☼ Windsor77: Celexa - it's time for peace

[Wellbutrinsucks]

Have you considered stopping all psychoactive drugs? Or do you see the risk of continuing them less than what the original problem is?

[Windsor77]

Getting off of these drugs is what most of us here at SA are trying to do.  

 

Its not not as easy as just stopping.  

[Wellbutrinsucks]

I wasn’t saying that it was easy; it’s incredibly difficult. I was just saying that It seems like being on the drugs was making   you much sicker. Have you had a time period where you were on no drugs, and if so, were you sicker than you are now?

 

I also ask that because I have many of the same symptoms as you and was told to immediately stop all medications, yet I still have many of the same symptoms as people still on them.

[manymoretodays]

Hi Windsor77,

I've pulled up a couple of threads for you on using Antihistamines while in W/D:

Antihistamines for withdrawal insomnia

^ this one is more specific to diphenhydramine

I would caution on using the Benadryl too much.......as if it goes paradoxical that would not be good.

 

Antihistamines and what to use for allergy relief

 

.....and then of course you know how to use drugs.com as well I think.  You can do a basic drug information check in the top box. 

As well as the interactions check between citalopram and benadryl.  It looks like the 2 do have a moderate interaction, dizziness and cognitive impairment.

 

Great on the partial days notes so far.  Try and get a whole days worth in......when you post the notes.  Thank you.

I just want you to be cautious while symptoms are so intense.

 

Best,

L, P, H, and growth,

mmt

 

 

[manymoretodays]

27 minutes ago, Wellbutrinsucks said:

I wasn’t saying that it was easy; it’s incredibly difficult. I was just saying that It seems like being on the drugs was making   you much sicker. Have you had a time period where you were on no drugs, and if so, were you sicker than you are now?

 

I also ask that because I have many of the same symptoms as you and was told to immediately stop all medications, yet I still have many of the same symptoms as people still on them.

 

Hi WBS,

I think, from looking at your signature......that you and Windsor77 have different situations.......both present and past.

Not to be rude, but could you cease with your pushing for him to just stop his medication.

Thankyou,

mmt

Addenum:  You are more than welcome to post some more of your experiences on your own introduction/journal.  And offer Winsor77 support in the way of non-drug coping.  Best.

Edited November 25, 2018 by manymoretodays
addenum

[Wellbutrinsucks]

That’s not what I was doing, but okay. I’m sorry for how you’re feeling @Windsor77.

[Happy2Heal]

On 11/22/2018 at 12:09 PM, Windsor77 said:

Has anyone ever had the tremors or jerks muscle fatigue and nerve pain and had them subside?  Still worrying about being stuck like this forever.

 

 

hi Windsor77,
I had terrible jerking and twitches, nerve pain, fatigue, you name it. my legs muscles would jerk so badly my leg would fly up in the air, it was incredible! it happened every time I was on the verge of falling asleep, so it was very distressing.

 

all of these symptoms declined in a fairly short period of time (several months) and never came back, knock wood, even while I still had some other symptoms of different types.

I wonder what you are taking benadryl for? benadryl is known to cause restless leg syndrome- I wonder if some of your jerking might be caused by the benadryl?

It might be worth it to try going without it...?

just tossing that out there as an idea

 

 

[ChessieCat]

4 hours ago, Happy2Heal said:

benadryl for? benadryl is known to cause restless leg syndrome-

 

From https://www.everydayhealth.com/sleep/triggers-that-make-restless-legs-worse.aspx

 

A number of medications can make RLS worse. In particular, anti-nausea drugs and sedating antihistamines (like Benadryl) block the brain’s dopamine receptors, causing restless legs symptoms.

[Windsor77]

Benadryl has very successfully calmed my shaky feelings over the past months.  I take half a pill. 12.5 mg.  A couple days without it won’t hurt as an experiment.  I’ll try anything. 

 

I have taken only 5 mg of citalopram the past two nights.   I realize that only two nights does not a pattern make.  And also- that this is a big drop from where I was 2 weeks ago.  Mildly less noticeable symptoms, though.  I’m thinking I should return to the 6.5mg???

 

Id like to try splitting the doses.   Since I took the dose last night around 8:45, can I take, say a half dose this morning?  Is that too close?

 

 

[manymoretodays]

Hi Windsor77,

As you have been taking the Benadryl for several months now.......I'd suggest a bit of a taper down before just going off.  There's some discussion around tapering off another antihistamine here:  Tips for Tapering Promethazine(Phenergan)

Consider just a 25% drop in Benadryl to start.

 

Notes please!  You know the drill.  And you know how to do them.  The proceeding days, if you have them to post.  Put them all in one post, with your questions about splitting, changing dosages, etc.

 

Thank you.

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

[Windsor77]

Thanksgiving

fall asleep and wake with minor jerks and muscle twitches.  Usual waking 2-3 times for approx 10mins each. 

Take mag citrate and fish oil pills

Wake and feel tense and shaky in arms and limbs. 

Take benadryl.  12.5.  This relieves the tension and shakiness.  Jerks reduce as well, as does random muscle twitching.  

Eat turkey.  Approx 4oz of red wine. 

Minor disassociation feelings are present 

minor anhedonia

bedtime- take 6.5mg.  Fall asleep. Minor jerks and twitching. Noticeable cause I’m still. 

Wake a couple of times.  Sleep is fine. 

 

Friday,

See prior posts.  Terrible.   Feel shaky, tense and with stiff muscles and hyperreflexia.   Same as every day.  

Take fish oil and mag citrate pills 

Hot tea

chili for lunch. 

Symptoms are constant.  

12.5 benadryl.  Minor relief

16 oz water

dinner was lasagna

I just feel hesitant to exert muscles cause of how shaky they can feel.   Similar to how one would feel if fasting for a long time.  

Skipped 6.5 mg dose

sleep was same as usual. 

 

Saturday

wake with reduced, but still present symptoms of shakiness feeling and twitches and jerks when still. 

Stiffness a little better. 

Take fish oil and mag citrate pills

Took an Emergency-C 

Hot tea 

blueberry muffin for breakfast

pasta for lunch. 

Anxiety was heightened throughout day

shopping with family

benadryl 12.5

dinner early at home. 

Out with friends - 

home late 12am. 

Took 5mg citalopram

slept poorly.

Woke with anxiety related to suspected TD

Sunday

4am- awake with anxiety. Worrying about TD symptom. Took 12.5 mg benadryl.  

5:45am awake briefly

8:30 awake- jerking and twitching as described above. 

9:30 - 12 oz carbonated water, fish oil and magnesium citrate pills

Epsom Salt bath 

10- 12.5 mg Benadryl. 

Hot tea

Turkey for lunch 

current- mild twitching in random areas.  Fatigue. Sore knees and on muscles around hips.  Shoulders too. 

Mild palpitations. 

Rest of day, I felt pretty ok. 

Felt a bit disassociated.  Not talkative. 

Chicken for dinner.

water to drink. 

Home- take 5mg citalopram at 8:30pm

Within an hour I felt a little more tension and twitches.  Slept well. Woke only twice briefly. 

 

Woke today- feeling a little better.  Symptoms present, but not too severe. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Windsor77]

@manymoretodays - As you can see my routine is the same nearly every day.    I have to say I feel a bit better, but who knows if and when the cumulative effect of switching to 5mg citalopram will hit me.  Usually it’s about a week before I can tell.   What I can say is that I won’t go any lower for a while to see if this reduction in symptoms lasts.  

Update- I am feeling a little bit lightheaded today.  Not sure id related to reduced dose or not. 

 

@Altostrata

@ChessieCat - can you advise how I should approach the split dose?  Should I just take half or so tonight, and then another in the morning, then evening, etc?  

 

Any thoughts on whether I should stay at 5mg or go back up?

 

thanks to all 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

4 hours ago, Windsor77 said:

can you advise how I should approach the split dose?

 

You move part of the dose by 1 hour each day.

 

4 hours ago, Windsor77 said:

Any thoughts on whether I should stay at 5mg or go back up?

 

You've been trying to reduce your dose quickly because you think it is causing the shakiness.  You've been messing around with your doses.  The brain likes consistency.  You seem to want to change things the moment that something happens or doesn't happen.  During the process of stabilising patience is very necessary.

 

And it's recommended to only make one change at a time otherwise if something changes, for worse or better, you won't know what has caused it.  Keep it Simple, Slow and Stable

[manymoretodays]

Same.  I don't see any consistency in dose, or time of dose yet.......in which to draw any conclusions from Windsor.

Do you?

[Windsor77]

@ChessieCat

@manymoretodays

up until the recent changes, and two dose skips, I religiously (for lack of a better term) have taken my meds at or close to 8:45 pm.  Always before bed.  That has been consistent since I switched to Celexa.  

Forgive me, but my daily notes are almost always the same, symptom wise, etc.   I will concede that I am rushing the dose titration, but I don’t understand how you could state no consistency in dose or time of dose.  Up until the past two weeks, it was like clockwork. 

The symptoms kept getting worse.  

 

Despite many any articles like the one below, and my doctors’s suggestion to perhaps switch,  as well as my own feeling more and more poisoned, I have taken the advice to “stay the course”, even though some of the symptoms detailed in this article are happening to me.   

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4825509/

 

Forgive me if I am in a hurry.  Feeling like hell daily has done that to a lot of us.  

 

I also don’t know why the slow metabolism angle, when brought up by my doc was not given any credence, but then brought back up as a possibility of me metabolizing too fast by moderators.   Can anyone explain the difference in what my doc referenced when he said ”I may metabolize the medicine differently than most” , and what is being suggested that I am “metabolizing too quickly overnight”?    How can that be if I feel this way all day and night too?   The reason I started taking at night is because the effects were so troublesome during the day.   I seriously doubt that I am metabolizing too fast.   If anything, I’d go with too slow.

 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

 

21 minutes ago, Windsor77 said:

Up until the past two weeks, it was like clockwork.  

 

When it comes to psychiatric drugs, it may take several weeks to adjust to 1 change.  That is why a 4 week hold after a dose reduction is suggested when tapering.  You have made several changes in the last 2 weeks and you are do not seem to be willing to be patient and give your brain a chance to make the adaptation that it needs.

 

Make several changes in quick succession makes it almost impossible to know if something is or isn't working.

 

The reason I made the suggestion to split your dose wasn't because of the rate of your metabolism, but the fact that you said you were getting shakiness.  My reasoning was that splitting the dose might help with that and might be something worth trying.

 

Keep it Simple, Slow and Stable

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by ChessieCat

[manymoretodays]

3 minutes ago, Windsor77 said:

Forgive me, but my daily notes are almost always the same, symptom wise, etc.   I will concede that I am rushing the dose titration, but I don’t understand how you could state no consistency in dose or time of dose.  Up until the past two weeks, it was like clockwork. 

The symptoms kept getting worse.  

 

Windsor77,

On this......I was referring just to the last several days......around the holiday.  It happens........inconsistencies.  The dosing inconsistencies have been going on since before the holidays.  The timing.......I applaud you on that.  Yet you have had inconsistencies on that even, in your most recent notes.

 

All I can say is, for now, and in the next couple of days........focus on something besides a parkinson like syndrome, or dystonia.  Reading your thread again........I recalled when, in early W/D from escitalopram.......the first year.......and escitalopram, being the stronger cousin to citalopram..........I noted feeling like a version of Audrey Hepburn.  I don't know if you are familiar with this actress, but in her later years she had some shakiness of the head and even a distinctive shaky type voice.

 

That all cleared.  With time.  Of course I don't know if I'll wind up with something like parkinson's disease someday.  It's possible.

And I was crabby as all get out for awhile.

 

I don't seem to have the obsessive tendencies or health anxiety issues that many have.......knock on wood.  Short term, once in awhile.......sure. 

 

Have you tried the heat wraps around your neck and shoulders?

 

Ask your doctor what he suspects, as far as how you are metabolizing.  I'm not clear on that.  Other than that he/she would send you for genetic testing, to find out if citalopram is one that you do metabolize differently.  Too fast, too slow......whether it's the drug of choice for you, etc.    And........only guessing........yet, then might look at the list of what your test results show and then keep you on citalopram indefinitely or change the dose,  and/or add on another drug, or take away the citalopram abruptly, and add another single drug.

 

So that's all I've got on that.

 

It's a tough time for many now........don't get pressured by the holidays, if you can help it.  Sheesh, you went shopping on Black Friday!!!  More applause.  I did do movies but not at a mall or shopping center.

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

 

 

I have no idea how you metabolize Windsor.

 

 

 

 

[Windsor77]

@manymoretodays  thanks for the notes and encouragement.   All in all though, I have seen these symptoms get worse since Feb-March when they got really noticeable.   That’s why I am ready for a change.  And I really do think that 5 months of gradually reducing citalopram would have gotten lessened,  not worsened my symptoms.   That is why I am postulating whether a differ not drug may help.  I read on SA extensively about a Prozac bridge.   Although that isn’t guaranteed to work.  And citalopram has a longer half life too.   One thing is for sure, I will keep trying until I find an answer, as either time or 

the correct med, or weaning off will find the solution to this puzzle.

@ChessieCat please give more specifics on splitting doses.  For example, I plan to take 5mg tonight.   Would I split that dose?

i guess not since I have recently reduced to 5 mg.    I’ll hold here for a couple weeks and see what happens.  If things get hairy, I can updose back to 6.5mg. If I need to stabilize.  

 

Thanks to all.  

 

 

[ChessieCat]

39 minutes ago, Windsor77 said:

Would I split that dose?

i guess not since I have recently reduced to 5 mg.    I’ll hold here for a couple weeks and see what happens.  

 

That's right.  Now would not be a good time to change your dose times.

 

39 minutes ago, Windsor77 said:

If things get hairy, I can updose back to 6.5mg

 

That is a huge increase.  That is overkill and could cause you to end up even worse.  Think of using a cannon to kill a fly.  More is not better when it comes to psychiatric drugs.  It is better to increase by a tiny amount if it is absolutely necessary.  If all you are feeling is discomfort but it is bearable then it is better to stay at the dose you are on.  Your goal is to reduce the drug because you think you are getting side effects from it.  The more often you change your dose erratically the harder it may be to stabilise.

 

I found that understanding that when we take the drug the brain adapts to getting the drug and then taking the drug away too quickly causes withdrawal symptoms.  If you have taken some of the drug away the brain adapts a bit.  If you then take too much then the brain has more adaptations to make.  Like a pendulum going from one extreme to the other.  The brain likes consistency.  The smaller the swing of the pendulum the happier the brain is.

 

The aim for the immediate future isn't to feel the best you have felt in the past, but to feel improvement from how you are currently feeling.

 

You need to learn to be patient.  P A T I E N C E ! ! !  I understand that it can be difficult.  We want to do something so we feel better.  Think of it this way, you are doing something.  You are giving your brain a stable environment and time.  Giving time is doing something.

[Windsor77]

Nicely put Chessie.  Thanks again for the support and advice.  I’ll hang in here for a bit.  

[ChessieCat]

4 minutes ago, Windsor77 said:

I’ll hang in here for a bit.

 

You've said that before.

[Windsor77]

Yeah, yeah.  I know. Patience is a virtue.   

[Carmie]

You just made me laugh Windsor, 

 

Yes, we definitely need patience in this process and sometimes we have to hold for a long time. As ChessieCat said holding is doing something, it’s very proactive as it helps our brains to heal. 

 

Brassmonkey wrote this about holding: 

 

“ During that waiting time people may think that they are not doing anything and want to get on with it. When, in fact, doing nothing is very proactive. It’s those little unfelt things that need to be finished before the next step can be taken. 

 

It’s letting the glue harden, the paint dry, the cement cure. The things that need to be complete before the path is safe to walk on again. If these details are ignored then they start to pile up and compound each other, then somewhere down the line the foundation slips out from under us and the whole thing collapses.” 

 

Slow and steady does it, with lots of holds. 

 

I see you accidentally skipped doses a couple of times. It might be a good idea to get one of those Monday to Sunday pill boxes if you don’t have one already. I’ve accidentally double dosed myself.

 

Sending sunshine your way☀️

 

 

[Windsor77]

@Carmie

Thanks for the kind words!!

 

[Windsor77]

As of day 10 on 5 mg, I am 99% healed.  Nearly all of the issues have subsided.  Those that are still here (morning twitches) are much much fewer and not nearly as severe.   The random twitching throughout the day continued to dissipate as the days have gone by.   I rarely think of ssri, and I am back to my hobbies, chores, and looking for new home projects.   It has been a total 180 degree turnaround.  And everything continues to get better.    

@ChessieCat

@Altostrata

@manymoretodays

thanks for your patience with me during my tumultuous times.    It is clear to me that I was HIGHLY over medicated.   

I plan to stay at 5mg for a while.  I have no reason to taper right now.  I haven’t felt this good since last October.  I am alcohol free and caffeine free. Thanks again to all of you!!!!!

[ChessieCat]

39 minutes ago, Windsor77 said:

I plan to stay at 5mg for a while.  I have no reason to taper right now.

 

Thanks for coming back to let us know that you have improved on the 5mg.  Please update your drug signature with ALL the recent dates and dose changes so that we can easily see your history at a glance.  Thank you.  Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature

 

Please be aware of the Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization    It will be important to learn and to use Non-drug techniques to cope during times of discomfort.

 

Please also read this topic:  are-we-there-yet-how-long-is-withdrawal-going-to-take

 

It would probably be a good idea to hold for at least 3 months before even thinking of tapering.  If you are unsure about whether to start, you could try a smaller than 10% reduction, eg 2.5% or 5%, to ensure that you are stable enough to commence tapering.  It's also a good idea to taper when things in your life are reasonably stable, however, there never seems a perfect time to start.  You might consider starting to taper at the start of summer.  Some members find the winter months can be more difficult.  There is some helpful information in this topic:  Before you begin tapering what you need to know

 

Please continue to update to let us know how you are going.

[Windsor77]

Update:

Over the past two days I have been getting the noticeable "heavy head" feeling associated with my reduction.  Not really brain zaps, but very close to how it used to feel when i'd miss a dose of sertraline or Lexapro.    It's difficult to explain, but I feel like the jitteriness has dramatically subsided, but the twitching and nerve/muscle jerks are getting more noticeable when I am waking up.  They are not very noticeable at all during the day when I am busy/working, etc.   Funny that they nearly subsided for the first 10 days or so.   Again - I am left wondering what is causing what.  Am I twitchy cause of the med or because of the withdrawal.  I am thinking it is the latter.

So overall, I don't feel as hyper-reflexed as I previously did, but the random muscle twitches are still quite annoying and perplexing.  Same with the hand and feet and head jerking which occur when I am first awaking. 

 

So it has take about 2.5 weeks for the reduction symptoms to show up.

@ChessieCat - what are your thoughts on this?   Do you have any reason to suggest upping my dose slightly?  I wouldn't call my symptoms any more severe than they were before, just the fuzzy head feeling is really the only difference.   My thoughts are to just stay at 5mg for a minimum of the three months as you suggested to stabilize.    But, as always, I am looking for any suggestions.

 

Thanks to all!

[ChessieCat]

I wrote this in my own Intro recently:

 

On 12/10/2018 at 4:02 PM, ChessieCat said:

Went to the movies yesterday (I, Claude Monet - so a relaxing movie, not activating) and towards the end of the 1.5 hours I experienced twitching / mild jerking in all four limbs.  I occasionally experience it at night but that's the first time it has happened when I've been fully awake.  the movie started at 3 pm and we had walked a fair way before going in to the cinema, so maybe after the exercise and then relaxing for that amount of time and in the dark my brain was thinking it was time for a sleep. 😔 Zzzzzzz

 

 

Regarding updosing.  We have to remember that our goal is to get off our drug or in some cases reduce the drug to the lowest effective dose.  If we continually updose when we get symptoms it will take us a very long time to achieve our goal.  And yoyoing our dose also increases the risk of destabilizing and/or sensitizing our nervous system.

 

It is important to understand and also accept that we are going to experience discomfort when getting off a drug.  And we need to learn and use  Non-drug techniques to get through these times of discomfort and not automatically think that we need to increase our dose.  This discomfort might only be mild or at times it might be worse.  This can be related to what external stresses we have in our life, even good stress, what we are doing or overdoing, if we have an illness, for women it can be different at various times during their monthly hormonal cycle.  So that is the first thing to assess.  What is happening in our life, or what has changed?  It has also be noticed that some members have greater difficulties at different doses.  So you might do 3 reductions and have none or only minor problems then you might make the same % reduction and have greater problems than previously.  When this happens you hold for longer.

 

The question I have asked myself when considering updosing.  Are my symptoms bearable?  There was at least 1 time when the answer was a definite No!  On several other occasions I have answered Yes and found that after a while the symptoms lessened.

 

And another thing to be aware of.  The type of withdrawal symptoms you experience can change during a taper.

[Windsor77]

Starting to definitely feel the “blahs”.  Is it bearable, yeah, I guess.   Is it pleasant.  No.  

 

Involuntary jerks/jolts in hands, feet and head when falling asleep or waking is back. 

Shakiness- tremor is back when exerting muscles.  It waxes and wanes in its noticeability.  

My support is telling me to find another drug to stabilize myself on.   Dystonia and the physical side effects are leading me to agree, but I am going to hang in at my current dose for at least another month or two.    I guess we are not going to get through this without discomfort. 

 

[Gridley]

It's better to taper the drug you're on rather than switch to another drug.  There is going to be some discomfort while tapering.  

 

Dropping from 7.0mg to 5.0 is more than the 10%/every 4 weeks maximum we recommend.  You might consider smaller drops, especially as you get down to lower doses.

 

The symptoms you list are common withdrawal symptoms.

 

tremors-shaking-body-vibration-internal-trembling

 

[Windsor77]

@Gridley - thanks. I have read that post many many times for consolation and support.   Unfortunately, not many have had this go away completely.   And, as I have mentioned, I am still desirous to get a clean bill from a neurologist, but I have not done so yet.   

The drop was fast, yes.  I had 2 good weeks and now it’s back, along with the brain fog/blahs.   

If I knew that I could go back to my lexapro right now and have these symptoms cease, I would do so immediately.  But alas, I cannot know.  

 

You see- living in manageable misery is fine if I were alone.  I could go to work, then go home and sleep the time away.  That doesn’t work when I have a family who needs me to be my normal cheerful, funny, active self.  I for one felt fantastic on lexapro.  But I cannot go back.  I’m trapped.  If I try to go back, I’ll make things worse.  If I quit ct, I’ll make things worse, and if I stay steady at 5 mg until god knows when, I’ll eek by with no energy, drive, enjoyment, etc.   

God I sound like a depressed person.  Which I never was, funnily, until I upset my Apple cart back in October.  

As I mentioned- my home support thinks I need to try a new drug at a normal therapeutic dose.  Thinking that what I am going through is a result of depriving myself of a normal dose.    

Maybe what I was feeling on lexapro was artificial, but I hadn’t a physical symptom like this in my life until I monkeyed with the works.  Now- by CNS is broken. With no healing in sight.  

Rant over. 

[Windsor77]

Forgot to mention the slight rocking back and forth that my torso does when sitting in certain positions. 

[Gridley]

Sorry you're feeling trapped.  If you feel you need a new drug, that's of course your decision, though one we wouldn't recommend.  There's still the option of slowly tapering down the Citalopram and being off.  I know that's a long haul.  Your CNS isn't broken, just destabilized.  It can return to homeostasis.  That too is a long haul.   That is the situation we all unfortunately find ourselves in.

[Windsor77]

Yup.  No way out but up unfortunately. 

[Windsor77]

@ChessieCat

@Gridley

@Altostrata

 

I feel some pretty strong efextoscoming from my last reduction. I’d like to consider upping the dose tonight.  Any ideas on how much? 

 

i am experiencing more intense tremor.  Flu-like Head sensations and the beginning of some neuro emotions.  

 

Any advise is appreciated. 

[Windsor77]

Also- many a moderator on this site has mentioned switching drugs when symptoms weren’t tolerable.   Mine have gotten worse since I started citalopram.   Is that not a causal connection?  Or is my rapid taper the culprit?  In that case, once again, I beg the question, how much could I safely updose to stabilize?  Or should I hang here for 3 more weeks to try to stabilize?