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Video: Irving Kirsch and placebo effect on CBS / 60 Minutes February 2012


fefesmom

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Video:

 

CBS channel:

 

Treating Depression: Is there a placebo effect?

 

I just saw a news item on CBS This Morning. Irving Kirsch, an MD researcher at Harvard, who wrote The Emperor's New Drugs, is going to be on 60 Minutes Sunday Feb. 19 talking about the placebo effect vs. antidpressants and how the former is just as good as the latter in all but very severe depression. Very interesting and bound to make for some interesting responses from MDs, drug companies etc. who support ads.

 

Edited by ChessieCat
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I just saw a news item on CBS This Morning. Irving Kirsch, an MD researcher at Harvard, who wrote The Emperor's New Drugs, is going to be on 60 Minutes Sunday Feb. 19 talking about the placebo effect vs. antidpressants and how the former is just as good as the latter in all but very severe depression. Very interesting and bound to make for some interesting responses from MDs, drug companies etc. who support ads.

 

Thanks, I will try to remember to watch this.

 

Yup, you know our "friends" will be out in full force.

 

CS

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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Thanks for the heads up! You have motivated me to get my TV hooked up to all that digital stuff Comcast insists I must use. Dang, those cables are difficult to work with!

Psychotropic drug history: Pristiq 50 mg. (mid-September 2010 through February 2011), Remeron (mid-September 2010 through January 2011), Lexapro 10 mg. (mid-February 2011 through mid-December 2011), Lorazepam (Ativan) 1 mg. as needed mid-September 2010 through early March 2012

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Hanlon's Razor


Introduction: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1588-introducing-jemima/

 

Success Story: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6263-success-jemima-survives-lexapro-and-dr-dickhead-too/

Please note that I am not a medical professional and my advice is based on personal experience, reading, and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers.

 

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Thanks for the alert. This will be fascinating.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Yup, you know our "friends" will be out in full force.

What's that I hear? It's the bat-mobile revving up. Ron Pies is on the case!

Been on SSRIs since 1998:

1998-2005: Paxil in varying doses

2005-present: Lexapro.

2006-early '08: Effexor AND Lexapro! Good thing I got off the Effexor rather quickly (within a year).

 

**PSYCHIATRY: TAKE YOUR CHEMICAL IMBALANCE AND CHOKE ON IT!

APA=FUBAR

FDA=SNAFU

NIMH=LMFAO

 

Currently tapering Lexapro ~10% every month:

 

STARTING: 15 mg

11/7/10: 13.5 mg

12/7/10: 12.2 mg

1/6/11: 10.9 mg

2/3/11: 9.8 mg

3/3/11: 8.8 mg

4/1/11: 7.8 mg

4/29/11: 7 mg

5/27/11: 6.4 mg

6/24/11: 5.7 mg

7/22/11: 5 mg

8/18/11: 4.5 mg

9/14/11: 4 mg

10/13/11: 3.6 mg

11/9/11: 3.2 mg

12/7/11: 2.6 mg

1/3/12: 2.1 mg

2/2/12: 1.8 mg

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Yup, you know our "friends" will be out in full force.

What's that I hear? It's the bat-mobile revving up. Ron Pies is on the case!

 

Oh Cine, thank you for a good laugh.

 

Great to see you posting by the way.

 

CS

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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Thanks for posting and, as always, Cine, appreciate your comments. Wish we could all be in same place watching together-- imagine the cheers and jeers! Cable already hooked up. ;-)

Just pulled up the CBS news release about Lesley Stahl interviewing Kirsch.....Quote by 'Stahl' against ADs.... I thought 'STEVEN S. said that???' OY-- not awake yet!

Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc).

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I couldn't find the original post for this show on placebos and antidepressants, so I'm posting here to ask if someone will please write a review. I've been trying to get my digital cable box hooked up all afternoon and it isn't working. SIGH.

Psychotropic drug history: Pristiq 50 mg. (mid-September 2010 through February 2011), Remeron (mid-September 2010 through January 2011), Lexapro 10 mg. (mid-February 2011 through mid-December 2011), Lorazepam (Ativan) 1 mg. as needed mid-September 2010 through early March 2012

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Hanlon's Razor


Introduction: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1588-introducing-jemima/

 

Success Story: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6263-success-jemima-survives-lexapro-and-dr-dickhead-too/

Please note that I am not a medical professional and my advice is based on personal experience, reading, and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers.

 

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Everybody watching this tonight -- please take notes for Jemima!

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Better than notes:

 

CBS channel:

 

Treating Depression: Is there a placebo effect?

 

 

I will hold off on comments until the West Coast folks have seen the show.

 

CS

 

Edited by ChessieCat
updated link

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Absolutely had to chime in here before I hit the rack:

 

OK, a few things I've already noticed and predicted in the aftermath of this story. The reactions to the story by the commenters in the CBS news thread really do fit the pattern of the reactions to past high-profile media bombshells on AD efficacy:

 

1) There is a sizable group of people who insist they have "real" depression and don't realize psychiatry has never to this date reached a consensus on what "real" depression is. They don't realize that depression is relative, yet absolute to everyone re if you're depressed, of course it feels "real." Well, perhaps it is "real" but only to you, and mileage will vary on how you experience depression. And these people really need to stop qualifying their claims of "real" depression with unscientific statements like, "I am one of those people that has true depression because I know I have a chemical imbalance and/or physiological defect."

2) This same group of people who insist the ADs work for them and it's not placebo always fail to realize the key clarification Kirsch and others (including Whitaker) make: they are not saying the meds don't work. Instead, they are saying that for MOST PEOPLE (that is, people who are not severely, melancholically depressed), the meds don't work any better than a sugar pill. They do indeed elicit a response for these non-severely depressed people, but it's just the placebo response. And for the severely depressed, these meds have been proven to beat placebo.

 

To quote Kirsch from the 60 Minutes interview (emphasis mine): "The difference between the effect of a placebo and the effect of an antidepressant is minimal for most people." And a quote from Kirsch in Whitaker's Anatomy of an Epidemic:

 

"Given these data, there seems little evidence to support the prescription of antidepressant medication to any but the most severely depressed patients, unless alternative treatments have failed to provide benefit," Kirsch and his collaborators concluded.

 

Look: I don't even think that's much of a damning statement, really: it's common sense that for those only mildly/moderately depressed, non-pharmacological interventions like diet, meditation, exercise work best. Hell, as the 60 Minutes piece showed, England has taken this fact to heart and changed its prescription protocols. Kirsch's and Whitaker's revelations are only shocking when you factor in the corruption and realize that the pharmaceutical companies pulled off (in my opinion) the greatest medical con in the history of medicine by convincing the public that anyone on the depression spectrum could benefit from ADs, thus pathologizing modern life. The sociological/economic/medical impact of this cannot be overstated and will no doubt take decades to unsnarl -- IF it's addressed at all. What I'd really like to see is an hour-long 60 Minutes special dedicated entirely to a 1-boring-old-manlike expose of the dizzying history of corruption in psychiatry and the devastating toll it has on innocent patients (including children). But even then I don't know if it would have much impact because this country is in such deep denial. Honestly, I think the biggest tragedy and danger is the moral inertia: good psychiatrists like Joel Hassman and good physicians like Mark Foster get ostracized and lose their jobs over doing the right thing and sounding the alarm bell that something is deeply, deeply wrong here. As long as this moral cowardice continues, this country doesn't stand a chance of getting back to optimum health. Remember, it takes two to tango: the corrupt pharmaceutical overlords and a morally sluggish physician AND patient population (I'm referring to patients who demand pills instead of doing hard work on themselves first).

 

3)The group of people who say that ADs are valuable because they reduce the stigma of mental illness. To them I say that is sometimes true, but it's a double-edged sword. What about the pathologizing effect these meds have and the labels they give patients that colors their world-view? Yes, it's true you may not be to blame because your brain is somehow "defective," (even though that's never been scientifically proven) but some would say that's demeaning and may actually keep you from living a full life because you believe you won't be able to function without meds. This can be a tragedy because it keeps you from attaining true self-mastery. It's like the old saying: The people who are truly hopeless are the enslaved ones that think they are free.

 

*Another variation on the reduced mental stigma theme: I remember a classmate in my nursing program said he was one of the first "guinea pigs" for Prozac back in the late 80s and has been on it since. He said that in the last decade he hasn't even kept it a secret from strangers that he's on an anti-depressant because it's so common to see people on them that it's no longer stigmatizing. Is it really a good thing that so many people are (no doubt needlessly) on ADs that it's just become socially acceptable?

 

4)The people who say such stories are irresponsible because they endanger depressed patients by putting it in their heads that they should stop taking their meds since they're no better than placebo. While I'm sure this is true in some cases (how could it not be?), these people always fail to mention the opposite danger of needless prescribing to mild/moderately depressed patients which needlessly exposes them to serious symptoms like suicidal ideation or messy withdrawals.

 

In the end, I guess I'm no longer as optimistic about these mainstream stories as I used to be. Judging by the comments I keep seeing, I don't think most people will ever come to a three-dimensional understanding of these drugs and the titanic, multi-decade-long corruption that has so lamentably reduced their effectiveness. It's just too much to take in for the average person, and America has become so pathologically soft and drank the "era of the brain"/psychopharmacology kool-aid for so long that I don't think it can be reversed at this point, sadly. At the end of the day, you can give all the air-tight evidence you could ever want to the public, but if the public doesn't want to believe it, it doesn't matter. You can bring a horse to water...

 

PS: I'm dreaming here, but here's a comment I'd like to have seen on the 60 Minutes story:

 

I've been suffering from severe depression since I was at least 12. I tried everything -- exercise, diet, meditation, social events, art therapy -- EVERYTHING. Nothing worked. Then I tried Prozac and for some reason it worked. After reading Whitaker's ANATOMY OF AN EPIDEMIC and watching this 60 Minutes story, I guess I fall into the group of the severely depressed where the meds do beat placebo. But I can't claim that I have a chemical imbalance or any kind of brain disorder because the literature shows no evidence of this. So I guess I'm saying I'm glad my med works, but I can't say why or how it works. Although I am grateful for this medication, I am equally appalled at the reckless corruption in psychiatry and the FDA which perverts science and prevents psychiatrists from giving the best care they can to patients. I am also outraged on behalf of all those people who were only mildly/moderately depressed and were unnecessarily prescribed antidepressants and had horrific side effects and a hell of a time withdrawing from them. They are as entitled to safe and effective treatments as more severely depressed people like me.

Was that so hard?

Been on SSRIs since 1998:

1998-2005: Paxil in varying doses

2005-present: Lexapro.

2006-early '08: Effexor AND Lexapro! Good thing I got off the Effexor rather quickly (within a year).

 

**PSYCHIATRY: TAKE YOUR CHEMICAL IMBALANCE AND CHOKE ON IT!

APA=FUBAR

FDA=SNAFU

NIMH=LMFAO

 

Currently tapering Lexapro ~10% every month:

 

STARTING: 15 mg

11/7/10: 13.5 mg

12/7/10: 12.2 mg

1/6/11: 10.9 mg

2/3/11: 9.8 mg

3/3/11: 8.8 mg

4/1/11: 7.8 mg

4/29/11: 7 mg

5/27/11: 6.4 mg

6/24/11: 5.7 mg

7/22/11: 5 mg

8/18/11: 4.5 mg

9/14/11: 4 mg

10/13/11: 3.6 mg

11/9/11: 3.2 mg

12/7/11: 2.6 mg

1/3/12: 2.1 mg

2/2/12: 1.8 mg

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Here's how I'd sum up the 60 Minutes segment:

 

HAMMER ---> NAIL ---> COFFIN ---> BANG!!!

 

It was only partly about the placebo effect. It touched on the whole disgusting ball of wax, the compromised research, the FDA's blindness, etc. It was not an infomercial for the effectiveness of antidepressants.

 

cine, here's are universal rules of human perception:

 

1) People generalize from their own personal experience. They don't realize that other people may have experiences that differ from theirs.

 

2) People don't understand the concept of statistical significance, which is supposed to correct for the tendency to generalize from one's own point of view. They don't understand that what Kirsch is saying is that (for example) of 100 people given antidepressants, the AVERAGE result will be the same as 100 people given a placebo. Some of the people given antidepressants will feel better, some will feel worse, and some won't feel anything. That's a null result. There is no statistical significance for antidepressant efficacy.

 

3) People believe what they want to believe. If you've spent the last 12 years working with a psychiatrist, trying drug after drug and not feeling better, wasting thousands of dollars, etc., you may be resistant to learning the entire philosophy upon which you've built your life is wrong. It's cognitive dissonance, and people will go through illogical contortions to be relieved of it. And that goes for doctors, too.

 

So don't be surprised to see clueless comments from ordinary people.

 

What got me was Dr. Michael Thase, U Penn psychiatrist and drug company consultant acting for the defense, explaining why statistical significance for efficacy in drug studies was unimportant!! (He argued that, although average efficacy was not established, there were people in the studies who were helped by the drugs.) He did no favors for his own image as a scientist with that bit of intellectual dishonesty.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Alison Bass asks an interesting question here

 

"....Why, I wondered, was 60 Minutes taking note of this now, four years after Kirsch first published his research and two years after he published his own book on the subject, The Emperor’s New Drugs?

 

Here is one very plausible reason, as articulated by Dr. Stephen Greer in a CurrentTV column today: because the patents for most of these blockbuster antidepressants (like Paxil and Prozac) have expired and the drug companies, who advertise heavily on television, are no longer pressuring the national media to stay mum.

 

As Greer notes, “it is quite rare for national TV news to report on any data critical of blockbusters despite plenty of research over the last several decades questioning the risk/benefit profile of numerous commonly used drugs.”

 

So why now? As he points out:

 

The most likely explanation is that the same drugs now being exposed as unsafe and ineffective have also lost patent protection and therefore, are no longer generating the huge advertising revenue for the networks. A significant portion of the revenue for the broadcast networks is derived from pharmaceutical advertisements.

....

 

Also see Dr. Greer's article “You’re telling me this now?” Why the news is suddenly critical of statins and antidepressants

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Jonathan Leo has his usual great analysis of situations like this:

 

http://www.madinamerica.com/2012/02/60-minutes-the-ssris-and-the-dirty-little-secret-2/

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is one very plausible reason, as articulated by Dr. Stephen Greer in a CurrentTV column today: because the patents for most of these blockbuster antidepressants (like Paxil and Prozac) have expired and the drug companies, who advertise heavily on television, are no longer pressuring the national media to stay mum.

Great point. I remember David Allen made a similar point. Essentially, drug companies have nothing to lose once their drugs are off-patent so they are much more willing to let the ugly truth come out. *But here's an extra wrinkle that Allen points out that is an excellent point: the drug companies also use this revelatory information about their former drugs' toxicity/inefficacy/side effects to promote their NEW generation of drugs that supposedly don't (wink wink) have those shortcomings! I think Allen is onto something when he cites this phenomenon as to why benzos get a bad rap (especially Xanax) and some doctors are averse to prescribing them as they are long off-patent and the truth about their horrific addictive properties is now out in the open because the drug companies don't have anything to lose.

Been on SSRIs since 1998:

1998-2005: Paxil in varying doses

2005-present: Lexapro.

2006-early '08: Effexor AND Lexapro! Good thing I got off the Effexor rather quickly (within a year).

 

**PSYCHIATRY: TAKE YOUR CHEMICAL IMBALANCE AND CHOKE ON IT!

APA=FUBAR

FDA=SNAFU

NIMH=LMFAO

 

Currently tapering Lexapro ~10% every month:

 

STARTING: 15 mg

11/7/10: 13.5 mg

12/7/10: 12.2 mg

1/6/11: 10.9 mg

2/3/11: 9.8 mg

3/3/11: 8.8 mg

4/1/11: 7.8 mg

4/29/11: 7 mg

5/27/11: 6.4 mg

6/24/11: 5.7 mg

7/22/11: 5 mg

8/18/11: 4.5 mg

9/14/11: 4 mg

10/13/11: 3.6 mg

11/9/11: 3.2 mg

12/7/11: 2.6 mg

1/3/12: 2.1 mg

2/2/12: 1.8 mg

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Leo's piece is excellent. Let the games begin!

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Just saw your post on the Mad in America thread, Alto. LOVED this bit:

 

I also see a tsunami in withdrawal syndrome, which I dread. Some people are going to find exit isn't easy.

I think I'm going to buy some stock in compounding pharmacies. Just sayin'...

Been on SSRIs since 1998:

1998-2005: Paxil in varying doses

2005-present: Lexapro.

2006-early '08: Effexor AND Lexapro! Good thing I got off the Effexor rather quickly (within a year).

 

**PSYCHIATRY: TAKE YOUR CHEMICAL IMBALANCE AND CHOKE ON IT!

APA=FUBAR

FDA=SNAFU

NIMH=LMFAO

 

Currently tapering Lexapro ~10% every month:

 

STARTING: 15 mg

11/7/10: 13.5 mg

12/7/10: 12.2 mg

1/6/11: 10.9 mg

2/3/11: 9.8 mg

3/3/11: 8.8 mg

4/1/11: 7.8 mg

4/29/11: 7 mg

5/27/11: 6.4 mg

6/24/11: 5.7 mg

7/22/11: 5 mg

8/18/11: 4.5 mg

9/14/11: 4 mg

10/13/11: 3.6 mg

11/9/11: 3.2 mg

12/7/11: 2.6 mg

1/3/12: 2.1 mg

2/2/12: 1.8 mg

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Cine, your writing always amazes me. Does that pour out spontaneously or does it time to organize such an eloquent message complete with witicism?

 

I thought the segment was very well done. Featuring Kirsch -- from HARVARD, the most trusted institution in the USA if not world -- was brilliant strategy. I haven't gotten to the CBS website to read comments, but did find Leslie Stahl quoted on PsychCentral saying she didn't know what to think after the interview because her husband has been greatly helped by antidepressants.

And I just saw that Alto has already taken on Dr. Grohol. Great comment, Alto!

I walked away really confused says Leslie Stahl

 

The timing is indeed part of a plan that's likely been in place for many years. Coincidence that it aired in the same month that Healy's Pharmageddon was released (after he maintained a fairly low profile for a few years - correct me if I'm wrong, please)?? I'm hoping to get to Healy's talks in Los Angeles area in March. Is anyone planning to attend in your areas?

 

My last point...how do others who did respond to SSRIs feel about Kirsch's placebo effect vs. Healy likening SSRIs effect to alcohol? Since I never had a positive response to serotonergics (did have side effects), the comparison to alcohol doesn't fit my experience. Dr. Breggin's explanation and descriptions hit closest to home for me. The downward spiral of husband and my life (individually and together) since early 90s and SSRIs+ is classic 'spellbinding', social withdrawal, and apathy.

Edited by Altostrata
corrected link

Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc).

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60 Minutes's calculation of the number of people in the US on antidepressants is off. They say 17 million over the age of 6.

 

According to CDC statistics http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db76.htm

"Eleven percent of Americans aged 12 years and over take antidepressant medication."

 

According to the 2010 census http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/population.html , the total US population is 308,746,000. Children under 5 total 20,201,000; 5-9, 20,349,000; 10-14, 20,677,000.

 

The total US population over 14 would be 247,519,000.

 

11% of that figure (over the age of 14) is 27,227,090 -- substantially higher than 17 million.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • 4 years later...
  • Moderator Emeritus

Found 60 minutes interview on this site

 

I wasn't able to watch the other one because of being in Australia.

* NO LONGER ACTIVE on SA *

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED:  (6 year taper)      0mg Pristiq  on 13th November 2021

ADs since ~1992:  25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq:  50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity)  Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021   LAST DOSE 0.0025mg

Post 0 updates start here    My tapering program     My Intro (goes to tapering graph)

 VIDEO:   Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management

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  • 6 years later...

I found the link to the 2012 60 minutes episode on AD's.  The link was on Dr Kirsch's website.  It was difficult to find so I thought I would post it here.

 

CBS channel:

 

Treating Depression: Is there a placebo effect?

 

Edited by ChessieCat
added video title and Youtube channel name

Oct 2014 - May 2015 Effexor XR 150mg

June 2015 - Effexor XR 112.5

July 2015 - Effexor XR 75mg

Aug 2015 - Effexor XR 37.5 mg - Multiple failed taper attempts

Jan 2017 - Effexor XR 150mg

Aug 2019 - 150 mg - start 5%  every 4 weeks taper

Nov 2020 - 85 mg Effexor

 

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  • ChessieCat changed the title to Video: Irving Kirsch and placebo effect on CBS / 60 Minutes February 2012
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