arwilliams Zyprexa long term vs withdrawal

[arwilliams]

I have completely lost my faith in the FDA/government/health care companies for this sole issue at this point(there are likely other issues if stuff like this is ignored).  Many side effects like diabetes and weight gain often stop when the discontinuation of the medication but in my experience Zyprexa and Seroquel were never even listed with insomnia side effects on the sheets I receive even to this day(I am still taking this drug).  They say restlessness on my sheets and on Lilly's website it does say insomnia happens to about 1% of people.  Zyprexa & Seroquel are 2 most sedating anti psychotics and I have heard that they literally prescribe these to people going through Benzo withdrawal. 

No is my answer.  Using that logic I would be surprised if there is anything is really much stronger.  I'm afraid to say this but Neuroleptics can actually kill brain cells so i don't think this is just a withdrawal situation in many cases.  

[Songbird]

Re computer use and blue light - I'm useless in the morning and do my best work at night, so I have installed a program on my computer called Iris which cuts the blue light.  There is another program called f.lux that is similar.  If you need to use the computer at night, one of these programs should at least help.

[JanCarol]

Hey AR - 

 

First, will you please update your signature to include the lithium you just started, and the date you started it?  Thank you.

 

The best way to get off small doses of strong drugs like Zyprexa is using a liquid taper.  In fact, I would say it is essential, as dry cutting is not very accurate, even with a microgram scale.

 

How to Make a Liquid from Tablets or Capsule

 

Using an Oral Syringe and other Tapering Techniques

 

There is also a discussion of "how low to go before dropping off" - here:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/11051-when-to-end-the-taper-and-jump-to-zero/ 

 

On 5/26/2018 at 1:48 PM, Spideygsm said:

There’s an herbal sleep aid out of India called Ashwagandha that can be purchased on Amazon. I don’t know any of the specifics or safety. Somebody just told me about it this week. No plans to try it. 

 

Uh, yeah, no..  It's not a sleep aid, it's a nervous system tonic.  It does not induce sleep, but helps calm the nervous and endocrine systems - a bit.  Your doctor friend is misinformed, he read it on a list somewhere, but doesn't understand the herbal application of it.  He is right that it takes 1-2 weeks to work - most herbal medicines do not give immediate results, and in fact, are sometimes very hard work to use effectively.  Most Westerners would prefer to choose opioids or muscle relaxants for back pain instead of 4x castor oil packs a day, exercises, and massage, acupuncture, osteopathic (or chiropractic) adjustment.  It's not easy work, avoiding doctors whose solutions seem to be so fast and "effective," (until you pay the piper)

 

There is a topic about Ashwaganda, here:  Ashwaganda for Anxiety, Stress and Toxic Overload 

It doesn't affect my sleep at all, but it has helped me regulate cortisol spikes (sometimes interpreted as panic attacks).

 

On 5/27/2018 at 12:08 AM, arwilliams said:

Comparing melatonin to Zyprexa is quite literally comparing a mosquito bite to a bullet wound.

 

Agreed - none of the simples can address this thing called psych drugs - which are the hugest human experiment ever performed on a global scale.  We've never seen anything like it!

 

However - if the simple melatonin is coupled with sleep hygiene, and light/dark therapy, and mindfulness to help with the late night ruminations - then you might start to see some relief.  It's a toolkit, not just this thing or that one.

 

On 5/27/2018 at 12:29 AM, Spideygsm said:

In some parts of Europe a prescription is needed to get Melatonin.

 

This is true for Australia, as well.  There is "homeopathic melatonin" available OTC, but it's just basically water with the "vibration" of melatonin (whatever that is).

 

On 5/27/2018 at 9:45 AM, Spideygsm said:

start taking an herbal remedy

 

At Surviving Antidepressants, we do not recommend taking things.  The only supplements we recommend are magnesium (which, actually, can help regulate sleep, among tons of other benefits) and fish oil (which helps to heal the brain).  Magnesium and Omega-3 fish oil

 

For example, Valerian, a common sleep remedy, hits on the same liver enzymes as many psych drugs, and some of the same neurotransmitters as well.  Some people can get in quite a pickle with valerian.  

 

On 5/28/2018 at 12:57 PM, arwilliams said:

  I have considered taking Lithium at least temporarily because it is known to have almost non withdrawal side effects but might help my sleep/stability I'm guessing.

 

Oh boy, that's a can of worms.

 

If by "non withdrawal side effects" you might go into full blown mania, then - perhaps it doesn't have withdrawal side effects - but can get you diagnosed with bipolar when you come off it.

 

Yes, low dose lithium does help with regulating your sleep/wake cycle, or so they say, it never did for me.    

 

And now that I'm off of it, my sleep is way out of line.  Sure, my 2 year taper of it was pretty uneventful - but that was a 10% taper, all the way down (except for errors).  

 

I had to taper because it killed my thyroid, and it was killing my kidneys, and straining my adrenals, also contributing to metabolic disorder (zyprexa + lithium would be double trouble), fatty liver.  And my blood tests were fine!  My p-doc kept saying, "blood tests fine!" and I'm saying, "but what about diabetes insipidus?  why do I have to pee every hour?"  she looked and said, "oh yeah, diabetes insipidus IS one of the side effects of lithium" even though she denied it at first.  

So - 2.5 years off the lithium, I still have metabolic disorder, fatty liver, and my kidneys are fussy.  I was on lithium for 10 years, which isn't really that long considering it's supposed to be "for life."  

Every year that you take it increases your chances of symptoms from it by 10%.  That means in 10 years, it's a certainty that you will have a symptom (I had 3 major symptoms).

Also, there is the "narrow therapeutic window", which means that - the dose which might (note I say MIGHT) help is very close to toxicity.  

 

On 5/27/2018 at 10:02 AM, Altostrata said:

Taking a bit of melatonin signals to your body that it's time to shut down for the night. You need to help it along by lowering the lights and getting off the computer.

 

Other tips - if you take 10-15 minutes of bright light upon awakening, it triggers your pineal gland to manufacture melatonin to be released at sundown.  There are lamps for this, or if you are lucky enough to live within 34 degrees latitude of the equator, natural sunlight is best.

 

There is a free computer program called    f.lux    which helps take the blue out of your monitor screen at sunset, giving you a natural sunset.  I use the blue-blocking glasses at night, as well.  They are the cheapest and easiest tool to use - I keep them by the computer, and sometimes I can feel my eyes craving a break from the bright screen.

 

This post is too long, I'm going to send it and start another....

[JanCarol]

On 5/29/2018 at 8:27 AM, arwilliams said:

If you read up on the h1 receptors Zyprexa has the highest affinity of all drugs.  Literally the highest.

 

Hey AR - 

 

You might enjoy reading this article:

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/07/the_most_important_article_on.html

 

Here's the thing - it's dose dependant. The champagne fountain (or rum, as the Last Psychiatrist calls for) - fills up the H1 receptors first, and as the dose increases, it cascades down to hit other receptors.

 

This is why Zyprexa (and Seroquel) are challenging to taper, because not only are you reducing the dose that's hitting the receptor - you are changing what receptors it hits as you change doses.

 

All of the "antipsychotics" work like this, with different ones having different challenges.

 

Consider Zyprexa, it affects approximately 17 different subtypes of receptors, while Haldol affects two dopamine receptor subtypes. In between, we have Abilify, which affects 10 different receptor subtypes, while Seroquel affects seven different receptor subtypes. When these medications are lowered, the body has to adapt to the number of receptors that become unblocked. (from www.holisticpsychiatrist.com )

 

I know you are looking for a step-down to help (and that's what the holistic psychiatrist does) - but we cannot recommend drugs here at SA, as we are not doctors, and cannot catch you if you fall or something goes wrong.  And with psych drugs, the chances of something going wrong is very good - so we don't recommend any at all.

 

If you read my tedious thread, you will see what I was like while I was still under the fog of lithium.  Yes, it "stabilizes mood" but basically it does this by flattening everything out.  The bad stuff, the good stuff, the extreme stuff, until everything is coloured grey, all the same.  Oh, I got a check in the mail.  Whatever.  Oh I got a bill in the mail.  Whatever.  Oh it's raining, whatever.  Oh the sun is shining, whatever.  If you haven't been on it for very long, you may be able to come off of it quickly and not worry about it.

 

Please - please - please put the lithium dose and when you started it in your signature. 

[arwilliams]

@JanCarol I am not taking lithium currently.  I am going to try a 10% taper of Zyprexa first.  I can tell with in 2-3 days of the Zyprexa because it impacts my sleep so directly so I am doing an incredibly fast taper.  Against everyone's advice on here but oh well.  Risperdone is less sedating so I had considered that temporarily:  The last psychiatrist is good but some stuff on his site is well misleading.  Best example I can give is his article argueing from what I have gathered that depakote/lithium plus an antipsychotic isn't really that much more effective by each by its own because it is just totaling 2 groups of being effective 25% and 25% to make a 50% group of people.  Each drug works successful on a quarter I believe he puts it so together half of people are effectively treated.  Considering 2 drugs work on different receptors and considering you experience different side effects depending on the time of year those quarter pecentages are well changing.

[DaleGarrison]

arwilliams,

 

I used to be on as high as 10-20mg of zyprexa a night to sleep and all I had was anixety and ptsd. I was just like you on "only" 2.5mg to get a good rest, but eventually that dose escalated almost 10 fold to 20mg a night. Although I cold turkeyed off of it (VERY BAD , do the 10% taper or slower as others have suggested), I didn't sleep not one hour for over 2 days, then I'd sleep 1 to 3 hours for the next two weeks. (not to mention WD psychosis/hallucinations that coming off the drug caused) This has happened everytime I've cold turkeyed off of it .I gained over 90lbs and I became pre diabetic on this drug. 

 

Zyprexa also decreases your brain volume by 10% after being on it for just 3 months. I've been off of zyprexa for 10 months and I sleep 5 to 6.5 hours a night. If I'm not feeling very anxious there is a rare night I can sleep 7 to 7.5 hours . I'm hoping in another year I'll be up to 8 to 10 hours like I was pre-benzodiazepines/antipsychotics.

 

I understand zyprexa is a pretty "reliable" drug like a benzodiazepine for insomnia , paranoia, and any anxiety. By virtue of blocking dopamine ( in particular) , serotonin, and histamine, you couldn't care less about anyhting around you besides sleeping and eating . It even tickles GABA A,  BZD a  bit similar to a hypnotic z drug/ benzo, and paired with blocking all that agitating excess dopamine , and adrenalin, zyprexa in some cases can be a pretty pleasant drug to rely on if you have severe psychic tension/misery paired with oppressive insomnia. I was there . I get that . 

 

However, like all the heavyweights here like JanCarol, Altostrata, ect. have said its a dangerous drug with very limited uses, that can cause permanent side effects , some of which can be debilitating . Not worth it . Taper and get off now if all you're taking it is simply for  anixety/insomnia. Like Altostrata said, pills for sleep are due to lifestyle problems (i'd even argue the same for anixety - its your life that needs fixing).

 

Good Luck

 

-Dale

[Altostrata]

19 hours ago, arwilliams said:

I have completely lost my faith in the FDA/government/health care companies for this sole issue at this point(there are likely other issues if stuff like this is ignored).  Many side effects like diabetes and weight gain often stop when the discontinuation of the medication but in my experience Zyprexa and Seroquel were never even listed with insomnia side effects on the sheets I receive even to this day(I am still taking this drug).  They say restlessness on my sheets and on Lilly's website it does say insomnia happens to about 1% of people.  Zyprexa & Seroquel are 2 most sedating anti psychotics and I have heard that they literally prescribe these to people going through Benzo withdrawal. 

No is my answer.  Using that logic I would be surprised if there is anything is really much stronger.  I'm afraid to say this but Neuroleptics can actually kill brain cells so i don't think this is just a withdrawal situation in many cases.  

 

I think you have discovered that the new antipsychotics have been vastly oversold, physicians have been indoctrinated to prescribe them unnecessarily, and they carry high risks.

 

While antipsychotics have intense effects on the brain, the extent of lasting damage is unknown. In general, not much is known about how any psychiatric drug affects the brain in the long term. Medicine doesn't know and we don't know. Please do not dwell on that.

 

More salient to me is the way the antipsychotics severely degrade health overall. Tardive dyskinesia is a very serious side effect. Diabetes is a terrible disease. Nobody should ever take any drug that increase the risk of diabetes unless you truly have no other choice.

 

So, Zyprexa for sleep -- not good. As I said, doctors have been indoctrinated by the drug companies to prescribe it for sleep, making it very, very profitable. But not so good for you.

 

It's up to you whether you want to taper off Zyprexa. If you do, we've given you the information. It can be done.

 

As for what else you can do to improve your sleep, we emphasize non-drug methods. If you're looking for a drug to replace Zyprexa, you'll have to look elsewhere.

[JanCarol]

Hey AR - 

20 hours ago, arwilliams said:

 I am not taking lithium currently.

 

This is good news.  

 

Lithium can actually induce insomnia in many people:

 

https://www.medhelp.org/posts/Bipolar-Disorder/Lithium-induced-insomnia/show/401112

and

https://www.ehealthme.com/ds/lithium-carbonate/insomnia/

 

and always messes with REM sleep (which all of the Psych drugs do - something which can take years to correct)
https://www.quora.com/How-does-taking-Lithium-affect-sleep

 

21 hours ago, arwilliams said:

I am going to try a 10% taper of Zyprexa first.  I can tell with in 2-3 days of the Zyprexa because it impacts my sleep so directly so I am doing an incredibly fast taper.  Against everyone's advice on here but oh well.

 

Ok, the 10% sounds good.

 

But what do you mean by a fast taper?  We recommend one taper a month.  

 

Why are you going against what "everyone" has said here, against the experience of people who have succeeded at doing this?  What good will it do, and is it worth the risk to mess you up further?

 

I wish I had a dime for every time someone here has said, "I'm gonna do it this way regardless of what you suggest at SA" and then returns in a month, or even 6 months, saying, "Woe!  I wish I'd done what you said!"

 

Maybe you will be one of the lucky ones.  That "lucky" figure might be as high as 40% - or it might be as low as 10%.  Are you willing to take that risk?

 

Please don't be one of those. 

 

Obviously, the choice is yours, I'm 14,000 miles away from wherever you are, and you will do what you do.  I have people in my family, and close friends who don't listen to me, either, much to my dismay, and I have to watch them go through what they go through, in spite of what I know. 

 

21 hours ago, arwilliams said:

 The last psychiatrist is good but some stuff on his site is well misleading.  Best example I can give is his article argueing from what I have gathered that depakote/lithium plus an antipsychotic isn't really that much more effective by each by its own because it is just totaling 2 groups of being effective 25% and 25% to make a 50% group of people.  Each drug works successful on a quarter I believe he puts it so together half of people are effectively treated.  Considering 2 drugs work on different receptors and considering you experience different side effects depending on the time of year those quarter pecentages are well changing.

 

Actually, that is quite accurate.  That's because doctors don't really know what the relationship is between the different receptors and the effects it has on a person.  It's just blind, dumb luck, when you get a "good response" from a psych drug.  To use your argument for lithium - it does something completely different to Zyprexa, and yet you want to use it as a "step down"?  This is apples, oranges and bananas.  Or, substituting a thorn for a splinter.  Or out of the frying pan into the fire.  Choose your metaphor as you will.

 

I haven't visited this in awhile, but you might enjoy it:

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/3281-neurotransmitters-a-primer/

 

Please update your signature to include:

Current dose, and - date of new taper, and new dose.

 

I hope you see the sun today!

 

[arwilliams]

I just want clarify.  There are sleep pathways and there are dopamine pathways.

This specific post below seems to imply that your sleep pathways over time could get permanently in a hyperactive state there by preventing you from sleeping with out the drug ever.

 

Quote

Over time, Chouinard and Jones noted, the dopaminergic pathways tended to become permanently dysfunctional. They became irreversibly stuck in a hyperactive state,

 

[Spideygsm]

Arw

 

There’s no easy way out, there’s no shortcut, I couldn’t find the silver bullet myself, nor read anywhere where somebody has.

 

You seem value your sleep more than your health. It took about 13 years taking Zyprexa until the bad side effects caught up to me. The weight hit quick but I was lucky and controlled that through diet and exercise. Insomnia sucks, especially the insomnia during antipsychotic withdrawl. However, your body will ultimately get enough sleep to get by. 

 

On June 2 you said you’re gonna try and taper by 10%. Aren’t you taking about 0.625mg now?

 

Just be careful and cautious

[arwilliams]

@Spideygsm .46 now.  My precision scale isn't perfect which likely means 6% of 2.5 is the highest accuracy I can go and then I will have to jump ship to zero.

 

Andy the best success store I have seen jumped off around 1.25mg so well we will see what I decided to do.  

 

I figured I might hold at the lowest value I can sleep at for a month or 2 and then try to jump ship.

 

I know from experience going from 2.5mg to zero doesn't work at all.

 

Might also try trazodone although that has done nothing for me before.

 

I have also been thinking that if I can take .1mg  of Zyprexa or something I may just do that for as long as possible.

 

I have read dosage of Zyprexa correlates with how much time you can take the medication with out experiencing terrible side effects.

[arwilliams]

@lucyinthesky I just wanted to say I am 23 having been on Zyprexa for 4 years and have experienced unbearable insomnia just like you.

 

I wish we had a hug button like we do on https://www.mentalhealthforum.net/forum/ 

[andy]

On 5/29/2018 at 9:42 AM, arwilliams said:

My concern is that the brain is permanently damaged.  I have been reading Robert Whitakers book and wanted to quote this part.

 

 

I dont believe in permanent damage the brain can heal like anything else if you stop putting garbage into it and feed it the proper nutrition ie high dose healthy fats

The brain is made of fat feed it big doses of omega 3s to heal the damage 

Nothing made me sleep excercise ,time  and diet got me out the pit slowly

 

Edited June 6, 2018 by ChessieCat
extracted response from quote

[arwilliams]

So I have begun to notice that if I take my medication past 7:30 I don't fall asleep that night.

 

is this maybe just a coincidence?

 

The weird thing is that this has always happened am I am not sure why.

 

This is not simply an amount of the blood in my drug because I am now at less then 50% dose of Zyprexa but I still have the same issue today that I had at twice the dosage with Zyprexa.  If you calculate the half life I should of had this issue at a much higher dosage relative to the amount I am taking.

 

It is almost as if the spike in the drug helps me fall asleep and not the drug itself.

 

My Google fu failed to find a similar article currently.

[Spideygsm]

arw,

 

I read Andy's entire story in his topic referenced in the previous post several months ago when I was really struggling. It inspired me to stay on course. Andy's 100% correct. The only thing that has helped me is not drugs, but exercise and eating well. Don't drink caffeine or eat sugars. I tried Trazodone but it didn't help (Big Mistake). Now that's something I'm gonna get to taper off of too. Time is our helper. I'm a Westerner and we want everything solved immediately. We're taught at a young age to take a pill for everything. That's a terrible attitude when trying to get off any of these psych drugs. 

 

Andy's done it, I've done it (but not completely healed yet), Holly57's done it. Read the stories. Time, discipline, good attitude, and mental toughness is what it takes. I firmly believe exercise is the #1 key to getting off these drugs. It takes mental toughness just to exercise because you feel so tired with zero energy. It relieved my anxiety, tiredness, and other symptoms for a few hours a day. As time passed, I felt better longer each day. That's a sign your body and mind can feel better without drugs and gives you a positive outlook that after it's all over, I'm gonna feel good again.

 

It's not just getting off Zyprexa, I think it also takes a lifestyle change of diet and exercise.

[arwilliams]

Any advice for products/ideas to help slow down the tapering?  

I am trying to find a school or college that has a .0001mg scale because I doubt I can get a custom-compounded liquid from my doctor.  

 

I am going to run out of precision on my precision scale fairly soon.

 

I am on .015(by weight in grams) on my Zyprexa pill.  

I end up having to drop by .002 or so because the scale fluctuates.

 

I am reluctant to try this http://www.pharminfotech.co.nz/manual/Formulation/mixtures/olanzapine.html

considering I really have no idea what/where I'll be buying these products and I need the custom-compounded liquid I think.

[ChessieCat]

On 2/8/2013 at 2:00 PM, Altostrata said:

Using a liquid to taper: Make your own liquid
However, like other drugs that are not particularly soluble, you can make a suspension as our member Rhi describes below

 

According to http://www.pharminfotech.co.nz/manual/Formulation/mixtures/olanzapine.html

Quote

Olanzapine (as crushed Zyprexa^® tablets) is stable for up to 6 hours at room temperature and up to 48 hours refrigerated in water and the following beverages; orange juice, apple juice, cola and milk.

 
Also see http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2693-how-to-make-a-liquid-from-tablets-or-capsules/
 
If you want to experiment with dissolving the tablet further:
 
https://www.caymanchem.com/pdfs/11937.pdf

 

Quote

Olanzapine is sparingly soluble in aqueous buffers. For maximum solubility in aqueous buffers, olanzapine should first
be dissolved in DMSO and then diluted with the aqueous buffer of choice. Olanzapine has a solubility of approximately
0.5 mg/ml in a 1:1 solution of DMSO:PBS (pH 7.2) using this method. We do not recommend storing the aqueous
solution for more than one day.

 

http://www.perrigo.com/files/rx/pdfs/pds173-ORA-Plus.pdf

 

Quote

ORA-Plus is an aqueous-based vehicle consisting of a synergistic blend of suspending agents that have a high degree of colloidal
activity. The suspending agents form a structured, gel-like matrix which suspends particles and allow for little settling. ORA-Plus
is buffered to a slightly acidic pH to help reduce degradation of medicinal agents through oxidation. An anti-foam agent is incorporated in
ORA-Plus to allow for vigorous shaking with minimal foam.

 

 

[arwilliams]

I should add, I am not convinced there is a Syringe that is small enough with size of medication I am working with.  I am some what money strapped so I doubt a multi hundred dollar pippet(i believe this is what we used in my chemistry class for sizes this small) would be ideal but could be a last resort.

[ChessieCat]

It may be better if you use the wafers:

 

On 2/8/2013 at 2:00 PM, Altostrata said:

Using orally disintegrating Zyprexa tablets or wafers to taper
Orally disintegrating tablets (ODT) or wafers, which dissolve in the mouth, come in a range of dosages (see above). Conceivably, one might very carefully cut up the wafers to taper, but they may be difficult to cut accurately. (I haven't done this and don't know of anyone who has, please let us know if you try this.)
 
Making a liquid with water would seem to be a better way to taper utilizing these tablets or wafers. In fact, in Europe, patient instructions for the orally disintegrating tablets state

 

Quote

it may be dispersed in a full glass of water or other suitable beverage (orange juice, apple juice, milk or coffee) immediately before administration

 

Also see http://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/25020/spc
 
One of our members has tapered successfully by making a liquid with the orodispersible wafers, see http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/3743-tips-for-tapering-off-zyprexa-olanzapine/?p=163188
 
I would dispose of any homemade liquid left over from a dose -- do not save for another dose.

 

 

You could also visit the Intros of the members who have posted in the above topic and also do a search for zyprexa and olanzapine to find members who haven't posted there to see how they have managed to reduce.

[ChessieCat]

 

[arwilliams]

Using my basic knowledge of Chemistry I do not think you can dilute a suspended liquid because the particles are solid and therefore not really dissolved.  Essentially the weight I believe may prevent this.  

 

Wafers may work though if they truly dissolve.

[ChessieCat]

23 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

One of our members has tapered successfully by making a liquid with the orodispersible wafers, see http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/3743-tips-for-tapering-off-zyprexa-olanzapine/?p=163188

 

[Altostrata]

Oral syringes cost less than a dollar apiece. The topic in Tapering about using an oral syringe explains how to get them.

 

ar, please get into the habit of using search (site search or Google search) to find information on this site that will answer your questions. You're not a baby bird who needs to be fed.

[arwilliams]

So last time I came off of Zyprexa had 1 month delays in my insomnia starting.

 

This seems like a rather unusual amount of time for insomnia to start considering the half life of Zyprexa.

[Spideygsm]

1 hour ago, arwilliams said:

So last time I came off of Zyprexa had 1 month delays in my insomnia starting.

 

This seems like a rather unusual amount of time for insomnia to start considering the half life of Zyprexa.

Everybody’s gonna be different. My insomnia started day 2 of my taper, about 6 months later it got a little better, no it’s back. Don’t expect what you experience is gonna match somebody else’s timeline. Let’s not sugar coat it. It sucks!

 

On 6/2 you were on 2.5mg. Now you’re in 0.015mg. That’s not a taper, that’s CT. You’re also waiting your time trying to measure doses that small. A cheap scale isn’t even close to being that accurate. Even using a syringe to try and guess doses that small isn’t that accurate. There’s meniscus effects and uneven solution quality. 

[arwilliams]

@Spideygsm no .015mg of .111mg by weight.  No I am on .44mg not by weight.

[Altostrata]

6 hours ago, arwilliams said:

So last time I came off of Zyprexa had 1 month delays in my insomnia starting.

 

This seems like a rather unusual amount of time for insomnia to start considering the half life of Zyprexa.

 

You seem to be rather fixed in your theories of how this stuff works, ar. I believe we mentioned going on and off drugs makes your nervous system more sensitive as it becomes destabilized. It's not made of rubber. If you don't accept this, we might not be able to help you.

[frasier23]

On 6/11/2018 at 2:19 PM, arwilliams said:

So last time I came off of Zyprexa had 1 month delays in my insomnia starting.

 

This seems like a rather unusual amount of time for insomnia to start considering the half life of Zyprexa.

Same amount of time for me.

[arwilliams]

So I'm thinking about going oldboy in a couple months.  Anyone have any opinions about this?

 

Old Boy if you haven't seen the movie gets locked into a room for a long period of time literally years.

 

Once I get done to a low enough dose I am thinking of doing something similar for probably at least a month to see if my sleep comes back.

 

[Madeleine]

I think it's not a good idea to isolate yourself.   Trying to get some light exercise out doors is probably a better idea....

[Carmie]

Hi arwilliams,

 

 I agree with @Madeleine, it’s not a good idea to isolate yourself in a room. It’s too depressing, you need to get out in nature, that would be much better for you. 

 

All the best💚

[Songbird]

It depends on how extreme you go.  Taking things quietly at home can be good.  Completely isolating yourself and staying in one room sounds horrible and not very healthy.

[Spideygsm]

ARW:

 

I'm gonna give you a little critique. Since you started this thread you've come up with all kinds of different plans and theories about how to get off Zyprexa. It's gonna be tough no matter what you do and how you do it. Read Andy's story http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/12078-finally-off-zyprexa/. Read the entire thing. Also, go to the success stores Section.  The success stories are almost a mirror to my story.

 

For awhile you were tapering. What happened? Before you started taking Zyprexa you had terrible insomnia. I can tell you from 1st hand experience that whatever insomnia you had before Zyprexa is going to be minor to what you'll experience during your withdrawal phase. I was put on Ambien and Valium for sleep during withdrawal and NOTHING helped. What might of helped is if I had the time to do a proper taper. The insomnia that you had before taking Zyprexa isn't going to miraculously go away. It's still gonna be there unless you make serious lifestyle and develop healthy sleeping habits. A sleeping clinic can probably help you with that. I can't.

 

Getting off Zyprexa did not miraculously cure my manic episodes, manic psychosis, anxiety, depression, insomnia. I live with those. I've gotten myself into some trouble since getting off Zyprexa but I also got myself into trouble while on Zyprexa too. I still have insomnia and everything else that existing before I started taking the drug. My last dose of Zyprexa was about 17 weeks ago. I'm still having withdrawals. However, I feel more like a real person again. Zyprexa fogs your brain and thinking way more than you realize. I don't feel drug dopey anymore either. I don't think anybody can explain the difference you'll feel after you get that crap out of your system. Remember, whatever condition you had before taking Zyprexa is still going to be there. Deal with it. There's no miracle drug. Zyprexa is nothing but a slow killing bandaid that cures nothing.

 

I'm a strong believer in exercise and diet. Not dieting but putting healthy food into the body. When I did my rapid taper and withdrawal my Doctor told me to exercise. She said the biggest benefit is it speeds up the brains recovery because exercise stimulates the brain to naturally release endorphins. When I swim I'm completely at peace. No withdrawals, no terrible thinking, I lost weight, my blood work is all great, no more racing heartbeat, and my blood pressure is fantastic. After I'm done swimming I get 3-4 hours of mental freedom and feel good. I told my Doctor and she said to swim more.

 

I don't see where locking yourself into a room is going to do anything but make things worse. You'll end up dwelling on your misery which is only going to magnifying the intensity of what you're feeling. The best thing is to get out and do anything other than lay around or sit around and wait. You'll try and sleep all the time which is only going to make your sleep worse at night.

 

My advice is what success stories have said. Slow taper, exercise, proper diet. Cut anything such as caffein sodas, energy drinks, and coffee. They impede sleep and are addictive in their own right. When you get to 0.625mg, man up and quit taking that crap. There's no easy way to stop Zyprexa. Just deal with it

 

Good luck

 

[arwilliams]

@Spideygsm I was not originally prescribed the medication for sleep but is the only reason I keep taking it right now.

 

My sleep was perfect before Zyprexa.  Literally perfect.  Now even on Zyprexa I have issues.

[Spideygsm]

ARW:

 

You took the drug and stayed on the drug to maintain sleep. I was on it 15 years and up to 30mg/day for other issues. Never for sleep and Zyprexa didn't make me sleep. Opposite effect. I don't feel I have brain damage. I can feel a very slow recovery. Insomnia is just part of getting off this ****. I'm not trying to put you down. I know everybody is different. When I got down to 2.5mg all hell broke loose. Then again at about 4 weeks off the drug. My viewpoint is a little different than SA's. If I had to do it again, after I got to 1.25mg, I'd stop taking the drug. Nearly impossible to actually taper at any consistent % that small. Even getting injections or measuring a liquid. There's a meniscus effect and the dose isn't exact.

 

It's gonna take month's or even years for your brain to recover. Your body will ultimately get enough sleep to survive. I haven't read any stories of people dying from sleep deprivation coming off Zyprexa. I know I felt like I was gonna shut down but somehow I survived. At some point I think you need to man up and get this done. This goes against SA but it's true. If Zyprexa is the cause of you not going to college, not sleeping without it, and weight gain, why are you still taking this ****?. The other very negative side effects will eventually catch up to you like they did to me. Getting off Zyprexa was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. I'm so glad that's behind me. I think you'll look back as time passes and be glad you quit taking Zyprexa too. It's not gonna happen though unless YOU do it. No easy way out.

[frasier23]