

Like I mentioned before I do have menopause and cptsd and I really don't know what is what but as time goes on of course I'm sure I'll be more aware. 

 

My mind is weak and that is what is troubling me the most to the point that I get terrified. 

I hope this makes sense to you. 

Thank you ☺️

[mariella]

Struggling bad with foggy brain and upset stomach. Trying so hard to not let it get to me. Am I doing the right thing???? Trying so hard to persevere ☹️ ☹️ ☹️☹️☹️☹️

[BloombieK]

Hi, I'm sorry you are going through a rough time. I can't see what meds or tapering progress your in.  Have you written a signature with your info? Maybe your tapering este is too gasto and need to slow down.  My first reduction was very hardware the first two weeks and then I stabilized.

[BloombieK]

Ment to write "you're tapering too fast"

[Frogie]

On April 22, 2018 at 2:03 AM, mariella said:

Struggling bad with foggy brain and upset stomach. Trying so hard to not let it get to me. Am I doing the right thing???? Trying so hard to persevere ☹️ ☹️ ☹️☹️☹️☹️

I'm not a mod or a dr. Just my opinion, you are tapering way too fast. I did the same thing and ended up having to updose to get stable. I'm the queen of nausea. I get it everytime I taper for a few days then it goes away. Walmart sells some stuff for nausea called Nauzene. It works really well and it's inexpensive.

 

I hope someone with more knowledge and experience can help you.

 

Take care,

Frogie xx

[Altostrata]

mariella, please put questions about your symptoms in this topic. We need to know your recent history to understand the symptoms.

 

What times of day do you get foggy brain and upset stomach? Please keep daily notes on paper about your symptoms, when you take your drugs, and their dosages.

 

How do you measure 2.5mg Ciprimil?

 

Is this the way you've tapered? When did the electrical feelings or brain zaps start?
 

Quote

 

December 20th 20mg Cipramil

2018 January 9th 15mg Cipramil, January 12th 10mg Cipramil 

January 20th 5mg Cipramil, February 4th 2.5mg

 

 

[mariella]

Hi frogie, I think it is from tapering too fast and from side effects, I'm still on 2.5mg. I also have gastritis, which makes things harder. I am on medication for my stomach, I just have to be patient. Thank you for your advice ☺️

[mariella]

10 hours ago, BloombieK said:

Hi, I'm sorry you are going through a rough time. I can't see what meds or tapering progress your in.  Have you written a signature with your info? Maybe your tapering este is too gasto and need to slow down.  My first reduction was very hardware the first two weeks and then I stabilized.

Yes I do have a signature Bloombiek. I jumped too fast from 20mg to 2.5 mg. I've been on 2.5mg for 9 weeks now. Don't want do my next taper for a least a couple more months. 

Thank you for your thoughts ☺️

[mariella]

Hi altostrata, I have foggy brain all day and upset stomach on a regular basis, I have gastritis and the cipramil is too strong for my stomach, it always has been. I constantly have electrical feelings and the brain zaps have diminished immensely, but I still get them roughly once a week. I am starting to dream again (side effect) and I wake up with full blown anxiety.  My gut instinct is saying that a lot of my symptoms are from side effects from the tablet. 

I cut a 10mg tablet in quarters to get my dose. 

I jumped from 20mg to 2.5mg within 6 weeks and 4 days. I've been on 2.5mg for 9 weeks now. You have made it clear to me that I need to journal, but I struggle with that. 

I don't remember times and dates before getting to this current dose. Some of the withdrawal symptoms are the same as complex post traumatic stress symptoms, for example depersonalisation and derealisation. 

It really is a complex situation because of the other issues I have. 

I really don't mean to make it complicated for you to help me out. 

Thank you 😊 

[mariella]

I'm preparing myself for my next taper. Im going to be making a solution, so I'm experimenting with a syringe, but it's a bit hard when I'm using only 2.5ml of water with 2.5mg cipramil. Is it alright to use 5ml water with 2.5mg tablet? 

[mariella]

started my next taper last night. just wanting confirmation that im doing it right.

i've diluted a 2.5mg tablet into 15mls of water and syringed my dose of 2.4mg. i'm a bit nervous about the whole thing!!!!!

 

[manymoretodays]

Hi mariella,

If you have 2.5 mg dissolved or swirled into 15 milleters.  Then 2.4 mg would be 14.4 millileters. 

millileters= mL so there is no confusion between mL and mg

milligrams=mg that's the important active ingrediant of your Cipramil

 

You want to take 14.4 mL's of your solution to get your 2.4 mg dose of Cipramil.

 

Did you cross over from your tablet to liquid solution?

That's what we recommend.

You should.

That might be best as the absorption is going to be a little different with the liquid and you'll minimize any further symptoms developing by doing this.

 

Stay put with your 2.5 mg dose until you have crossed over:

To cross over you would take:

3/4 of your dose using the tablet and 1/4 of the dose with your liquid for 3 days

then 1/2 of your dose using your tablet  and 1/2 liquid for 3 days

then 1/4 of your dose using the tablet and 3/4 liquid for 3 days

 

Then you could take the full 2.5 mg dose with your.......homemade solution for another week or so.

 

And then reduce the dose to 2.4 mg or 14.4 mL

Do you follow all that?

 

That should reduce your fear factor I hope.  As well as reducing W/D symptoms that might occur.  There is no rush to the finish line.  Some of your symptoms last reported in April may be W/D from all your previous changes.  With some side effects from the medication thrown in.  The foggy brain and anxiety are often due to W/D.  Try and go easy on yourself now.  You've already done some rapid changes since January.

Don't toss your solution if you have already made it.  Keep it in the fridge in a covered container.  If the container isn't amber so it resists light you can put it in a brown paper bag.

Your first 1/4 dose of liquid will only be 3.75 mL to equal .625 mg.

Your 3/4 dose from the tablet will be 1.9 mg

With cutting your tablet just try to get as close as you can and err on the side of rounding up if you need to........as far as the mg of active ingredient goes. It's going to be difficult as you are already using 1/4 tablets.  Try and just do some form of a cross over and then brief hold at the 2.5 mg dose at the very least.

 

I expect this might be a bit confusing but do your best.  It'll be worth it.

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

Edited June 26, 2018 by manymoretodays
additional narrative

[mariella]

hi manymoretodays, thankyou for replying. yes i am crossing over from tablet form to solution. they are too small to cut at that dose. i've been on 2.5mg for 5 mths now and my next taper dose is 2.4mg. does the mg and ml need to be the same?  

[manymoretodays]

No......the mg and mL are very different.

The mL is the  fluid part.  The mg or milligram represents your active ingredient of Cipramil.

 

So this is really important to understand.

The "cross over" that I mentioned above is the safest most harm free way that you could go from your tablet(or 1/4 tablet in your case) to the new homemade form.

 

You could stay at your 2.5 mg dose in the tablet form until you get the maths a bit more if you would like.

 

And I think you could try to "cross over" using 1/8 of your tablet and then take the other 1.25 mg with your liquid.  1/8 of your tablet would give you the other 1.25 mg to total up to your present dose of 2.5 mg.  Stay at the same dose and try that for 6 days and then switch over completely to your homemade solution.

 

Do you follow how I figured out that if you have 2.5mg of your tablet in 15mL of total fluid that 2.4 mg would then be contained in 14.4 mL of your solution?

I usually use a bit of algebra to figure it out which won't be helpful to explain in narrative.

 

1.25 mg of your liquid would be = to 7.5 mL of your liquid.

1.25 mg of your present 10 mg tablet would be 1/8 of the tab.

It might be best to try that combination for a whole week or more........before going all the way to liquid and definitely before you do any tapering.   So you would still be taking a total of 2.5 mg yet you would be adjusting slowly to the change in absorption, which is a good thing to do.

 

Even if you have been on 2.5mg for 5 months there is no sense to hurrying the last part of your tapering.  It could make W/D symptoms more difficult.  You've had 21 or 22 years of these medications and it takes time to readjust after that many changes.  Jumping down or off too quickly or not cautiously enough is just not a good idea.

 

I hope that helps your understanding.  Just be really consistent with how you do things for each dose as well.  The 1/8 of a tablet as well as how you measure and mix your homemade solution.

 

We might also consider just mixing the whole 10 mg tablet in water at some point later.  If you have access to getting more prescriptions as you need them.

 

Best,

mmt

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mariella]

The numbers confuse me manymoretodays. I didn't think that going straight from pill form to solution will be an issue. 

To make it easier I diluted a 10mg tablet into 10ml of water, I had a look at the video on making your own solution, and I will syringe out 2.4ml to take. 

[manymoretodays]

33 minutes ago, mariella said:

The numbers confuse me manymoretodays. I didn't think that going straight from pill form to solution will be an issue.

It might be.  Consider your fragile healing trellis.   Why not be kind to yourself now.  The numbers should be much easier now with a 1 mg per 1 mL solution.  Did you read what I wrote about storage of your homemade solution?  That's important too.

 

At the very least consider holding at your 2.5 mg dose for a couple of weeks.  The drop to 2.4mg isn't huge but you are in essence making 2 changes at the same time, not a great idea.......all things considered.  Could you at least consider doing 1.25 mg, with your now 10 mg per 10 ml solution. you can just take 1.25 ml of solution and 1/8 tablet to equal your present 2.5 mg dose.

 

There are going to be some differences in how you absorb the Cipramil, which could relate to some changing symptoms and further discomforts.  We'd rather see you err on the side of caution.  What have you got to lose by holding and gradually going to liquid BEFORE you taper?  A week or two of waiting perhaps.

We all want to rush to the finish line, believe me.........it's not worth it.  Often times all that results in is a return to another medication after a total melt down.  I don't know the Aussie term for that.   And you really are on the home stretch here now.

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/6632-the-rule-of-3kis-keep-it-simple-keep-it-slow-keep-it-stable/

 

And I'm glad you found the video!

 

Please keep us updated as well.  Thank you.

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

Edited June 26, 2018 by manymoretodays

[mariella]

I now know what you are trying to say about introducing liquid form. I don't know how to get 1/8 of a tablet though.