Tao of the Brassmonkey

[Longroadhome]

On 6/1/2019 at 8:45 PM, brassmonkey said:

I think I've mentioned this before, but this time it's meant with a lot of positive responses so I will repost it here so it will become part of the Tao.  Many people express concern that their life has been ruined by ADWD.  My feeling is, only if you let it and explain it this way:

 

Many years ago when I was in film school I took a course in writing and directing motion pictures.  One of the main points that was made during the course was "there is the film you imagine in your mind, the film you write and the film that actually gets produced". Over the course of my life I have learned that this is more than true for the "life you actually live".  For people making it through ADWD, we are being given a very valuable second chance at life.  We have had our lives cruelly ripped apart down to the very foundations, but now we get to rebuild them with a much greater knowledge of just what is important and what isn't.  We also have developed an inner strength that is amazing.  After ADWD nothing will be this hard ever again.  So please don't convince yourself that your life is ruined. It is changed, yes, and not what you planned, but the possibilities, oh the possibilities, and we just have to take control and make them happen.

Thank you for this post Brass you keep me going 

can I ask a question please

i have  been offered steroid injections to some damage I have in my elbow and hip called Bursitis. 

Is a steroid injection ok to have while going through wd. 

Im holding on  Paxil 8:4 mg from February from a too fast taper . 

Obviously don’t want steroid if it’s going to make my symptoms worse.

 

one other question can anxiety and depression go up and down in severity during wd even though I’m holding and haven’t made any changes as it has worsened over a few weeks from being low level  for no apparent reason ?

thank you for continuing to support us . 

[brassmonkey]

We've seen a lot of mixed results from steroid injections here.  Some people have very bad reactions while others they help.  I would be very careful myself. Have you tried a topical gel such as Voltarn or Arnica Gel?  

 

Anxiety and depression will come and go as they see fit.  There is no pattern to them.  Some people report getting them at specific times during the day while others have them nonstop for weeks on end.  I've had it both ways, neither is any fun.  My 8, 12 and 18 month waves were all intense anxiety that started one day, lasted for several weeks and then died out over several days. All I could do was accept that the anxiety was there and go about my life as best as I could.  With a little practice it can be ignored for the most part.

[mdwstrx]

Hi Tom.

Can you recall the longest you were especially symptomatic and on hold after a cut?  Been two weeks here after 4th cut with no sign of let up.  Then there is the question of when to taper again when it does clear after such a strong reaction.  Just learning my reaction to your slide method.

Thanks!

[brassmonkey]

If you are still symptomatic then it would be a good idea to hold a bit longer.  It's best if the symptoms can return to WDnormal before the next reduction. It can take several reductions for a pattern to show up and work out a bit of fine tuning on the timing of reductions and holds.

 

I was really lucky in that once I really got going my symptoms would usually resolve beck to WDnormal in the final two week time frame.  But that was after I had worked my way out of poopout.  During that time I was just blindly following my planned taper and hoping for the best. During that time my symptoms were all over the place minute by minute, hour by hour things would change. It took about two and a half years before I was really aware that things were improving and a pattern was beginning to show up after each reduction.

[mdwstrx]

I have no choice but to wait since symptoms are pretty are rough and noticeable to others. 

Will spare details but suffice it to say I'm needing to keep a low profile. 

Living alone, it's hard to get out of your own head. 🤔

I don't know how you walked through this before things settled more for you.  You have my admiration!

Thanks for your feedback.

[Longroadhome]

On 6/3/2019 at 7:58 PM, brassmonkey said:

We've seen a lot of mixed results from steroid injections here.  Some people have very bad reactions while others they help.  I would be very careful myself. Have you tried a topical gel such as Voltarn or Arnica Gel?  

 

Anxiety and depression will come and go as they see fit.  There is no pattern to them.  Some people report getting them at specific times during the day while others have them nonstop for weeks on end.  I've had it both ways, neither is any fun.  My 8, 12 and 18 month waves were all intense anxiety that started one day, lasted for several weeks and then died out over several days. All I could do was accept that the anxiety was there and go about my life as best as I could.  With a little practice it can be ignored for the most part.

I’m looking into the topical gel now so thank you. 

Brass you talk about “real recovery” happening once off medication so can I ask you; I hit poop out 10 months ago on Paxil then a too fast taper led to heightened symptoms . I’ve held at 8.4mg Paxil since Feb 2019. Do I hold now until I have no symptoms then continue Will that ever happen while still on Paxil and having poop out? 

You said it took you 2.5 years to navigate your way out of poop out while tapering before starting to experience some kind of stability while continuing to decrease. 

Therefore do I now continue to taper using the sliding scale because I started with poop out and it’s not going to get better unless I decrease and get off Paxil? 

In other words would homeostasis happen while still on this drug and having hit poop out, if I hold? Or indeed any kind of stability ? 

I value your opinion as my journey with poop out and Paxil is similar to yours. 

Thank you so much for the strength you give to us through your messages. You are my hero. 

[brassmonkey]

Hi LRH -- this is just a quick note to say that I'm not ignoring your question, but rather because there have been a lot of questions about tapering out of poopout lately I am going to take a few days and write up a proper answer for everyone to read.

 

I'm really losing track of what I've done before.  Here is a link to it:

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/17909-are-we-there-yet-how-long-is-withdrawal-going-to-take/?tab=comments#comment-354114

 

Edited June 8, 2019 by brassmonkey
added link

[sunnysideup69]

10 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

Hi LRH -- this is just a quick note to say that I'm not ignoring your question, but rather because there have been a lot of questions about tapering out of poopout lately I am going to take a few days and write up a proper answer for everyone to read.

 

I'm really losing track of what I've done before.  Here is a link to it:

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/17909-are-we-there-yet-how-long-is-withdrawal-going-to-take/?tab=comments#comment-354114

 

 

Thanks Brassmonkey, this link is really helpful. Seems like stabilisation can take a loooooong time. Reassures me somewhat. Hope you are doing well today. Many thanks for all your contributions to this site. 

[Longroadhome]

On 6/8/2019 at 8:48 PM, brassmonkey said:

Hi LRH -- this is just a quick note to say that I'm not ignoring your question, but rather because there have been a lot of questions about tapering out of poopout lately I am going to take a few days and write up a proper answer for everyone to read.

 

I'm really losing track of what I've done before.  Here is a link to it:

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/17909-are-we-there-yet-how-long-is-withdrawal-going-to-take/?tab=comments#comment-354114

 

Brass you talk about “real recovery” happening once off medication so can I ask you; I hit poop out 10 months ago on Paxil then a too fast taper led to heightened symptoms . I’ve held at 8.4mg Paxil since Feb 2019. Do I hold now until I have no symptoms then continue Will that ever happen while still on Paxil and having poop out? 

You said it took you 2.5 years to navigate your way out of poop out while tapering before starting to experience some kind of stability while continuing to decrease. 

Therefore do I now continue to taper using the sliding scale because I started with poop out and it’s not going to get better unless I decrease and get off Paxil? 

In other words would homeostasis happen while still on this drug and having hit poop out, if I hold? Or indeed any kind of stability ? 

I value your opinion as my journey with poop out and Paxil is similar to yours. 

Thank you so much for the strength you give to us through your messages. You are my hero.

 

have I missed the post Brass ? 

[brassmonkey]

Hi LRH-- Sorry it's taken so long to get back to you.  Most of the information is in the link I sent.  

 

Poopout is a weird situation in which the body and the drug are fighting for control.  It actually is a form of withdrawal because the body has started to find ways around the affects of the drug and is trying to function normally while the drug is trying to make it function the way it wants it to.  The only way to change the situation is to reduce the amount of the drug in a slow manner so the body can make the changes necessary to function with out it, but not reducing enough to increase the WD symptoms.  So in effect the only way to get out of poopout is to reduce the dose of the drug.

 

Homeostasis will happen eventually, once the drug has been reduced to the point that the body has regained control.  For me that took 2.5 years because I was on a very large dose, 40mg, and had been in poopout for several years.  I don't think you will need that long to stabilize. Your body will be recovering all the while during your taper, you just might not feel it until things stabilize.  As long as there is some of the drug present in your body it will be causing some  negative affect.  Which is why "real recovery" can't happen until you are completely off of the drug.

 

Your best bet would be to start a slow gentle taper and let your body start to sort things out.  I would suggest the Brassmonkey Slide Method because it is really good at reducing the symptoms that accompany each reduction.  This would be to reduce by 2.5% a week for four weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks.  This will give a total reduction of 10% every six weeks.  Which is a bit slower than our recommended 10% taper, but will still move the reduction rate along at a good speed. I wouldn't expect the symptoms to clear up with just a few reductions, but you shouldn't get any big increase either.  Typically there will be a spike in symptoms a couple of days after each decrease, but that spike should drop off by the time the next reduction is called for. If you do get a very large increase in symptoms then doing smaller reductions would be called for, say 1.25% a week on the same schedule.

[crashcourse]

9 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

Poopout is a weird situation in which the body and the drug are fighting for control.  It actually is a form of withdrawal because the body has started to find ways around the affects of the drug and is trying to function normally while the drug is trying to make it function the way it wants it to.  The only way to change the situation is to reduce the amount of the drug in a slow manner so the body can make the changes necessary to function with out it, but not reducing enough to increase the WD symptoms.  So in effect the only way to get out of poopout is to reduce the dose of the drug.

 

Homeostasis will happen eventually, once the drug has been reduced to the point that the body has regained control. 

 

For some reason I can't get my head around the meaning of poop-out. Reading above doesn't it imply that poop-out and WD are the same, since symptoms will be the same?

 

I am currently tapering and I get WD effects every now and then esp when cutting. So how do I differentiate WD from poop-out? 

[brassmonkey]

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/17909-are-we-there-yet-how-long-is-withdrawal-going-to-take/?tab=comments#comment-354114

 

Poopout is a special case of Withdrawal that happens after a person has been taking the drug for an extended period of time.  The above link has a good explanation.

[Longroadhome]

14 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

Hi LRH-- Sorry it's taken so long to get back to you.  Most of the information is in the link I sent.  

 

Poopout is a weird situation in which the body and the drug are fighting for control.  It actually is a form of withdrawal because the body has started to find ways around the affects of the drug and is trying to function normally while the drug is trying to make it function the way it wants it to.  The only way to change the situation is to reduce the amount of the drug in a slow manner so the body can make the changes necessary to function with out it, but not reducing enough to increase the WD symptoms.  So in effect the only way to get out of poopout is to reduce the dose of the drug.

 

Homeostasis will happen eventually, once the drug has been reduced to the point that the body has regained control.  For me that took 2.5 years because I was on a very large dose, 40mg, and had been in poopout for several years.  I don't think you will need that long to stabilize. Your body will be recovering all the while during your taper, you just might not feel it until things stabilize.  As long as there is some of the drug present in your body it will be causing some  negative affect.  Which is why "real recovery" can't happen until you are completely off of the drug.

 

Your best bet would be to start a slow gentle taper and let your body start to sort things out.  I would suggest the Brassmonkey Slide Method because it is really good at reducing the symptoms that accompany each reduction.  This would be to reduce by 2.5% a week for four weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks.  This will give a total reduction of 10% every six weeks.  Which is a bit slower than our recommended 10% taper, but will still move the reduction rate along at a good speed. I wouldn't expect the symptoms to clear up with just a few reductions, but you shouldn't get any big increase either.  Typically there will be a spike in symptoms a couple of days after each decrease, but that spike should drop off by the time the next reduction is called for. If you do get a very large increase in symptoms then doing smaller reductions would be called for, say 1.25% a week on the same schedule.

Thank you. 

The time you dedicate to this site is so very much appreciated . 

You’re my bright star on a dark road. 

[Sassenach]

Hi Sunshine.

 

Just checking in.

Hope the road is not too dark today.

I could really do with a laugh so how about this.

I nearly called you my ray of brummy sunshine,  then I realised some are unhappy with the description,

Could be worse though, you could live in Goole. Sorry best I can manage.

I don't really know why I am writing this cos no doubt you are out painting the town. OMG now I am talking to myself on the bloody computer.

Byeeeeeeeeeee

 

 

SAS

[Sassenach]

Sorry Brass wrong thread.

[elbee]

Another related word for poopout might be tolorance?

Edited June 16, 2019 by elbee

[brassmonkey]

Yes elbee that should be pointed out.

[Longroadhome]

14 hours ago, Sassenach said:

Sorry Brass wrong thread.

Serves you right for being nosy how did you find me over here ? 

[brassmonkey]

Lately we have had a number of questions about weighing doses and making calculations for the desired reduction.  These posts have been very hard to follow because of the manner in which the numbers were written.  Hopefully this will help bring us all together so we are talking about the same things.

 

How to Write Weights and Measures

 

There are a number of conventions throughout the scientific community in regards to weights and measures.  We have adopted several of them here at SA and have added several of our own that are specific to the calculations that we do on a daily basis.  We need all of our members to adhere to these conventions so we can have clear communication as to what doses and what reductions members are working with.  This makes it easier for the moderators to understand each individual situation and greatly reduces the time we have to spend searching for information, deciphering what is being talked about, asking for clarifications and reduces the chance of our making a miscalculation. When members write about doses and weights it is very easy to get the decimal points and mg designations intermixed, however that can lead to doses being badly miscalculated.

 

The scales we use are actually programmed to give a readout in grams.  So a reading with nothing on the scale would be 00.000 grams. We can make measurements in milligrams by reading the three places to the right of the decimal point.  00.000.  The places on the readout are designated as:

 

10 grams:     10.000  Which is written as 10g

1 gram           01.000  Which is written as 1g

1 decigram   00.100  Which is written as 100mg

1 centigram  00.010  Which is written as 10mg

1 milligram   00.001  Which is written as 1mg

 

If your readout shows a weight of 00.625 it is written as either as .625 g or the preferred way as 625mg  If you try to combine the two and write it as .625mg you would be referring to a weight 1/1000th the size that you actually measured and cause a lot of confusion. To keep everyone on the same page and make communications easier we prefer that the designation xxxmg be used when talking about any weight.

 

There are two components to measure when weighting out a dose.  Those are 1; the actual weight of the dose as measured on the scales and 2; the strength of the dose.  Both of which are measured in milligrams.  To keep them separate, so we know which one is being talked about, we mark each weight as to what it is.  That is done as follows:

 

mgpw: milligrams pill weight, this is the actual weight that is measured on the scale.  For example the Paxil tablets I used weighed 500mg each so I would write it as 500mgpw.

 

mgai: milligrams active ingredient, this is the strength of the dose. For a full tablet it is stated on the bottle.  My Paxil tablets were 40mg in strength, so I would write it as       40mgai.

 

I know that adhering to conventions is a real bother, but in our case it's very important.  Not doing so can lead to a lot of confusion and possible wrong doses which could cause people a lot on undue pain.  It also makes it easier for the moderators to double check each others work with out having to spent a lot of extra time sorting through and trying to understand what is being calculated.

[brassmonkey]

Just a note for my own records.  The Star Wars Battle Field (the place they zapped the kidney stone with ultrasonics and lasers) is really hurting today.  It started flaring up a couple of days ago and is quite uncomfortable today.  Had an ultra sound scan last week and see the doctor about it tomorrow.  Also having a minor wave with some nice depression and bad sleep. I think that is more situational than WD though.

[Frogie]

29 minutes ago, brassmonkey said:

Just a note for my own records.  The Star Wars Battle Field (the place they zapped the kidney stone with ultrasonics and lasers) is really hurting today.  It started flaring up a couple of days ago and is quite uncomfortable today.  Had an ultra sound scan last week and see the doctor about it tomorrow.  Also having a minor wave with some nice depression and bad sleep. I think that is more situational than WD though.

Brassmonkey:

 

I hope everything turns out alright at the dr tomorrow and your little wave resolves soon.

 

Take care,

 Frogie xx

[Rabe]

Keep us posted, Brass...hoping they find out what the heck is going on and take care of it .... really take care of it so you have some relief!  Been going on for quite some time!  

[brassmonkey]

The wave has pretty much run it's course. so that's over with.  Off to the doctor on a few.

[elbee]

Thinking of you Brass ❤️🙏

[brassmonkey]

Thanks Elbee,  Got a clean bill o' health from the doctor. Ultrasounds show that everything is fine.  We figure that the pains are residual affects from the Star Wars Treatment and are just going to need time to settle out.  I go back in a couple of months for a follow up and if I'm not better then we will up the game.

[Frogie]

1 hour ago, brassmonkey said:

Thanks Elbee,  Got a clean bill o' health from the doctor. Ultrasounds show that everything is fine.  We figure that the pains are residual affects from the Star Wars Treatment and are just going to need time to settle out.  I go back in a couple of months for a follow up and if I'm not better then we will up the game.

Good to hear! Glad everything was ok.

[nick1990]

Bugger about the whole Star Wars situation. Take it easy mate ! 

[brassmonkey]

@Gridleyhas  asked me about the final few reductions of my taper so I though it would be best to answer here for all to see.

 

 

According to my records it was 3mgpw (I'll correct my signature)  The scales would only be accurate to 4mgpw which is why I had to start visually dividing the powder to get the smaller doses.  Because of that it was easiest to work in 1mgpw increments for the rest of the taper.  It was an incredibly small amount of powder for each dose.

 

I would decrease by 1mgpw every four weeks with no additional hold. I think I actually held some of the doses for six weeks but I don't have records.  We were doing a bunch of International travel at the time so it was pretty hard to maintain any consistency.  By the time I got down to a 1mgpw dose it was actually more bother than it was worth to make up the capsules and take them, so I forced myself to go four weeks at that level and then just quit.

 

According to the AIC ration that 1mgpw was an effective dose of 0.08mgai which isn't much, especially when compared to the 40mgai is originally started with.

[brassmonkey]

Checking in to let everyone know that things are fine here.  The earthquake was about a hundred miles north of us.  We've felt a couple of good shakes but no damage. I hope all the other members around the SoCal area are safe.  The video on the news is showing damage that is pretty localized north of here.  Other than that it's just made a lot of people very nervous.

[brassmonkey]

Putting the finishing touches on packing.  We are leaving in a couple of days for a three week driving tour of the American South West, Arizona and New Mexico in particular.  We won't be too far off the beaten track (yea, sure) so I don't know how our connectivity will be.  I'll be checking in when I get the chance, but posting will be sparse through the end of the month.

[Longroadhome]

9 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

Putting the finishing touches on packing.  We are leaving in a couple of days for a three week driving tour of the American South West, Arizona and New Mexico in particular.  We won't be too far off the beaten track (yea, sure) so I don't know how our connectivity will be.  I'll be checking in when I get the chance, but posting will be sparse through the end of the month.

Have a wonderful vacation . Sounds amazing. 

LRH 

[Rabe]

Have a great trip and a safe trip BM!!!  Take care!  Thank you again for your posts!🦋

[street129]

On 8/8/2019 at 12:58 AM, brassmonkey said:

Putting the finishing touches on packing.  We are leaving in a couple of days for a three week driving tour of the American South West, Arizona and New Mexico in particular.  We won't be too far off the beaten track (yea, sure) so I don't know how our connectivity will be.  I'll be checking in when I get the chance, but posting will be sparse through the end of the month.

@brassmonkey 

hi have a beautiful great trip, and I will be here when you return, I came on to let you know I have not started my taper as yet,

I believe I told you I want to start in september, I'm still going acupuncture, and will tried my test of filling my new empty pill over the weekend,

I haven't been here in a while, the weather is the worst  having breathing problem from it.

I won't send you any posts till you return. Enjoy.

[DMV64]

Have a lovely trip! Sounds wonderful!!

xo

DMV

[Narcissus]

I returned to this story today while trying to work up the courage to start my Effexor taper.  Thank you, BrassMonkey, for telling this success story.  

[getofflex]

Brass monkey, thanks for giving us all hope.  Thanks also for sticking around the forum and helping those of us still struggling to get off these drugs and give guidance.