methuselah: Hi all! Brief intro and advice?

[methuselah]

Thanks @ChessieCat.  I’ve seen that but I do have an excellent compounding pharmacy near me I used to taper off if mirtazipine a while back so I’ll probably use them.  
 

The question is, when do I make the move?  It’s hard to say what wdnormal will look like for me, it’s been 7 weeks since I switched to brand Prozac caps with symptoms coming and going and some new ones coming in and out still.  

[ChessieCat]

8 minutes ago, methuselah said:

The question is, when do I make the move?

 

That's something that only you can decide.

 

For my own taper, my thought was "if in doubt" don't.  It takes a lot of pressure off yourself because you are not continually thinking "will I, won't I".  Make a decision, eg I will hold for 1 more week/fortnight/month and then resassess.  That way you might be able to give yourself a break from worrying about it during that week. 

 

If you are dubious about making a reduction and you make it anyway, there is more chance that you will have some anxiety about doing it and then it makes it difficult to work out what is causing any issues.

 

If you think you might be ready but a not 100% sure, then you could make a small reduction to test.  But because of the long half life of Prozac you will need to wait several weeks before even considering making another and/or larger reduction.

 

You have been on a psychiatric drug since 1997, that is 25 years.  In the scheme of things, holding for a few more weeks (or longer if needed) is not going to make much different.  And it would be better to restart tapering knowing that you are starting from a place of stability, because even if the first reduction went okay, it might catch up with you down the track.  Also, if you give yourself a "tapering holiday" now where you don't worry yourself about what you are going to do, it might help to reduce the "battle weariness".  You might consider trying to have some time where you are feeling almost normal.

 

[methuselah]

Thanks @ChessieCat  I appreciate the advice, especially given your personal experience of being on psych drugs for about 25 years too!  I guess the problem is I thought I’d be much more stable at 7 weeks out from the changes I made (liquid to pill, generic to brand, 12 to 10mg).  Add to that taking expired Prozac for a month and going into acute, I guess my cns is just fried.  The fact that I’m not stable yet though, has me questioning if the drug is doing more harm than good.  Maybe the drug is making me feel so depressed, maybe the drug is causing the intrusive thoughts, etc .  I guess doubting the drug and not really knowing what’s happening is a pretty standard situation to be in, based on my reading here.  

 

All things considered, I’d love to find some semblance of normal to begin the taper.  That has always been the plan after the benzo withdrawal faded.  So…I guess I’ll continue to hold for awhile and maybe that normalcy will manifest itself over a few more weeks, maybe months, who knows.

 

“funny” side story - I talked to a new psychiatrist and he said he like to rip the bandaid off and just have people stop at 10mg Prozac.  He prescribes them propranolol and send them on their way.  He swears he’s had lots of succcess with  doing this with folks in my situation, after 25 years on meds too!  I call bs.  

[Onmyway]

On 1/22/2022 at 3:25 PM, methuselah said:

I’m sorry for the delay in responding as I read your post the day you wrote it.  Your words were so thoughtful and touching and…just the perfect words for me in the moment.  I sincerely thank you so so much for your post and telling me a bit of your story and your approach to dealing with it all, it really truly means the world to me.

 

 I’ve been trying to think of a worthy response but the words have eluded me in the muck that is my brain at the moment.  I know you know this, but I want to remind you of how helpful your words are to folks like me in our times of difficulty.  Again, thank you^♾   

 Thank you @methuselah, this means a lot to hear. There have been so many people/things in life that have felt exactly what I needed to hold me over during this process. Glad I was able to be one for you

 

Regarding withdrawal normal and when to taper, I think @ChessieCat's advice is outstanding. If in doubt, wait a bit longer. After my 5 to 0 of celexa I was in complete chaos which I tried to patch over with xanax but started clock-watching and in the end reinstated 2.5mg citalopram instead (the Mark Horowitz et al. article in the Lancet came right at that time). But even though I was still unstable and very very miserable, I kept lowering by 10% a month for a few months. I had good reasons to do it but my body was not on board. It was perhaps the most awful time of my life. It wasn't until I stopped tapering and held for about 3 months that things started getting better. When I held for 8 months in 2020 things felt almost back to normal. So give yourself another month. 

 

One thing to remember is to recognize when things are improving. Our brains are tuned in to look out for danger and symptoms because they want to protect us from bad things. So in the meantime we forget to recognize that things are getting better. Maybe do a reverse-symptom journal? What symptoms have gotten better today? What symptoms have I not seen in weeks or months? 

 

Right now I am in a wave and miserable but I try to remind myself how much much more miserable I was and am grateful for the ability to bear this. There were times when I wasn't sure I could. 

 

There is something to be said about holding until you feel much better even if it is months. It gives you the confidence that this will indeed get better and you start the taper with renewed hope that no matter how bad things get, healing will follow. This evidence in the body's ability to heal has held me through a lot of darkness and is a reminder that all of this is temporary even if for a long time. 

 

[ChessieCat]

44 minutes ago, methuselah said:

All things considered, I’d love to find some semblance of normal to begin the taper.  That has always been the plan after the benzo withdrawal faded.

 

From your drug signature it looks like you did a fairly quick taper off the benzo.  That could be at play in all of this.

 

Don't know if I have suggested this before (it's easier to repeat than to look back on the notes) but when you do decide to taper you might consider doing a small reduction, eg 2.5% and then hold for 4 weeks.

[methuselah]

 

The consensus is clearly to hold, and that is what I will do.  I’ll give it another month, at least, then reassess how I feel.  When I do feel normal ish  and stable…please god/universe/whatever…and decide to start to drop I will lower my dose by 2.5%, down to 9.75mg.  Hold there for a month, and see what happens.  Let the body be my guide thereafter on speed.

 

@ChessieCat - the benzo withdrawal may indeed be a factor here.  I was on benzos daily dosing for a few years, don’t know exactly how long. 2, 3,4 years, more maybe.  I did a DMLT off a relatively low dose of Valium (3.5mg) over about 9 months.  I was at higher doses previously (klonopin and Valium) and stumbled clumsily down to 3.5 mg where I sat for a while.  I stopped entirely at about .3mg and that was too high.  I still hit acute wd despite my attempts to avoid it. That lasted a few weeks with some protracted withdrawal that followed for a few months.  I was feeling quite good at 3 months out and started to drink alcohol again.  Drank several days in a row and went back into protracted benzo withdrawal (PAWS) which has been ongoing.  I’ll be off the Valium for two years April 6 2022.  Haven’t had a sip of alcohol since July 1 2020.  
 

Id always planned to taper Prozac after benzo wd stabilization, I did not plan to take expired Prozac and hit withdrawal and be where I am now though.  “The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft a-gley.”
 

@Onmyway

 

Im sorry to hear you are in a rough patch.  It’s like you say, you’ve witnessed the body’s ability to heal, and it will again.
 

I read through your entire intro thread a few days back.  I did catch your latest post on there today as well.  You have a new contract, some travel in your future, and a lot of great stuff happening, I’m so happy for you!!!  Windows will come, they always do
 

i love the idea of a reverse symptom journal, btw.  It focuses the mind on the positive and may help to rewire some positivity into the brain.

 

Thank you both!

 

M 

[ChessieCat]

7 minutes ago, methuselah said:

i love the idea of a reverse symptom journal, btw.  It focuses the mind on the positive and may help to rewire some positivity into the brain.

 

progress-what-withdrawal-symptoms-have-gone-away-for-you

 

[methuselah]

Hi @Onmyway @Altostrata@ChessieCat

 

It looks like it's been about two months since my last confession, and these are my sins...little catholic humor there, not meant to be offensive

 

I figured I'd chime in and give an update for anyone following/interested.  I'm still at 10mg brand name prozac capsules daily.  As a refresher, that is down from 12.5mg liquid generic prozac starting Dec 4, along with taking an expired bottle of Prozac leading to acute withdrawal hitting November 25.  So, a pretty big mess and a lot of changes i suppose all at once, more or less.

 

I think I'm getting better and stabilizing but progress is extremely slow.  I've dealt with quite a bit of stress for the last few months as well, relationship issues and a breakup, moving, tons of work stress, etc.  Normal life stuff, but still difficult. 

 

The first half of February was pretty difficult with the most significant issue being deep dark clinical depression with other things peppered in...irritability, insomnia, feeling off in my mind (can't quite explain this one), intrusive thoughts, DR, earworms of all things (a catchy song or tune that runs continually through a person's mind, not actual worms :)), some anxiety. The second half of Feb lightened up quite a bit and I'd felt probably what we would colloquially refer to as wdnormal.  

 

The first two weeks of March i had a lot of trouble sleeping, but melatonin helped to a point.  Last week I felt sorta human for the first time in a while, singing along to an old punk rock band i listened to in college, getting my new place organized, messing with the lawn, planting some flowers, etc.   Depression hit pretty hard mid March but lifted as quickly as it came.  Tried a new psych who was as arrogant as she was dismissive, total disaster.  Another prozac self-tapering, I'm the psychiatrist you're the patient type.  As soon as she said self-taper she lost me.  Suggested TMS and i considered it, but not for long.  I think i'm just searching for affirmation or something, i don't know why i keep wasting my time and money on these people.

 

I'm definitely in a waves and windows pattern, more waves than windows.  Windows can last 20 minutes to several days.  Waves are dominant still as I mentioned.  Key symptoms at this point are Depression and lethargy, DR/DP, some anxiety and feeling like mind is off or i'm going crazy, feeling like i'll never get better.  The good news is i've been able to exercise pretty regularly, am more or less functional, and i do have some windows.  So progress i guess.  Certainly better than i was in January.

 

I'm debating on when to start my taper.  I thought i'd be more stabilized at this point, but i'm not so I'm exercising patience and think i should hold off another few months and hope for more stabilization as it seems to be happening.  I guess that's it, thanks for reading and i hope everyone is doing well!

 

Best,

 

M

 

[YachtRock]

Good to see your update @methuselah. Sorry to hear about the breakup, but otherwise sounds like things are improving vs earlier this year for sure! Good job sticking to your plan. I feel like I am on a similar trajectory and we just need to be patient.

[Altostrata]

Good to hear from you, @methuselah Sounds like you're stabilizing. What is your current drug schedule, with dosages? How do you feel before and after each dose?

[methuselah]

33 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Good to hear from you, @methuselah Sounds like you're stabilizing. What is your current drug schedule, with dosages? How do you feel before and after each dose?

thanks @Altostrata, I appreciate you chiming in.  Current drug schedule is 10mg Prozac brand name capsules daily at 8-830am.  It’s difficult to say how I feel before the dose because I’m taking it pretty quickly after I wake up.  I don’t wake up feeling bad though usually tbh.  It usually starts late morning.  Some days are better than others so it’s not clear if the drug is directly causing my issues at this point.  Of course the years on it are causing it, I think u know what I mean. I know that when I’m in a wave it feels like the drug is paradoxical but that could just be in my head.
 

All this begs the question, how long does one wait to determine if one is actually experiencing waves of stabilization or negative effects of the med.  I guess it’s impossible to say until a dose decrease tests the waters. perhaps there is another way I don’t know of…

[Altostrata]

On 3/31/2022 at 7:22 PM, methuselah said:

It usually starts late morning.

 

What symptoms start late morning?

[methuselah]

1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

 

What symptoms start late morning?

Hey @Altostrata!  When I do get symptoms, pretty much all of them start late morning…lethargy, the cycling mental symptoms (depression, anxiety, DR (always there but is more noticeable at times), feeling mentally off and just not quite right, weird sound sensitivity and echoey trippy thing in head like whispers and echos like I described in previous posts).  With night generally getting better but not always.  
 

In fact, yesterday I ate when I took the Prozac, which I never do as I always take the drug fasted, and yesterday was the worst day I’ve had in months.  I also took Claritin at the same time but I’ve taken before with no issues and can’t imagine that causing the “wave”.

[methuselah]

Perhaps i spoke too soon about getting better.  i guess i am getting better based on the typical stabilization pattern, but the last few days have been rough.  Super tired the last few days (the tree pollen in NC certainly doesn't help), almost reverse motivation in that i'm highly motivated to not do my work or much of anything save lay on the couch, some anxiety and burning skin type feeling in chest, feeling weird/off mentally, super flat, highly depressive episodes, sex drive dropped off, etc.  Relatively speaking, this is probably not that bad, all relative i guess.  Waves always feel like they've been there forever and will never lift when they come, I understand this is normal.

 

It's been 4 months since my last change (trifecta - brand change, liquid to pill, 17% dose decrease) and 4.5 months since taking expired liquid and going into w/d.  I also understand from reading the site resources and personal threads, that stabilization can take many months so i'm waiting "patiently".  i guess it will take what it will take.  As soon as i stabilize, i'm switching to compound pharmacy liquid, with proper 4 week transition, and beginning brass monkey slide.  F this, seriously, F this.  If it takes me 10 years to get off, F it.  

 

That is all, thanks for letting me vent Surviving Antidepressants!

[Altostrata]

What time o'clock do you take Prozac, what times of day are better or worse?

 

Probably best to take any other drug, even an antihistamine, at a different time than you take Prozac.

[methuselah]

25 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

What time o'clock do you take Prozac, what times of day are better or worse?

 

Probably best to take any other drug, even an antihistamine, at a different time than you take Prozac.

 
I take the Prozac at 830 am daily.  I took the antihistamine today at noon and sure enough symptoms crept in a few hours after.  Coincidence, perhaps.   I guess I’ll just deal with the pollen.  

I’m also sensitive to magnesium, it makes me depressed.  Which is soooo stupid, but I tested it multiple times and that does seem to be a fact. 
 

Day is usually, not always, worst late morning through early evening.

[ChessieCat]

1 hour ago, methuselah said:

I guess I’ll just deal with the pollen.

 

I have read somewhere, no idea where, that if you smear Vaseline / petroleum jelly in your nose it can help to stop the pollen from going into your sinuses.

 

Internet search:  petroleum jelly hayfever

[Altostrata]

Please keep daily notes of times o’clock you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. We need to know how you feel before and after taking each drug, and your symptoms in between. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time o’clock on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right. This can show if your symptoms are adverse effects from one of your drugs.

[methuselah]

On 4/5/2022 at 11:07 PM, Altostrata said:

Please keep daily notes of times o’clock you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. We need to know how you feel before and after taking each drug, and your symptoms in between. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time o’clock on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right. This can show if your symptoms are adverse effects from one of your drugs.

 

@Altostrata Daily Notes for a few days below.  There appears to be no rhyme or reason, sometimes it feels like i am reacting to the drug, other times i have a good day and seem to have no reaction at all.  Perhaps it's waves and windows of stabilization still at 4+ months since all changes made and expired med reaction,, i have no clue.  Thanks for reading and for any feedback.

 

April 8

 

830am - wake up, take 10mg prozac pulvule.  woke with some anxiety but nothing extraordinary.

1pm - did core and yoga outside in the sun on my porch, it was magnificent.  Went sorta hard with adding in handstand training as well, paid for it next day a bit i think.

Fine throughout day

6pm - began to feel depressed, very bored of daily routine.  I miss alcohol and being able to have a drink.  This pops up sometimes.

8pm - Depression lifted.  Went to Tijajuana Flats and got tacos with my son, it was not good.  

10pm - stomach issues from the food, mental note, don't go to this place to eat again.

12am - sleep

3am - stomach issues woke me, it was unpleasant.  Probably mild food poisoning, good times.

 

April 9

830am - woke up, take 10mg prozac pulvule.  Felt off when i woke up.  

1145am - Felt blah, ruminations around feeling bad and it being endless.  Feeling bad is feeling tired, obsessions about health and whether it's the med or not the med, what to do, fear of next steps, being depressed, thinking about being depressed, endless DR/DP

2pm - went to Farmer's Market with son, some strange DR there and some depression due to dark/cloudy day perhaps, but pushed through.

3-11pm - more of the same.  waves and windows throughout.  Watched a movie with son

12 am - sleep

 

April 10

830am - woke, take 10mg prozac pulvule.  

Pretty good day, best day in a while.  Always some lingering and emerging depression and DR/DP and obsessions, but a decent day.  Went to climbing gym, went for a drive downtown, drove around with son exploring city, got ice cream, etc.

11am - Realized i had a good day and doubt crept in a bit about the next rug pull.

Sleep at 12am.

 

April 11 - * i realize this isn't a full day notes, just wanted to further illustrate the obvious variation in my day to day well-being

830am - woke, took prozac. didn't sleep well.

10am - at new "integrative/holistic" p doc office visit, hit an intense spell of DR that lasted several minutes.  Not only did the doctor and his backround look completely fake, but it was almost like the walls were moving around behind him, like a zoom type visual or something.  sooooo strange. 

130 pm - Reeled from that DR episode through about 130pm, took 30 minute nap. Repeat of obsessions about health and whether it's the med or not the med, what to do, fear of next steps, being depressed, thinking about being depressed, endless DR/DP

3pm - starting to come around, not obsessing, not depressed, etc.  

* - doc suggested ashwaganda and l-theanine.  I'll probably try the ashwaganda, but theanine interacts with GABA and given my benzo history and potential for being in PWS from that on top of whatever else is happening, i think I'll stay away from it. i emailed him the 2019 Horowitz paper as well as the one Alto worked on that goes thru the statistical analysis on this site and its users, he hasn't read either yet but promised to "try to get to it" before my next visit.

 

thanks all!

 

M

 

 

 

 

[Heath]

@methuselah just stopping by and reading your story. You are doing very good with your taper plan ! Committed 💪. You are giving others inspiration !

Im right there with you! I had rather have these physical symptoms and milder emotions ( irritable, fatigue, no emotions , no memory etc.) any day as I would the extreme uncontrollable spiraling emotions. Slow, steady, stable. When in doubt hold. 
 

note- and I say milder symptoms but they are also rough at times. 
 

Just to encourage you- I have been in a wave dark place 4 or 5 times . And each time It usually was around 4 months I started feeling better. And it usually took me another 2 months to feel back to myself.  So around 6 months total hold. Sometimes I felt so good I didn’t want to taper again but I knew the side effects would start creeping back in. 

The big question on when to start tapering again? The closest answer I know is “you will know “. Your thoughts will be about other things in life , you will forget about some of the symptoms you had. You may even forget a drs appointment about a symptom that went away. everyone is different. 

And like onmyway said it really does give you a better outlook and courage and hope to continue the taper off this poison after a good long hold. 
Take care! 

[Altostrata]

How has your sleep pattern changed in the last month?

[methuselah]

16 hours ago, Altostrata said:

How has your sleep pattern changed in the last month?

 

@AltostrataI had some insomnia for the second half of March, but melatonin did help a bit...  "small" doses too, like .5 to 1mg.  I was getting like 4-5 hours per night.  The funny thing is, when i have trouble sleeping, the daytime mental symptoms aren't as bad, I'm just really tired and cloudy during the day. Sleep has seemed to stabilize a bit more in the last few weeks, but is often broken up and doesn't seem to be a deep sleep or anything.  I've been able to get 6-7 hours most nights.  I've always been a bit of a night owl so tend to fall asleep later (12am-2am) and wake a bit later (8am-9am) than is recommended.

 

Another funny symptom worth mentioning, usually when i eat the first meal of the day (11am or so) it seems to spur symptoms, especially cold and some chills.  It's like i'm reacting to the food, or what my gut is telling me is the issue, that the food is competing with the prozac levels in my blood or something and throwing it off, it's weird.  

 

thanks for reading

[methuselah]

21 hours ago, Heath said:

@methuselah just stopping by and reading your story. You are doing very good with your taper plan ! Committed 💪. You are giving others inspiration !

Im right there with you! I had rather have these physical symptoms and milder emotions ( irritable, fatigue, no emotions , no memory etc.) any day as I would the extreme uncontrollable spiraling emotions. Slow, steady, stable. When in doubt hold. 
 

note- and I say milder symptoms but they are also rough at times. 
 

Just to encourage you- I have been in a wave dark place 4 or 5 times . And each time It usually was around 4 months I started feeling better. And it usually took me another 2 months to feel back to myself.  So around 6 months total hold. Sometimes I felt so good I didn’t want to taper again but I knew the side effects would start creeping back in. 

The big question on when to start tapering again? The closest answer I know is “you will know “. Your thoughts will be about other things in life , you will forget about some of the symptoms you had. You may even forget a drs appointment about a symptom that went away. everyone is different. 

And like onmyway said it really does give you a better outlook and courage and hope to continue the taper off this poison after a good long hold. 
Take care! 

 

Hi @Heath  Thanks for chiming in and for the kind words.  It looks like we have pretty similar histories, though i admit i thank God i was only on Paxil for about 6 months back in 2015.  Paxil scares the ever living sh1t out of me and i thank the universe that is not the drug i need to taper from.  I'm guessing your drug merry go round after the paxil was trying to treat paxil withdrawal. Fortunately, i don't think you need to worry about that one either since it's been so long since you've touched it.  You look like you're making good progress on the lexapro taper... slow, steady, and stable wins the race they say.  You know it's interesting, we, as users of these drugs, reach a point where we innately, instinctively know that our problems are almost certainly directly linked to the "meds" we've been on and are taking.  Seems we both had the same epiphany at about the same time (2018).  It's like, what are we treating here, what exactly are we taking this sh1t for at this point.  Clearly, to not withdraw.  unreal man, unreal.  Anyway, rant over...

 

On the prozac taper, i'm waiting to stabilize i guess, then i'm going to switch to liquid gradually, then start.  Not sure if i'm stabilizing or the meds are messing with me, working with Alto on that now as you can see in the thread.  

 

Yes!  I'd much rather have the physical symptoms you mentioned than the emotions and weird thought patterns, intrusive thoughts, etc.  However, the physical symptoms can be really weird and debilitating for some.

 

Thanks for the encouragement.  i'm at 4.25 months since a a bunch of changes and probably withdrawal brought on by expired liquid, so a lot has happened.  hoping that at 6 months i'll feel back to myself.  Though, i haven't felt like myself for any extended period in years.

 

I think that you're right, as was onmyway and others, and i will know when to begin tapering again.  The good news is that there aren't many variables to my equation.  Benzo has been gone for 2 years as of April 6 so that just is what it is.  Only thing left is i'm either stabilizing or reacting to prozac, time will tell.  

 

Take it easy Heath!

 

M

[Altostrata]

59 minutes ago, methuselah said:

I was getting like 4-5 hours per night.  The funny thing is, when i have trouble sleeping, the daytime mental symptoms aren't as bad, I'm just really tired and cloudy during the day.

 

This is typical for withdrawal syndrome.

 

59 minutes ago, methuselah said:

Sleep has seemed to stabilize a bit more in the last few weeks, but is often broken up and doesn't seem to be a deep sleep or anything.  I've been able to get 6-7 hours most nights.

 

Your sleep is improving. Recovery is slow, uneven, and frustrating. Same with the gut symptoms. You may wish to eat very bland foods.

[methuselah]

@Altostrata

 

i know there is a thread on Ashwaganda and other supplements but thought I’d chime in here as I’d mentioned it in one of my recent posts.  My psychiatrist recommended trying Ashwaganda.  I bought Klaire labs brand, which he also recommended.  Waited a few days to gather the courage to take it, took about 150mg Ashwaganda this morning at 1030am, two hours after standard 10mg Prozac dose, and became SEVERELY depressed about 2 hours after taking Ashwaganda with depression and dark thoughts lasting about two hours then slowly lifting.  God knows why, maybe it’s competing for the Prozac in my body, I don’t know.  But I do know I’ll NEVER take it again.  That is my unfortunate experience.  Magnesium makes me feel similar but not as severe.  Looks like it’s fish oil and melatonin only going forward.   

[Altostrata]

Please use search and add to the ashwaganda topic.

[methuselah]

I’m not sure who to ask this question to, perhaps @brassmonkeyis the best person to ask.  I hope it’s ok that I tagged you.  Ok, so I’m debating on how to best switch from brand name 10mg capsule Prozac to compound pharmacy generic Prozac in a suspension.  Am I correct in that this switch would be the equivalent of two changes, from brand to generic and from capsule to liquid?  Pretty sure I am, so this begs the question, how do I handle this.  Do I just transition from the brand capsule to the liquid generic over a month or two?  Or do I transition from the brand capsule to the brand capsule being compound into liquid, then hold for a month, then from the brand compound liquid to the generic liquid over another month or two?  Thanks for any feedback!

 

important PS here, I’m still not stable feom all the sh1t that happened in November/December 2021.  Seems like I should be by now as it’s been 5.5 months with no changes, but here I am.  So, I won’t make any of the changes mentioned above until I find more stabilization or run out of patience.  Seems the consensus from my reading is that I should be stable by 6 months out after an event, but I’m guess maybe not.  

[brassmonkey]

Even though it is two dose change events it should be possible to make the transition in one cross taper. Here is information on doing a cross taper, I would allow a little extra time on each step.

 

Cross Over: Changing form (eg tablet to liquid) of drug OR changing brand of same drug - Tapering - Surviving Antidepressants

 

[methuselah]

So, just wanted to touch base with an update for anyone following.  It's been 5.5 months since 3 simultaneous dose change events and 6.5 months since acute withdrawal symptoms from expired liquid Prozac.  Sometimes it feels like I'm stabilizing, other times it feels like little progress has been made.  Listed below is what I'm dealing with on and off, no clear pattern.  I'm going to start tracking this stuff daily again as some days it feels like I'm reacting to the prozac, other days it feels like I'm not, most days i haven't a clue and am just exhausted by the unknown and no clear next steps as i haven't a clue on when to start tapering.  If life was in a vacuum, I'd start now, but i have responsibilities including work, child, etc.  At the same time, i'm not doing great so what does it matter.  Devil you know is better than the devil you don't i suppose.  I'm tempted to start anyway given my propensity to think many of these things are side effects/paradoxical effect of the med.  I'm just lost on this whole thing.

 

Primary Symptomology - keep in mind original treatment started for "Pure O" OCD when i was teen, so majority of these symptoms are alien to me save other attempts at tapers and med changes

DR/DP

Auditory DR, Auditory disturbances and sensitivity.  Not hallucinations per se, but very odd

Depression, low mood, low motivation, SI

Intrusive thoughts, OCD type stuff Cold spells with shivering - these have been going on for a while, i'm almost certain this is a side effect of the prozac.

Anxiety

Feeling Ok

Feeling actually good for a few hours here and there

Wave days with micro-windows

Window days with micro-waves

Feeling completely "normal" for short-term (5 minutes) to mid-term (30 minutes) bursts

Ruminating about all this being due to med reaction and it going paradoxical, it being withdrawal, am I ever going to get better, etc.

Some insomnia, but limited with sleep patterns being more or less ok.  Difficult to crawl out of bed in the morning, daily    occurrence

Stress sensitivity   *Edit - one thing to note is that the waves seem to have some commonality in them.  For example, a wave may be more depression focused, or a wave may be more DR focused.     *Edit 2 - Another theory is that as i went into ssri withdrawal, perhaps the 10mg brand name prozac is basically too high of a reinstatement and that's why i'm not truly stabilizing as i'm just too sensitive to the dose.  not sure if that explains it exactly as it's like i said, there are days where i feel sort of ok, or even decent, and limited periods where i feel normal'ish.

[methuselah]

On 5/19/2022 at 1:46 PM, methuselah said:

So, just wanted to touch base with an update for anyone following.  It's been 5.5 months since 3 simultaneous dose change events and 6.5 months since acute withdrawal symptoms from expired liquid Prozac.  Sometimes it feels like I'm stabilizing, other times it feels like little progress has been made.  Listed below is what I'm dealing with on and off, no clear pattern.  I'm going to start tracking this stuff daily again as some days it feels like I'm reacting to the prozac, other days it feels like I'm not, most days i haven't a clue and am just exhausted by the unknown and no clear next steps as i haven't a clue on when to start tapering.  If life was in a vacuum, I'd start now, but i have responsibilities including work, child, etc.  At the same time, i'm not doing great so what does it matter.  Devil you know is better than the devil you don't i suppose.  I'm tempted to start anyway given my propensity to think many of these things are side effects/paradoxical effect of the med.  I'm just lost on this whole thing.

 

Primary Symptomology - keep in mind original treatment started for "Pure O" OCD when i was teen, so majority of these symptoms are alien to me save other attempts at tapers and med changes

DR/DP

Auditory DR, Auditory disturbances and sensitivity.  Not hallucinations per se, but very odd

Depression, low mood, low motivation, SI

Intrusive thoughts, OCD type stuff Cold spells with shivering - these have been going on for a while, i'm almost certain this is a side effect of the prozac.

Anxiety

Feeling Ok

Feeling actually good for a few hours here and there

Wave days with micro-windows

Window days with micro-waves

Feeling completely "normal" for short-term (5 minutes) to mid-term (30 minutes) bursts

Ruminating about all this being due to med reaction and it going paradoxical, it being withdrawal, am I ever going to get better, etc.

Some insomnia, but limited with sleep patterns being more or less ok.  Difficult to crawl out of bed in the morning, daily    occurrence

Stress sensitivity   *Edit - one thing to note is that the waves seem to have some commonality in them.  For example, a wave may be more depression focused, or a wave may be more DR focused.     *Edit 2 - Another theory is that as i went into ssri withdrawal, perhaps the 10mg brand name prozac is basically too high of a reinstatement and that's why i'm not truly stabilizing as i'm just too sensitive to the dose.  not sure if that explains it exactly as it's like i said, there are days where i feel sort of ok, or even decent, and limited periods where i feel normal'ish.

@Altostrata@Onmyway
 

I’m sorry, I don’t know who to tag for this.  Would either of you mind having a quick read of my last post, quoted above, and provide any feedback.  Today was another ROUGH one with high anxiety and crazy thoughts and all that mess.  Based on extensive reading, It seems like I should be stable by now but it isn’t happening, or if it is, it’s taking forever and is EXTREMELY uneven as I’ve felt as bad the last few days as I did months ago…and of course I thought I was making a turn for the better.  Thanks for any of your time.  
 

M

[Altostrata]

Those waves and windows are what we expect of nervous system upset from withdrawal or drug changes. If you manage to keep your drug intake consistent, the waves and windows should gradually fade, but can take months, especially if you have other drug change events.

[methuselah]

3 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Those waves and windows are what we expect of nervous system upset from withdrawal or drug changes. If you manage to keep your drug intake consistent, the waves and windows should gradually fade, but can take months, especially if you have other drug change events.

@Altostrata thanks.  I have made no drug changes since December 4, 202I.  I know it takes what it takes and everyone is different and all that, but based on your extensive experience, have you seen folks in similar situations to mine take more than 6 months to stabilize?  It’s just difficult to believe this is still happening,  It’s like, do I put a deadline on this and just start tapering at say, 9 months, 12 months, etc if stabilization hasn’t occurred…how long does one wait?  

[Altostrata]

On 5/19/2022 at 6:46 PM, methuselah said:

It's been 5.5 months since 3 simultaneous dose change events and 6.5 months since acute withdrawal symptoms from expired liquid Prozac.

 

What drugs are you taking now, at what times o'clock and dosages? How do you feel before and after each dose?

[methuselah]

@AltostrataOnly thing I’m taking is 10mg brand name Prozac capsules every morning at 830am fasted.  Never miss a day, never deviate from that time.  Never change anything.  Do not take anything else other than 1000mg fish oil with lunch which seems to help very little if at all .  I’ve been taking  the fish oil for months and tried not taking it, taking it, no different either way.

 

I usually feel fine in the morning with symptoms kicking off 1-2 hours after I take the drug.  Symptoms picked up quite a bit last week for no apparent reason and include: DR, auditory distortions and sensitivity - like I will question if i actually heard a sound and then the sound sort of stirs around in my head almost like a light whoosh sound at a whisper or something; better yet breathe out of your mouth and the sound that makes is sort of what stirs in my head and sometimes no sound trigger is required it just seems to happen, anxiety, chest tightness, intrusive thoughts, low flat mood, disconnected.  I typically feel best in the morning when I wake up, though I’m oft dreading the day, and better in the evening at say, 7pm or so.  Sleep is ok for the most part which is good.  
 

[Altostrata]

53 minutes ago, methuselah said:

I usually feel fine in the morning with symptoms kicking off 1-2 hours after I take the drug.

 

On 4/4/2022 at 1:40 AM, methuselah said:

Hey @Altostrata!  When I do get symptoms, pretty much all of them start late morning…lethargy, the cycling mental symptoms (depression, anxiety, DR (always there but is more noticeable at times), feeling mentally off and just not quite right, weird sound sensitivity and echoey trippy thing in head like whispers and echos like I described in previous posts).  With night generally getting better but not always.  

....

 

This pattern indicates that 10mg Prozac may be causing the symptoms as it is absorbed. It's very possible this is too high a dose for you. You might try a 10% reduction, keeping daily notes to see how your symptom pattern changes.

[methuselah]

@Altostrata Ok.  I don’t have a scale or anything at the moment, but I emptied the capsule this morning and did my best to cut 1/10 of it out.  I put the 9/10 of the powder directly into my mouth and chased it down with water.  Fingers crossed, I am sooooooooo nervous about this.  🤯. I’ll keep daily notes and post them here.