IanM: introduction

[IanM]

15 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

the mission of this site is to reduce drugs, not increase them.

 

And yet I seem to recall reading in several places on this web site that someone should consider re-instating at a higher dose to stabilize. You have an entire thread on the subject.

 

If you could speak to my pdoc, you would know for certain I do not seek out drugs...in fact, the reverse is true, much to his consternation. But I need to stay alive for my family's sake.

 

[Altostrata]

Reinstatement is for people who are experiencing withdrawal, not drug overuse and drug-drug interactions.

 

Go ahead, interpret the rules to suit your inclination. No, we will not support you in increasing Klonopin. Feel free to continue to medicate yourself ad hoc.

[Spideygsm]

IanM

 

Read Andy’s Story here: 

 

Read my story here: 

 

 

These are just 2 of many. There’s ones on Klonipin also. I strongly urge you to read them

 

Don't get mad at Altostrata. She’s trying to make you realize you’ve gotten yourself into a pickle. There is NO EASY way out. We’ve all been there. 

[ChessieCat]

I had dental issues for several months earlier this year.  Even though I am tapering only 1 drug following SA's protocol and I experiencing only mild withdrawal symptoms I found that having low grade toothache for months and sometimes full blown toothache during that time made me feel suicidal.

 

Where are you at with your dental treatment?  When do you hope to have the dental issues resolved?

[IanM]

5 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

Where are you at with your dental treatment?  When do you hope to have the dental issues resolved?

Hi ChessieCat. If all goes to plan, my dental issues will be resolved in a month or so. But it all depends on whether or not I can make it to appointments.

[IanM]

23 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Reinstatement is for people who are experiencing withdrawal, not drug overuse and drug-drug interactions.

 

Go ahead, interpret the rules to suit your inclination. No, we will not support you in increasing Klonopin. Feel free to continue to medicate yourself ad hoc.

Ok.

 

You mentioned in another post that I need to separate my drug dose times so that I'm not taking so many at once. Do you have a suggestion for how I might go about doing this?

 

Thank you.

[ChessieCat]

Please refer back to this post:

 

 

[Altostrata]

Ian, are you taking an increased amount of daily benzodiazepine? If so, no go. It's hard enough to unravel the dumb cocktail you're on.

[IanM]

18 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Ian, are you taking an increased amount of daily benzodiazepine? If so, no go. It's hard enough to unravel the dumb cocktail you're on.

I am back to 0.0625mg of klonopin, twice a day.

[IanM]

35 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Ian, are you taking an increased amount of daily benzodiazepine? If so, no go. It's hard enough to unravel the dumb cocktail you're on.

One other thing: on the day of my dentist visit, i chose to move my 8am olanzapine dose from 8am to 12pm, as noted in my journal entry for that day (oct 24th), and I intend to keep it there from here on out so as to keep it separated from my other drugs. Future journal entries will reflect this.

 

(I am doing this in a desperate attempt to have a survivable day like the one I had on my dentist appointment day).

Edited October 27, 2018 by IanM
Added info

[ChessieCat]

2 hours ago, IanM said:

If all goes to plan, my dental issues will be resolved in a month or so. But it all depends on whether or not I can make it to appointments.

 

My suggestion would be to make every effort to get there for the appointments.  I understand that it may be difficult, but the dental problems (infection/s and pain) may be contributing to your symptoms.  If you have 2 or 3 root canal treatments needed, you could ask the dentist if it is possible to start them both/all so that you aren't in pain and/or the infection is treated.

[IanM]

22 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

 

My suggestion would be to make every effort to get there for the appointments.  I understand that it may be difficult, but the dental problems (infection/s and pain) may be contributing to your symptoms.  If you have 2 or 3 root canal treatments needed, you could ask the dentist if it is possible to start them both/all so that you aren't in pain and/or the infection is treated.

Thanks, CC. No root canals needed: one broken tooth needs a crown (temporary done  already as of two days ago), another cracked tooth needs a crown (temporary will be done in two weeks, along with finalizing existing temporary), and one tooth with an old filling that needs replacement. My symptoms were with me long before I had any tooth trouble, so unrelated.

Thanks.

P.S. I normally love going to the dentist...anything where someone is working on me feels great. And today's dental techniques make getting work done virtually painless.

[ChessieCat]

18 minutes ago, IanM said:

No root canals needed

 

That's good to hear.

[Shep]

7 hours ago, IanM said:

No root canals needed: one broken tooth needs a crown (temporary done  already as of two days ago), another cracked tooth needs a crown (temporary will be done in two weeks, along with finalizing existing temporary), and one tooth with an old filling that needs replacement.

 

I'm so glad you don't need root canals.

 

But the broken teeth are concerning - are you grinding your teeth at night? This is a huge problem for many people going through withdrawal. You might want to talk to your dentist about getting a night guard to wear at night while you sleep. It will protect your teeth from withdrawal-induced bruxism that can result in broken teeth. 

[Altostrata]

We need your daily notes showing when you take your drugs, their dosages, and any symptoms in between. Use a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom, drug and dosage) on the right.

 

No more excuses.

 

[IanM]

Daily journal for October 26, 2018

 

8 a.m. - 0.0625mg Klonopin, 100mg gabapentin.

9 a.m. - breakfast.

9:30 a.m. - Brain dysfunction bad, 7/10. Anger.

12:00 p.m. - 2.5mg Olanzapine.

2:00 p.m. - Brain dysfunction worsening, 8.5/10.

5:00 p.m. - 9.375mg lamotrigine, 100mg gabapentin.

6:00 p.m. - dinner.

Brain dysfunction severe. 9.5/10. All energy going into not commiting suicide.

8:00 p.m. - 0.0625mg Klonopin.

10:00 p.m. - in bed, brain dysfunction 9/10.

11.00 p.m. - asleep.

2:15 a.m. - bolt awake with anxiety and adrenal rush, brain dysfunction 8/10. Practice Prana Breathing for an hour, drift in and out of sleep until 5:00 a.m., anxiety, depression, brain dysfunction 8/10.

 

[IanM]

6 hours ago, Shep said:

But the broken teeth are concerning - are you grinding your teeth at night? 

I may be grinding my teeth at night, but the broken and cracked tooth were both caused by careless cherry eating. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to sleep with a mouth guard in, even if I were healthy.

[Altostrata]

On 10/23/2018 at 10:16 AM, IanM said:

Daily journal for Oct. 22, 2018:

 

8am - 2.5mg olanzapine, 100mg gabapentin, 0.0625mg klonopin. Brain dysfunction, DP/DR, bleak.

9:30am - breakfast.

- whole morning spent on the couch or in bed.

- brain dysfunction continues. Afraid of how my thought processes are working.

1pm - light lunch.

1:30pm - tooth ache, took one tylenol.

- whole afternoon spent on couch, surviving brain dysfunction.

2:40pm - brain dysfunction begins to get really bad. Deep, dark blackness. Very frightening.

- brain dysfunction waxes and wanes, but mostly so awful it's unbearable. Holed up in bedroom just barely surviving.

~4:30pm - brain dysfunction lifts enough to allow me to return to couch.

5pm - 9.375mg lamotrigine, 100mg gabapentin.

6pm - 0.0625mg klonopin. Working towards 8pm.

6:15pm - dinner.

- evening spent on couch, wife watching netflix, I can't watch due to fear of it, so put on headphones and watch british comedy. Brain dysfunction waxes and wanes, but does not become disasterous.

9:30pm - in bed, watch british comedy.

1am - asleep.

5:30am - awake to anxiety/cortisol rush. Stays with me until 7am, lessens when I move to couch. Go back to bed at 9am, close my eyes, and within 10 minutes the whole-body anxiety returns. I stew in it for an hour...it cripples me. Get back up and move to couch.

 

On 10/24/2018 at 3:47 PM, IanM said:

I would like to report on my 10 a.m. dentist appointment this morning, in particular about what I did with my drugs in an effort to survive it. I did not want my brain to go into serious dysfunction while lying in the chair, so I decided to gamble and change up my drugs. Here's what I did:

 

My usual 8 a.m. drug regimen is:

2.5mg olanzapine

100mg gabapentin

0.0625mg klonopin

 

I semi-reasoned that it is perhaps the olanzapine causing me distress, and I also knew I would need more Klonopin to even be able to go outside, so I took the following:

 

NO olanazapine

100mg gabapentin

0.0625mg + 0.25mg Klonopin.

 

I was anxious in the lead-up to the appointment, but I got there OK and was (relatively) fine for the roughly two hour session. 

 

After I got home, I took 1/2 of my usual dose of olanzapine at 12:30 p.m. It is currently 3:45 p.m. here, and while I still feel very weird, restless and uncertain with my mind, I haven't yet dropped into the indescribable abyss. I intend to take the other half of olanzapine at 5 p.m.. I will go back on my usual dosing schedule tomorrow.

 

So I now have to wonder if it's the extra 0.25mg of Klonopin that is the difference between survivable and nearly unsurvivable brain function?

 

Sure would have been nice to have actual symptom notes from 10/24 and 10/25, when you were messing around with your drugs.

 

19 minutes ago, IanM said:

Daily journal for October 26, 2018

 

8 a.m. - 0.0625mg Klonopin, 100mg gabapentin.

9 a.m. - breakfast.

9:30 a.m. - Brain dysfunction bad, 7/10. Anger.

12:00 p.m. - 2.5mg Olanzapine.

2:00 p.m. - Brain dysfunction worsening, 8.5/10.

5:00 p.m. - 9.375mg lamotrigine, 100mg gabapentin.

6:00 p.m. - dinner.

Brain dysfunction severe. 9.5/10. All energy going into not commiting suicide.

8:00 p.m. - 0.0625mg Klonopin.

10:00 p.m. - in bed, brain dysfunction 9/10.

11.00 p.m. - asleep.

2:15 a.m. - bolt awake with anxiety and adrenal rush, brain dysfunction 8/10. Practice Prana Breathing for an hour, drift in and out of sleep until 5:00 a.m., anxiety, depression, brain dysfunction 8/10.

 

 

It's looking pretty likely to me that the "brain dysfunction" is an adverse effect of olanzapine. (The other drugs certainly don't help.)

 

Now that you've moved the olanzapine, we need to have daily symptom notes for several days, to see if this truly is a pattern. If it is, I would suggest reducing the olanzapine by 0.5mg (as you only increased it to 2.5mg on October 18). See Tips for tapering off olanzapine (Zyprexa)

 

Do not arbitrarily reduce the olanzapine, do not reduce it by more than 0.5mg, and do not reduce it before we verify the symptom pattern.

[IanM]

27 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Sure would have been nice to have actual symptom notes from 10/24 and 10/25, when you were messing around with your drugs.

 

Hi Alto,

 

Here's the post I did for the 24th:

 

 

The 25th was a seriously bad day, and I don't have solid journal info, but I can say it was much like my entry for the 26th, with the exception being that I slept 8 hours, but still woke up with severe anxiety, adrenal rush, and brain dysfunction at about 8.5/10. The entire day I would rate at 9.5/10.

[Spideygsm]

Altostrata,

 

When I WAS on Olanzapine my Doctor had me take it once a day at bedtime. I understand different Doctors will poison a patient different ways. 

 

That said, if I did anything with my Olanzapin dose it messed me up really bad. It has such a long half-life that it’s not meant to be used like IanM is doing (take a little more here at some time to get by). The same is true for Klonipin.

 

I know you know all this. It’s meant for IanM to understand. These drugs are VERY addictive. Even at minut doses. I was on every drug IanM was on at the same time in addition to other drugs. The withdrawls from Benzodiazepines and Olanzapin are so similar I would have no idea how to determine what’s going on. If I were to guess it’s both based on dose changes with both. 

 

[Altostrata]

On 10/25/2018 at 9:23 AM, IanM said:

.

Daily journal, Wednesday, 24 October

 

3:30am woke up, generalized anxiety,, 6 on a scale of 1-10 (1 = low, 10 = severe). Brain dysfunction 5/10.

8am held on olanzapine, gabapentin 100 mg, klonopin 0.0625 mg + 0.25 mg (took extra for denist).

10am-12pm - dentist, anxiety 0/10, brain dysfunction 4/10.

12:30pm - 1.25mg olanzapine, half of skipped morning dose.

1pm - lunch.

3:30pm - teeth aching. Took one tylenol.

3:45pm - feel very weird, restless, and uncertain with my mind,  but brain dysfunction at about 6/10, versus 9/10 previous days.

5:00pm  - 1.25mg olanzapine, second half of my usual dose. 100mg gabapentin. 9.375mg lamotriine. 

6pm - dinner.

8pm - 0.0625mg klonopin.

Evening anxiety 0/10, brain dysfunction 6/10. Markedly better than last night.

9:30pm - in bed, asleep by 11pm. Anxiety in bed 2/10, probably due to realization that I have to face another day tomorrow.

 

Thanks, Ian. Your notes from October 26 would also have been important, as the effects of the drugs carry over from one day to another.

 

As this is one day's notes when you made changes in TWO drugs, we can't draw any conclusions from it. Do not change more than one drug at a time.

 

We still need daily notes to track the effect of moving olanzapine.

[IanM]

15 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Your notes from October 26 would also have been important

 

I assume you are referring to missing notes for the 25th, not the 26th? I will endeavour to piece together something from the scant notes I kept...it was a very bad day.

[IanM]

Daily journal for Oct. 25th, 2018.

 

(I had more info than I recall writing down)

 

8am - 0.125mg klonopin (this was the increase I've already been chastized for), 100mg gabapentin. Deferring olanzapine until noon.

- brain dysfunction 6/10.

8:30am - mild headache, took one tylenol.

11:30am - feel restless, like I'm gonna jump out of my skin. I would call it moderate akathesia, I think.

12pm - 2.5mg olanzapine.

12:30pm - brain dysfunction at 7/10.

1:30pm - 450mg magnesium citrate, 1200mg fish oil.

2pm - anxiety coming on, 3/10. Lasted for about an hour. Brain dysfunction still at about 7/10.

3pm - sharp pain in temples.

5pm - 100mg gabapentin, 9.375mg lamotrigine, 0.0625mg klonopin (accidentally took at 5 instead of 8...force of habit).

6pm - anxiety at 6/10, brain dysfunction at 8/10 after reading some SA posts. Teeth aching, took one ibuprofen.

10pm - in bed. Asleep by 11pm.

6:30am - slept 7.5 hours, but...woke with massive adrenal rush 8/10 (akathesia?), severe burning in arms and shoulders 9/10.

Stayed in bed, paralyzed by symptoms, until about 9am.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by IanM
Added missing sleep info

[IanM]

1 hour ago, Spideygsm said:

Altostrata,

 

When I WAS on Olanzapine my Doctor had me take it once a day at bedtime. I understand different Doctors will poison a patient different ways. 

 

That said, if I did anything with my Olanzapin dose it messed me up really bad. It has such a long half-life that it’s not meant to be used like IanM is doing (take a little more here at some time to get by). The same is true for Klonipin.

 

I know you know all this. It’s meant for IanM to understand. These drugs are VERY addictive. Even at minut doses. I was on every drug IanM was on at the same time in addition to other drugs. The withdrawls from Benzodiazepines and Olanzapin are so similar I would have no idea how to determine what’s going on. If I were to guess it’s both based on dose changes with both. 

 

 

I still believe the big issue right now is klonopin withdrawal, and that I have messed with its dosing so much I have made a mess of my brain chemistry. My day at the dentist (and corresponding increase in klonopin) makes me fairly certain of this.

[Altostrata]

1 minute ago, IanM said:

 

I still believe the big issue right now is klonopin withdrawal, and that I have messed with its dosing so much I have made a mess of my brain chemistry. My day at the dentist (and corresponding increase in klonopin) makes me fairly certain of this.

 

Really? So what do you think your plan should be from this point on??

[IanM]

On 10/21/2018 at 10:13 AM, Altostrata said:

 

From your earlier posts, it looks like your day-to-day drug schedule has been somewhat inconsistent, particularly when it comes to the benzo. Your use of Klonopin could be the key to your condition. Those daily notes will be very important in seeing whether your symptoms are caused by Klonopin.

 

Alto,

This is my belief, too, as I mentioned in previous post.

 

Or... it's a combination of klonopin and olanzapine, or a combination of lamotrigine and olanzapine (both calcium channel blockers, perhaps combining to wreak havoc), or gabapentin mixing with klonopin to wreak havoc on my GABA system. Or??

 

All I know is that something quite unholy is happening in my mind, and I need to sort it out quickly. I would be happy to do rapid tapers of lamotrigine and gabapentin, thus eliminating them as players in the mess that is my brain. I know you wouldn't agree to this, though.

[Altostrata]

I truly do not want to spend my time reading your theories about your "brain dysfunction" again, Ian. I've explained the picture many times to you.

 

Do not post anything like this again:

 

23 minutes ago, IanM said:

 

I still believe the big issue right now is klonopin withdrawal, and that I have messed with its dosing so much I have made a mess of my brain chemistry. My day at the dentist (and corresponding increase in klonopin) makes me fairly certain of this.

 

You seem to have a fixed belief you need more benzo. If that's the case, you can leave this site now.

[IanM]

I honestly and truly don't understand why I am being treated so harshly. Nevertheless, as long as I am not banned, I will continue to post daily journals, and will refrain from making any other comments.

[IanM]

@Altostrata It has been brought to my attention (by my sister) where I've been going wrong with my posts, and without going into detail, I would like to sincerely apologize for being a pain in the butt. 

 

I will stop posting for a little while to avoid wasting more of your time, and also to reaccess why it is I want to be here.

 

Again, very sorry.

Edited October 28, 2018 by IanM
Accidentally hit 'post' before finishing text

[ChessieCat]

Please read MISSION OF SURVIVINGANTIDEPRESSANTS.ORG to help you to understand what Surviving Antidepressants is about:

 

 

[IanM]

20 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Please read MISSION OF SURVIVINGANTIDEPRESSANTS.ORG to help you to understand what Surviving Antidepressants is about:

 

 

 

Thank you, ChessieCat. I read the thread, and the mission statement is exactly as I believed it to be. My problem is my personality disorder; I have a strong need to be heard, and for my 'opinions' to considered, but I now know that opinions mean nothing; cold hard data is what's needed, in the form of journal entries, and that is the piece I was being blind to. I am also afraid to die by my own hand, and was feeling that if I increased a dose of a drug to what I believe is a 'reinstatement' dose, I could perhaps prevent this eventuality. I still can't make not doing this right in my head...survival is paramount.

 

I am in tears as I write this, as I'm so afraid for my future. I have been a soldier for almost two years now, but I am almost out of hope, and I am afraid of that feeling.

 

[ChessieCat]

17 minutes ago, IanM said:

cold hard data is what's needed, in the form of journal entries, and that is the piece I was being blind to.

 

I suggest that you continue to keep daily notes on paper.

 

It could very well be that it is the drugs which are making you feel worse.  Please watch this:  Medication Spell Binding

[ChessieCat]

You might find this helpful:  dealing-with-emotional-spirals

 

[IanM]

1 hour ago, ChessieCat said:

 

I suggest that you continue to keep daily notes on paper.

 

It could very well be that it is the drugs which are making you feel worse.  Please watch this:  Medication Spell Binding

 

Thanks for the video link, CC, but I have to say that none of the information in the video applies to me. I am under no illusion that these drugs are helping me, and I am definitely not happy to be taking them. Quite the contrary; they have deeply injured me, and I abhore the fact that I got myself into this life-threatening predicament.

 

If I reinstate at a slightly higher dose of benzo, it will be because, as I've said, I need to stay alive. I can taper it from the higher dose when the time comes.

 

Something that really troubles me is that member 'Andy' reinstated his Olanzapine dose from 2.5mg to 5mg during his withdrawal in an effort to eliminate his insomnia, and nobody said a single word to him. In fact, IIRC, he was offered sympathy. And he was certainly not told he should leave the site. 

 

I'm not looking for sympathy, by any means, but I would at least like to be given the same leeway when it comes to surviving this ordeal. 

[ChessieCat]

2 hours ago, IanM said:

Something that really troubles me is that member 'Andy' reinstated his Olanzapine dose from 2.5mg to 5mg during his withdrawal in an effort to eliminate his insomnia, and nobody said a single word to him. In fact, IIRC, he was offered sympathy. And he was certainly not told he should leave the site. 

 

Each member's situation is different and each member 's individual situation is assessed and is the very reason why the daily symptoms, drug, dose diary is asked for.  It's not to inconvenience you or make things more difficult.  It's because helping members get off drugs is taken very seriously and suggestions are being made which concern your health and well being and the information is needed so that suggestions can be made.

 

Altostrata, who is the owner of this website, has done much research and is very knowledgeable about psychiatric drugs and how to taper them.  Because of the research and the information that is provided, many members have been able to reduce their drug burden.

 

The mods are also tapering or have completed tapers, some of them from drug cocktails (including benzos) and understand the difficult situation you are in.

 

Edited October 28, 2018 by ChessieCat

[Shep]

4 hours ago, IanM said:

If I reinstate at a slightly higher dose of benzo, it will be because, as I've said, I need to stay alive. I can taper it from the higher dose when the time comes.

 

Something that really troubles me is that member 'Andy' reinstated his Olanzapine dose from 2.5mg to 5mg during his withdrawal in an effort to eliminate his insomnia, and nobody said a single word to him. In fact, IIRC, he was offered sympathy. And he was certainly not told he should leave the site. 

 

As Chessie wrote, each member's situation is different.  As a reminder - a benzo and an antipsychotic are two different drugs with two different sets of protocols for updosing and reinstating. 

 

On 10/21/2018 at 5:13 PM, Shep said:

Yes, I think better spacing may help. Also, depending on when the reductions were made from .125 mg Klonopin taken twice a day to .0625 mg taken twice a day, a small updose may help and eliminate the need for so many periodic rescue doses. 

 

But an updose would only be appropriate if the reductions were made within the past month. This is why it's important to know the dates for these decreases, as much as you're able to provide. 

 

On 10/21/2018 at 5:36 PM, IanM said:

I'm not sure of dates, but I'm pretty sure i reduced the klonopin at the beginning of June,

 

 

As I wrote in this earlier post, a benzo updose is best done within a month of reducing it. It's almost November now, so it's been nearly 5 months since your decrease, so an updose would be very risky. 

 

Updosing and reinstating benzos are much different than with antipsychotics and antidepressants. 

 

I wish there was an easier answer, but I would be very hesitant to risk an updose at this point. 

 

Dental work is difficult, but it is temporary. I would concentrate on getting through the dental work, give yourself plenty of credit for getting through it, and then hold and try to get some stability.