Spideygsm off zyprexa

[Spideygsm]

I'm brand new to this forum. I'm not real social so I generally only read and don't write. However, I feel the topic of letting people now that it is possible to get completely off Zyprexa (olanzapine) is so important that I had to share. I'm bipolar with an extreme depression and an anxiety disorder. I was put on 5 mg of Zyprexa in 2003 when I went through a very bad down cycle. Since 2003, my body kept building up a tolerance to the Zyprexa so my Doctors kept raising the dose all the way up to 30 mg/day starting in 2015. That's when I really starting having bad side effects such as high blood sugar, high liver panels, high cholesterol, testical issues, a 25 lbs weight gain, and my right breast started drooping. My family has a zero history for any of these things. I don't eat any junk food, very little meat, I swim 1 plus miles 5 days each week, and I have kept the my weight off (I'm 6'-2" and currently weigh 180 lbs, don't smoke).

 

In November 2017 my Doctor said I needed to quit taking Zyprexa. She wasn't the Doctor who put me on the drug and told me all along she wasn't a fan of it but since it worked, keep using it. My Doctor initially said to taper by 25% every 10 days. I did some online research and told her I would rather start at a 10% reduction and see how it went. When I did my first reduction, within 2 days I was having just about every withdrawal symptom you've read about. The worst were the headaches, insomnia, anxiety, high pulse, twitching, zero energy, and sweats. People are always going to say that a 10% reduction was too much of a taper. In my convoluted mind, I thought, why prolong this agony. I went ahead and dropped by by 25% every 10 days.  My last dose of Zyprexa was 11 weeks ago today. At week 4 my symptoms got even worse. My doctor gave me Ambien for sleep and Valium for the anxiety. Neither did a thing so I stopped. I had to withdraw from Klonipin in 2003 and know how tough Benzo's are to stop taking. I even swore back then I'd never take another Benzo. However, the Zyprexa withdrawals were so bad I was willing to try anything. One thing that I did notice right from the start is that on days when I swam, I always felt better after the swim. The harder I swam, the better I felt. This is similar that Andy has been telling people. I'm not talking about a mild sweat lifting weights. I'm talking about a kick ass workout where I am completely worn out. This is something my Doctor also told me. After stopping Pshyc meds, your brain has to readjust. One way of getting the brain to adjust quicker is to do something natural that releases the endorphins.

 

At week 8 my doctor put me on Trazodone for sleep (little help, 2-3 hours instead of 0-2 hours). I still take 150 mg Trazodone each night (Trazodone isn't a permanent answer either. My Doctor told me 150 mg is a low dose and easy to stop. She used to prescibe up to 1000 mg when Trazondone was used as an antidrpessant). At week 9 I started taking 20 mg of pure CBD oil each night. I don't know if it's the CBD oil, a placebo effect, or I'm getting better with regards to sleep but I'm getting 2-3 nights each week of 6-7 hours of sleep. On the other nights I'm getting 3-4 hours sleep. This is something I can easily deal with. At week 9 is when I noticed a significant improvement. I went 2 days without any symptoms other than feeling tired and zero energy, and having insomnia. Then I had 2 bad days and since that, I've had no other symptoms other than a tired feeling, zero energy and I'd say moderate insomnia (tolerable compared to how I was feeling). The tiredness could be the sleep hangover from the Trazodone. I see my Doctor next week. I'm probably gonna start cutting back on the Trazodone and see how things go.

 

I would say I'm a success story. I still take 150 mg Wellbutrin SR for depression (down from 450 mg), 1800 mg Gabapentin for anxiety and back pain, and the 150 mg of Trazodone for sleep. I don't think I'll ever be able to stop taking all medicines because of my mental health illness. I have to be a realist. By the way, my Doctor gave me a prescription for Abilify which I HAVE NOT taken. I'm gonna see how things go before I ever take another antipsychotic again. If I tried to put a number on how I feel, I'd say I'm at 75%. I've never felt completely normal in my life, but I'm definitely feeling A LOT better. Zyprexa does have it's place. It saved me from a very dark time when I tried to kill myself 2 times. It also helped with other issues. However, I wish the Doctor's at the Mental Hospital told me about all of the dangerous side effects, the drugs addiction, and the pure hell it is to stop taking Zyprexa.

 

I'm not 100% better. The insomnia is miserable (I'm not gonna lie), I still feel tired with zero energy. However, all of the other symptoms are gone, my blood work is well below normal, and my physical symptoms (******** problem, saggy right breast) have pretty much resolved themselves. Is this a coincidence? I don't think so. If you do internet research, all of these are side effects from Zyprexa. I can testify that everything Andy has told people is correct. Exercise helps the most. CBD oil has helped (I'll keep taking it if it keeps helping, otherwise I'll stop).  I don't know about the diet because I've always eaten pretty healthy. I want to tell people it's not a pleasant experience to go through. It's taken about 6 months from the time I started my taper to where I am now (11 weeks Zyprexa free). It really is mind over matter. When you're going through the withdrawal, it feels like the misery is never going to end. I always thought forward. Things may get better tomorrow and then one day, it unexpectedly did. My recommendation is this. Exercise hard, don't take any Benzos (you're trading one difficult addiction for another and they did zero for me), don't take a real sleeping pill like Amien (another very addicting drug that didn't help), and exactly what Andy said, don't use the internet. People only write about their misery getting off Zyprexa. Reading these stories will only make you feel worse. There are probably more success stories out there that you don't get to read because I think these people don't post their stories. I think the majority of people who post are miserable being at the beginning or in the middle of the withdrawal and don't see a positive outcome. As an example, if you read the horror stories about getting off Zyprexa, most people who post these stories are either beginning the taper, or a few weeks or month since the last dose. I've only read a few posts where somebody shares their story and is a few months off their last dose and all of these stories have been positive. That's why it's dangerous to read the misery stories. I think that it can make things worse because you can get a feeling of panic or anxiety about how bad it's going to be. It's not easy. It will definitely get better. Andy outlined his story perfectly and I've tried to do the same. I've told everybody what worked for me and what didn't. Everybody's timeline is going to be different. I took a very high dose for a very long time. Just hang in there and look forward to the day when you'll start to feel better. Good luck to all. Hang in there. It really does take willpower and a strong mind. Kudos to Andy for sharing his story. I'm not trying to hijack what he's shared. Only let people know I've had a similar experience. 

[Altostrata]

Welcome, Spidey.

 

I moved your post from andy's Success Story to start your own Introductions topic. I hope you will write your Success Story soon.

 

A lot of people will learn from your recovery, thank you for posting it, it is very interesting. Your doctor has been wiser than most.

 

I am glad you are doing better.

 

Quote

I still take 150 mg Wellbutrin SR for depression (down from 450 mg), 1800 mg Gabapentin for anxiety and back pain, and the 150 mg of Trazodone for sleep.

 

Do you want help going off trazodone or minimizing the other drugs? Please put ALL your drugs in the Drug Interactions Checker https://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.php

and copy and paste the results in this topic.

 

To help us out, see these instructions Please put your drug and withdrawal history in your signature

[Spideygsm]

Does anybody have Tips or something that actually worked for treating insomnia caused by antipsychotic withdrawals? The are some people like myself who had to do a pretty rapid taper because of dangerous side effects caused by years of use and a very high dose of Zyprexa. There are also some people holding back from getting off antipsychotic drugs due to the insomnia alone.

 

I had moderate insomnia before I took Zyprexa. All of the antipsychotic drugs I've taken were for their approved use and NOT for insomnia.

 

For myself nothing worked for the intense insomnia caused by the Zyprexa withdrawal. I tried Valium and Ambien and neither did anything. Hard exercise helped with the anxiety, depression ... but not for the insomnia. Only after I started to feel better and most of the other side effects were generally gone did anything help with the intense insomnia. I think it was at this point in my withdrawal that my brain starting to function as it did before I started taking the Zyprexa. At this point I tried Trazodone which did very little. I tried CBD oil and since I started the CBD oil, I've been sleeping well (ave 6 hours a night which is great for me). Please note, I had underlying insomnia and anxiety before Zyprexa. After the withdrawal symptoms from the antipsychotic pretty much went away, I started to feel exactly the same way I did before I started taking Zyprexa in that the underlying insomnia and anxiety that are caused by my Bipolar 1 and Anxiety Disorder returned. Zyprexa did not cause these underlying symptoms. Stopping the Zyprexa did not make me feel completely healed and normal (whatever that is). Stopping the Zyprexa got me out of the horrible brain fog and drugged feeling I had while taking Zyprexa. I do feel like I can think much clearer and have emotions again. Antisychotics took all that away.

 

For me, I couldn't find that magic bullet to get rid of the insomnia caused by the antipsychotic withdrawal. I think the insomnia during withdrawal is completely different than the insomnia I experienced before by the use of the antipsychotic. I don't think there's anything that can be done to treat the insomnia caused by the antipsychotic withdrawal. The antipsychotic drugs are so powerful that the withdrawals can't be treated. I think the withdrawals can be controlled by a very low dose reduction and very slow taper as recommended by SA. For some people a 5% or 10% drop might be too much. If it is, try less. Everybody is different. I think your body will tell you how much of a dose reduction to make. You may be able to tolerate 10% or even 25% or as low as 1% or 2%. Nobody can tell you for sure. Pick a number and try. I wish I had that option.

 

If anybody knows anything that helps the insomnia during the antipsychotic withdrawals, please share. For me, adding bandaid drugs didn't work. Even share your thoughts about timelines you experienced when your symptoms started to diminish. All of this would have helped me.

[Spideygsm]

I'm probably wasting battery power writing this but in case somebody might read this here is an update.

 

Setback: Yesterday I started feeling weak and extremely tired (one of my Zyprexa withdrawal symptoms) as the day went on. I did swim at 5:30 am but this is a normal routine. I'm always up really early everyday so I'm pretty sure the exercise or early activity had nothing to do with the symptoms. Today I feel very tired and weak (didn't sleep much last night either). I'm nearly unable to function. I did force myself to go swim in the morning because that helped me during my Zyprexa withdrawal. Not today. I feel like I need to sleep but I'm unable to nap (which isn't unusual for me).

 

I was hoping I was out of the woods with the horrible Zyprexa withdrawals. I guess not. I'm a little discouraged but today on SA I've read were many others have had similar setbacks. By the way, my last dose was approximately 13 weeks ago. I'm somewhat discouraged but I guess is just part of the process. One thing I know, I'll never go back on Zyprexa.

[Spideygsm]

arw

 

When I was on Seroquel, , I slept all the time. However, with Zyprexa just the opposite occurred. The drug feeling in my brain was so strong I couldn't sleep. I'm an odd ball here. I think that for 99% of the users, one of Zyprexa's depressive side effects is that it does help people sleep (that's why your'e on Zyprexa). However, you and I both experienced severe insomnia as a withdrawal symptom.

 

(MOD NOTE: Please see following post about site rules) I just wonder if anybody tried wine, pot, CBD oil, any prescription drug, exercise, soothing tea, melatonin or anything that can help somebody withdrawing sleep? If somebody does know, it could help a lot of people quit the evil antipsychotic drugs.

 

I don't think antipsychotic drugs should be banned. Zyprexa saved me and helped me for many years as well as other severely mentally ill people. However, it's the off label use that has me scratching my head. 

 

Thanks

 

Edited June 2, 2018 by ChessieCat
added mod note

[ChessieCat]

38 minutes ago, Spideygsm said:

I just wonder if anybody tried wine, pot, CBD oil, any prescription drug, exercise, soothing tea, melatonin or anything that can help somebody withdrawing sleep?

 

A gentle reminder to all members that SA is a site for getting off drugs, not for drug shopping.

 

See:

 

On 6/16/2011 at 4:45 AM, Altostrata said:

- Drug shopping or recommending drugs
This is a site for going off drugs. It is not a site for finding out what drug to take next, comparing drug cocktails, or recommending what drug to add. This could be dangerous. People could be hurt by your advice.

 

 

[Altostrata]

Spidey please see discussions about those substances in Symptoms and Self-Care. Generally, they are not recommended, particularly alcohol.

 

Also see Tips to help sleep -- so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia 

[Spideygsm]

Sorry, I'm not allowed to discuss anything that may be used to actually help somebody deal with antipsychotic insomnia. Imagine, if somebody could use "something", even a cup of herbal sleep tea, that has actually helped somebody stay on course to kick an antipsychotic , then the person gets off the evil devise such as herbal tea once that person has successfully kicked the potentially life threatening drug (like what happened to me).

 

I thought the whole purpose of SA was to help people get off of these horrific psych drugs? If somebody had said that eating crickets helped get rid of antipsychotic withdrawal insomnia, I'd have been eating them buy the pound. I guess I'm not a good person for SA

 

Whatever.

[Altostrata]

No, you can discuss potential aids in the Symptoms and Self-Care forum.

 

Chessie is cautioning you against asking for prescription drug suggestions, or illegal drugs.

[Spideygsm]

Moderator,

 

Please delete this topic. Nobody cares anyway. The people who want of phycho drugs get tough and do it. The ones that don't just complain how hard it is making it even more difficult for those who making the valiant effort to quit.

[Songbird]

It's not true that nobody cares, we all care very much here.  It was the pot and prescription drugs part of your comment that the mods were cautioning about.  Herbal teas, melatonin and exercise are okay to discuss.

[Spideygsm]

Songbird,

 

Agree. I threw in p*t and a*****l to the list because nobody will give ANY constructive suggestions about anything. I can deal with whatever issues I have myself (along with my Doctor).

 

Nothing (zero) helped me during Zyprexa withdrawals. Only after the drug withdrawals ended that C*D **l might have helped me sleep. I won’t swear to it. All I want to know is if anybody found anything (p*t, a*****l, and prescription d**gs excluded) that helps with sleep during withdrawal. Not to help me, to help others either get started tapering, or help during withdrawals which WAS worst part for me

 

Thanks

[brassmonkey]

Please take the time to do some searches of the site on the topic of improving sleep.  You will find many thousands of posts on the subject.  You will also find that there is no drug, prescription, OTC or illegal that will help, and there is a very limited number of supplements that have been of benefit to so some members and  not to others.  We are well aware of which those are and we recommend them quite frequently and we can not and will not, nor will we allow anyone else to recommend drugs that would be potentially harmful to our members.  Believe me if there was something that helped we would be shouting it from the roof tops.  Over the years our members and members of other related forums have tried every conceivable thing there is and the only real answer it to ride it out as best as a person can and allow it to clear up of its own accord in its own time. 

[Songbird]

Have a look around the Symptoms and Self-care forum.  You can use google to search for a specific term, for example google "surviving antidepressants melatonin".

Here are a couple of topics about things to help sleep:  tips to help sleep so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

melatonin for sleep

 

As Brassmonkey says, individual responses to anything vary a lot.  For example, I've found valerian immensely helpful, but some people have had horrible experiences with it.  There are no easy answers that are right for everyone.

[Skeeter]

S,

Here, some o the info you asked about.  I did 4 solid months of research and learned everything I could about CBD. I learned the different species of plants, full spectrum vs isotopes, and it paid off for me, and I taught my doctor a lot about it.   Yes, it does help me sleep,  When I stop or forget, there is a lag time of about 2 weeks to get it at a good level in my system again, and then I can sleep 6 or 7 hours in a row.  I usually get 2 or 3 hours before pain wakes me, I reposition, sleep again, so yes, I agree, it does help.

 

You may want to be careful about saying that there is no help here for what works.  Not much does, but all of our info is in one place, and Songbird above kindly pointed you right too it.  We take this very seriously.  I volunteer as much time as I can handle, the other people, even members give so much of their time and soul to this place helping others when they do not have to.  Please respect what we have, that is all I ask.  if you want to loo up herbal teas, our search engine is not perfect, so go to your favorite site, Google, whatever you like, type, "SurvivingAntidepressants.org, herbal teas" so now you know how to navigate, and where to find the info.  If you found something helpful, you can always thank someone. That is our only pay.  Any donations go to keeping this site running, nothing else.

Be well,

Skeeter

[JanCarol]

Hey Spidey - 

 

On 5/31/2018 at 1:17 AM, Spideygsm said:

insomnia caused by the antipsychotic withdrawal.

 

While I'm certain that your rapid taper is bound to have some side effects - you can expect them to last a while yet.  After all, you were on the drugs for at least 15 years - you can't expect your body to adjust to their absence in a matter of  weeks or months.

 

It is vitally important not to look for substances (such as pot and alcohol - or other prescriptions) to help with your symptoms, but to consider non-drug methods.

 

Think of your brain as a basketball - each time you throw a new substance on it, it bounces the basketball.  Every change that you make, bounces the basketball.   If you leave it alone, the basketball will settle down.   I would say the same about Sam-E or St. John's Wort, or most other supplements.  And some things - like pot and alcohol - are incredibly variable.  Unless you are in a legal state where you can pick the same strain with the same qualities every time, pot is a street drug, and by its very nature, variable.  Alcohol hits on the same receptors as benzos, only it's more short acting - so think about benzo withdrawal on an hourly basis.

But the reason I am writing here is not to talk about looking for new substances, but to explore the ones you are already on.  150 mg Wellbutrin is famous for messing with sleep.  I just posted about how it may have messed with my sleep in a very long term fashion (30 years), here.

 

Additionally, your gabapentin is famous for inducing restless legs, muscular disorders, dizziness, cog fog, sleep and digestive disturbances  - and at that high of a dose, it may be going paradoxical on you, and waking you up instead of putting you to sleep.

Your trazadone taper is going too fast - you tapered 33% in the first month, and 50% in the second month.  This will be endangering your sleep as well.   Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

None of these drugs are beneficial to your long term health.  You would be well served to learn to manage your moods and "psych" symptoms with Non Drug Techniques for Coping with Emotional Symptoms, which address the causes of your distress instead of just numbing them out (and causing long term damage to your body).

 

7 hours ago, Spideygsm said:

soothing tea, melatonin

 

 

I frequently take a nice tea to help me settle and sleep.  My personal philosophy is that food based assistance (like warm milk with honey, if you are lactose tolerant) is the safest in withdrawal - however - some people react even to those.  I find that quality meats and fats also help greatly with mood management.

 

There is a discussion of melatonin, here:  

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/189-melatonin-for-sleep/

 

I cannot take it myself, as it leaves me headachey and hungover, and my mornings are difficult enough without that effect,.  Like most supplements, it is a mixed bag.  It might aggravate your situation, it might make it better.  It might make it better for awhile, then poop out (tachyphylaxis) and stop working, as frequently happens with a number of supplements, including amino acids.  My doctor is still pushing the melatonin at me - she wants me to get it in a liquid and take tiny drops of it - to help with a number of symptoms, as aging people make less of it than younger ones.  After my experience with a 1 mg dose, I'm pretty shy of the supplement, but it has helped others, at least in the short term.

 

This is why we are a site for coming off of psychiatric drugs, and most of our tools and techniques are not about supplements, but about means for coping with the experiences that life throws at us.  One of the favourite tools here is based in Mindfulness and Acceptance .  And the one that seems to bother you the most, (as wise Brassmonkey suggested):  Important Topics about Symptoms Including Sleep Problems 

 

6 hours ago, Spideygsm said:

Imagine, if somebody could use "something", even a cup of herbal sleep tea, that has actually helped somebody stay on course to kick an antipsychotic , then the person gets off the evil devise such as herbal tea once that person has successfully kicked the potentially life threatening drug (like what happened to me).

 

If there was a magic formula, we'd love to shut down this website.  There are a zillion tools to help different situations and people, but no simple solution in a bottle, pill, plant, tea, or substance.  The main solution is changing your brain:  

Generally, if you think about it, the antipsychotic (actually a neuroleptic) is like a bomb site.  Putting a band aid or some healing herbal salve over that hole in the ground isn't going to cover much territory.  The simples - which I am a huge fan of -  only cover a small portion of the changes left in the wake of psych drugs.  What you need instead is a toolkit.  Maybe your toolkit will consist of intense exercise, cold water therapy, sleep hygiene, light and dark therapy, talk therapy, Cognitive Behavioural therapy, sunlight, mindfulness - maybe your toolkit will look different - but the more non-drug tools you have, the better you will fare off of the drugs.

 

There really are no "magic pills" or shortcuts.  Nothing substitutes for doing the hard work yourself.  

 

Your drug cocktail is still very complex. I would encourage you not to taper anything else for several months, until your Zyprexa - and Trazadone -  tapers have settled down.  I would hold on the Trazadone - stop tapering. 

 

However, during this time, you can work on challenging your diag-nonsense of whatever brand of "SMI" you are buying into.  The DSM is not a scientific instrument; it's a survey and a vote by the "in guys" at the American Psychiatric Association (most of whom take $$$$$$ from pharmaceutical companies). 

I do believe that bipolar is a thing, but that is is far less common than is being diag-nonsensed now.  It used to be 0.05%.  That's one-half of one percent.  One in 200 people.  Many of the diag-nonsenses come from the side effects of the psych drugs - or withdrawal from them - that is treated as "relapse," when it was actually drug induced.

 

There is no such thing as a chemical imbalance.  I invite you to read Robert Whitaker's excellent book, "Anatomy of an Epidemic," and learn about the case studies, fake trials, marketing schemes, and the suppressed trials.  It all points to the drugs contributing to "mental illness" not helping.  Peter Breggin, who has also written some books (which are scary, so I don't recommend them) calls "mental illness" simple, problems in living.  

I could give you several references about why chemical imbalance is a myth and drugging diag-nonsense is a harmful practice - but I'll start with this:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4291-again-chemical-imbalance-is-a-myth-stop-the-lies-please

 

and this one:

 

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/are-psychiatric-medications-making-us-sicker/ 

So far, you've been lucky with your rapid taper.  Please refrain from criticising others who need to go more slowly - we've seen many many people (the majority, in fact) who have landed in hospital from a too rapid taper of Zyprexa and other neuroleptics, as well as antidepressants.

Your doctor may tell you that there is no withdrawal from Trazadone, this is not true.  We have people who have struggled with that "innocent" drug for many years.  Please respect the drug, and slow down your taper - stop and hold to see what your rapid tapering has done before going any further.  Maybe let your sleep settle down if you stop bouncing that basketball/brain with Trazadone tapering.

 

And - I hope you see the sun today!

Edited June 2, 2018 by JanCarol

[JanCarol]

Hey Spidey - 

 

If you are so keen to try a supplement (please do not recommend supplements around the website - you are welcome to show people our topics on them, where you will read that every single supplement has pros and cons, but we do not recommend them directly), then the only supplements we actually recommend here are:

 

Magnesium and Omega-3 fish oil

 

The magnesium helps with about 300 different metabolic and neurotransmitter cascades in the body, and is essential for the body to run smoothly.  It relaxes smooth muscle tissue, can help with anxiety (make mag-water, sip it cold when anxious), help induce relaxation - especially when combined with mindfulness meditation, and is immensely helpful with pain.  60% (or more) of Americans are magnesium deficient.

 

Fish oil coats the neurons, and helps them to fire smoothly, and is essential in healing and neuroplasticity.  Example:  a study in Norway gave young adolescent males who had "schizophrenic indicators" - half got quality fish oil, the other half nothing.  The group that got nothing had 3x the psychiatric events of the fish oil group.  And it was protective - taking it during adolescence, protected them well into their 20's, even though they had stopped taking the fish oil.  That's just one example.  There are examples of people waking from comas with high doses of fish oil.  Here in Australia, they ran a trial on violent prisoners (also male) where half got the fish oil, and half didn't.  The fish oil group was so successful in reducing their violent behaviour, that they ended up giving the fish oil to the entire prison.  Amazing stuff.

 

When you have these 2 up to speed, and only then, should you consider any other "tweaks" with herbs, aminos, and supplements.  These two are the big players, most important in healing from psych drugs.  The rest are - as I called them - tweaks, and are very individual as to what works and what doesn't.

 

I hope you see the sun today.

[Spideygsm]

JanCarol

 

I’m not keen to try anything. I told a person who’s taking Zyprexa for sleep that there are other things to use for sleep other than antipsychotic drugs and gave an example. 

 

Hypocrisy . Don’t recommend a supplement. Hmm. Yet it’s okay to tell somebody on SA to stop taking their psych drugs without talking to their Doctor first that may just be keeping the person alive. 

 

 

[Spideygsm]

JanCarol

 

You guys read one sentence and assume I’m trying to self medicate. I’m not looking for anything for myself (I don’t drink, smoke, or use P*t). I put out a general question to help others who are wanting to get off antipsychotics or are stuck not sleeping during withdrawals. I’ve also stated very clearly in all of the posts I’ve made that nothing’s ever worked for me during any withdrawl or taper I’ve made.

 

None of my mental issues are caused by the psych drugs. Lighting fires, stealing rocks brought back from the moon, self harm, hurting others all before I was 8, homeless at 15 because out of control (just the beginning). Runs in my family. I think the Doctors were probably correct. I agree with you 100%. There are Doctors misdiagnosing patients and a lot of the issues we have are brought on by prescription drugs and their side effects. I know I’ve been on drugs I never should have been put on. I’ve been inpatient at a psych hospitals more times than I can count. The Doctors bomb the patients with all kinds of drugs just to get that patient out of the hospital. Then the patient goes home and gets new issues from side effects they didn’t experience before and they end up addicted or dependent on new drugs. Vicious circle. 

 

Sometimes in life one has to pick their poison. I have 4 fused discs. One failed fusion. I went down the opioid path for 7 years. Never abused them but I put them down when they quit working and I kept going up in dose. For me they also caused depression. I made the decision to quit. I use Gabapentine for two issues. Nerve pain in my spine and anxiety. No more opioids or Benzodiazepines. 

 

Wellbutrine- 37.5mg now then off (this was recommended by my doctor because of Wellbutrin side effects). Trazodone- going take your advice and hold at 100mg. I’m having either a few Zyprexa issues creeping back or it’s the Traz. Nothing like I experienced Dec-Early May

 

If I make a general comment about people not stepping up and being tough, that’s an observation that’s true. I’m not lovey-dovey and sugar coat things. If I jump on an individual person, that’s criticizing somebody. I also don’t say how bad the withdrawals really are. People don’t need to hear that. It makes things worse. 

 

I thought I could join SA and help people out since I’ve dealt with this crap a long time. I don’t believe drugs are a good choice for most. Some people like myself are probably gonna be stuck having to take something. The closest thing I’ve ever found to a silver bullet is diet and exercise. I don’t think at this point I’m a good fit for SA. 

 

By the way. The Doctor you said I know that is misinformed about herbal remedies is an MD does not believe in Western Medicines, recommends holistic remedies first, and has written several books about using stretching and Yoga to treat back pain. I’ve known him 33 years. Send me a message and I’ll be glad to put you in contact with him. He’s a very laid back dude. 

 

 

[Spideygsm]

5 hours ago, Skeeter said:

S,

Here, some o the info you asked about.  I did 4 solid months of research and learned everything I could about CBD. I learned the different species of plants, full spectrum vs isotopes, and it paid off for me, and I taught my doctor a lot about it.   Yes, it does help me sleep,  When I stop or forget, there is a lag time of about 2 weeks to get it at a good level in my system again, and then I can sleep 6 or 7 hours in a row.  I usually get 2 or 3 hours before pain wakes me, I reposition, sleep again, so yes, I agree, it does help.

 

5 hours ago, Skeeter said:

 

Skeeter

 

Thanks for the answer. I think C*D worked for me but I still wouldn’t swear by it. It could be the placebo effect. Just coincidental my sleep started improving a few days after I started taking it and pretty much has remained that way. 

 

I’ve said in about all of my posts, the closest thing I’ve found to the silver bullet is diet and exercise. I’ve also said drugs are not the only answer. I’m not searching for anything for myself. My whole purpose of asking the question was to get others input about anything that has helped so that others have an option of what might work for them.

 

I take this all seriously. For me it’s been life or death.

 

Regards

[Spideygsm]

6 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

the only real answer it to ride it out as best as a person can and allow it to clear up of its own accord in its own time. 

BrassM

 

I’m new. I found SA after I had to do my quick Zyprexa taper. I tried other drugs, exercise etc but nothing helped me during withdrawal other than grin and bear with it. 

 

I only joined because I liked what I saw on SA and saw people were struggling just like I was. I thought I might be able to help. I’ve learned I can’t. People have to help themselves. 

 

In your quote you said exactly what I’ve been trying to say all along in my short time at SA. People need to get tough and deal with it and ride it out. The area in your quote I highlighted is the true answer everybody needs to know and aren’t being told enough.

 

If I stick around I’ll learn more about where everything is at on SA

 

Regards

[Altostrata]

A miscommunication is getting out of hand. Spidey, you're still welcome here.

 

We're very cautious about drugs and supplements because so many people have nervous systems sensitized by going on and off drugs. We know that if we say something is good, people will pop in from the Internet, read stuff out of context, possibly go overboard in dosing, and hurt themselves.

 

We're trying to keep people from having adverse effects from supplements, herbs, etc. too. There's also the legal aspect, marijuana and CBD oil is illegal in many states and countries, we don't want to be telling people to do anything that could get them arrested. (But we do discuss these substances.)

 

A grueling sleeplessness is a very, very common result of going off drugs. We discuss it and counsel people about it all the time. Because of hypersensitization, many people have had bad reactions to sleep drugs and supplements, which has made the sleeplessness even worse. Some can be quite desperate for sleep.

 

We understand that, most of the staff has experienced this awful sleep problem ourselves! But we know we can't recommend drugs -- aside from not knowing what might work, that's a gray area of legality -- and we know the limitations of supplements. We do the best we can.

 

Other than drugs, I believe we've covered just about every possibility to improve sleep in Symptoms and Self-Care. Please read and add to the topics in about what people can do for sleep. If you have any new angles, lots of people would like to hear about them. But first, get acquainted with what we've already covered.

[LaurnaT]

Hi, Spidey,

I did some research related to my son's schizophrenia symptoms after I learned that I could cure him with music. The trick was to focus music only on his right ear. I already kept my CFS symptoms, including insomnia, away with binaural listening to classical music, but I did not understand how that works. Here's the neurology: the right ear controls the sound stream to the left-brain, which must dominate the right-brain for a person to have normal thought processes and behavior. The ears, especially the right ear, also control states of consciousness, including falling asleep and awakening. High-frequency music exercises a tiny muscle in the middle ear, the stapedius. That muscle controls the movement of the stapes (stirrup) at the oval window where the higher frequencies of sound are transmitted into the inner ear (cochlea and vestibular canals) and on into the brain. If the muscle is weak (genetically or from some kind of assault such as psychoactive drugs) it cannot respond to a command from the brain, e.g., to relax. When relaxed, that muscle (an extensor) relaxes all the extensor muscles in the body. The knees tend to buckle so the person wants to lie down. The eyes lose their ability to focus and the eyelids droop. The stapedius is connected to the vagus network and when it relaxes it slows digestion, respiration, circulation, and heartbeat. Less sound can reach the brain, so cerebral integration slows down, reducing the ability to pay attention, think, or communicate. If it keeps vibrating to the sound in the environment, the body remains alert in all those ways. Listening to music (think violins) strengthens the muscle. When it becomes tonic -- strong and flexible -- it can allow the body to sleep, to awaken to alertness, and do many other things essential to mental and physical health. You would need to use music regularly to offset the effects of your medication, it's not a one-shot deal. You can learn more about Focused Listening here http://www.northernlightbooks.ca/mental-health-through-music/focused-listening/  If you want to learn more about the role of the ear in SSRI withdrawal syndrome, a download of my study will be available gratis to members of this site within a few days and you can reach me at rtallman[at]xplornet.ca for a copy. If you spend some time at my website, I think you will begin to understand the ear problems that have "run in your family."

[Altostrata]

Laurna, please start a topic for your music therapy in our Symptoms and Self-Care forum. Let's stay on topic in Spidey's Intro topic. Thank you.

[Spideygsm]

17 minutes ago, LaurnaT said:

Hi, Spidey,

I did some research related to my son's schizophrenia symptoms after I learned that I could cure him with music. The trick was to focus music only on his right ear. I already kept my CFS symptoms, including insomnia, away with binaural listening to classical music, but I did not understand how that works. Here's the neurology: the right ear controls the sound stream to the left-brain, which must dominate the right-brain for a person to have normal thought processes and behavior. The ears, especially the right ear, also control states of consciousness, including falling asleep and awakening. High-frequency music exercises a tiny muscle in the middle ear, the stapedius. That muscle controls the movement of the stapes (stirrup) at the oval window where the higher frequencies of sound are transmitted into the inner ear (cochlea and vestibular canals) and on into the brain. If the muscle is weak (genetically or from some kind of assault such as psychoactive drugs) it cannot respond to a command from the brain, e.g., to relax. When relaxed, that muscle (an extensor) relaxes all the extensor muscles in the body. The knees tend to buckle so the person wants to lie down. The eyes lose their ability to focus and the eyelids droop. The stapedius is connected to the vagus network and when it relaxes it slows digestion, respiration, circulation, and heartbeat. Less sound can reach the brain, so cerebral integration slows down, reducing the ability to pay attention, think, or communicate. If it keeps vibrating to the sound in the environment, the body remains alert in all those ways. Listening to music (think violins) strengthens the muscle. When it becomes tonic -- strong and flexible -- it can allow the body to sleep, to awaken to alertness, and do many other things essential to mental and physical health. You would need to use music regularly to offset the effects of your medication, it's not a one-shot deal. You can learn more about Focused Listening here http://www.northernlightbooks.ca/mental-health-through-music/focused-listening/ If you want to learn more about the role of the ear in SSRI withdrawal syndrome, a download of my study will be available gratis to members of this site within a few days and you can reach me at rtallman[at]xplornet.ca for a copy. If you spend some time at my website, I think you will begin to understand the ear problems that have "run in your family."

Laurna T:

 

That's fascinating. The reason that I say that is because I do have ear problems. Maybe not what you're talking about. I have Tinnitus which got really loud when I got off Zyprexa and constantly heard a loud external bass sound that drove me nuts. I also get ear infections easily, as well as had ear surgery for surfer's ear in both ears. Don't know if it's all connected but I'll check it out.

 

Thanks and hope your son the best

[Plshelp]

Spideygsm, 

 

Congrats on getting off Zyprexa and having minimal damage and minimal withdrawals!

 

I have talked with many ppl and researched as much as possible in regards to trying to overcome withdrawals, damage and initiating neuroplasticity. 

 

Outcome : the best answer is time. I hate hearing this bcus I'm so damaged. I've tried everything, well, within reason. The extent of neuronal damage from the antipsychotics is unknown. Some ppl heal fully, some partially and some not at all. 

 

For insomnia/fragmented sleep: I did try pot, I got severe headaches, bho concentrate gave me headaches, mdma(a minute amount-smaller than an Ativan) did nothing, cbd oil did nothing at all, zopiclone made me pass out, but I still woke up with my fragmented sleep times, supplements don't affect me, magnesium didn't help at all, melatonin doesn't do a thing, dark cherry juice did nothing, lavender oil capsules ingested and administered topically did nothing, herbal teas had no effect, binaural beats and isochronic tones didn't help me either and meditation didn't do a thing for me, as my mind is completely void of thought and I'm constantly in a numbed state.

 

They haven't helped me, but maybe they may help you. Maybe you already know of these things. 

 

Whatever you decide to do, take a methodical approach. Like for instance, if you're going to try herbal tea. Drink it at the same time every night an hour before bed. Do this for 2-3 weeks and keep a record of how it affects you. If there's no effect, or adverse effect, then try something else or just eliminate trials altogether. If it works, then keep doing it and add it to your recovery tool kit! 🙂

 

I wish I had more info for you, but I really tried to find a way to get better, after researching over 8 months, going on every forum and talking to as many ppl as I could. 

 

Keep exercising and doing what you feel is the best choice for you. You are the captain of your ship, so steer it into tranquil waters and away from the storms. 

 

Xo

[JanCarol]

Hey Spidey - 

 

20 hours ago, Spideygsm said:

Hypocrisy . Don’t recommend a supplement. Hmm. Yet it’s okay to tell somebody on SA to stop taking their psych drugs without talking to their Doctor first that may just be keeping the person alive. 

 

Hmm.  Hypocrisy?   No, but paradoxical, probably.  Cognitive dissonance, definitely.  That's usually what contributes to getting diag-nonsensed and drugged.

 

More often we tell them to keep taking their drugs, and not taper so quickly.  Most people are here because they want to come off of them, because they are struggling with toxic and damaging effects of the drugs (not the least of which is mood based).  Most people come here thinking they can get off the drugs in 6 weeks - 3 months, and are upset when we tell them it would be better if they took at least a year, or longer.

 

Like your Traz.  I suggested you stop tapering.

 

As far as "keeping you alive," you could explore the evidence-based information which says: your drugs may be making you worse.  Since you were started at an early age, it will be difficult to extract drug effects from problems in living.   "Runs in the Family" can be epigenetic (environmental, trauma runs in families, too) rather than genetic.

 

As far as supplements - they often cause more problems than they solve.  So - not the best answer.  Some people are helped, some people are harmed, and often the ones who get help find that the help is short lived.

 

I suggest a trip over to www.madinamerica.com and read the stories of other survivors - whose stories are often as extreme as your own - and how they walked away from diag-nonsense, DSM, and psychiatry.  Psychiatry is not a hard science, it's not even "Medical."  Yes, the drugs induce changes, and can be useful at times, but there are no studies which support the long term use of them - as clients are frequently told to "take these drugs for life."

 

Robert Whitaker:  "Anatomy of an Epidemic"

Joanna Moncrieff:  Myth of the Chemical Cure"

Peter Goetzsche, "Deadly Medicines and Organized Crime"

Irving Kirsch, "The Emperor's New Drugs" (antidepressants only perform as well as placebo - plus side effects)

Joseph Glenmullen, "Prozac Backlash," and "The Antidepressant Solution"

Dr. Timothy Scott, "America Fooled: The truth about Antidepressants, Antipsychotics, and How We've been Deceived"

Paris Williams, "Rethinking Madness"

Anything by Peter Breggin (warning, trigger alert)

I also recommend you check out Sean Blackwell's excellent "Bipolar or Waking Up"  website:  https://www.bipolarawakenings.com/  YouTube Channel:  https://www.youtube.com/user/bipolarorwakingup

  (while Blackwell's personal experience pales compared to yours and my own - his insights are applicable and useful)

These are just a few of the references I could offer to challenge your way of thinking about "broken brain" and "chemical imbalance" and "madness runs in my family."

I expect you to challenge back, as you have.  I used to think the same thing, yet here I am, undrugged, and I haven't had the urge to stalk anyone, strip naked to become invisible, or any of the other behaviours that got me diagnonsensed.  Sure - I talk to G-d a lot, and use a lot of symbolism to interpret my extreme states - which I still have.  But my body is no longer being broken by the drugs which were meant to fix my mind, but only broke my body.  It took me a number of years of exploring these things to come to the conclusion that - I had behavioural problems.   I was not living well as a Human Being, but that was not an "illness," only a bad strategy for coping.  It was several strategies which I learned in early childhood, and were extremely dysfunctional in adulthood.  I'm not problem free, nobody is.  But at least I'm not hammering on my brain with the drugs.

 

19 hours ago, Spideygsm said:

None of my mental issues are caused by the psych drugs.

 

Okay, but I would postulate that while they may have averted immense crisis in the short term - in the long term, they haven't solved any problems, and may be contributing to your problems (like the Wellbutrin and sleep thing, and the after-effects of Zyprexa)

 

19 hours ago, Spideygsm said:

Sometimes in life one has to pick their poison. I have 4 fused discs. One failed fusion. 

 

Sorry to hear about that.  Pain and psych stuff seem to go hand in hand.  

 

Here's the thing - people complaining of knee injury, went on a trial.  Half the people received real arthroscopy (meniscus trim), the other half received sham arthroscopy (they made the incisions but didn't do anything).  They both recovered at the same rate.  WTF?   (see also Irving Kirsch's "Emperor's New Drugs" for more info on how placebo works)

 

There is a new trend to stop using MRI's to diagnose back pain.  100 people go get an MRI whether they are in pain or not - and the same issues (bulging discs, rotations, etc.) show up for the people who are in pain as for the ones who are not.  What is the difference?

 

You have had the fusion surgery, I am sorry it gives you so much pain.  Perhaps the gabapentin is a solution for now.  Just bear in mind, if you ever want to come off of it, it has issues, and needs to be tapered carefully!  Its cousin, pregabalin, isn't much better.  Studies show that pregabalin vs. placebo did not compare favourably.   I have docs offering me both of these for my chronic pain (along with amytryptaline), and I am currently refusing them as solutions (even though they are the most popular solutions (Right now).

 

Tips for tapering off Gabapentin

 

20 hours ago, Spideygsm said:

If I make a general comment about people not stepping up and being tough, that’s an observation that’s true.

 

 

There is an element of truth to this.

 

We are taught by the doctor-gods that this little pill will take care of that.

 

Don't want to change your diet or exercise?  Here - metformin and statin will make your numbers better (even as they cause other damage).  Having pain?  Here - take an NSAID which will cause GERD, and we'll give you a PPI for that.  After awhile, the doctors are drugging the drug effects.  When really - lifestyle - if it can work - is the best solution.

 

Many of us are conditioned to the techno-wiz quick easy solution, instead of sitting with discomfort.  Many of us would rather continue eating wheat products, when they are contributing to an inflammatory condition (note:  even if you are not celiac, modern wheat has many damaging properties, ask your natural doctor friend, it's beyond the scope of this website - but is often a first port of call for chronic pain).

 

But I will tell you this:  withdrawal, and those who have been through it, creates some of the toughest cookies I know.  If one can survive withdrawal, s/he can survive anything.

 

Additionally, there are chemical effects that - all the meditation, yoga, exercise, diet - cannot fix.  The only answer is to wait, ride the wave until it passes.  We spend a lot of time on this website encouraging people to sit with their symptoms instead of jumping up to "fix" them.  Psych drugs are a huge, global social and medical experiment, humans haven't messed with our own minds and bodies in these ways - ever.   That's why I recommend a multifaceted toolkit, so that, if you become exercise intolerant (as many do), perhaps fish oil, or bananas, or tai chi will help.

 

20 hours ago, Spideygsm said:

Wellbutrine- 37.5mg now then off

 

Wait - What?  Are you now tapering Wellbutrin?  A 75% decrease?  Please update your signature to include your current drug regime.

 

Please let your brain & body rest and recover before making giant changes like this.

 

You seem to also be stuck on modifying doses in the sizes they give you at the pharmacy, and this is dangerous and too rapid.

How to Make a Liquid from Tablets or Capsule

Using an Oral Syringe and other Tapering Techniques

Using A Digital Scale To Measure Doses

How to Cut Up Tablets or Pills Using A Pill Cutter

 

So here I am - a person who doesn't believe in the drugs - asking you, suggesting - that you stay on the drugs.  Hypocrisy?  No, the voice of experience.

 

35 minutes ago, Plshelp said:

Whatever you decide to do, take a methodical approach. Like for instance, if you're going to try herbal tea. Drink it at the same time every night an hour before bed. Do this for 2-3 weeks and keep a record of how it affects you. If there's no effect, or adverse effect, then try something else or just eliminate trials altogether. If it works, then keep doing it and add it to your recovery tool kit! 🙂

 

 

I like what Plshelp has said here.  This is an experiment, of n=1.  So, as an evidence based scientist, it is up to you to ensure that only one variable at a time is moved or changed, and keep records on how that change has helped or hindered your progress.

 

If you move the pieces every which way, you won't know whether it was the fast Zyprexa Taper, the Wellbutrin decrease, the Trazadone reinstatement, or the ashwaganda or CBD that is helping or harming you.  Right now, I'm a bit confused as to your regime.

 

Please update your signature to include your current drug regime, including dates and doses of recent changes.  Please note that many moderators are from other countries, so 6/1 can be June 1st, or Jan 6th.  Please specify by spelling the month.

 

It is my understanding that:

• You are reinstating Trazadone at 100 mg.  This seems like a good amount.  If you had been tapering at 10% you would be somewhere around 109-125 mg.
• You are tapering Wellbutrin with a 75% cut?  Please clarify.

 

I know I'm challenging a lot of the things you've come here with.  In my experience, reality needs to get shaken up in order to reform viewpoint - an essential part of neuroplasticity and changing your brain.  You don't have to agree with me - but if you are brave, you will check the references I've given you, and find out where you really are on the spectrum of Madness.  There's a thing called "Mad Pride," sometimes called "Mental and Emotional Diversity" - if you can be who you are without harming others, if you can take responsibility for your states and behaviours  - then why is this considered an "illness"?  

 

You are, of course, in charge of your own destiny.  I am just a disembodied voice on the internet.  But I have to speak my Truth, too, and if you choose not explore my Truth, well then, fair dinkum.  We're all grownups in here.

 

I hope you see the Sun today!

[Spideygsm]

7 hours ago, Plshelp said:

Spideygsm, 

 

Congrats on getting off Zyprexa and having minimal damage and minimal withdrawals!

Plshelp,

 

I’ve been off the pill for 13 weeks but I didn’t have minimal withdrawals and I’m still getting return symptoms especially this week. When I started withdrawals I started scrambling for information. That’s when I read the horror stories and how bad, terrible and impossible it is to get off Zyprexa. To me it was discouraging, depressing, and all I read about were failures. It seemed there was no hope. I quit reading that stuff because I had no choice but to get off Zyprexa. That’s the reason I try to minimize the withdrawal process as much as possible. If somebody reads my story, I don’t want to discourage anybody as much as possible. It is extremely difficult, one has to be mentally tough and use every ounce off willpower there is in the body. 

 

It is impossible to describe the feeling in my body and especially the mind not having Zyprexa in my system. Not feeling completely drugged, not living in a cloud, not having any emotions. That part feels great. I’m not better but I feel so much better. I’m looking forward to the future. That is something new for me

 

If somebody wants to know exactly what I experienced, send me a message. 

 

Thanks for your comments

[Altostrata]

Thanks for the info, Plshelp. Please add your experiences to the appropriate topics in Symptoms, people are searching for miracle cures in all the usual places.

 

Spidey, what we're concerned with here is minimizing your withdrawal symptoms so as to improve your quality of life as you come off drugs. Whether you want to come off drugs is your decision alone, we don't force anyone to do it. If a person thinks their drug is "life-saving," by all means, stay on it.

 

Your observations about the quality of discourse on this site are accurate. We are open to the Web and anyone can join, clueless or not. Not everyone is as focused as you. This site's level of discourse is actually much higher than most.

 

Many people come here confused by the drugs they've taken, the advice they've gotten from doctors, and their general life circumstances. I am amazed every day by how many of our members learn and grow. This happens, too.

[Spideygsm]

JanCarol:

 

I wanted to comment on your outstanding dissertation.

 

1) Thank you so much for caring about helping somebody who’s been a total jerk to you and to ChessieCat as well as saying some inappropriate things about members in general (apologies to all). I wear my emotions on my sleeve

 

2) I can’t really retort to anything because I agree with what you’ve said and suggested. I do share a little different opinion on a few items but I’m in the minority so it’s not appropriate to to argue something I could never win. Plus, what you’ve discussed works with the majority of people and not an oddball like me. 

 

I’ll update my signature. Wellbutrin has been tapered and not like I’ve written. After I stabilized my Zyprexa withdrawl, my Doctor wanted to reduce the Wellbutrin because it can cause insomnia and anxiety while taking it.

 

I’m actually a little luckier than most people. I’ve always had the ability to start, stop, change dose, reduce dose and change medications fairly easily with the exception of Benzos, Ambien, and Zyprexa. Opioids were tough but don’t hold a candle to what psych drugs do. I have a very strong will and don’t like to fail. However, everybody is different. What bothers me may not bother others.

 

I’ve also learned something important too about Zyprexa. Just when I think I’m getting better—NOT!

 

Thanks for the education

 

 

[ChessieCat]

20 minutes ago, Spideygsm said:

I’ve always had the ability to start, stop, change dose, reduce dose and change medications fairly easily

 

There are SA members who say they have gone on and off their 1 drug several times with no problem.  Then, because the effects on the CNS are cumulative, BAM their CNS has become sensitised and they experience great difficulties.

 

So what worked previously may not work in the future.  I urge you to be cautious. 

[Songbird]

3 hours ago, Spideygsm said:

JanCarol:

 

I wanted to comment on your outstanding dissertation.

 

1) Thank you so much for caring about helping somebody who’s been a total jerk to you and to ChessieCat as well as saying some inappropriate things about members in general (apologies to all). I wear my emotions on my sleeve

 

 

Spidey, thanks for your apologies.  I enjoyed JanCarol's posts too.  As I said, we here do care very much.  We don't tell people to stop taking their meds, we are here to help people who want to come off meds to do it safely.  We don't tell people not to take any supplements, we warn them of the risks of taking them, and can't recommend specific supplements because individual results are so variable.  We do our best to help people within the limitations of an internet forum.

[Skeeter]

S,

One way to find out on CBD (yes, you can say CBD, like I said).  It is legal in all 50 states and DC.  It is illegal in many countries though, sadly.  It has NO psychoactive compounds, so it is a shame.  Here is how you find out if it works,  It is what I did, and my sleep fell all to heck again.  I have to take it for 2 weeks to get up a steady level for it to work, I do not know if you paid attention, but I take it a different way, too (do you take the pills, somehow that is what I thought, but there is tincture, etc, etc.), so I would be VERY interested, to see how long an oral dose takes to help with sleep.  So, as I was saying, you can stop it at any time, and see how your sleep does.  If you start taking it again, please see how long it takes to work.  No use spending your money on a placebo, and a good way to find out if it does work.  You want to help people here, you have said that, your experience on the CBD thread would be amazing whether you find out it is a placebo or it is not.  For me, it is not.  My watch tracks my sleep, and boy does it suffer without!  Be aware, though, that the biggest issue I have seen in Zyprexa WD is disturbed sleep patterns in a HUGE way.  I am pleased that you have great sleep right now.  A lot of people report help with sleep, esp with full spectrum CBD. I will be posting my story soon, too.

Good luck!

Skeeter

[JanCarol]

Hey Spidey - 

 

Thank you for the apologies.  And - thanks for the update in your sig!  So you haven't yet updosed the Trazodone?

 

8 hours ago, Spideygsm said:

my Doctor wanted to reduce the Wellbutrin because it can cause insomnia and anxiety while taking it.

 

Yeah, your Doctor did it too fast.  That will take a few months (at least) to shake out of your system, too, and you may be suffering rebound effects, including sleep disruption and/or anxiety.

 

At this point, it's hard to say how much of your symptoms are rapid taper of Zyprexa, rapid taper of Wellbutrin, or rapid taper of Trazadone.  The docs are doing a multi-experiment on you - and it's up to you to get them to stop!

 

8 hours ago, Spideygsm said:

 

I’m actually a little luckier than most people. I’ve always had the ability to start, stop, change dose, reduce dose and change medications fairly easily with the exception of Benzos, Ambien, and Zyprexa.

 

Yeah, here's the thing.  It's a badger hole, with a badger in it.  You've put your hand in the hole a few times and haven't been bitten.  Like Chessie said, the more times you put your hand in the hole, the more chance there is that you will get bitten.

 

What was easy before may stop being easy.  Don't count on it.  Play it safe.

 

8 hours ago, Spideygsm said:

Zyprexa. Just when I think I’m getting better—NOT!

 

Don't worry, we've seen this before - it's why we are so exceedingly cautious.  There are two factors at play here:

Delayed Onset of Withdrawal Symptoms - sometimes it takes several months for the full force of withdrawal to hit.  13 weeks is a very short time, based on what we are used to.  

and

Waves and Windows - you think you are better, then you are worse, then you are better again, then you are worse.  The waves are the worse, the windows are the better.  After going through withdrawal, I've learned that emotions, in fact, LIFE comes in windows and waves.  The benefit to knowing this - is that you know - even the worst of the worst is only temporary.  It's important to log the good times and the bad, so that when you hit the bad times - you can read over and see - I've been better before, I'll be better again.

 

Part of this is how we heal.  Different systems go offline and haywire as we heal.  I describe this like a highway repair (though our nervous system, endocrine system, brain and body are much more complex than a highway):
 

Quote

 

I really like Bubble's phrase:  "Brain is closed down for repairs."  I'd like to expand on that a bit - parts of your brain are closed down.  Imagine very complicated road works with about 25 intersections coming together.  This week, the traffic lights are shut down, and you need a cop to manage the intersection.  When that is repaired, well, maybe they need to re-do the shoulders, so they can divert traffic onto them for later when the lanes are being repaired.  Then there's the repairing of the lanes - it doesn't all happen at once.  Sometimes they need to rip up the old tarmac, change all the drainage routes, relocate the services for electricity and plumbing, get down to the foundation, and re-grade it, lay new gravel, then steel rebar, pouring concrete foundation, then laying the asphalt.  Sometimes you will go for 5 months, and the road is still closed, but you can't see what they are doing to it!  Each phase requires time to set and dry.  Then you can paint the lines on it, and go to another part of the intersection - perhaps one of the other incoming roads needs the same treatment.  Perhaps there are exit ramps and roundabouts and flyover lanes that need repair.  Each of which takes time.

 

Now imagine the millions of networks in your brain healing - they don't just, "heal" and be done.  It's a construction process, like Bubble was saying.  Road works for the brain. 

 

Just my way of saying, be patient with yourself.  It might be the tarmac this week - but the lines aren't on the road and you're disoriented.  Maybe the signals are crossed at the intersections, or the signs are removed or there are detours.  Be gentle with yourself, be patient with yourself.  It's a complex process, and the gentler you are, the more easily you will heal.  It does no good to shake your fist and yell at the construction guys while they are doing their work!  So just wave (lol, wave!) at the worker, declare to yourself, "This is yet another symptom of withdrawal," and drive carefully past the obstacle.

 

 

Here is a video which explains the process like a Rubik's cube (4 minutes):

 

Here is Alto's definitive article on the subject:

Intro to Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome

 

That should keep you busy for awhile!

 

Please hold and don't think about any drug changes for at least three months until you see how all of these fast tapers are going to pan out!  I'd like to see you hold for 6 months - but I realise that people get impatient.

 

And - I hope you see the sun today!  (all is forgiven)

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2018 by JanCarol

[Spideygsm]

Update 

 

The main reason I was put on Zyprexa was to control my mania and psychosis caused by mania. The Zyprexa helped some but never completely stopped those issues while I was taking it. Last week I had a pretty bad manic episode. I took off in my car, drove 300 miles, and bought a house. Now we’re trying to get out of a bad situation I put my wife and myself into. 

 

I’ve also been having pretty bad anxiety and sleep issues. It’s almost like I’m back to having withdrawal symptoms again. As said in SA, I’m having waves. Although not as intense as during  the actual withdrawals, it does suck right now. 

 

I’m in kind of a pickle right now. I don’t think my mania was caused by Zyprexa withdrawl since that was a preexisting condition, but everything else I’m feeling i think is related. 

 

It’s been about 4 months since my last dose. Weird how you think your getting better then Wham!

[apollyon]

Thank you for sharing your story getting off. You're right that I should probably stop reading online, but I'm trying to find some hope that there's a way out. I can't believe they keep us on these meds for so long.