Early-morning waking - managing the morning cortisol spike

[Gem]

Hi Fefesmom

 

If I can’t go back to sleep, I get up and have some cereal, do some reading and also take Magnesium Citrate.

 

This usually works for me. But it has been a bit harder recently, maybe because of the onset of spring and more daylight hours.

 

If I have problems getting to sleep in the first place, I use a relaxing, meditative recording.

[fefesmom]

Hi again.

 

I am taking magnesium 250mg (as magnesium oxide). Can't find mag. citrate or mag. glycinate.

 

Any suggestions where I can look? I got these at CVS. Is 250mg enough?

 

Also got an album for my ipod called Instant Sleep by Glenn Harrold which is very helpful.

 

Thanks! FM

[peggy]

hi fefesmom,

trying going online for the mag citrate or mag glycinate - i couldn't find either in local shops either. I have run out, but i was taking 400mg mag citrate - anymore and i got the runs

[cmusic]

I'm confused about cortisol. Mine is low. I was told that Cortisol doesn't cause stress, it is released by the adrenals when the body experiences stress. And that it is anti-inflammatory. And when adrenals are fatigued, they can't produce enough Cortisol to keep up with the stress.

 

How does this line up with everyone wanting to find ways to reduce it? Thanks.

[Meimeiquest]

I went to a holistic dr. For awhile in 2008-2009. He said the only meaningful way to measure cortisol is with a 24-hr. urine collection...don"t know if that is true or not. Mine was quite high, 130 when he said the tipping point for having problems was 100. Personally, I think there are so many possible causes of high and low. I think the nervous and endocrine systems are so linked, and step one is to get off the drugs. It is bad enough that the regular docs are so entwined with Big Pharma, but the holistic docs making a mint out of selling their own supplements takes it to a new level. I have been struggling with my health since 1999...maybe I'm a little jaded

[Altostrata]

cmusic, how was your cortisol measured?

 

Meimei is right about the 24-hour urine test for cortisol.

[cmusic]

So I definitely had to do something over 24 hours - they had 4 data points on a time chart. But I'm thinking it was a saliva test and not urine. Could this be why it showed low? Is that less reliable? Thanks.

[Altostrata]

The saliva tests for cortisol are completely unreliable.

[cmusic]

Damn. Here I am basing things on this and talking to these 'doctors' about treatments. Between that and the food 'allergies' thing it's just madness.

 

So would a good mainstream endocrinologist be able to do an accurate test for Cortisol and adrenal function? Seems like they would just take a blood test. Where would one find a reliable 24 hour urine test?

[Meimeiquest]

Damn. Here I am basing things on this and talking to these 'doctors' about treatments. Between that and the food 'allergies' thing

 

For my $1000s spent, my understanding is the test is real, but does not necessarily correlate with symptoms. It's a different immunoglobin subtype, but imagine I was allergic to a type of pollen , but I lived in AZ where that pollen didn't exist. I would be asymptomatic. Imagine at one time my gut lining was damaged, and I developed gluten allergies. When my gut healed, no more undigested gluten would hit my bloodstream, so I would be asymptomatic even if I ate gluten. The trial is an elimination diet of 4-6 weeks to see if you're sensitive. Just what I was told...who knows the truth.

 

Gluten is a big deal to me, causes fatigue and depression.

 

You might want to read this blog: www.emchpsychiatry.com. He's a holistic psychiatrist in town; I haven't seen him. You can also read his take on the folic acid mutation. But he seems to use some supplements that are not recommended here.

[Meimeiquest]

You could also search beyondmeds.com for adrenal fatigue....I think Gia has thoughts...

[Altostrata]

A 24-hour cortisol test effectively involves urinating into a bucket for 24 hours.

 

You may or may not be able to convince an endocrinologist to order one.

 

However, what would results mean? The endocrinologist won't do anything unless there's a tumor somewhere that can be removed.

 

If you have waves of anxiety, panic, alerting, etc., you can assume cortisol is involved as the neurotransmitter. This may or not amount to something that's measurable on tests.

 

You don't get "filled" with cortisol when you get these waves of cortisol-mediated symptoms. The amount of cortisol needed to transmit these impulses is small.

[Altostrata]

I now have to deal with reactive hypoglycemia and I'm back on the "dawn patrol."

 

It may be that low blood sugar plays a part in this early-morning alerting. To deal with hypoglycemia, it seems that ingesting some protein during the night can help reduce the early-morning cortisol spike (the adrenals release cortisol to deal with low blood sugar).

 

I've heard that taking some whey protein isolate when you wake up in the middle of the night can help. Have some unflavored whey protein with NO SUGAR or artificial sweeteners mixed in some water handy. It doesn't taste bad, it's very neutral.

 

Take this with a cider vinegar tablet to prevent a blood sugar spike, which will further wake you up. Vinegar and lemon juice slow the progress of sugars into the bloodstream.

 

This seemed to help me to get back to sleep last night. Theoretically, this ameliorates low blood sugar in the early morning.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Can't remember where I recently read this but it is something about the 'glial cells' that wake us up in the morning and it is they who respond to the dip in blood sugar. For awhile there, when I woke up at the proper time, I'd say to myself  'I've got to feed my glias'. Now, I generally have to force myself to eat in the morning, the bit of sugar and creamer in my coffee is the only thing I give my whining glias. I am so thankful I do not have any sleep issues at the moment. I wake up to pee and can gratefully fall back to sleep easily. On the meds I had to constantly fight my urge to stay awake and DO something because often sleep was elusive and prompted the use of clonazepam.

 

Good to know about the isolate if I ever need it.

[Barbarannamated]

Alto,

Is that a recent onset or change? How was it diagnosed? I'm sorry you're dealing with this now.

 

B~

[Petunia]

Relora review:

 

I got the Now brand which contains 300mg.  Relora (a proprietary blend of a patented extract from magnolia officinalis bark and a proprietary extract from Phellodendron amurense bark).

 

The claims are that it reduces stress, is relaxing and supports healthy cortisol levels.  I wanted to find out if it would reduce my daytime cortisol symptoms.

 

The quick answer is that it did, in that respect, for me it worked very well, but there were some side effects, so I wont be using it on a regular basis, as is recommended.

 

For me, the calming effect took between 1 -2 hours to kick in.  When I took it in the morning, it stopped the inner vibrations and shaking and general feelings of body tension, but I was so 'relaxed' that I wasn't able to do anything but lay on the couch and stare at the ceiling.  I had no motivation or interest in anything. I didn't even care that I was laying on the couch all day doing nothing. Usually I want to want to do things, but don't because I feel too sick. In hindsight, maybe that was a good thing, but at the time, realizing that I wasn't caring made me panic.  I imagined that I would just lay there for ever and never move again, not even to eat or drink.  I also dozed off to sleep on and off.  Perhaps if I had taken it for longer, or even a lower dose, it might not have had such an impact.  It was reported that some people get initial drowsy effects, but that they wear off.

 

The main thing I didn't like about it was that there was a significant rebound anxiety effect.  For me, they would wear off after about 6 -7 hours, and if I didn't take another one, I would be suffering with another cortisol surge, even if it was late afternoon or evening, and for me that's unusual.

 

Yesterday I took one at 6pm because I'd had a difficult stressful day (because of certain events) and desperately needed to calm my body down.  So I had a pleasant evening, but by about midnight, it had worn off and I couldn't go to sleep. I usually sleep quite well, but last night I didn't get much sleep because of rebound cortisol, I could have taken another capsule, but then it would have been wearing off during the early hours of this morning and the cortisol surge would have been worse than ever, as it was, it was pretty bad, probably rebounding from the capsule I took at 6pm.

 

The recommended dose is one cap 2 -3 times a day.  I took them twice a day for 2 days.  I think I would need to take them at least 3 times a day to avoid the rebound.  On one night I woke up at 1am with a jump and surge of panic, so I took another capsule and went back to sleep and slept through until about 8am.

 

On a positive note, I didn't get any of the other possible side effects like headache or stomach cramps.

 

This morning was fairly bad, but now, I'm feeling about the way I usually feel at this time of the day and its been 23 hours since I took the last capsule, so I think the paradoxical or rebound effects are very short lived compared with the unbalancing effects of meds like xanax and valium.  But my 'experiments' haven't been very scientific and this is just my experience.

 

I'm glad I got them, because for the occasional emergency situation, they don't seem to be as toxic or harmful as Xanax, but I'm not planning on taking another one any time soon.

[Altostrata]

Just catching up with this -- Barb, I've always had very mild reactive hypoglycemia, and simply didn't eat much sugar. I got more sensitive to it lately. But that's going away now. I started having a whey drink at bedtime again, it helps.

 

Thanks for asking.

[spectio]

Alto, I seem to be going through a similar thing too. I'm awake and miserable to be in bed in the total darkness at "dark o'clock". I haven't looked at the clock but assume its 4 or 4:30.

 

Do you have any problem with reflux after you do your whey night time shake? How much do you have? A glass, half a glass?

 

Is there any end to this?

[Altostrata]

No, I don't have any trouble with reflux. I drink a small glass at about 8 p.m.

[Nikki]

I have had this for so many years.  Is it the fear of the anxity coming on?  LIst of things to worry about - the worry habit?

 

Or is it something that meds were supposed to to correct and only made worse?

 

On the rare occasions that I did not wake up with this annoying anxiety which has become a morning ritual I felt wonderful, alive and blessed.  It never really lasted for more than a few days.

 

Are some of us just wired this way????????

 

If I eat sugary things at night it does affect this negatively.

[Barbarannamated]

I have had this for so many years. Is it the fear of the anxity coming on? LIst of things to worry about - the worry habit?Or is it something that meds were supposed to to correct and only made worse?Are some of us just wired this way????????

Nikki,For me, this is a distinct withdrawal symptom that I've only experienced after cold switches in 2008 (including Paxil CT) and then when DCing Pristiq. I had no idea what it was in 2008 and docs added antipsychotics, upped the benzos, etc. None helped and I, fortunately, didn't continue on that cocktail for long. Throughout the last 2 years it's cycled from pure panic/ anxiety with racing heart and then to anger / irritability / rage for a few months. When in panic cycle, I wake with thoughts that i have to escape my home situation (flee) which, of course, intensifies the anxiety and fear. I try to remind myself that this is caused by the drugs and not give it airtime in my head. This is not to say the issues don't exist but attempting to figure out a real life cause (and solution) during the throes of drug-induced neuroemotions is like trying to reason with someone who is drunk or high. I've been waking at 4:30 again with panic after several months reprieve. It seemed to worsen with summer and long days, but that may just be coincidence.

[Altostrata]

Yes, in the winter, the light stimulation is less intense.

[Altostrata]

Suggestion: Magnesium oil can be helpful for those middle-of-the-night wakeful surges, with more convenience and less stomach distress than taking a tablet. It is absorbed through the skin and the effect can last for hours. Because it's directly absorbed, it's very powerful. A little can go a long way; too much can go paradoxical. Try just a dab or one spray to begin with.

[Petunia]

Second review of Relora:

 

Yesterday morning I took a quarter amount 75mg by opening the capsule and dividing the powder.  It worked in the same way as a full capsule by calming the inner shaking and physical cortisol symptoms, there was also the same depressing, unmotivated effect, but not as bad as with a full capsule, but bad enough that I found it disturbing. It also killed my appetite for the entire day, which is mainly what they are promoted for.  I usually get my appetite back about mid afternoon when the cortisol decreases. There was no rebound effect with 75mg.

[Finn]

Thanks, Phil!I tried 2 months of Seriphos for reducing cortisol... it's hard to know for sure, but I think it helped. I'm ordering another month's supply to take it again in case my recent setback lasts longer or gets worse. (I'm still a million times better than I was when I first came to the site, though! Important to remember.) I think the Seriphos and walking for 45 minutes a day helped me most.

 

I thought about trying Seriphos last year, but I didn't know when to take it during the day. I read online that it helped if your body produced too much cortisol in response to stress, which I'm sure was happening to me, but it also said you have to time it right for maximum effect so I was confused.

[basildev]

Hi Finn,

 

Seriphos is a tricky one. I agree there's so much conflicting information out there about how and when to take it.

 

For my part, it didn't help at all. In fact when i took it, I awoke every hour on the hour. It disrupted my sleep.

[Altostrata]

From a conversation with a sleep doctor, I've gleaned that low blood sugar might add adrenaline to the early-morning cortisol surge.

 

He recommends loading with complex carbohydrates before bedtime, such as split-pea soup or other legumes, whole grain toast, or steel-cut or rolled oatmeal.

 

Complex carbs work with melatonin, help keep blood sugar level, and may reduce the cortisol surge.

[theelt712]

This happens to me constantly. It's waned a bit in the past few days but man, do I wake up with jumping, shaking, slowed breathing, anxiousness that something terrible will happen to me.

[SigmundFreud]

Hi guys is it okay to take phosphatidylserine complex? bottle says phosphatidylserine complex 500mg. It has Phosphatidylserine 100mg, phosphatidylcholine 55mg, phosphatidylethanolamine 40mg, and phosphatidylinositol 20mg. i tried it a few times on small doses maybe like 1/8 to 1/4 of a tablet around 9-10 pm because i usually wake up at 2-4am. it seemed to help but i was having weird dreams so i stopped for a few days. then this morning i had segmented sleep again so i took a 1/4 tablet around 4am just to try it in the morning. i seemed to feel anxious then i took some cal/mag/zinc+d3 and the anxiety went away. any ideas? thanks all and hope you are all hanging on and steadily improving.

[alex]

Look for "SERIPHOS" and take 1 capsule at bed time.

Having weird dreams is common in w/d.

[Barbarannamated]

I am still struggling with significant morning dread and anger and waking with racing heart (2.5 years post Pristiq). I've been through various workups (blood testing- not reliable, I understand) for adrenal exhaustion. Hydrocortisone and ADR adrenal supplement to increase cortisol both seemed to make me worse.

 

I've been considering PS /Seriphos for a few years, but have been afraid of its effects if my cortisol is, indeed, already low. I found this exerpt from something Nadia posted back in July 2011:

 

"Phosphatidylserine is believed to facilitate the repair of the

cortisol receptors in the hypothalamus. It is believed that the

cortisol receptors get damaged by high cortisol levels reducing the

ability of the hypothalamus to sense and correct high cortisone

levels. Because Phosphatidylserine helps repair the feedback control

apparatus, it is useful in correcting both high and low cortisol

levels."

 

Question: if my cortisol is spiking in early AM, is it reasonable to think that might result in a low/trough level at 8am?

 

Any thoughts or precautions on trying PS in light of my (possibly) low adrenal function? My others symptoms of adrenal insufficiency (low heartrate and low BP) have normalized.

 

I greatly appreciate any feedback. This issue is so confusing to me and produces my worst symptom - the morning dread followed by hours of crushing fatigue that lets up later in day.

[Altostrata]

Have you tried taking magnesium glycinate when you wake up or in the early hours?

 

Also, is your bedroom blacked out from the early morning light?

[Altostrata]

Regarding Seriphos or phosphatidyl serine, see http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/3782-phosphatydilserine-aka-phosphatidyl-serine-seriphos-or-cortiphos/

[kristinacc]

This anxiety in the mornings is one of the big ones I'm worried about coming back when beginning this taper. I did not get this until about four weeks after I finished my last prozac dose. I took my curtains down because I thought it had something to do with not having enough sunlight. Now I'm reading it's the opposite.  Somehow even though I had a rapid taper, I was fine while weaning. With my husband traveling it leaves me to be the one to put on the chipper face and wake the kids up which is so hard when I'm alone and feeling miserable. I remember wanting to flee my house and not wanting to be in there. Which is kind of hard when you're a stay at home mom. I was kind of hoping since I now know how to correctly come off the meds that I might not get this again.

[alex]

Hi Kristina;morning anxiety is awful and it is due to high cortisol levels.

Try to keep your room dark and cool.

This is a very tough process;the good news is that it gets better.I'm telling you this because I've been there and it has gotten much better for me.

 

Be patient,take care of yourself, and have faith it will get better.

 

Hugs,A.

 

PS How long have you been off AD? It would be good if you put your drug history

[Rhiannon]

EO, I just Googled this thread and pulled it up because I wanted to post in it today! I wasn't expecting there to be any recent posts. We must be on the same wavelength.

 

Having some cortisol mornings these days...just the usual thing, withdrawal. It happens periodically, when I've made a set of cuts.  Cortisol mornings are one of the ways I know it's time to hold for a month or so.

 

Not severe now, just very unpleasant. I lie in bed restless, anxious, hating my life, but don't want to get out of bed. I don't know why, it's just always been that way for me, I feel too restless and awake to sleep but I don't want to get up and go deal with the world either, that feels too anxiety-provoking.

 

But eventually the restlessness wins out and I get up. Now I've got a pot of (decaf) tea brewing and I feel like I don't want to do anything but I have to do something. So I'm here. I'll spend some time on my computer, check my email (anxiety provoking also). Maybe today I'll succeed in dragging myself out for a short walk, but maybe not. 

 

In a few hours it will be time to go to work, then I'll work, then I'll come home and go to bed, and by then I'll be feeling better, but the whole cycle will start again tomorrow morning.

 

I hate it and it feels like my life will never get better than this. And maybe it won't.

 

Sorry to be such a downer.