Fontman82: another desperate soul - citalopram withdrawal

[Fontman82]

Hello everyone, 

 

Another one joining the ranks of survivalists. I've been looking and reading hundreds of posts on this site for a few months now and I've finally decided to join the community. I've read a lot about people's experiences and suffering, which is not easy to read. So I guess I'll get into what brought me here.

 

It was in my late 20's I started suffering from crippling panic attacks and GAD, as well as having a low lingering depression due to always being anxious. I have no idea why all of a sudden I had my first panic attack,  I did smoke some weed in my early 20's, something I really regret and wish I had never done, but like SSRI use, I can't take back. I've heard that can cause people to suffer all kinds of mental disorders later in life.  I'm really not sure of what caused it. But I had it and finally after years went to the doctors when I was 30. They gave me the whole chemical imbalance explanation, said I have low serotonin and started me on 10mg of Citalopram, this within a month was increased to 20mg. I never knew about the dangers of these drugs, or withdrawal, Like everyone else, I was never warned other than stating I'll suffer some initial side effects whichvwill wear off after a few weeks.

 

I was on Citalopram 10mg for about a month before being boosted up to 20mg. The initial side effects were uncomfortable but did subside after about 3 weeks. I was on it about 6 years and to be honest, Placebo or not, I did help rid me of most of my anxiety, I still sometimes got anxious but it was greatly reduced. I was honestly quite happy,  I didn't feel like a zombie and I still had my emotions and life was pretty good. I could go to sleep relaxed and wake up relaxed, not the gripping a pillow mornings I had prior to the Citalopram. In fact I was doing too good which led to a bone headed decision I'm now paying for but that was not straight away. So I decided to just come off, yep, CT'd. I moved town and in the process ran out of Citalopram, this is before I knew about withdrawal and the dangers. Looking back I was actually incredibly lucky at first, for a few weeks I had head zaps and then, nothing. No anxiety returning, no anything. I felt normal like I hadn't come off anything. 7 months passed and all was well. But then I got a bad appraisal at work, something I had been working very hard on. I quickly spiralled into depression but not so much anxiety. It was there but manageable. I felt awful but just in a depressive way, I'm not sure it was a protracted withdrawal symptom or not as apart from feeling really depressed, there was no other symptoms.  But it felt bad enough for me to go see the doctors. This was in early December 2017. Now I want to blame the Doctor but I asked to be put back on Citalopram as it worked well before. I had no idea about what reinstatement was, or kindling effect, or withdrawal, any of that.  So They put me back on 10mg. That was 8 days of hell, shaking in the morning, nausea, restless leg heightened anxiety, my body jolting as I tried to sleep, insomnia, I felt highly agitated, I anxiety was so bad I was pacing around the house because i was just so uncomfortable. I called The doctor and they told me to stop the medication. I did, after about a month, the shaking stopped and the constant jolts, as well as the restless leg but the bad anxiety remained and the broken sleep insomnia. I also experienced pretty intense de-realization which thankfully has gone.

 

But some other symptoms developed and have persisted. 3 months on from the 8 days of Citalopram 10mg, I have the following symptoms:

 

High anxiety, but luckily no panic attacks

Insomnia, I normally have no trouble getting to sleep but I have trouble staying asleep. Although some days are better than others

Really bad brain frog, and slow cognition, which has been the most frightening symptom so far, when brain fog is bad, I can't remember details and I stumble over my words. This scares the hell out of me because online everybody says that's brain damage. I work in VFX Film, so it's absolutely devastating to my career, I find it hard to retain new information.

Depression, I'm sure this is because of my symptoms. 

Morning Anxiety, the worst, I'm gripping my pillow every morning.  

I'm sensitive to noise , like a heightened sensitivity

My brain feels light, like a weird buzzing lightheadedness

crying spells, I think mostly to the suffering, self pity, blaming myself

anger, mostly at myself, I have a wife and I can't believe she now has a husband who is not functional. That's the hardest part.

tinnitus which is just the icing on the cake

 

I've read a lot on this site, so I know about the sensitised nervous system, there is a lot to digest. I want to believe I'll get better but I read about Dr Stuart Shipko's views which pretty much states I'm screwed no matter how many years I hold onto the hope of recovery. i honestly wish I had never read that. I guess I feel fear, really badly, like, how am I going to live with this, I have no choice. 

 

I'm back to the doctors on Tuesday, they will probably try to get me back on an SSRI stating I didn't give it long enough for the side effects to subside.or to try another which is something I understand is a bad idea. The problem I have is, I don't know if those 8 days of side effects would have went, or did I not hang in long enough. I know I most likely will not be able to stabilise trying to go back but I've read waiting it out might not work either, so the choices aren't great. 

 

I think living with the emotional regret, and the fear of everything happening is the hardest to thing living with this. I know people will say, it get's better, this is a forum of hope, but I'm far off believing  that. I want to, but it's hard. I feel bad for my wife, we really are soulmates, only now her life partner is a broken shell of a man, that's what kills me. So that's it for now.

 

Thanks Everyone

 

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Dan998
added tags

[ChessieCat]

Hi fontman, and welcome to SA,

 

It's sound like you had a bad reaction to restarting the citalopram.  We have members here who have gone on and off and on and off a drug again and had no problems but have gone back on and are now having difficulties getting off.

 

21 minutes ago, Fontman82 said:

Really bad brain frog, and slow cognition, which has been the most frightening symptom so far, when brain fog is bad, I can't remember details and I stumble over my words.

 

I am doing a taper following SA's protocol and I have times were my cognition is slow, can't find words, couldn't do jigsaw, word or number puzzles.  I can also have times where I am unable to read and scan text. Other members have/had the same issues.  For me these are all starting to improve.

 

21 minutes ago, Fontman82 said:

I read about Dr Stuart Shipko's views which pretty much states I'm screwed no matter how many years I hold onto the hope of recovery.

 

Dr Shipko sees the the worst of the worst cases of psychiatric drug issues.  Patients who have been messed around and messed up by other doctors prescribing drug cocktails or switching drugs trying to find the "right one".

 

Success stories: Recovery from withdrawal

 

Please read these before you see your doctor:

 

How do you talk to a doctor about tapering and withdrawal?

What should I expect from my doctor about withdrawal symptoms?

 

If you are offered another drug, please let us know before taking it so we can offer our thoughts.  If you have reacted badly to one antidepressant  you may react badly to others.  What you brain needs is time to heal.  It's natural ability is to regain homeostasis or go back to factory settings.  Healing isn't linear:  Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

These might help you understand what is happening:

 

Brain Remodelling

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

 

The only supplements which SA recommends are Magnesium and Omega-3 Fish Oil.  Try a small amount one at a time to see how you react.

 

It is best to make only 1 change at a time.  It is also better not to start taking a complex vitamin because if you experience issues you will not know what exactly is causing it.  B vitamins can be stimulating especially B6.  hypersensitive-to-b-vitamin-or-b-vitamin-complex  If trying anything new, start with a small amount to see how you react and build up to the recommended amount.

 

If you drink alcohol and/or coffee you might want to consider reducing or eliminating these for the time being.  Some members find that overdoing exercise can exacerbate their symptoms.

 

Keep it Simple, Slow and Stable

 

Thank you for completing our drug signature.  However, it is very wordy and does not contain the information which we require.  Please follow this preferred format.  Thank you:

 

A request: Would you summarize your history in a signature - ALL drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements, in the last 12-24 months particularly?

• Please leave out symptoms and diagnoses.
• A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs. 

• Any drugs prior to 24 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years.
• Please use actual dates or approximate dates (mid-June, Late October) rather than relative time frames (last week, 3 months ago)
• Spell out months, e.g. "October" or "Oct."; 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as Jan. 9, 2016 or Sept. 1, 2016.
• Link to Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

 

There are many existing topics and discussions on this site.  You can use the site search function at the top right on the main site page, or use a search engine and include survivingantidepressants.org in your search string.

 

This is your own Intro topic where you can ask questions and journal your progress.  We suggest that members visit each others Intro topics so that can support and encourage each other.

[wantrelief]

2 hours ago, Fontman82 said:

I think living with the emotional regret, and the fear of everything happening is the hardest to thing living with this. I know people will say, it get's better, this is a forum of hope, but I'm far off believing  that. I want to, but it's hard. I feel bad for my wife, we really are soulmates, only now her life partner is a broken shell of a man, that's what kills me. So that's it for now.

I wanted to reach out and welcome you to SA.  I am so sorry for everything you are going through.  I am in a different situation with citalopram but related to a lot of what you said in your intro post.  I think many of us can relate to the fear you are experiencing.....I know I can for sure.  I also struggle with believing that it will get better....I think it is quite difficult to feel any differently when you are struggling.  I try to take comfort in those who have gone before us and in the success stories.  I also completely understand how you are feeling about your wife.  My husband and I married almost one year ago when I was doing well on citalopram.  I waited a very long time to meet him as I am in my 40's and feel so badly about what I have become these last few months - exactly what you describe as being a shell of the person you were.  Not what our partners signed up for!  Through it all though, my husband has been amazing and has stood by me, as he has through a couple of other low points in my journey with these medications.  He is my inspiration to get through this debacle and hopefully your wife can be yours as well. 

[Isabellax]

5 hours ago, Fontman82 said:

Really bad brain frog, and slow cognition, which has been the most frightening symptom so far, when brain fog is bad, I can't remember details and I stumble over my words. This scares the hell out of me because online everybody says that's brain damage. I work in VFX Film, so it's absolutely devastating to my career, I find it hard to retain new information.

Hi Fotman82,

 

I 'm sorry you are going through that awful experience! I 'm 7 months off AD and Stimulant (cold turkey). First 4-5 months my brain was an absolute mess. A foogy brain, scattered thoughts and zero concetration. Besides the antidepressant I think I had a big dependacy on stimulant as well. I work in financial services in a role that requires huge concentration! I really thought my career was over and my brain was pemanately damaged. In the last 6 weeks things are getting slowy better. My mind is slowly starting working better, I have better cognitive function and sleeping better and working out like crazy helped my brain fuction much better. I consider myself a very smart person (despite the stupiest desicion to start these medications) with great memory and now I perform at 50% of my capacity but very very slowly it's getting better. Like you I 'm very angry towards myself and my decision to start medication for 6 years without thorough research beforehand.

All I want to say to you is that YOU HAVE TO ALLOW YOURSELF TO BELIEVE things will get better. I know how hard it seems now. It was hard for me 7 months ago.

But you will get better. Time and patience are the most powerful warriors.

Enjoy the beautiful snow in Bournemouth. London is cold and snowy as well

All best

[Fontman82]

Hello everyone,

 

sorry I didn't get back on here until now, truth is I was just starting a mini break to London before I sent my last message, I wanted some time away from searching for a solution to my suffering. Not that not thinking about it helped much. Chessiecat, thanks for all the information, I've been through some of that already but I'll go through the rest that I haven't.

 

WANTRELIEF: thanks for your comforting words, yes that's exactly how I feel, my wife is the most amazing supportive person in the world, But even though she is, she's not indestructible and I must be weighing heavily on her, we've been together 14 years and we've been thorough a lot, I didn't work for years and she supported me through University. I finally get a decent job and making a decent living and then I made the stupid decision to come off Citalopram when I wasn't even doing that badly. It's true I was fine for a while but the biggest mistake was hoping back on at 10mg I think as that totally messed me up I think.

 

Hi Isabellax, I'm sorry to hear you also had trouble especially regarding your career, I just want to provide for my wife and be happy, such a simple request in life. I want to believe because my wife needs me. It's really hard because I'm anxious all the time now, I mean I was before ever going on med, but now I'm off I'm really anxious, morning until night.  Bournemouth was really bad with snow before I left for London, London was not so bad for me.

 

Right, so I didn't go to the doctors, to be honest, I was too afraid in case they just dismiss what I say, but question is, what to do now? do I try to stabilise on a small dose, or just keep going drug free.

 

I honestly don't know what to do, I keep waiting to feel better but so far, not so much. My Sleep is ruined, I have no problems getting to sleep, staying asleep is another matter, I wake about 3-4 times a night, it takes about 20 minutes to fall back asleep in between. Wake up feeling anxious and that lasts all day, while a work and when I'm relaxing afterwards. I spend a lot of time resting in bed which is not great I know but I just feel emotionally exhausted all the time I just want to lie down.

 

This is a living hell, I'm not as good as writing down things as other members, but I'm suffering pretty terribly, I never knew growing up a person could suffer like this, I knew about physical things but never the suffering of the mind, that also has physical symptoms .

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

I have found that Magnesium helps to take the edge off my anxiety.  There have been several times during my taper when I haven't taken if for a few days in a row and then gone back on it and I have noticed the difference.

[ChessieCat]

Please note that I am not suggesting that you try reinstating.  I just want you to know what your options are.

 

This is our reinstatement topic.  Please read Post #1 About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

I am aware that you reacted badly when reinstating previously but it may have been that you reinstated too much.  You might find that reinstating a very small amount even a teeny weeny 0.25mg might be all that your brain needs.  If you feel worse you would immediately stop.  It is better to start with a low dose and increase by another tiny amount after a week if you don't feel any or very much improvement.

 

Tips for tapering off Celexa (citalopram)

[Fontman82]

Thanks for the info ChessieCat, I forgot to mention, I'm already taking magnesium citrate - 200mg which to be honest I'm not sure if it's helping or not at the moment. We will see how it goes. This is a tricky situation to be in, I wonder if a small reinstatement would help or not, I'm afraid to try but at the same time, really want some relief to this constantly anxious state. Work is so hard now and I have deadlines, I may have to think of another career or something I can do at home as I'm not sure how long I can endure this everyday. Which is a double edged sword as work also keeps me occupied, I just can't do it effectively or comfortably. I wonder if going back now would help or make things worse. I know it's impossible to tell.

[ChessieCat]

Q:  Are you taking or have you taken any other drug/s that you haven't mentioned?

 

Eg statin, thyroid med, 5-htp, nutriceutical St John's Wort, or any of those types of supplements.

 

There is another one that I can't think of the name at the moment.  One of the members had found it helpful but then it turned on her.

 

nootropics-for-withdrawal

 

From: supplements-what-helps-what-doesnt

 

 

On 15/10/2011 at 6:59 AM, Altostrata said:

People who have withdrawal hypersensitivity can get odd reactions to supplements that a normal person would be able to take with no noticeable side effects.

 

We recommend that people with withdrawal hypersensitivity not take mixed supplements, because you won't know which of the ingredients you're reacting to.

 

Shaky, nervous, and heart palpitations are frequent hypersensitive reactions.

 

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Fontman82 said:

I wonder if going back now would help or make things worse. I know it's impossible to tell.

 

It's a tough decision.  The way I have made a decision about whether to updose during my taper was by asking myself "can I live with the symptom if it continues?"  There have a couple of times when the answer was no and a few more when the answer was yes.  I realise that my situation is different to yours, I'm just trying to help you brainstorm.

 

The other thing that you need to ask yourself is "what are my options?"  Are you likely to get desperate and end up at the doctor's or a hospital?  If you did you might be given a different drug, possibly a combination, and most likely at a high dose, to which you could possibly have a bad reaction because your CNS has been sensitised.

 

These drugs are strong and as I said a really tiny amount might be all that you need.  You could even try smaller, eg 0.1mg as a test to see how you respond.  If that goes okay you could increase it by a tiny bit more.

 

Something to consider, is there anything in your diet that might be making things worse?  Do your drink coffee or alcohol?  Are then any foods which you eat a lot of or that you may eat occasionally but there is a pattern to your symptoms.  Do you eat foods containing MSG or food enhancers?  They are neurotoxins.  I became glutamate intolerate and couldn't even eat naturally occurring glutamates after getting hooked on Sour Cream and Chive Pringles.  There are many savoury foods and of course Chinese food which contain food enhancers.  Artificial sweeteners?

 

histamine-food-intolerance 

 

msg-food-what-to-eat-what-not-to-eat

 

chinese-food-and-msg

 

eating-as-an-activating-factor-increasing-anxiety-or-symptoms

 

food-sensitivities

 

phenylalanine-an-ingredient-in-diet-soda

 

Magnesium, do you take it once a day or throughout the day.  Some members have found it helpful to dissolve it in water and sip throughout the day.  I take mine night and morning.  There are different types.  You could try a different one and see if that makes a difference.

[ChessieCat]

And something else I've thought about this morning.  Are you eating regularly throughout the day?  Changes in your sugar levels can create anxiety.

[Fontman82]

Hello, sorry for the late reply, I’m trying to spend more time with my wife and not worrying about things, of course it’s not working on the worry part.

 

I’m guilty of not always eating, my appetite isn’t what it use to be. But I’m trying to eat more.

 

i went to the Doctor and he didn’t listen to me as suspected and prescribed me Mirtazipine 15mg. I haven’t used the prescription. I’m going to see another doctor and see if I convince them to help me.

 

It’s been just over 3 months since trying to get back on Citalopram and it’s been a living hell. I may have to leave my job as it’s just too much. 

 

I was was thinking of trying 1mg Citalopram reinstatment to try and stabilise.

 

thanks

 

Shaun

 

 

[ChessieCat]

It is generally better to reinstate the drug which is causing the withdrawal symptoms instead of trying a different drug.  The new drug may not "cover" the withdrawal symptoms and you could also end up with start up, side effects or possibly even a bad effect.  Because you would most likely still experience withdrawal symptoms from the citalopram you won't know what is causing what.

[Fontman82]

So perhaps I should try going back on Citalopram at a lower dose to see if that helps. Getting the doctor to stand by me on this is going to be difficult. I feel terrible now, I sure hope fortune favours the bold. I feel sorry my wife has to see her Husband like this. She’s understanding but it must be really difficult for her. 

[Fontman82]

ok I ripped up the Mirtazipine prescription as I don't intend to use yet another drug, I have another appointment with a different doctor tomorrow. I'm not sure what to say to her, or if I should just cancel it. Has anyone on here found relief from 1mg reinstatement? I really hope trying to get back on it, is a good idea. I just don't want to make things worse you know. I'm really afraid.  

[ChessieCat]

Please read these before you see your doctor:

 

How do you talk to a doctor about tapering and withdrawal?

What should I expect from my doctor about withdrawal symptoms?

[Fontman82]

The doctor flat out didn't believe me about withdrawal, stated people are off and on medication all the time and do well. Wouldn't listen to anything about reinstating at a small dose. I mean I'm not surprised at all.She prescribed me Propranolol 40mg x 3. I honestly just feel like I'm so alone. It's like I have to live now constantly anxious, no amount of supplements is going to get me out of this.  I feel anxious, bad concentration and dizzy. Great that I may be like this permanently

[wantrelief]

7 hours ago, Fontman82 said:

The doctor flat out didn't believe me about withdrawal, stated people are off and on medication all the time and do well. Wouldn't listen to anything about reinstating at a small dose. I mean I'm not surprised at all.She prescribed me Propranolol 40mg x 3. I honestly just feel like I'm so alone. It's like I have to live now constantly anxious, no amount of supplements is going to get me out of this.  I feel anxious, bad concentration and dizzy. Great that I may be like this permanently

Yes, not surprising that these doctors are not listening but disappointing and frustrating nonetheless.  I know some folks here have had to go around their providers by saying they just want to go back on the drug and then take whatever dose they want to from the prescription.  I don't know how you feel about doing that but it may be an option if you want to try the reinstatement.  

 

I have a hard time believing this won't be permanent too and am so fearful of being stuck in this alternate universe so I very much understand where you are coming from....but I've read so many stories of this condition, or whatever you want to call it, improving in time.  It just takes way more time than any of us would want but it does happen.    

 

I also know how alone you feel - we all do as no one can truly get it unless they have lived it. It also doesn't help to have medical providers discount your experience.  Please keep posting as we do get it and you aren't alone here.

[Dude]

Hey there Frontman

 

I've gone through (and am continuing to go through) something similar to you. My story is pretty long and I was in a very bad situation recently when I decided to sign up here. So if you happened to read my original post, don't draw any false conclusions regarding the chance of recovery (stress makes my wd symptoms a lot worse but they're eased off again a bit now that my situation has improved slightly...).

 

Anyway, I was on antidepressants (and some other drugs) for five and a half years. The last one and a half of those five and a half years I spent on Cipralex (escitalopram).  I had cold turkeyed off ADs several times and became hypersensitive to them (upon a attempt to reinstate them in order to taper off) and had an almost identical reaction to it as the one you described in your first post. I assumed it was a form of serotonin toxicity and therefore gave up trying to reinstate the drug and went through cold turkey withdrawal.

 

This was around six to eight years ago (my timeline is a bit complicated, but I won't go into detail for your sake) and I suffered from those exact symptoms you describe. And, unfortunately, they did last for quite a long time. But the thing is that I have been gradually improving. I still suffer from a good deal of those symptoms, but they're a lot milder than they originally were and I'm able to function (more or less). And I'm convinced that I will eventually heal completely.

 

That being said, it's been an incredibly rough ride (and I sure as hell sympathize with you, since I know exactly what you're going through) and if I could go back in time and find a way to reinstate Cipralex in order to taper off slowly, I'd definitely do it (that being said, if I could go back in time I'd prevent myself from taking ADs in the first place, of course, but you know what I'm getting at...). And if I could do so safely even today, I'd still consider it.

 

On the other hand, there's quite a risk involved which in my case potentially involves tardive dyskinesia (movement disorders of the type you described) and severe akathisia (etc.). And for me that was just too risky, which is why I chose not to go down that route. However,  if you really were able to reinstate the drug at an extremely low level (I compounding pharmacist might be able to help you there), then I personally would recommend you do so in order to prevent you from going through what I went through. But if you think it's too risky (as I did), then don't.

 

I can't make that decision for you and neither can anyone else here (as you know yourself). But if you choose to stick it out then rest assured that your situation will improve in time. It'll be tough, which can't be denied. But you it can be done. Also, I've some health problems and bad habits that I'm pretty sure have slowed my recovery (coeliac's disease, smoking and some other health issues), but if you've otherwise been in relatively good health yourself prior to withdrawal, then you may very well recover a lot quicker than I did. So don't be discouraged by my timeline. And if you've got a good digestive system, the "nutraceuticals" offered by the company "Point of Return" (which can be found online) might also help you recover a lot quicker.

 

Anyway, those are my current thoughts on your situation. I wish you great strength and a good recovery, regardless of which route you choose to take. And if you choose the route I've chosen (or perhaps had no choice to choose...) then remember that no matter how hard things are for you right now, things will improve in time.

 

[Dude]

Apologies for the spelling mistakes (etc.), by the way. I'm in a rush to get to bed as I've to get up again in a couple of hours... But your thread caught my eye when I logged on, which is why I decided to reply to you nonetheless. Anyway, good luck and take care.

[Dude]

Last comment for now: you mentioned that the depersonalization/derealization symptoms have already cleared up. Mine were severe for years and have gradually improved. I still suffer from a low level of those symptoms but am having "windows" (i.e., moments/periods without them) more often, which indicates that I'll probably be rid of them soon enough. And in your case that would imply that you're already recovering at quite a rapid rate (in comparison with me, for example). So I'd take that as a very good sign, regardless of all the other (albeit troubling) symptoms you currently still suffer from. So that might be another reason to stay your current course. But, anyway, that's just my opinion.

 

Again, good luck and all the best.

[Fontman82]

Hey Dude,

 

Thanks for sharing your story,it does sound quite similar to mine, I'm sorry it's been so long for you, that sucks man. Honestly, I'm in two minds, I keep waiting to improve but like a lot of people, that's all we can do I guess. The feeling I have with my legs does sound like mild akathisia as it's there all the time now not just when I want to sleep. The muscle jerks tend to happen to my right arm and sometimes my feet. They jolt randomly jolt every now and then but I only notice those when trying to relax. Like in a sleepy state but not quite asleep. So those reflexes are definitely liked to sleep or relaxation I think.

 

As far as symptoms go, my brain fog seems to have cleared up quite a bit and my recall memory seems better, speech is better. So right now it's the mild akathisia, the muscle spasms/twitches/jolts and the crippling morning anxiety that are the main issues. It's funny that the depression I felt has lifted quite a bit, so It's mostly anxiety stuff and what I've mentioned. I suppose I should be grateful I have my emotions and other things back. But I'd like to oneday feel normal, I remember what that feels like and man I wish I could go to bed and wake up rested without feeling like crap. Hopefully one day I will get that. If I had a choice between winning the lottery and just being healthy again, I would pick healthy in a heartbeat. If you're healthy, you're rich in my mind, I know that sounds weird.

 

About reinstatement, I know the longer I wait, the less likely it will work, but I've given myself a couple more months, if things improve, then I'll stay the course. If they don't, I think I'm going to try a low level of Citalopram to see if it helps. It could just make things worse but who knows. I know what you mean about going back in time, If I could I would go back and tell them where to shove those pills, but we are in it now. At least when all I suffered from was panic attack and anxiety I would have known it was just them and not side effects of medication. But There's no going back. I have no choice but to fight it no matter how hopeless things appear. No thanks, I've already suffered trouble from one set of drugs, I don't want more from another. I know Escitalopram is like Citcalopram, but sure if that would be worth trying, I know it's another drug so might not cover up withdrawals. I've also heard that too low a reinstatement can just prolong sysmptoms, so honestly, not too sure. I hope If I do go back, I can tell the difference between something that's not working and something to be expected like startup symptoms. 

 

Anyway thanks for taking the time to read my post, same to others too. I wish you luck too.

 

 

 

[Dude]

Hi there Fontman

 

Thanks for your reply. Interesting what you wrote about the jolts/spams/jerks. During the first few years of protracted withdrawal they would also mostly occur spontaneously when I was (at least somewhat) relaxed, having been more intense and longer in duration to begin with and then having eased off a bit over time. Nowadays I seldom have them, only occasionally. And also usually only after exposure to certain substances like solvents, antihistamines, alcohol or caffeine. So I avoid all of that like the plague, if possible.

 

That being said, I was never quite sure how to classify the symptoms. For years now I have assumed they're basically a form of tardive dyskinesia (which literally translates as "delayed onset movement disorders", if I'm not mistaken) which is, in short, the result of brain damage (perhaps only temporary/reversible damage). And Peter Breggin also points out in one of his books (the Antidepressant Factbook, I think) that such symptoms of dyskinesia do indeed often occur when one is relaxed.

 

In his book "Prozac Backlash" Joseph Glenmullen also describes some patients of his who suffered from such symptoms after exposure to ssris, by the way and has identified four common neurological side effects that can sometimes occur, which are parkinsonism (similar to but not identical with parkinsons and which also includes "bone weary fatigue", by the way), agitation (aka akathisia), muscle spasms and tics . And if they occur he advises to take patients "off the offending agent", as he puts it.

 

He also points out that stress can exacerbate the symptoms and that although the side-effects may clear after a while, the nervous system can be left more vulnerable to the development of such symptoms upon further exposure to type of drug in question. So that might be a good reason to stay away from ssris if you're doing okay, especially since your condition seems to have improved at a remarkable rate.

 

On the other hand, according to a neurologist I' saw about a year and a half ago, muscle spasms/dyskinesia are/is a commonly seen upon discontinuation of ssris. Unfortunately, he really answer my question as to whether or not that means that there's actually any brain damage present (and said that there was no point in performing an MRI scan, since it probably wouldn't show up even if there was) and just said we'd have to see how things went with regard to the dyskinesia... (that's doctors for you, I suppose).

 

Also, I recently had a look through an old psychology textbook I had lying around in which withdrawal symptoms are described as "unpleasant physiological and psychological reactions that occur when a person suddenly stops taking an addictive drug: these range from nausea, anxiety, mild tremors, and difficulty sleeping at low levels of dependence to vomiting, cramps, hallucinations, agitation, and severe tremors or seizures at higher levels".

 

So you see, it's pretty hard to determine whether or not the symptoms both you and I (and countless others) have been experiencing are signs of actual brain damage caused by the drugs or whether they're "only" typical withdrawal symptoms that one could also expect to eventually clear up. That might seem like a somewhat pointless and slightly pedantic distinction, since one of our main questions is simply whether or not we'll ever be completely rid of such symptoms. But the distinction also seems to be important with regard to the question of drug reinstatement, in my opinion.

 

In the first case (the case of actual brain damage caused by the drugs), any further exposure to the drug would be likely to cause further brain damage which would cause a worsening of symptoms and would make it a lot more likely for them to become permanent. In the second case, however, it would seem that reinstatement might very well be possible, since the movement disorders (etc.) would simply be a common reaction to abrupt withdrawal. And that's why I've recently been wondering whether or not reinstatement might actually be possible even in my case, in that perhaps I simply misinterpreted the cause of the movement disorders way back then (i.e. thinking it was a case of tardive dyskinesia caused by hypersensitivity to ssris and brain damage, instead of simply having been typical withdrawal symptoms).

 

However, whenever I tried to reinstate the drug (i.e. Cipralex) in the past, I also developed severe akathisia almost immediately after taking it (apart from other symptoms that were indicate of serotonin toxicity / serotonin syndrome). And that in turn would seem to fit with Breggin's and Glenmullen's assessment of what was actually happening (i.e. that it was indeed a case of brain damage and that any further exposure to the drugs would be very risky).

 

I wish I knew more about what was actually going on or at least came across a specialist who could say so for sure so that I could finally make an informed decision and not just have to guess. But the truth is that the information is currently simply not available in order for people like us to know for sure. For example, I've actually talked to David Healy personally (via Skype) and also to Terry Lynch (also a well-known irish psychiatrist who's written books that are critical of mainstream psychiatry) and although they both advised me not to go back on the drug due to the risk, they also admitted that they didn't know for sure whether it was impossible to go back on it in order to taper off again. They just said that it seemed very risky in my case.

 

But be that as it may, I've recovered quite a bit so far and I suppose that with having such limited information, taking a risk of that kind would indeed be somewhat daft (and no offense if you're still considering it). Certainly, it might very well work. But then again, I might end up completely screwed for the rest of my life. And that's a risk I can't really afford to take, as tempting as it is. So for me the answer seems to be to work on my health using "alternative" methods (e.g. nutrition) and to simply wait it out. And after having given your situation some more thought (for example with regard to the similarity between your situation and mine) and taking your incredibly rapid rate of recovery into account, I guess I would have to recommend you stay away from ssris after all.

 

That being said, I do have to admit, though, that I'd be extremely curious to find out what happened to you if you did decide to go back on Citalopram, since it would give me more information on which to base any future decisions. So in a way it would be in my own best interest not to discourage you from giving it a go, if you wanted to. But I think that would be immoral, since in truth I don't think it would be worth taking the risk (I may not be a saint, but, unlike most psychiatrist, I'm not a complete b***ard ).

 

[Dude]

Note: in the fifth paragraph of that previous post I wrote "he really answer my question....". What I meant to write was "he didn't really answer my question...".

 

Man, I should get into the habit of reading my posts again before submitting them, not after. And, perhaps, figure out away to get the message across using less words...

[Dude]

Dammit, noticed some more spelling mistakes/grammatical errors while reading the rest of it.

 

Also, I'm wondering whether I'd really care as much if I'd already completely recovered. I don't know how things are for you, but becoming slightly obsessive about insignificant details does seem to be a common symptom of withdrawal. Also, the "filter" in the frontal lobes of the brain seems not to work quite as well as it usually would, which is why I reckon a lot of us (especially me) tend to go into a bit more detail than is actually necessary. But at least that's been improving. Otherwise my posts would be three times as long, believe it or not...

[Fontman82]

Don't worry about errors in grammar or spelling, mine is never that good anyway. I've actually just terrifyingly realised my bad reaction trying to go back on Citalopram in December was actually  severe akathisia, the pacing, couldn't stay still, lie in bed, increased anxiety that never lets up. I've just now realised I must be in the withdrawl version of akathisia as I can't sit still like I used to, I get this build up of feeling really uncomfortable and have to stand up and go into the kitchen or something then I go back to my seat. I've also noticed my abdomen keeps contracting. I pray it's not that and I'm just highly adgitated. If it is that, then going back on Citalopram is out of the question. I'm not sure what to do, I can't even find a doctor to discuss this with in the UK. So sick of being afraid all the time.

[Dude]

Hi Fontman

 

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. When I tried to reinstate Cipralex after only a few hours I also couldn't sit still and was pacing around in my apartment. I was also severely agitated and my muscles contracted. Also, I'm familiar with muscle contractions (etc.). Though it was extremely distressing, it did ease off after a while. So rest assured, it's only temporary even if it might take a while to clear up. The same goes for the anxiety, by the way, even though it's distressing while your experiencing it (magnesium is often recommended to help ease anxiety, by the way; I use a pure form of magnesium chloride obtained from a local pharmacy).

 

As I said, I personally wouldn't recommend going back on an ssri, considering your reaction to it and with its similarity to my own. That being said, I'm not an absolute expert on the subject, so I'm afraid I can't give you professional advice. And yes, it's very hard to find a doctor who knows about this stuff and who could tell you what to do (the local doctors I tried to talk to about this didn't take it seriously either). However, if you can afford it and feel up to it, you might want to try contacting David Healy, for example. He charges quite a bit for sessions (€ 500 an hour), but he is considered to be an expert on the subject.

 

As mentioned, I talked to him before and he advised me to stay clear of ssris and wait it out. However, he is a psychiatrist who despite all his criticism of psychiatry and psychiatric meds occasionally still prescribes them himself in certain cases. So I'd still be cautious when it comes to advice from any psychiatrist (with the exception of Peter Breggin and perhaps a few others) and, in my opinion, trust your own intuition. If you don't feel comfortable about the prospect of going back on an ssri, then maybe that's your body/subconscious telling you not to take the risk for good reasons (in my opinion anyway).

 

I'll gladly keep in touch with you on this site, by the way, if there's anything you'd like to discuss or just get off your chest.

 

P.S.: Apologies for the length of one of those previous posts. I sometimes get a little carried away when writing, but I'll try to keep my posts shorter and more to the point in future.

[Dude]

You might also find this link helpful for ways to deal with anxiety:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/16840-music-therapy-music-for-wellness-and-healing/

 

[Altostrata]

22 hours ago, Dude said:

On the other hand, according to a neurologist I' saw about a year and a half ago, muscle spasms/dyskinesia are/is a commonly seen upon discontinuation of ssris. Unfortunately, he [didn't] really answer my question as to whether or not that means that there's actually any brain damage present (and said that there was no point in performing an MRI scan, since it probably wouldn't show up even if there was) and just said we'd have to see how things went with regard to the dyskinesia... (that's doctors for you, I suppose).

1

 

That neurologist was actually unusually enlightened. Most physicians would say such a reaction is unheard-of.

 

"Brain damage" means physical damage to the brain, like a cut, or a disease that destroys tissue. It's very unlikely that going on and off psychiatric drugs does this. Rather, "dysregulation" is probably more accurate -- systems are not signaling when they should, sending the wrong signals, or signaling too much.

 

The gradual recovery process you see is the systems learning again how to interact normally.

[Dude]

Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification. Although I was aware that the drugs lead to dysregulation, I also thought they actually caused damage. However, if I'm not mistaken, there still seems to be some controversy over this, isn't there? (especially with regard to neuroleptics leading to brain atrophy)

 

Still, if a well-informed neurologist who is actually aware of the dangers of psychiatric drugs (unlike most of them, as you pointed out) also says that an MRI is unlikely to show any damage, then I suppose that means that the brain itself is basically left mostly intact physically, despite any effects the drug(s) had. So maybe I misjudged the guy a bit after all, thinking he was basically just another one of those doctors who underestimated the damage they caused...

 

Anyway, what you wrote is quite reassuring when it comes to believing in ones ability to eventually recover completely. It would be nice if we could give the systems of our brain some additional "tuition" to speed up the learning process but I guess we just have to be patient and let the body do its work

[Fontman82]

The last couple of days have been strange, in a good way I think. It's weird because yesterday I felt different, a bit more like my old self, and this morning I actually hoped out of bed, instead of the anxious trembling mess I am normally. It feels like a switch was flicked and all of a sudden I feel, not so bad. The morning anxiety was almost non existent, the restlessness was gone after a few days of really feeling intense restlessness and my concentration, memory has improved. The brain fog I had for the moment seems gone. Also the hypersensitivity to sound and touch seems a lot less, almost within normal range. Tinnitus is still with me but although annoying as hell, it's my least worrying symptom, I mostly just ignore that one.  The sudden jolts are definitely less frequent but I still get about them now and then in the morning and night. Sometimes I get one at work, but because I work in an office, I can end up relaxing in my chair, so it seems like a relaxation response. Depression has lifted quite a bit, so feeling less down.

 

So today is the best I've been in about 4 months now since the bad reaction to Cit, and I realise this is most likely a window, but I'm praying it  lasts and get's better from here. I really hope, having myself back has been really good. Honestly this morning I actually woke up to a feeling of peace, something I've not felt since this all started. My sleep is better, not 100% better but an improvement. I have to hang on to this. I'll keep updating to let you guys know if this holds up.

 

Thanks

[Dude]

Bloody hell, Fontman! That's incredible. Congratulations! I have to admit, reading your post made me slightly jealous since it took me several years until I started to see some genuine improvement of the kind you've described. So to see such improvement after "only" four months is truly impressive. Looks like your body has supercharged healing powers!

 

And even if it's "just" a window you're experiencing, to have such a window so soon and to such an extent is, again, an incredibly good sign. Because such windows (if that's what it is) will become more and more frequent in time until you eventually have complete, permanent relief from your symptoms. That's what they've been saying on this site about such windows anyway, and I for one have recently been experiencing them myself more frequently which is why I also think it's only a matter of time until I'm back to "normal". So it looks like we're both on the right track!

 

Have a great day and a great week!

 

 

[Dude]

By the way, I posted something on another thread ("Athena's" Introduction" thread) on what might help with sleep problems. Perhaps the suggestions would also help you, so I've copied that post for you. Here it is:

12 hours ago, Dude said:

What might help with your insomnia is Montmorency Tart Cherry Extract which is completely natural and contains a lot of melatonin. And the good thing about it is that, unlike a lot of melatonin products, it's not habit forming (as far as I know and as far as I can tell from personal experience). The company called "Point of Return" - which specializes in helping people with coming off psychiatric drugs and/or with recovering from withdrawal - sells them on their website (with which I'm not personally affiliated, by the way). The product has simply been named "Sleep" and I've had good experiences with it in the past (though perhaps LifeExtension has something similar on offer). They also offer a product containing milk peptides which they call "Relax". Then there's magnesium, of course, which might also help. But that's probably been mentioned already.

 

What I've also found very useful when it comes to dealing with sleep difficulties are audio tracks that have so-called binaural beats and/or isochronic tones embedded in them. What works quite well for me is the "Sleep Easy Solution" by the company "Project Meditation". Costs just under $100 but is well worth it, in my opinion (and again, I'm not affiliated with that company either). But you can also find similar tracks on youtube that will have a similar effect. Just type "sleep binaural beats" or "sleep isochronic tones" in the search bar.

 

Lastly, there's a song that is apparently scientifically proven to reduce anxiety called "Weightless" by the band Marconi Union. Here's a link to the YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfcAVejslrU

 

There's also a 30 minute and a 10 hour version of that song on YouTube, by the way.

 

Hope this helps.

 

P.S.: The blue light blocking glasses are a good idea. Mine broke, unfortunately, but I might get myself another pair since they do seem to help.

 

 

In case you were wondering what the "blue light blocking glasses" are which I referred to (if you've never heard of them before), they're simply plastic glasses (like sunglasses) you can buy online that block / filter the blue light frequencies from the whole spectrum of light. And the reason for this is that such blue light (coming, for example, from computer screens, smartphones, TVs or fluorescent lights etc.) tends to prevent your body from making enough melatonin for sleep (or, rather, delays the production of it just as daylight does, which in the case of the latter is a natural thing). So using such glasses would allow you, for example, to watch TV in the evening or work at your computer without interfering with the production of melatonin.

 

Since you work in VFX, you've probably heard about such glasses before and know what they're for and how they work. Just thought I'd mention it in case you didn't and were interested in trying them out. There's a company called "Low Blue Lights" in the States that sells them online, by the way (for about $70 or something like that) but you might be able to find them in the UK somewhere too.

 

 

[dj2010]

7 minutes ago, Dude said:

By the way, I posted something on another thread ("Athena's" Introduction" thread) on what might help with sleep problems. Perhaps the suggestions would also help you, so I've copied that post for you. Here it is:

 

 

 

In case you were wondering what the "blue light blocking glasses" are which I referred to (if you've never heard of them before), they're simply plastic glasses (like sunglasses) you can buy online that block / filter the blue light frequencies from the whole spectrum of light. And the reason for this is that such blue light (coming, for example, from computer screens, smartphones, TVs or fluorescent lights etc.) tends to prevent your body from making enough melatonin for sleep (or, rather, delays the production of it just as daylight does, which in the case of the latter is a natural thing). So using such glasses would allow you, for example, to watch TV in the evening or work at your computer without interfering with the production of melatonin.

 

Since you work in VFX, you've probably heard about such glasses before and know what they're for and how they work. Just thought I'd mention it in case you didn't and were interested in trying them out. There's a company called "Low Blue Lights" in the States that sells them online, by the way (for about $70 or something like that) but you might be able to find them in the UK somewhere too.

 

 

i started wearing blu light blocking glasses a few weeks ago, i wrote about it in my last monthly update, i wear them after 6pm very night and watch tv with them up until i go to sleep, I have been able to fall asleep within 10 minutes of trying nearly every night and sleep has been a lot more solid and restorative, I bought ones in link below from amazon for £10:  https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005IPPBNI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

and also put up these blackout curtains, my room is now black as hell:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01NAZ6QGB/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

take care

 

 

[Dude]

Thanks for the info, DJ. Always good to know where you can buy such helpful products without busting the bank!

[Fontman82]

Hey Dude,

 

Yeah it’s going better thanks, but still far off from being better. This morning I felt the anxiety had increased some more and I’m still getting jolts, so not clear of that. My legs feel fatigued for some reason when I walk. That could just be lack of exercise and that fact I’ve lost weight during all of this.

 

I’ll check out those other suggestions to see if they help with my sleep. I had a coffee today, first one in a month. I know it’s important to be strict with caffeine and sugar and stuff but I need to remember what I was like before this and sometimes just doing something you would do before getting I’ll reminds me of what I want to be again.

 

but I hope things continue to improve, so far the hypersensitivity to touch and sound seams to still be improved which is good.

 

cool, take care man and thanks for the tips on stuff  

[Dude]

Hi Fontman

 

You're welcome. And yeah, I know what you mean about wanting to remember what things were like before the whole debacle... So I don't blame you for having the odd coffee or whatnot. I'm currently not as strict with my diet as I should be (for example with regard to sugar). But there's no point in making your life more difficult unnecessarily if it seems you can handle it (we're only human after all...).  My only advice would be not to overdo it to begin with and just take things easy.

 

Also, for your symptoms to vary from day to day is completely normal. Things are likely to go up and down for a bit. But the general direction will most definitely be "up". It's kind of like that "two steps forward one step back" thing (only in your case it seems to be more like "three steps forward and half a step back", you lucky something something... ). So even though at times it might seem like you're not making much progress, it sounds to me like you're getting there.

 

Also bear in mind that the reason it might be hard at times to realise you're making progress is that recovery is a gradual process. It's like boiling a pot full of cold water (for lack of a better analogy). After only thirty seconds or so, the water won't be much warmer than it was when you first filled the pot. And the difference in temperature between the 30 second and one minute mark won't be all that substantial either. And it will continue in that fashion till the water eventually begins to boil. But the difference between what the water was like to begin with and what it's like after ten minutes or so (that's how long it usually takes to boil water in my crappy pots ) will be substantial. And it's basically the same when it comes to recovery from this annoying condition (in my opinion anyway).

 

What's also interesting is that once you've improved a good bit it'll be hard to remember what it was like when you were worse off, which is why it might be difficult at times to appreciate just how far one has come. Ironically, it's thanks to the few setbacks I've had over the years (for example, due to the exposure to solvents to which I'm currently still a bit hypersensitive) that I realised that I had been improving even though it was hard to tell while it was happening. And I always recovered from those minor setbacks as well, by the way.

 

So just hang in there buddy! You're getting there!

 

His Royal Dudeness