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brassmonkey

Are We There Yet? How Long is Withdrawal Going to Take?

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Snorky
44 minutes ago, mstimc said:

Speaking from experience, I was in a "wave" of varying intensity from late 2007 till early 2009 and never thought it would lift.  I went from one catastrophic thought to another with almost no end.  When it did begin to lift, it did so gradually.  In 2008, in the middle of the darkest time, I found a psychologist who understood withdrawal and its effects, as well as practiced CBT and EMDR.  It took time and work but the wave did break.

Hi M

 

Thanks for your ongoing interest and support. I meant to say that “I’d willingly swap the psychological for the physical”, but think you got that.  I’m so confused now, I’m not sure if I’m describing depression sensations, anhedonia, mental anguish or a combination of all three? 

 

I’d also put something in the symptoms section (waves and windows sub category) on “ruminating”.

 

Thanks again 

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mstimc
8 minutes ago, Snorky said:

Hi M

 

I’m so confused now, I’m not sure if I’m describing depression sensations, anhedonia, mental anguish or a combination of all three? 

 

I’d also put something in the symptoms section (waves and windows sub category) on “ruminating”.

 

Thanks again 

 

Yes, ruminating can be the worst.  When I first started to see windows, I'd start worrying about how long they'd last, if they would stop, etc.  At one point, I was searching for new things to fixate on: physical ailments, mistakes I made at work, family issues, etc.  Letting go of the fear is one of the hardest things about overcoming withdrawal and anxiety. 

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Snorky
22 minutes ago, mstimc said:

 

Yes, ruminating can be the worst.  When I first started to see windows, I'd start worrying about how long they'd last, if they would stop, etc.  At one point, I was searching for new things to fixate on: physical ailments, mistakes I made at work, family issues, etc.  Letting go of the fear is one of the hardest things about overcoming withdrawal and anxiety. 

Thanks. My post was about differentiating between physical and mental, depression and anxiety symptoms, and whether that was counterproductive.

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brassmonkey

Trying to differentiate between symptoms, their cause and effect is a form of Emotional Spiral Thinking and will lead to an increase in symptoms.  Paying undue attention to a situation gives it power over you and increases its importance out or proportion. The majority of ADWD symptoms are due to the affects of the drug on the body and nervous system, and as long as the drug is present in any amount they will continue to happen to some degree and when ever they feel like it. This is why we stress the use of AAF and CBT.

 

Over analyzing and over thinking symptoms is a very good way to derail ones recovery/healing.  Yes, the symptoms need to be acknowledged and paid attention too, because they do effect how one is able to deal with life. But, symptoms, their why and wherefore, are not the be all, end all of WD.  Rather they are something that has to be put up with and worked around, distracted from and put in their place so one can get on with the task of putting their life back together.  In an acute wave the symptoms will take priority because there are more of them to deal with and that dealing will take more time than usual.  But once the acute phase has passed it is best to breath a sigh of relief and say "that's over, and I made it through, now to get on with it".  When it happens again, then it' s a matter of "been there, done that, survived and moved on".

 

There is a check list of several hundred symptoms associated with ADWD and we are adding to it all the time.  To try and correlate what you were feeling five minutes ago and and what you are feeling now is pretty much pointless.  It will all change in another five minutes and you have very little control over it, but you do have control over how you react to it. It is better to spent the limited energy available concentrating on the positive and enjoying the moment then to be dragged down in a spiral of confusion and despair.  

 

Yes, even in the midst of an acute wave, there are positive and beautiful things happening to and all around you, but a person has to make the decision and put in the effort to see, acknowledge and appreciate them.

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Snorky
3 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

Trying to differentiate between symptoms, their cause and effect is a form of Emotional Spiral Thinking and will lead to an increase in symptoms.  Paying undue attention to a situation gives it power over you and increases its importance out or proportion. The majority of ADWD symptoms are due to the affects of the drug on the body and nervous system, and as long as the drug is present in any amount they will continue to happen to some degree and when ever they feel like it. This is why we stress the use of AAF and CBT.

 

Over analyzing and over thinking symptoms is a very good way to derail ones recovery/healing.  Yes, the symptoms need to be acknowledged and paid attention too, because they do effect how one is able to deal with life. But, symptoms, their why and wherefore, are not the be all, end all of WD.  Rather they are something that has to be put up with and worked around, distracted from and put in their place so one can get on with the task of putting their life back together.  In an acute wave the symptoms will take priority because there are more of them to deal with and that dealing will take more time than usual.  But once the acute phase has passed it is best to breath a sigh of relief and say "that's over, and I made it through, now to get on with it".  When it happens again, then it' s a matter of "been there, done that, survived and moved on".

 

There is a check list of several hundred symptoms associated with ADWD and we are adding to it all the time.  To try and correlate what you were feeling five minutes ago and and what you are feeling now is pretty much pointless.  It will all change in another five minutes and you have very little control over it, but you do have control over how you react to it. It is better to spent the limited energy available concentrating on the positive and enjoying the moment then to be dragged down in a spiral of confusion and despair.  

 

Yes, even in the midst of an acute wave, there are positive and beautiful things happening to and all around you, but a person has to make the decision and put in the effort to see, acknowledge and appreciate them.

Thank you again. Will try to put this philosophy into practice.

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Onmyway
On 1/3/2020 at 8:50 PM, brassmonkey said:

Trying to differentiate between symptoms, their cause and effect is a form of Emotional Spiral Thinking and will lead to an increase in symptoms.  Paying undue attention to a situation gives it power over you and increases its importance out or proportion. The majority of ADWD symptoms are due to the affects of the drug on the body and nervous system, and as long as the drug is present in any amount they will continue to happen to some degree and when ever they feel like it. This is why we stress the use of AAF and CBT.

 

Over analyzing and over thinking symptoms is a very good way to derail ones recovery/healing.  Yes, the symptoms need to be acknowledged and paid attention too, because they do effect how one is able to deal with life. But, symptoms, their why and wherefore, are not the be all, end all of WD.  Rather they are something that has to be put up with and worked around, distracted from and put in their place so one can get on with the task of putting their life back together.  In an acute wave the symptoms will take priority because there are more of them to deal with and that dealing will take more time than usual.  But once the acute phase has passed it is best to breath a sigh of relief and say "that's over, and I made it through, now to get on with it".  When it happens again, then it' s a matter of "been there, done that, survived and moved on".

 

There is a check list of several hundred symptoms associated with ADWD and we are adding to it all the time.  To try and correlate what you were feeling five minutes ago and and what you are feeling now is pretty much pointless.  It will all change in another five minutes and you have very little control over it, but you do have control over how you react to it. It is better to spent the limited energy available concentrating on the positive and enjoying the moment then to be dragged down in a spiral of confusion and despair.  

 

Yes, even in the midst of an acute wave, there are positive and beautiful things happening to and all around you, but a person has to make the decision and put in the effort to see, acknowledge and appreciate them.

Thank you BM for this really well written piece. It in hard to put psychological symptoms aside and see them just as simple brain blips as by definition they control our moods but it is perhaps the most important self care needed in this process. 

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Snorky

Hi BM

 

Hope you don’t mind, but sent you pm. Gist is in the slough of despond having re-read your piece on CT😡

 

Thank you 

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cathnz
On 5/22/2018 at 7:08 AM, brassmonkey said:

TACHYPHYLAXIS OR AS IT’S LOVINGLY KNOWN “POOPOUT

 (7)

 

Although acute WD and Poopout are related they are not the same thing.  Acute WD is a severe case of WD Symptoms while Poopout is the body tolerating the effects of the drug, trying to work around them, and causing WD symptoms by doing so.  The harder the body rejects the medication the more severe the symptoms. 

 

It all stems from the body being a self-correcting homeostatic organism. It's designed to work with a specific balance of neurotransmitters and will do anything in its power to maintain that balance.  Taking an AD causes some the receptors for a specific neurotransmitter to stop working which floods the body with that NT and supposedly makes us feel better because of the excess.  After a while the body finds ways around this and works to regain homeostasis.  When the struggle for control that ensues becomes acute it is known as Tachyphylaxis, or Poopout.  In order to "cure" it, there must be a clear winner, leaving two options. Updose or taper.  

 

Once Poopout has set in it is going to continue to grow worse, no matter what. To Updose would just be buying a little time. By Updosing the drug is declared the winner, the symptoms subside somewhat, and you move on, but the body continues to fight.  This could last from a few months to a year or so, but in the end, things will go down hill again and leave a person in the same or worse situation and at a higher dosage, which would require a longer taper. To hold during poopout would only prolong the struggle and might make things worse as the body continues its fight for control.

 

When it comes to Poopout the only way out it down.  If a person tapers, the body is declared the winner, repair work is started on the body and the symptoms subside.  BUT, it takes a long time to undo the physical changes the drug has made, and the presence of the drug is required to maintain those changes while the changes are being repaired. Thereby necessitating a long slow taper.

 

Tapering out of Poopout is a very frustrating process because there are no visible results for quite a long time.  There is not a lot of information available on time frames because Poopout is not a well-documented phenomenon.  Many people don’t realize that they are involved let alone how to treat it. From the information I have seen it generally takes eighteen months to two years before stabilization starts to appear. It then takes another eighteen months before improvements start to be readily apparent. Once improvements have started to appear they will increase in fits and starts and must be monitored by referring to ones WDnormal baseline.

 

 Tachyphylaxis in ADs is quite similar to the concept of “Tolerance Withdrawal” associated with Benzos.  Because of the nature in the actions of the two drugs they present in slightly different manners, but the mechanism is still the same. In cases where a person is taking both drugs the situation is complicated by effects of one drug masking the symptoms of the other.  This makes detecting true Tachyphylaxis very difficult. 

 

There is also the matter of Tachyphylaxis being confused with more common symptoms such as burn out.

 

I have suffered 'poop out' twice. The first time, I was switched from Lexapro to Paroxetine and for 7 years was well. The second time, I was switched from Paroxetine to Mirtazapine (no taper, direct switch), and since then all hell broke loose. My body and mind is shot to peices. Given that I'll be not only in 'poopout' from Paroxetine, but then virtually cold turkey when they stopped it suddenly (to switch to Mirtazapine) I'm so confused how my body is going to return to homeostasis given that not only did I have poop out, then WD, but now my system has still got the new med (Mirtazapine) as well. I can't even fathom tapering the Mirtazapine as I'm in such dissaray, but how will I achieve homeostatis while still on it. Because I guess it's only a matter of time before that poops out on me too! So I have to go though potentially years of trying to stabilise from paroxetine, only to turn around and do it for Mirtazapine! The thought of this completely and utterly terrifies me. This could be a lifetime?!?! 

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mstimc
8 hours ago, cathnz said:

I have suffered 'poop out' twice. The first time, I was switched from Lexapro to Paroxetine and for 7 years was well. The second time, I was switched from Paroxetine to Mirtazapine (no taper, direct switch), and since then all hell broke loose. My body and mind is shot to peices. Given that I'll be not only in 'poopout' from Paroxetine, but then virtually cold turkey when they stopped it suddenly (to switch to Mirtazapine) I'm so confused how my body is going to return to homeostasis given that not only did I have poop out, then WD, but now my system has still got the new med (Mirtazapine) as well. I can't even fathom tapering the Mirtazapine as I'm in such dissaray, but how will I achieve homeostatis while still on it. Because I guess it's only a matter of time before that poops out on me too! So I have to go though potentially years of trying to stabilise from paroxetine, only to turn around and do it for Mirtazapine! The thought of this completely and utterly terrifies me. This could be a lifetime?!?! 

 

Hi Cath

 

I was on Paxil for almost 10 years and experienced poop-out without even knowing what it was.  Although it will take time, it won't take a lifetime.  For me, it seemed like I was making no progress for a very long time and when I did, it was a gradual improvement.  Besides dealing with WD and poop-out, I also had to work with my therapist on my root anxiety and OCD issues.  I had to accept I have a chronic condition just like diabetes; it can be managed but not necessarily cured.  Sounds like you'd be best off for now to stabilize on Mitrazapine for a while until you're mentally, physically and emotionally ready to taper.

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cathnz
6 hours ago, mstimc said:

 

Hi Cath

 

I was on Paxil for almost 10 years and experienced poop-out without even knowing what it was.  Although it will take time, it won't take a lifetime.  For me, it seemed like I was making no progress for a very long time and when I did, it was a gradual improvement.  Besides dealing with WD and poop-out, I also had to work with my therapist on my root anxiety and OCD issues.  I had to accept I have a chronic condition just like diabetes; it can be managed but not necessarily cured.  Sounds like you'd be best off for now to stabilize on Mitrazapine for a while until you're mentally, physically and emotionally ready to taper.

Thank you 🙏 I just hate knowing that if I survive getting through this I've got to do it all again with The Mirtazapine 😭

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mstimc
2 minutes ago, cathnz said:

Thank you 🙏 I just hate knowing that if I survive getting through this I've got to do it all again with The Mirtazapine 😭

 

Yeah,  that sucks.  But many of us have gone through relapses and other difficulties.  At least you found a place where we can all share our experiences and gain and give support.  I heavily depended on the members Paxilprogress when I was doing my taper--all three tries! 

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cathnz
14 minutes ago, mstimc said:

 

Yeah,  that sucks.  But many of us have gone through relapses and other difficulties.  At least you found a place where we can all share our experiences and gain and give support.  I heavily depended on the members Paxilprogress when I was doing my taper--all three tries! 

 

I find this site so catch 22...it is so helpful and gives good advice, but parts of it also feed my fear and I get stuck in  the fear loop which makes everything worse. For example I don't usually have sleep problems, but after being on her last night, I had a night filled with terror 😔 I need the help that's on here, but how to get that without sharing myself I don't know!? 

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mstimc
Just now, cathnz said:

 

I find this site so catch 22...it is so helpful and gives good advice, but parts of it also feed my fear and I get stuck in  the fear loop which makes everything worse. For example I don't usually have sleep problems, but after being on her last night, I had a night filled with terror 😔 I need the help that's on here, but how to get that without sharing myself I don't know!? 

 

I had the same problem.  I reached a point during recovery after tapering that being on the PP site was somewhat counter-productive.  It reminded me I have anxiety and OCD at a time I was trying to keep them in the background.  I became a lot more selective about logging on and reading some posts.  But I also challenged myself to resist the temptation to apply everything I read to myself.  That also went to reading about recovery stories when I was still struggling.  There was a certain amount of jealousy of people who seemed to be recovering faster than me.  I finally had to accept it wasn't a contest and I'd recover at my own pace on on my own terms. 

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Sleepan

It is better to let veterans here answering those who are struggling and pray for them.  It is very important to be positive.  Meditations worked for me last evening.  I finally had a long unexpected sleep last night after listening to two guided meditation videos (one on sleep and the other on healing).  I stopped Calm Magnesium for now.  And I reduced 2.5% my reinstatement now at 25% (7.5mg am and 15mg night).  Now listening to a powerful healing 1hour music video titled "musique de guérison super puissante" - no words, only music - as I drank an homemade vegetable juice and and homemade chicken fried rice.  Maybe tonight I won't sleep, maybe I will.  For sure, I will heal and get better.  Positive thoughts are very important.

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Miyan
On 5/22/2018 at 12:42 AM, brassmonkey said:

There is one big exception to this pattern.  This is referred to as the “ten-month wave”, because it typically hits during month ten. 

This means when we are in tapering

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brassmonkey

The ten, twelve and eighteen month waves are after the taper is completed and the person has jumped to "0". Waves can happen at any time during a taper.

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Leo1983

can i ask a quick 1?

 

There are people who taper and have symptoms all the way down?

 

Then once they are off some can have severebsymptoms for months to years also? 

 

Thanks

 

 

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