AuntieBea: tapering Celexa and Wellbutrin

[Gridley]

1 hour ago, AuntieBea said:

I feel a huge huge sense of relief to have made a start with this today. I will continue to update as I go along. Thank you so much for your help, Gridley.

 

Yes, it makes sense that your reaction to Wellbutrin could have changed due to tapering, age, etc.

1 hour ago, AuntieBea said:

 

If BP meds are neurologically active, then it makes sense that a person with withdrawal syndrome could be hypersensitive to them...am I understanding this correctly? My doctor has been disbelieving the intensity and number of symptoms I’ve been reporting, hence his conclusion that it must all be caused by underlying anxiety. 

 

 

Yes, you're understanding this correctly.

 

Do your crossover gradually.  

3/4 old, 1/4 liquid for 3-7 days

1/2 old, 1/2 liquid for 3-7 days

1/4 old, 3/4 liquid for 3-7 days

all liquid thereafter

 

I just did a Lorazepam crossover but didn't have enough of the old brand to take as long as I wanted.  If I had it to do over, I'd have held each stage longer, maybe the full 7 days for each stage.  Also, Brassmonkey recommends holding for 4-6 weeks after a crossover before you begin tapering.  I didn't and am having some ramped up symptoms from the Lexapro drop I did this Wednesday.

 

Gridley

 

[AuntieBea]

Gridley, 

 

Thanks for responding to my specific questions. Also, I appreciate the crossover recommendations. I very likely would not have gone as slowly as you have suggested. I will go for the 7 day plan as I don’t think I can be too cautious at this point. I didn’t know about holding after the crossover before tapering, so will do that as well. 

 

I see the recent Lorazepam crossover in your history and realized that you’re doing a crossover because of the brand change.

It hadn’t occurred to me that even that would require a cautious transition. Our nervous systems are that sensitive!!! I hope you get relief soon from your increased symptoms.

 

I feel a sense of urgency now about getting on with my Wellbutrin taper,  but at the same time feel more cautious than ever. 

I will keep updating, and thanks again for your help.

 

AuntieBea

 

 

[AuntieBea]

@Gridley

Hello again,

 

Ive been working on the Wellbutrin crossover for a week now, that is, taking seven days to complete the first 1/4 tablet in liquid form. My plan has been to continue in this way with the longest suggested holds between decreases.

 

I have also thoroughly read through “Tips for tapering off Wellbutrin” and am now beginning to wonder if given the seriousness of

my symptoms (high blood pressure leading to vision loss), it would be more prudent for me to revert back to the solid tablet form and begin tapering immediately using a digital scale. I prefer the liquid because it makes it so much easier to manage decreases, but considering what a long process it is just to do the crossover I’m wondering if it would be better for me to get straight into tapering as soon as possible. 

 

Apparently some people are able to tolerate larger decreases, and decreased more quickly with Wellbutrin than with some of the other antidepressants. If I understand it correctly, Alto herself decreased as much as 50mg at a time when she tapered off it, also having had blood pressure spikes as a side effect. I’m not thinking of that as a reason for me to do the same, but it got me thinking that maybe I should be approaching this with more of a sense of urgency. Maybe start immediately with the usual 10% decrease in tablet form and see how I do with it. 

 

Now that I have gotten the blood pressure medications out of my system it has become easier for me to focus on my symptoms and identify them as WD symptoms. There is a lot of anxiety and agitation, and akathisia. Also insomnia and the high blood pressure. I am really suspicious that much of this is being brought on by the Wellbutrin itself.

 

i understand there is no way of knowing how my body will respond, and that you would not advise me specifically what to do. I’m just hoping for any further input that might help me figure out the best way to proceed.

 

Thanks Gridley.

AuntieBea

[Gridley]

16 minutes ago, AuntieBea said:

Ive been working on the Wellbutrin crossover for a week now

 

I understand your concern   Of course, I can't advise you whether the additional 3 weeks you'll need to finish the crossover (plus the advised one month hold before beginning your taper) would be harmful to your blood pressure situation.  I've done my

Lexapro taper solely with the scales and have had no problem.  It's only when the dose gets down to very low numbers (less than 4mg pill weight) that the scale isn't accurate.  But by that time your dose will be very small, your blood pressure situation will be probably alleviated and certainly less urgent (side effects generally decrease as dosage decreases).

 

I appreciate your sense of urgency.  If you do decide to go back to tablets, you might want to wait a week for things to settle down before beginning your taper.  One of our basic rules is only one change at a time.

 

Starting off with the standard 10% of current dose seems wise to see how well you tolerate it.  If all goes well, you could increase, following the advice given by Alto in the "Tips" link.  It's fortunate that she's so thorough with her suggestions.

 

 

 

[AuntieBea]

@Gridley

 

Thanks. That’s really helpful for me to clarify my thinking.

 

I’m going to go back to the full tablet starting tomorrow, but I will do that for a week as a transition before starting the actual taper. I think that’s what you were suggesting.

 

It’s encouraging to understand that side effects will generally decrease as the dose gets lower. I certainly hope that’s the case for me.  I’ll start with a 10% decrease and see what happens, then do the crossover later on when the dose gets too small for the scale. Like everyone else I can only proceed with this one step at a time and respond to what happens as I go along. I am so grateful to be able to check in here at SA for support and guidance throughout the process. Thanks again Gridley!

 

 

[AuntieBea]

@Gridley

Hello again,

 

I went back to taking the whole Wellbutrin tablet today after seven days of 3/4 tablet, 1/4 liquid. My plan was do this for seven days total before starting the taper. I feel so horrible today, extremely depressed, not thinking clearly at all to the point of hardly functioning. Is it possibly a reaction to changing back again to the whole tablet? I’ve been having lots of WD symptoms lately which I have mentioned, but this is totally different and out of the blue. Is it possible that a change like that could have such a dramatic effect? If so, I’m thinking maybe I should go back to my original plan of slowly doing the crossover. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Thanks Gridley.

[Gridley]

14 minutes ago, AuntieBea said:

Is it possible that a change like that could have such a dramatic effect?

 

It seems extreme, but there is just no telling with these drugs.  On the one hand, you did fine for a week with the beginning of the crossover and also didn't have this type of reaction when you were taking the tablet before the crossover. On the other hand, going back and forth could have set something off.  Another possibility is you're having a delayed reaction to the liquid; some people don't do well on liquid.

 

As you say, you're not thinking clearly at the moment and so I wouldn't make any decisions right now.  You could give it another day on all-tablet and see how you feel tomorrow.

[AuntieBea]

@Gridley

 

Thanks. I’ll try that.

[Gridley]

21 hours ago, AuntieBea said:

Thanks. I’ll try that.

 

How are you doing today?

[AuntieBea]

On 10/1/2019 at 2:40 PM, Gridley said:

 

@Gridley

 

On 10/1/2019 at 2:40 PM, Gridley said:

 

How are you doing today?

 

Thanks for asking. I missed seeing your message till today.

 

I went back to the all-tablet like we talked about and continued that for a week. Last Monday I started the taper...10% reduction. I felt so horrible on that first day that I backed off immediately. It doesn’t seem possible that the effects could be felt after one day as I think the rule of thumb is four days for a change to be felt, but the symptoms were so extreme that I got frightened. I went back to -0- reduction for a day, then started the Brassmonkey Slide reduction of 2.5% reduction. I have done that for three days now and have felt increasing worse with each day. This morning I am questioning what the next right thing to do is.

 

From everything I’ve read here about Wellbutrin, it seems I am experiencing the really classic side effects of agitation, anxiety, palpitations, nervousness, insomnia, etc. in addition to high blood pressure and vision loss. This being the case, there’s a really urgent need for me to get off this drug, but...so far my efforts at tapering are leaving me nearly incapacitated with brain fog, dissociation, fatigue, depression and hopelessness in addition to all the other symptoms. It seems that I am caught between the side effects of the drug itself and the WD symptoms trying to get off it. Would you say that’s what is happening? 

 

I think I’ve read about a micro taper technique, which I think is a 1% reduction per week, or something like that. Wondering if I should try that? If so, would it be best to go straight into it this morning, or should I re-stabilize first at a -0- reduction for a few days? I would so appreciate any suggestions or words of wisdom.

Thanks Gridley

 

 

 

 

[Gridley]

9 minutes ago, AuntieBea said:

should I re-stabilize first at a -0- reduction for a few days? I

 

I just don';t know whether what you're experiencing are both WD and side effect or just side effects.  My guess would be the latter, which would argue for a faster taper rather than slower.  I'm going to bring this to the attention of the other mods.  In the meantime I would hold.

 

[AuntieBea]

@Gridley

 

OK Thanks.

As of today I will go back to holding...that is a -0- reduction at my original dose of 100mg Wellbutrin and 5.4mg Celexa.

 

[Gridley]

4 hours ago, AuntieBea said:

As of today I will go back to holding.

That's good.

 

If you are up to it, it would be helpful if you would keep a handwritten daily symptom chart and then post it every day here in your topic for several days.

 

Do you feel better or worse in the hours after you take the Celexa? The Wellbutrin?   Use a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom, drug and dosage) on the right.

 

This is an example:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

 

[AuntieBea]

@Gridley

 

Yes, I will do that.

Today I clearly noticed  a big increase in anxiety, agitation, brain fog, eye pain, etc about two hours after taking the 100mg Wellbutrin. But I will take detailed notes going forward and post them each day as you’ve suggested.

 

On another note, I am not very savvy when it comes to the computer and especially navigating on a forum. I have some really basic questions but don’t know where to direct them. If I understood a few things better it would help me to participate more fully with other people here...I am feeling the need for support right now from those who understand what I’m talking about. I’d also welcome the possibility of being helpful/supportive to someone else.... For example, do I need to continue to post things to your attention, like the daily symptoms lists over the next several days?

 

Thanks Gridley for your patience and continued support.

[Gridley]

24 minutes ago, AuntieBea said:

I have some really basic questions but don’t know where to direct them. If I understood a few things better it would help me to participate more fully with other people here...I am feeling the need for support right now from those who understand what I’m talking about. I’d also welcome the possibility of being helpful/supportive to someone else.... For example, do I need to continue to post things to your attention, like the daily symptoms lists over the next several days?

 

You can simply post your symptom chart and questions and your need for support here and there's no need to bring it to my attention.  That might help get you responses from other members.  You can write about your situation, the Wellbutrin side effects and your difficulties in tapering.  That can garner emotional support and perhaps some suggestions..  

 

Look through the Introduction forum every day and post comments and support for the various members, however you see fit.  That will link you into the community, which I have found is very compassionate.  

Edited October 12, 2019 by Gridley

[AuntieBea]

I really appreciate the pointers Gridley. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Making forum friends has not been coming easily to my naturally introverted self....

[AuntieBea]

Day 1 Symptom Chart 10/12-13/19

 

10:00 AM. Took 5.4mg Celexa.

11:00 AM. Took 100mg Wellbutrin.

  1:00 PM.  Increased anxiety, agitation, palpitations, head throbbing, eye pain, headache, brain fog.

  2:00 PM.  Ate lunch.

  3:30 PM.  Symptoms continue.

  6:00 PM.  Anxiety, agitation diminished. Palpitations, head throbbing, eye pain, headache, brain fog continue.

  7:00 PM.  Ate dinner.

  8:00 PM.  Palpitations, brain fog, noticeable tinnitus. Less eye pain, headache.

  9:30 PM.  Fell asleep.

12:30 AM. Woke up, fell back asleep.

  3:30 AM. Woke up. Got up. Extremely hot, angry.

  4:30 AM. Fell asleep

  6:30 AM. Woke up. Palpitations, hot flushing, agitated.

  8:00 AM. Head throbbing, left eye pain, palpitations, hot feet, brain fog, depression, malaise.

  9:00 AM. Took 5.4mg Celexa/100mg Wellbutrin.

  9:15 AM. Ate breakfast. Symptoms continue with less eye pain.

12:30 PM. Significant eye pain, headache. Full body palpitations, throbbing. Agitation, brain fog, can’t concentrate. 

 

 

[Giulietta]

Hello AuntieBea

 

Welcome (back) to SA!  I perused your posts and I'm sorry to see you've been having ups and (more?) downs lately. I joined SA in June 2019 and I am tapering (which I think is in hindsight mostly CT but is a story all by itself ) duloxetine/cymbalta - which may have some similarities to wellbutrin.  It looks like you are taking clonazepam now?

 

Gridley is the expert here - but from my perspective and experience - I have found that a micro-taper (BrassMonkeky) is much more palatable for my nervous system. Do keep a daily log as you did - I keep a written journal (since December 2018). I find it helpful to look back over a month to assess what symptoms I had experienced, their severity, etc. - since I try to ignore them when possible.

 

I have experienced many of the side effects and additional ones (except hypertension) you have cited. AD withdrawal is a gift that keeps giving. One thing it looks like you are missing out on is brain zaps.

 

One thing I have found to help me with insomnia - which I stumbled across somewhere - is a weighted blanket (they can be warm) and black out eyemasks unless you are in a very sleeping location. The weighted blanket is nice to wrap youself in when you are experiencing a lot of anxiety and body tremors.

 

Well - just swinging by to say hello. I hope your tomorrow is better.

 

Giuilietta

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

Hello, AuntieBea.

 

I don't understand why you went back to the 100mg tablet when you were acclimated to the 3/4 tablet plus liquid?

 

On 10/12/2019 at 9:38 AM, AuntieBea said:

Last Monday I started the taper...10% reduction. I felt so horrible on that first day that I backed off immediately.

 

What exactly were the symptoms that caused you to back off?

 

On 10/12/2019 at 9:38 AM, AuntieBea said:

From everything I’ve read here about Wellbutrin, it seems I am experiencing the really classic side effects of agitation, anxiety, palpitations, nervousness, insomnia, etc. in addition to high blood pressure and vision loss. This being the case, there’s a really urgent need for me to get off this drug, but...so far my efforts at tapering are leaving me nearly incapacitated with brain fog, dissociation, fatigue, depression and hopelessness in addition to all the other symptoms.....

 

You seem to have some very uncomfortable adverse effects. Maybe coping with "brain fog, dissociation, fatigue, depression and hopelessness" for a few days after a reduction would be worth it? Not sure if we can both 1) protect your health by helping you taper off Wellbutrin; 2) promise you that taper will be symptom-free.

[AuntieBea]

Hi Alto,

 

I’ll explain as simply as I can....

I went back to the 100mg tablet because acclimating to the liquid was going to be a seven week process (at least at its most conservative rate). I was one week into the process and then began to think that I was better off going back to the tablet and weighing the doses to start with because I could start the taper itself much more quickly.

 

Last Monday when I started the taper at a 10% reduction I had the usual symptoms of palpitations, anxiety, agitation, eye pain, etc. coupled with increasing depression, despair, and hopelessness.  Even though I know that it takes a few days for the body to register a dose reduction (that’s a rule of thumb, I think), I got scared and backed off the next day. My body is ultra sensitive to everything at this point, and I have been confused as to whether I am experiencing drug side effects or WD symptoms. I’ve been holding since last April thinking that my symptoms were WD symptoms. It’s taken me since then, after a useless round of blood pressure meds to finally figure out that’s it’s very likely the Wellbutrin that’s causing the problem in the first place. I have been confused as to what I am actually experiencing, drug side effects or WD symptoms, and so...

 

I decided to ere on the side of caution by backing off the 10% reduction. Then I tried a 2.5% reduction for a few days, again with what seemed like increasing symptoms, which is when I reached out for additional help from Gridley. I think my biggest mistake is that I did not actively reach out for help sooner. I’m trying to figure stuff out on my own based on everything I’ve read here on SA. But I am just stabbing away at what I think might be the problem and the solution, and as a result I don’t have any confidence that I’m doing the right thing when the going gets really rough.

 

I definitely don’t expect my taper to be symptom free. I am willing and able to tolerate and work with a high degree of discomfort if that’s what it takes. I think the critical thing for me is to actively stay in touch here and to be proceeding with some guidance, and the confidence that I am not just floundering around on my own. Already, after keeping a daily symptom chart for three days like Gridley suggested, I can see that my symptoms are every bit as unpredictable and various as they were on those days last week when I first attempted to taper, which makes me think it was an over reaction to have backed off. I also notice that after 2-3 hours of taking the Celexa and Wellbutrin there is a noticeable increase in the degree of the palpitations, agitation, eye pain, etc. They never seem to go away altogether, but intensify and then diminish much later into the evening.

 

Alto, I  hope I am making myself clear. I’m not thinking very well at the moment. I have truly been confused since April as to what these symptoms are about. My first impulse is always to be conservative with tapering so as to not create more problems. It wasn’t until Gridley suggested the other day that a faster taper rather than a slower one  might be in order, that I began to see it differently. I’m hoping you’ll be able to offer me some further guidance. What would you suggest...?

 

Thank you Alto. I am so deeply grateful to you and all the moderators at SA.

AuntieBea

 

 

 

 

[AuntieBea]

Day 2  Symptom Chart 10/13/190

 

  9:30 PM. Went to sleep.

12:30 AM. Woke up, went back to sleep.

  3:30 AM. Woke up, got up. Hot flushes.

  4:30 AM. Back to sleep.

  6:30 AM. Woke up. Palpitations, hot flushes, agitation.

  8:00 AM. Head throbbing. Left eye pain. Palpitations, hot feet. Depression, despair, dissociation. Brain fog, malaise.

  9:00 AM. Took 5.4mg Celexa/ 100mg Wellbutrin.

  9:15 AM. Breakfast.

12:30 PM. Significant eye pain. Headache. Full body palpitations, throbbing. Agitation, can’t concentrate.

  2:00 PM. Lunch

  3:00 PM. Significant eye pain, light sensitivity. Headache, palpitations, agitation, anxiety, brain fog, malaise.

  7:00 PM. Dinner

  7:30 PM. Symptoms continue as above.

  8:30 PM. Eye pain starting to diminish. Less agitation, anxiety.  Palpitations continue.

  9:00 PM. Sleep.

[AuntieBea]

Hi Guilietta,

 

It was so kind of you to stop by to say hello and welcome me back to SA! I’ve been a member for close to two years now but I am just learning now how to get around and socialize a bit with others. I am ordinarily such an introvert that it’s something I actually have to learn how to do...I am in such need of a support network now and find that friends and family in general don’t understand what I’m going through. It’s only here on this forum where I find the kind of support and help I really need.

 

I am struggling with a lot of symptoms. I’ve been holding for six months thinking WD symptoms had kicked in after several very uneventful months, but now after tons of research and unhappy experiences with blood pressure meds I’ve begun to understand that my symptoms (especially the high blood pressure and vision problems) are very likely a side effect of the Wellbutrin that I’m taking. That would indicate the need for a faster taper rather than a slower one. Anyway, I’m in a lot of confusion and trying to get things sorted out with help from the moderators.

 

I’m not taking Clonazepam any more. I tapered of that along with Seroquel a few years ago. But that was before I knew about SA.

Apparently it’s preferable to taper the SSRI’s first and then the benzos, but I didn’t know that then. I was following Heather Ashton’s advice at the time. I noticed that Errel did the same thing and Rhiannon mentioned to her that benzos do not let go of us easily, and that she would be extra sensitive now due to that past history. That helped me to better understand why I am probably so bizarrely sensitive at this point to any drug I put into my body. I see that you are taking a blood pressure med, and I guess you are tolerating it OK...? I couldn’t tolerate either of the ones I tried. They exacerbated all the symptoms I was already having.

 

That’s such a funny expression...the gift that keeps on giving!!! I actually had never thought of it in relationship to WD, but you are absolutely right about that. I guess my sense of humor hasn’t really gotten engaged yet regarding WD.... To me that’s a good sign that you are making really good progress in your healing. I so admire the way you seem to be able to get around and get to know people, and just since June. I actually had to ask Gridley the other day for some pointers about how to make friends on this forum (any forum), and he was kind enough to respond with some ideas. I am having to learn how to push past the resistance of my introverted self. 

 

I never have experienced brain zaps, but from the way you said it I’m guessing you have...? I haven’t yet gone over and read through your thread but I will so that I have a better idea of what you have been experiencing. I heard about brain zaps from a friend recently and they sound pretty awful. Also, I’ve heard about weighted blankets and did research them a bit but there were so many choices I got sort of overwhelmed. What kind do you have? It sounds like it would be really helpful for the anxiety and agitation type symptoms.

 

Thanks again for stopping by, and I hope each day gets better and better for you.

AuntieBea

 

 

[AuntieBea]

Day 3 Symptom Chart 10/14/19

 

  9:00 PM. Sleep (night before).

11:30 PM. Woke up. got up. Hot flushing, palpitations.

  1:00 AM. Back to bed. Up and down the rest of the night. Dozed off here and there.

  7:30 AM. Finally got up for the day. Palpitations. Headache, slight eye pain, light sensitivity.

  9:00 AM. Took 5.4mg Celexa and 100mg Wellbutrin.

  9:30 AM. Breakfast

12:00 PM. Significant eye pain. Increasing anxiety, agitation, headache, palpitations, etc.

  2:00 PM. Lunch.

  3:00 PM. Symptoms continue.

  6:00 PM. Significant eye pain continues. Other symptoms have begun to diminish.

  7:00 PM. Dinner.

  7:30 PM. Eye pain begins to diminish.

  9:00 PM. Eye pain starts up again. Other symptoms have diminished.

  9:e0 PM. Sleep

 

 

 

[Gridley]

9 minutes ago, AuntieBea said:

Significant eye pain

Eye pain is a common side effect of Wellbutrin.

[AuntieBea]

@Altostrata

Hello Alto,

 

I hope it is not too pushy for me to post this to your attention. I apologize if that is the case.

After responding to your questions yesterday I realized that my response was way too long and belabored. Here are more concise answers:

 

1) I went back to the 100mg tablet because acclimating to the liquid was going to be a seven week process (at least at its most      conservative rate). I was one week into the process and began to think I was better off going back to the tablet and weighing the doses to start with because I could start the taper itself much more quickly.

 

2) Palpitations, anxiety, agitation, depression, hopelessness, despair seemed particularly intense. I got scared. I thought maybe it was too much of a reduction. I see after paying attention to my own symptom chart the last three days that these very same symptoms come and go over and over again, so my reaction was clearly over the top. They intensify 2-3 hours after taking my meds in the morning, especially the eye pain, and then begin to diminish by evening. But at the time I didn’t have any confidence I was doing the right thing and I wasn’t actively in touch with any of the moderators to run it past them.

 

3) I really do want to taper off the Wellbutrin. I don’t expect it to be a symptom free process. Living with symptoms after a reduction is definitely worth it in order to protect my health. I just need to stay actively involved here on SA so I can run this sort of thing past the moderators instead of panicking. 

 

I’ve been living with these symptoms for six months.  I assumed they were WD symptoms and so began holding. I didn’t imagine that the symptoms I was experiencing might actually be being caused BY the drugs I was taking. That would argue for a faster taper rather than a slower one as Gridley suggested. Do you agree that this is what’s going on? I would like to start tapering again ASAP. 

 

Thank you for your help Alto!

 

[Giulietta]

Hello @AuntieBea

 

This is a bit of a long message - some of it as FYI only to be helpful.

 

It takes time to learn your way around SA and knowing how to connect with other people.  You can do this in settings so you will get a notice when someone joins - etc. And then you can pop by with a welcome message, etc. People new to SA particularly are like us - or like I was when I joined - really frightened about what's happening to them. They (and I) feel alone. I am also introverted (maybe I mentioned - I odn't remember!).  Another way to find people to connect with is to follow the moderators - and through their interactions you can look at some of the people they are working with. YOu may see someone whose situation resonates with yours or someone who may need a little extra TLC and support now.

 

My 'logic' in stopping the duloxetine first was because of the trauma of CT last summer and resinstatement. The side effects of reinstating were as horrible as when I first got on the drug in 2015. Ended up with flank pain and GI issues that landed me in a GI office (plus other stuff). Not complaining as I know I'm not the only one. When I saw a new MD in December - I mentioned I wanted off. He said he wanted to cross-taper me onto another drug in 2 weeks! He said he wanted to get me off the clonazepam. I held up a big stop sign. The proosed drug had the same side effectprofile as dulox - and my nervous system was dealing with enouogh - and clonazepam side effects were a known entity.  I didn't know that benzos should be the last to know and I am glad I did what I did - even if out of ignorance.

 

I can't contemplate tapering clonazepam now.

 

3 hours ago, AuntieBea said:

That’s such a funny expression...the gift that keeps on giving!!! I actually had never thought of it in relationship to WD,

 

I can have a bit of satirical wit - which doesn't always work out because I may be misunderstood. Maybe using emojis would help.

 

I have also said that 'people belong in jail' over ADs - from big pharma, agencies that approve them, and care providers who dispense them - particularly those who do not in clear and unambiguous terms notify patients of the consequences. I mean this half in jest and half in truth (more than half the truth!). That being said  - one thing I have learned is that drug companies under-report side effects.

 

Here is a link to the blank I purchased for myself:  

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07S1T9M84/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

YnM weighted blanket (15#, 48" x 72", twin size) forpeople who weigh around 140#.  Note that I purchased a heavier blanket that is recommended for my weight and I am glad I did. I believe my recommendation is 12#?  If you are a hot sleeper this company also makes one with bamboo.

 

A black-out eye mask really helps me. No screen time after 7 (pm) - TV is my occassoinal exception because some shows are relaxing and take your mind off life when nothing else does. I wear blue light blocking glasses. From 7 pm on - low lights. And positive thoughts only after 7. Our brains I am told remember what we ae thinking of the 3 hours preceding sleep. 

 

Learning meditation is also something that may help.

 

Don't be shy. A lot of people ont he site have beenon here for a long time so have developed friendships. If you are like me - it takes time to make friends.

 

Tapering takes a long time, WD effects hang on, and a lot of people stay on or come back to help others. I think anotehr element is perhaps that this is a way of dealing with difficult times and feelings of anxiety and depression that some of us may be prone to.  This may be relevant. Maybe @Gridley has an opinion about that.

 

One comment based on my own experience (and some others I know)   is that we all have a threshold for spending time on SA before it impacts our anxiety levels (or other symptoms). Do consider what is right for you. I have to curtail my time here and have decided that I will not be on after 3. My anxiety increases to the end of the day as it is.

 

Giulietta

 

[AuntieBea]

Thanks Gridley. I’ve read about that being a possible side effect of Wellbutrin. Coupled with the high blood pressure side effect causing other vision problems as well my poor eyes are really taking a hit. The pain is so intense in my right eye at the moment I can’t stand to keep it open. It clearly intensifies 2-3 hours after taking the Wellbutrin, as do the other symptoms. 

 

It’s helping me to to keep track of my symptom patterns by posting them daily. It seems there’s a clear connection between when I take the meds and when the symptoms are at their worst. I’d like to start the taper again, but am waiting to hear something specific from Alto before I do anything. I actually posted something to her attention earlier...I hope that’s not being too pushy. I have so much respect for her and what she’s doing for all of us out here, and I know she’s incredibly busy....

 

[AuntieBea]

Guilietta, thank you for your message...it made my day!!! And my day needed to be made, if you know what I mean....

i have so much pain in my eyes right now that I need to get off this computer for a while, so I won’t try to respond now. Will be in touch later on. Also...it just turned 3:00 I see, so you’ll be off line anyway. Good plan for taking care of yourself!!! 

 

 

 

[Giulietta]

Hi there. I got back on - another member - a nice lady in Canada I sent some notes to.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZMJdhe4xhQ

 

Sent this on my thread too.

[AuntieBea]

Day 4 Symptom Chart 10/15/19

 

  9:30 PM. Fell asleep (night before).

12:00 AM. Woke up. Got up. Hot flushing, throbbing, palpitations. No eye pain or headache.

12:45 AM. Back to bed. Up and down the rest of the night. Dozed off here and there. Terrible night.

  6:45 AM. Got up. Hot flushing throughout body. Super hot feet. Palpitations. Right eye pain, light sensitivity.

  9:00 AM. Took 5.4mg Celexa and 100mg Wellbutrin.

  9:30 AM. Breakfast.

11:30 AM. Headache. Hot feet. Increasing agitation, anxiety, palpitations. Exhausted. Falling apart.

  1:30 PM. Lunch. 

  2:30 PM. Head throbbing. Headache. Right eye in significant pain. Significant agitation, anxiety, palpitations. Brain fog.

  6:00 PM. Eye pain letting up. Other symptoms manageable. 

  6:30 PM. Dinner

  7:30 PM. Headache. Eye pain continues. Other symptoms are manageable.

  9:00 PM. Calm. Minimal symptoms. Slight headache, eye pain. Realize that I feel somewhat “normal”. Maybe this is what is 

                   called “WD normal”...?

10:30 PM. Went to bed.

                  

I had such a lovely window last night.... 

Realized around 9:00 PM that I was feeling rather normal. What a surprise after so many days of being foggy headed and feeling “brain dead” like I couldn’t think, or concentrate, or connect with life at all. The physical symptoms also abated, but never, have I ever felt so grateful for what is simply a normal state of mind. Such grace!!!

I suspect that’s why I couldn’t sleep...I was just too excited about feeling well. I wanted to experience that as long as possible!

[AuntieBea]

Day 5 Symptom Chart 10/16/19

 

10:00 PM. Sleep (night before).

11:00 PM. Got up. Not sleeping. Minimal symptoms. Eye pain has backed off. Thinking clearly, no brain fog.

  1:00 AM. Fell asleep in recliner for 45 min.

  1:45 AM. Back to bed. Fell asleep.

  6:00 AM. Woke up. Intense hot flushing throughout my body. Intense palpitations, heart thumping (this very often 

                    happens when I wake up in the AM (cortisol spikes...?).

  7:00 AM. Got up. Diminished flushing, palpitations. Slight headache, otherwise minimal symptoms.

  9:00 AM. Feeling well overall. Postponing taking meds so I can get some things done.

10:00 AM. Starting to feel shaky. Waited too long to eat.

10:15 AM. Breakfast.

10:30 AM. Took 5.4mg Celexa/100mg Wellbutrin.

  3:00 PM. Lunch. Very minimal symptoms since taking meds at 10:30 AM. Feeling quite normal. 

  7:00 PM. Dinner. Very minimal symptoms all afternoon. Continue to feel quite normal.

  8:30 PM. Bed.

 

Last night’s window continued throughout the day. My head is clear, I feel like my mind is accessible to me for the first time in days...it is such a relief and a joy just to feel somewhat “normal”!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

[AuntieBea]

Day 6 Symptom Chart 10/17/19

 

  8:30 PM. Sleep (night before).

  2:00 AM. Woke up, got up. Intense heat, flushing. Palpitations. 

  4:00 AM. Ate cereal. Went back to bed. Didn’t sleep.

  6:00 AM. Got up. Brain fog, anxiety, agitation. Light sensitivity. 

  9:45 AM. Took 5.4mg Celexa/100mg Wellbutrin.

10:00 AM. Breakfast. 

10:45 AM. Symptoms continue with increased anxiety, agitation. Brain fog. Palpitations. Headache, right eye pain.

 

i don’t have any more notes for the rest of this day. Symptoms continued all day long. There was also a highly charged emotional situation going on all day, so it very possible that everything felt more intense as a result. It was definitely not the same as yesterday’s window though....

[AuntieBea]

@Gridley

Hello again, AuntieBea here,

 

I  posted my symptom chart for six days and am wondering if I should continue. Alto posted me a few questions which I answered as well as I could, but I haven’t heard anything more from her.

 

I’d like to start tapering again unless what I’m experiencing indicates I should continue to hold. 

 

On 10/14/2019 at 9:32 AM, Altostrata said:

You seem to have some very uncomfortable adverse effects. Maybe coping with "brain fog, dissociation, fatigue, depression and hopelessness" for a few days after a reduction would be worth it? Not sure if we can both 1) protect your health by helping you taper off Wellbutrin; 2) promise you that taper will be symptom-free.

 

I’m not asking that the taper be symptom free. I would just like some guidance going forward to be sure I’m not digging myself in deeper by doing too much, too fast. 

Wondering what you would suggest at this point?

 

 

[Altostrata]

AB, it appears you have adverse effects from the Wellbutrin or Wellbutin-Celexa combination you take in the morning.

 

It appears you always took Celexa with Wellbutrin? Doctors love to combine buproprion with SSRIs but neglect to pay attention to the very common drug-drug interactions. It's not a good drug combination.

 

https://www.drugs.com/drug-interactions/celexa-with-wellbutrin-679-335-440-203.html?professional=1

Quote

Drug Interactions between Celexa and Wellbutrin

Interactions between your drugs

Major

buPROPion citalopram

Applies to: Wellbutrin (bupropion) and Celexa (citalopram)

MONITOR CLOSELY: The use of bupropion is associated with a dose-related risk of seizures. The risk may be further increased when coadministered with other agents that can reduce the seizure threshold, including selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) such as citalopram and escitalopram. ....Likewise, in clinical trials, an overall seizure incidence of approximately 0.1% has been reported with extended-release (XL) bupropion hydrochloride at dosages up to 450 mg/day and approximately 0.39% at 450 mg/day. The 0.4% seizure incidence may exceed that of other marketed antidepressants by as much as 4-fold.

Pharmacokinetically, bupropion may increase the plasma concentrations of citalopram. The mechanism of interaction has not been described. Unlike other SSRIs, citalopram is not known to be significantly metabolized by CYP450 2D6, which is inhibited by bupropion and its metabolite, hydroxybupropion. In one study, bupropion increased citalopram peak plasma concentration (Cmax) and systemic exposure (AUC) by 30% and 40%, respectively. Citalopram did not affect the pharmacokinetics of bupropion and its three active metabolites. The interaction has not been studied with escitalopram.

 

 

Do you know how Celexa affects you on its own?

 

My guess is that separating your Celexa dose from the Wellbutrin dose might reduce the symptoms you tend to report a couple of hours later. You would not want to take Wellbutrin later in the day, it may keep you from sleeping at night. Can you move the Wellbutrin dose gradually until you're taking it at 9 a.m.? How does it affect your appetite?

 

The other option would be to gradually move the Celexa dose later in the day -- but that might affect your sleep as well. Some people find citalopram alone makes them drowsy, has that been your experience?

[AuntieBea]

Hello @Guilietta

 

Days later I’m getting back to you. I have been in emotional upheaval for the last three days and just getting back to “normal” now. All of life’s usual ups and downs continue on despite the fact that what I really need right now is a calm, stable environment in which to heal. But the upheaval in this case was all about old abandonment issues which are also asking to be healed at this point in my life...so it seems to be all part of the package for me right now.

 

Thanks for the long message you sent the other day with so many helpful tips about finding my way around SA, and also for the tapering process itself. I went to the link you sent for the weighted blanket...and I did buy one, just like yours, and it arrived...and I slept with it for the first time last night. OMG...was that ever money well spent!! I felt so terrible before bed that I was pretty sure I wouldn’t sleep, but sure enough I fell sound asleep under that thing, and even though I woke up a couple of times I was able to go right back to sleep. Amazing!!! It makes such a difference, of course, to have slept the night before. I have had so many sleepless nights for the last six months that there’s anxiety just anticipating going to bed. I know I’m not alone with my sleepless nights either....it seems to affect everyone in WD.

 

For now, this is just a short, catching up a little bit note Guilietta. I am thinking of you and hope that you are doing well today.

And by the way, is it Guilietta or Giulietta...?

 

AuntieBea

 

[AuntieBea]

Hello @Altostrata

 

42 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

 

It appears you always took Celexa with Wellbutrin? Doctors love to combine buproprion with SSRIs but neglect to pay attention to the very common drug-drug interactions. It's not a good drug combination.

 

 I have never taken Celexa without Wellbutrin. They were prescribed together in 2004. I also have always taken them together at the same time each day. So I do not know how the Celexa affects me on it’s own.

 

50 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Can you move the Wellbutrin dose gradually until you're taking it at 9 a.m.? How does it affect your appetite?

 

The other option would be to gradually move the Celexa dose later in the day -- but that might affect your sleep as well. Some people find citalopram alone makes them drowsy, has that been your experience?

 

Yes, I can begin taking the Wellbutrin earlier in the AM, like 9:00. I always do take it in the morning, but sometimes it’s as late as 10:00 or 10:30.

 

My appetite has been a challenge for many years. I have to be diligent about eating regularly. I don’t really have an appetite...I eat because I know I have to. I always attributed this to stress But it very possibly began when I first started taking Wellbutrin in 1997 (it was added to Prozac back then). 

 

Sleep is already a big challenge, but I could experiment with taking the Celexa later in the day and report on how that goes. If that’s a good idea, what time would you suggest? I’ve never taken it alone so I don’t have any idea what will happen, whether it will make me drowsy or not.

 

1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

. In one study, bupropion increased citalopram peak plasma concentration (Cmax) and systemic exposure (AUC) by 30% and 40%,

 

This means Wellbutrin can increase the effect of the Celexa by 30%-40%...? I wish I understood all of this better, but somehow I am guessing it is part of the picture that will help determine the best way for me to proceed with tapering.

 

Thanks for the information about bupropion/citalopram interactions. My doctor didn’t indicate that there was any potential risk.

Pretty scary.

 

Thanks Alto!