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Windsor77

Windsor77: Celexa - it's time for peace

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Windsor77

Hello Window!   Not sure how or why it happened, but I am in a fantastic window.  It hit me Saturday late, then more on Sunday, and I feel great.   Barely any shakes.    Can the shakes be part of the withdrawal and not due to the citalopram!?!?!   I didn’t even consider that. 

I’ve been operating under the assumption that the shakiness was from the presence of the drug, not the withdrawal from lack of lexapro from 11 months ago. 

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ChessieCat
9 hours ago, Windsor77 said:

Can the shakes be part of the withdrawal and not due to the citalopram!?!?!

 

Simple answer.  We don't know.  Sorry.

 

On 9/18/2018 at 3:38 AM, Windsor77 said:

Still wishing I could taper the citalopram faster, since I’ve only been on this for 3-4 months.

 

You've only been in this drug a short while, but it only takes about 1 month for the brain to adapt.  If you didn't have a history of psychiatric drug use you might have been able to taper faster than 10% every four weeks.

 

On 9/17/2018 at 10:13 AM, ChessieCat said:

You could try splitting your dose and taking it twice daily.

 

This is still any option.

 

Just a thought.  You did made a dose time change recently.  That may have caused your symptoms to wax and wane differently to what they had been doing.

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Windsor77

One year anniversary coming soon for CT of Lexapro.  Currently on 8mg of Celexa.    Feeling pretty good.  I had a couple bad bouts of anxiety, each coinciding with a reduction of .2mg.  But I've adjusted to the reductions and for the past week, 90% of my days, I don't even think about the withdrawal or worry.   Let's hope that it stays this way as the reduction moves forward.   I am now totally off of caffeine, and my alcohol consumption has been reduced dramatically as well.    One day at a time.  Still feeling some minor shakiness/tremor which is positional.  It ceases when I change the position of my arm.    Overall feeling good.  Hope you all are too.

 

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Carmie
12 hours ago, Windsor77 said:

One year anniversary coming soon for CT of Lexapro.  Currently on 8mg of Celexa.    Feeling pretty good.  I had a couple bad bouts of anxiety, each coinciding with a reduction of .2mg.  But I've adjusted to the reductions and for the past week, 90% of my days, I don't even think about the withdrawal or worry.   Let's hope that it stays this way as the reduction moves forward.   I am now totally off of caffeine, and my alcohol consumption has been reduced dramatically as well.    One day at a time.  Still feeling some minor shakiness/tremor which is positional.  It ceases when I change the position of my arm.    Overall feeling good.  Hope you all are too.

 

 

Well done Windsor, 

 

Im glad you’re doing so well. Must be great when you hardly think about withdrawals. 

 

Yes, it’s definitely a day at a time but I’m so happy it’s not too much of a struggle for you at the moment and I wish you all the best for your continued tapering 💚

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Windsor77

Dealing with a mild wave for the past 2-3 days.  Just getting over it.  Past weeks were 90% symptom free, both physical and mental.  Shakiness is back a bit.  Feeling a bit of the jerks when I am trying to fall asleep.  And the random muscle twitches are back for a visit.  Then the worry about the symptoms starts.  Definitely seeing the pattern.  These waves occur each time I reduce.  Even .2mg.  It really is quite annoying, but I must say that each is less severe than the previous one.  I’m riding through it.   I am just over 1 year from ct of Lexapro and I am on 7.4mg of citalopram.   I won’t lie.  There are times when I am tired and I just feel like going back to another ssri to get rid of the feelings and sensations when the waves come.   I just want to be over the cycle.   I’m try to talk myself into going back to citalopram.  Then I think of what the long term end result will be.  I’ll just end up having to taper eventually, so I’m sticking with it.  Only tapering 2.6mg doesn’t feel like a lot has been accomplished though.  But when the windows are here, I feel good, and it seems each lasts a little longer than the rest.    

Hope all of you are staying strong.

 

Keep pushing through, it gets better!

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ChessieCat

It's helpful to think about how much you have reduced, instead of what you still have left to get off.  Please update your drug signature.  Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature

 

magnesium 1 daily  of 250mg tablet

 

Magnesium works better if taken several times during the day instead of once a day.

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Windsor77

This just in.  Waves suck.  I added a B complex last week and I felt more energy with it.  Now I’m wondering if it is why my nervous system is so amped up.  Most of my jerks and twitching/spasms had subsided before this.   Lethargic.   Yuck. 

 

Lesson- listen to moderators.  Don’t take multi supplements. It’s impossible to pinpoint what works and what doesn’t. 

 

I am nearly off of alcohol.  I have had 2 small drinks in the last week.  Totally off of caffeine.  Hanging in there.  At least I am making positive changes while dealing with the WD.   

I recent ply picked up some magnesium citrate in pill form. I will try these once my current supply runs out.  

Any thought or advice on switching to that?

 

Thanks to all!

 

 

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ChessieCat
5 hours ago, Windsor77 said:

I recent ply picked up some magnesium citrate in pill form. I will try these once my current supply runs out.  

Any thought or advice on switching to that?

 

If you are concerned about changing the form of the magnesium you could take half and half first and then all new.  If you can't halve them, you could try alternating them.

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manymoretodays
On 10/26/2018 at 6:49 PM, Windsor77 said:

Dealing with a mild wave for the past 2-3 days.  Just getting over it.  Past weeks were 90% symptom free, both physical and mental.  Shakiness is back a bit.  Feeling a bit of the jerks when I am trying to fall asleep.  And the random muscle twitches are back for a visit.  Then the worry about the symptoms starts.  Definitely seeing the pattern.  These waves occur each time I reduce.  Even .2mg.  It really is quite annoying, but I must say that each is less severe than the previous one.  I’m riding through it.   I am just over 1 year from ct of Lexapro and I am on 7.4mg of citalopram.   I won’t lie.  There are times when I am tired and I just feel like going back to another ssri to get rid of the feelings and sensations when the waves come.   I just want to be over the cycle.   I’m try to talk myself into going back to citalopram.  Then I think of what the long term end result will be.  I’ll just end up having to taper eventually, so I’m sticking with it.  Only tapering 2.6mg doesn’t feel like a lot has been accomplished though.  But when the windows are here, I feel good, and it seems each lasts a little longer than the rest.    

Hope all of you are staying strong.

 

Keep pushing through, it gets better!

 

On 10/28/2018 at 8:44 AM, Windsor77 said:

I recent ply picked up some magnesium citrate in pill form. I will try these once my current supply runs out.  

Any thought or advice on switching to that?

 

Hi Windsor,

I just moved a topic you had started in tapering to the 5-HTP topic in symptoms and selfcare.  So thought I should check on your progress too.

 

I don't think you will find the healing in another substance to be honest.  It does seem that you may be searching.

It looks like you have averaged about a 5% drop/month in your citalopram and you are down 26% from your starting dosage of 10 mg.  This came after you had cut your dose in half, I believe.  So you have accomplished a lot!  This is good.  Hurrying up the taper, I believe, might very well lead to worsening of W/D symptoms.

 

"I’m try to talk myself into going back to citalopram"  Is this a typo?  You ARE on citalopram.  I'm guessing you were meaning escitalopram(Lexapro)?

As far as the switching to magnesium citrate goes........what are you currently taking?  And I think ChessieCats advice is good.  I use a magnesium citrate capsule that I dissolve in a liter of water.  It's 500 mg of Magnesium(as citrate oxide).  I usually only put in 1/2 of the capsule contents.  And use it rarely.  I've gotten great results from Epsom salt baths.  Magnesium Sulfate.  Very calming.  I do okay now without any form of Magnesium some days........like when I travel and such.  I usually don't go more than a couple days though without some form of Magnesium though.

Are you keeping records at all, or journaling off line, as to when you make changes.  Like your Magnesium.  And cutting down or off alcohol or caffiene.   You could note tapering drops too.  It's a good way to pick up on patterns......and then you know what might cause what.......and even how long W/D symptoms might last after a taper.  And then it is good evidence that you do indeed have windows or better days overall.  So, you can track more or less, what helps and what doesn't help.

I still use my trusty old fashioned calendar with boxes for each day.  And just briefly note stuff down.  Even situations.  And things like when the time changes this Sunday are on it too.  And then I journal a lot free form and write about stuff too.  It's one of my things I like to do, I suppose.  Write.

 

S'okay.  All for now.

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

Oh, p.s.  Yup, me as well........I used to think for sure I had a chronic illness of some type or other.  Not so much now.  So I get that.  So many illnesses today are diagnosis of exclusion though too.......meaning they rule out illnesses, that might have a very objective(a lab test or x-ray type thing) finding........and then tell you ......you instead have this or that.  From a cluster of symptoms.  So then one winds up getting treated for symptoms only anyway........not really ever healing.  Or curing.   I don't know.......I hope that makes sense.  And that's just my 2 cents, or opinion.  I like being well now......or well enough.

 

 

Edited by manymoretodays

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Windsor77

I appreciate it MMT.  Your words are much needed and appreciated. 

You are correct.  That was a typo. I am rationalizing and probably dreaming that I will lose the current symptoms if I go back to the one med that worked for me.  

 

I am desirous to expedite this.  I also want to try CBD gum.  I will probably try one or two pieces of that to see if there is any effect.   I take my citalopram dose at 8-9pm nightly, and I’m hoping one or two days of chewing the gum in the am won’t cause any horrible adverse effects.  Gonna test this theory this weekend.  I will report back. 

I am a creature of routine.  So I tend to keep my records mentally.  I tried a b complex for a week and it worked great for a few days.   Then I started getting more twitches and feeling shaky.  So I quit and now I’m feeling a little better. 

Just can’t face a 2020 timeline to get off of 7.2mg.  Then I may have several years of symptoms after that.   Makes ripping the band aid off now seem much more interesting.   I can then safely try 5htp, Sam-e, gaba, etc.   

The symptoms simply cannot get worse than they have gotten in the past year.      

 

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ChessieCat
4 hours ago, Windsor77 said:

Just can’t face a 2020 timeline to get off of 7.2mg.

 

I'm on 6mg of Pristiq and won't be off until 2020.  I was hoping to be off 1 year ago, but realised that is it better to go slowly.

 

4 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

I don't think you will find the healing in another substance to be honest.  It does seem that you may be searching.

 

I agree with MMT's comment.  Other substances have their own issues.  I suggest you carefully research everything you are considering.

 

4 hours ago, Windsor77 said:

I can then safely try 5htp, Sam-e, gaba, etc.

 

Safely?  You seem to have a gung-ho attitude towards this.

 

I think you are looking for a magic cure.  Sorry, but there are none.  This site has been in existence since 2011 and Altostrata has done much research and hasn't found one.  If she had, she would be telling everyone all about it and this site wouldn't need to continue.  However, there is good evidence that doing a slow and careful taper works.

 

There are many discussion topics on this site.  I like to use google and add survivingantidepressants.org to the search term.

 

Edited by ChessieCat

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Windsor77
15 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

 

I'm on 6mg of Pristiq and won't be off until 2020.  I was hoping to be off 1 year ago, but realised that is it better to go slowly.

 

 

I agree with MMT's comment.  Other substances have their own issues.  I suggest you carefully research everything you are considering.

 

 

Safely?  You seem to have a gung-ho attitude towards this.

 

I think you are looking for a magic cure.  Sorry, but there are none.  This site has been in existence since 2011 and Altostrata has done much research and hasn't found one.  If she had, she would be telling everyone all about it and this site wouldn't need to continue.  However, there is good evidence that doing a slow and careful taper works.

 

There are many discussion topics on this site.  I like to use google and add survivingantidepressants.org to the search term.

 

What I meant by safely it that I won’t risk serotonin issues by mixing with ssri.  

I am gung ho.   I am tired of feeling like sh*t.  I will try anything.  And slow misery isn’t better than the alternative.  Talk about protracted symptoms.   

 

 

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Windsor77

Anyone use nascent iodine to detox?  Anyone have experience with trying to clear the fluoride from the SSRIs?

 

Just curious.

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ChessieCat

When it comes to recovery from psychiatric drugs, time is the healer.  The brain needs a chance to regain homeostasis.

 

Patience and acceptence, both very hard things, are essential.

 

iodine-anyone

 

On 3/30/2012 at 5:21 AM, Altostrata said:

Although alternative healers and integrative doctors mean well, purification techniques tend to put additional stress on the body -- which people having withdrawal symptoms do not need -- and are based on the idea that once you get the demon out of the body, your problem will be solved.

 

On 6/16/2011 at 1:28 AM, Altostrata said:

My belief is that, our bodies and nervous systems being under so much stress from withdrawal, detoxing the liver or any other ritual of purification only adds further stress and doesn't do anything positive for proper withdrawal. (Liver detox was developed for serious, identifiable heavy metal poisoning.) Liver cleansing is one of those things naturopathic medicine routinely recommends for all kinds of ills, with very little evidence it helps any of them. I do not think it's appropriate for withdrawal syndrome.

 

 

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Windsor77

Another window started last Friday the 2nd.   Clear headed. Minimal fatigue, (walked 17 miles in 4 days) and overall feeling as close to normal as I can.   Tapered to 7mg.  Aside from the random muscle fatigue, I feel fine.   These windows and waves are happening pretty close together.    Not sure why.    Oh well.  I’ll enjoy it while it lasts.   

 

Oh- I also stopped the magnesium which I belie had a direct correlation to my extreme fatigue ceasing.   Within 1.5 days of stopping my muscles felt 75 percent better.    Too much can cause muscle fatigue, or so I have read.    For now minimal shakes and noticeabley less muscle jerks when falling asleep.  

If I were told today that this is where I recover to, I’d be ok with it.  So that says a lot about how I’m doing. 

Hang in there everyone.  

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Windsor77

So much for that window.   Waves of muscle fatigue in arms and legs are back, along with some shakiness.  

Im fed up.  Gonna ask to switch to equivalent dose of escitalopram. 

No adrenaline, palpitations, or ruminations.   

 

Thoughts are welcome. 

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Windsor77

I think I’m just gonna stop the celexa for a week to see what happens..  I know how ridiculous this sounds to the moderators.  They have seen this too many times.  I may be back on the site complaining about a crash.   But I have to know whether the physical symptoms are due to the medicine or the withdrawal.   It is to the point of absurdity. 

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manymoretodays

Hi Windsor.

Hey, tell me about the windows that I saw above.  Did the shaking stop then?  And what other physical symptoms?

Would you be willing to do some daily drug and symptom logs before going "drastic". Note the time on the left.  Then.  Drug, dosage, symptoms(describe, even rate them) on the right.  Throughout the whole 24 hour period.  Include supplements and sleep.  Mealtimes.  Perhaps a bit about what you are eating and when.

This simple format helps so much.

 

I'm speculating that you might be going a bit fast.  As I see you are all the way down to 7.0 mg of your citalopram now.  Seems you were just on 8.6 mg or 8 mg, not too long ago.  How much are you dropping by each month or 6 weeks......percentage down from your present dose(at the time of calculations)?

 

If I were you I'd reconsider.

Try the notes/logs though.  I'm interested to see.  Keep it simple in reporting them here.

Here's the link too:  Daily drug and symptom logs

 

Do them on paper first and then post here.  A day.  A couple days even better.

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

Edited by manymoretodays

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Windsor77

MMT,

During the window above- the shakiness was very mild, almost non existent.  

First let me define the shakiness.  I am talking about the internal feeling of hyper sensitive nerves/reflexes.  If I “flex” my muscles and hold, they are shaky, similar to the feeling after one would work out strenuously.  I would not call this what I think of as tremor, as I sit and lay perfectly still.  

The weakness/fatigue feelings are in my quadriceps and arms.  Going up a few steps and my legs burn and feel tired.   My arms the same.    I don’t feel like I cannot do the same things, just that my muscles are almost instantly tired and burning.  Weird feeling in my forearms. 

 

If anything I am a creature of habit.  Days start like this:

Minor hand or leg jerks when waking up

Shower/ take fish oil

Get to work - one decaf coffee

Vanilla core power protein shake

16oz smart water

hot cinnamon apple tea

typically eat high protein meals

Another decaf maybe

Normal dinner

More water. 

Take citalopram at bedtime. 

Muscles feel more tired and weak by end of day

If I have a beer or two when I am in a window I have no issues.  If during a wave, it intensifies the feelings. 

I’ve been using the 2.5 percent per week calculator.   I’m not holding for 3 weeks though. 

Mentally- I don’t have any rumination, cloudy head, etc.  no adrenaline or palpitations.  

Just these nagging feelings of fatigue. 

 

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Windsor77

I almost feel like I have been poisoned.....no joking intended. Could there be toxicity to this citalopram?

 

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manymoretodays

Hey.  Well, yes.......I just looked at some medical definitions of toxicity.  The important thing about using that term, to remember, is, that de-toxes.......as a whole.......are NOT effective in ridding one of withdrawal symptoms.

 

And okay.....good, great definitions of your symptoms.

Give me a bit more though......in the simpler format for drugs/symptoms, supplements, eating/food, and sleep.  Like this:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

 

We might find there is something else you might benefit from altering just a bit.  I noticed the protein shakes.  And I do a little bit of bone broth now in my morning blender concoction.  When I first arrived though.......the state I was in........I did find I had to alter some things, that had always worked well for me.  I mean maybe something will stand out.  Do you see what I'm saying?  So.....I'm good if you add in your foods.  Rating symptoms that occur and then reoccur helps too.

 

2 hours ago, Windsor77 said:

I’ve been using the 2.5 percent per week calculator.   I’m not holding for 3 weeks though. 

So.  Are you doing the brassmonkeyslide method?  Once you get to the end of 4 weeks(in which over the 4 week period you've reduced 10%, in total, from your starting dose).  Then a hold for 2 weeks.  Then you recalculate 10% off your present dose.  And do again......only you just go down by 2.5%, each week, for 4 weeks.

It's in the first link here:  The Brassmonkey Slide Method

 

Just HOLD right now.  And for the next couple of days while you do some notes(as described above) and we sort out your tapering plan.  I mean it may be that a HOLD and then just doing 1.25 % works better, for a 5% decrease each month. 

Being a creature of habit may be great, in this whole tapering regard.  And you might notice something objectively with seeing the notes here, once you have a couple of days to post.  Or I might, or one of the other mods.

 

Windsor, I had symptoms like yours, those you have noted here on your journal/introduction.  And most, if not all........are better now.  We really encourage a nice, slow taper.......just so you can keep doing all that you do, while in the process of it.  I mean if you jump off......or make a drastic change........there's no telling how it might go.  Better to stay in your life, and living your life, and getting to the point where.......hey.......you are still tapering.........but doing pretty great!  Do you follow?

 

Okie doke.  Hope that helps.

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

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Windsor77

6:30- wake up.  Random jerks of thumb muscles and legs. Mild morning anxiety. 

7:20- one cup decaf coffee and 1500 mg fish oil

8:00- one cup apple cinnamon tea and protein shake

8-12 - at work.  No anxiety, rumination, etc. random minor muscle twitches. 

12pm - lunch- cheeseburger and onion rings- 20oz of Smart Water and 12 oz of carbonated water- no flavoring

2pm- hot tea again

3pm- 20 oz of water again. 

4pm- minor muscle twitching around elbows and knees. Minor muscle fatigue, not as noticeable yet today. 

 

More to come. 

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Windsor77

5:30 dinner.  More hot tea. 12oz carbonated water. 

6:30-8 - a little jumpy feeling in legs

8:45- take 7mg liquid dose citalopram. 

9:15-Sleep- more noticeable muscle random muscle twitches. 

 

6:30am - wake up- Minor twitching- same symptoms as yesterday.  Repeat. 

 

My doc once said I either have too much or too little serotonin.   I think it’s too much.    

These symptoms began following my ct from lexapro last Oct, but not until I started taking Zoloft 100mg, and then not until Jan /Feb.   I halved my dose then and it got a little better.  Then I switched to celexa in late May.    I have had a few short weeks where this wasn’t as prominent, but it’s almost always there.  So my theory is that I’m prolonging these symptoms by continuing to over activate my CNS.   I really want to try to stop totally or halve the dose, or something to try to find relief. 

All other thoughts and comments are welcome. 

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Windsor77

My doc also said that he believes that I should undergo genetic tests to determine if I have an issue metabolizing these drugs.    I think this is a stretch.   

Lexapro did not make me feel the shaky reflexes or muscle twitches, not at all.  Zoloft gave me the muscle twitches in the same way that celexa is now doing, but not as often.  

 

Its either switch back to lexapro, or quit totally.  I am tired of having to spend every day convincing myself that these symptoms are just the drugs, or are the withdrawal.    

 

 

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manymoretodays
3 hours ago, Windsor77 said:

My doc once said I either have too much or too little serotonin.   I think it’s too much.    

 

Hi Windsor,

Is this your present prescribing doc?  I don't know if you have seen this:

Again, chemical imbalance is a myth. Stop the lies please.

^ from "Read this first"  right at the top of the home page.

29 minutes ago, Windsor77 said:

My doc also said that he believes that I should undergo genetic tests to determine if I have an issue metabolizing these drugs.    I think this is a stretch.   

Lexapro did not make me feel the shaky reflexes or muscle twitches, not at all.  Zoloft gave me the muscle twitches in the same way that celexa is now doing, but not as often.  

 

Its either switch back to lexapro, or quit totally.  I am tired of having to spend every day convincing myself that these symptoms are just the drugs, or are the withdrawal.    

 

 

And here's what we've got on Genetic testing:"Personalized medicine",.......

3 hours ago, Windsor77 said:

 I have had a few short weeks where this wasn’t as prominent, but it’s almost always there.  So my theory is that I’m prolonging these symptoms by continuing to over activate my CNS.   I really want to try to stop totally or halve the dose, or something to try to find relief. 

 

And I know you'd like to find relief as well.  I'd suggest, for today perhaps.......just review a bit.  Go back to page one and look at some of the introductory links that Gridley gave you.  And some of the other suggestions along the way that you may not have tried yet......and consider your options, with tapering.

 

Can you update your signature as well?  Account settings: update signature

I see that in July 2018, you started your taper down from 10 mg of citalopram.  And you are now on 7 mg.  Perhaps just make note of when/if you switched formulations(if you have, like did you go from tablet to liquid?), and then some dates with your decreases(tapers as well).  Best to just note the dose in mg in your signature.

 

I'm looking at your notes.  You are not forgotten or completely on your own here.  I just have not come up with anything from them myself, to suggest, as yet.

Okay.  And Best Windsor77.

 

Love, peace, healing, and recovery(and soon for Windsor B))

mmt

Edited by manymoretodays
spelling, grammar

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Windsor77

Thx. 

I started 10 mg citalopram from 50mg sertraline on 5/30/18.  I switched to liquid during the 2nd week of July. 

I started with 10% reductions on the taper.  Then went to the modified brass monkey taper of 2.5% per week with no rest weeks.   

 

I have none of the emotional symptoms of rumination, sadness, etc. maybe some mild anhedonia, but nothing horrible.  The only think perpetuating my worry is the constant CNS symptoms.  Which weren’t present when I first quit lexapro.   That presented with the intro of sertraline and still continue.  

 

 I appreciate your help and counsel, but there really is nothing there but either the meds or PAWS to explain.  So I guess now I go to a neurologist and spend $500-$1000 for office visits and imaging to see if I have a neurological problem.  Which is a waste of time. 

 

Serotonin syndrome symptom lists describe what I’m going through, but so does the the list of top side effects of citalopram. So too does the list for SSRI discontinuation syndrome.  

 

So which is it!??

 

Edited by ChessieCat
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jozeff

Hi Windsor,

 

Nice to meet you. Not the best place to meet but still ...

 

I can feel your pain and doubt. I have been having a rough time with citalopram myself for the last 2 years. 

 

It's so hard to determine if it's WD, nerve damage, returning depression or whatever. 

I felt pretty ok when on 25 mg citalopram but when I started tapering in April everything collapsed a bit.

 

I cannot advise you about your symptoms. All I can say is that I have a lot of symptoms myself and they keep surprising me. I hope you can clear things out for yourself!

 

I wish you all the best!

 

Happy healing.

 

 

Jozeff

 

 

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Windsor77
4 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

 

And here's what we've got on Genetic testing:"Personalized medicine",.......

After reading through this post, I am wondering whether it wasn’t coincidence that I felt no symptoms way back in July when I skipped doses for a couple of days. 

 

If you read my history, you’ll find my problems started when I inadvertently was taking two meds and one otc supplement that all use CYP2C19.     

I wonder......

Having accidentally done it many times, skipping a couple days isn’t too risky. 

 

I’ll report back. 

 

 

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manymoretodays

Yah, I remember.  The PPI, Lexapro/escitalopram, and grapefruit juice.  This from the top of my head.

Then somewhere though......you reported the "shaky" symptoms did not even start until 5 mos or so off the Lexapro.  Am I missing some other CNS symptoms somewhere?

.......so now you are on 7.0 mg citalopram with some windows. 

 

A lesser dose, a cautious taper........might be a better option.

I mean you have had a few ideas it seems, this past week.......wanting to go back on Lexapro, and now going cold turkey......more or less. 

It's a risk I think.......if you want to whack things up more down the road, I mean.......that's what I see potentially.

 

We don't always see the W/D stuff until later.  If I was correct with the 5 months off Lexapro.......was when I think you recollected that symptoms hit........  That kind of confirms that possibility that there might have been some W/D to explain the symptoms too.

 

Yah....the CYP stuff too.  Your genetics in metabolizing now.   Like I said......you might feel better once you get even lower, with the citalopram.  Yet, we can't or at least I can't discount W/D IS a factor as well.

 

I'm your CNS speaking now.  "Go easy on me Windsor!"

Something to think about.......

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Why taper by 10% of my dose

take a look, especially just the first post there......maybe that will help you decide

 

Edited by manymoretodays
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ChessieCat
2 minutes ago, manymoretodays said:

 

I'm your CNS speaking now.  "Go easy on me Windsor!"

 

 

Each time a person makes changes (eg:  CT, tapers too fast, changes their drug, or bounces their doses up and down) their Central Nervous System gets a little more destabilised.  It's all cumulative.

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ChessieCat

We strongly encourage members to learn use non drug coping techniques to help get through uncomfortable times.  They are also useful for life in general.

 

Check out Claire Weekes.  She was a doctor who suffered from anxiety and learned and taught ways of coping.  There are videos available on YouTube.

 

Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

 

I suggest you check out these links and gather some tools:

 

Audio:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)

Non-drug techniques to cope

 

dealing-with-emotional-spirals

 

Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) for anxiety, depression

 

CBT Course:  An Introductory Self-Help Course in Cognitive Behaviour Therapy

Resources:  Centre for Clinical Interventions (PDF modules that you can work through, eg:  Depression, Distress Intolerance, Health Anxiety, Low Self-Esteem, Panic Attacks, Perfectionism, Procrastination, Social Anxiety, Worrying)
 

"AAF: Acknowledge, Accept, Float.  It's what you have to do when nothing else works, and can be a very powerful tool in coping with anxiety.  The neuroemotional anxiety many of us feel during WD is directly caused by the drugs and their chemical reactions in the brain.  Making it so there is nothing we can do about them.  They won't respond to other drugs, relaxation techniques and the like.  They do, however, react very well to being ignored.  That's the concept behind AAF.  Acknowledge, get to know the feeling involved, explore them.  Accept, These feelings are a part of you and they aren't going anywhere fast. Float, let the feeling float off as you get on with your life as best as you can.  It's a well documented fact that the more you feed in to anxiety the worse it gets.  What starts as generalized neuroemotinal anxiety can be easily blown into a full fledged panic attack just by thinking about it.

 

I often liken it to an unwanted house guest.  At first you talk to them, have conversations, communicate with them.  After a while you figure out that they aren't leaving and there is nothing you can do to get rid of them.  So you go on about your day, working around them until they get bored and leave.

 

It can take some practice, but AAF really does work.  I hope you give it a try."

 

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Windsor77

I skipped my dose of 7mg citalopram last evening.

 

6:30am - 11am -  1 cup decaf coffee.  1 protein shake.   NO twitching or shakes  No hyperreflexia feeling.  NONE whatsoever.   

 

Coincidence?  Psychosomatic?  CYP related? 

 

Exact same thing that happened back in July when I went every other day for a week.   Literally, like an on/off switch.   I am not pretending that in the coming days that the usual withdrawal stuff won't occur, brain zaps, etc. but I am not exaggerating.  The shaky muscles and jittery feelings are gone.

 

What should I do next?    halve dose, take 7mg tonight and skip again?   I know that is not the recommended method, but what am I supposed to do?  I know that the issues accumulate.  How can I reconcile the fact that the citalopram is likely creating these symptoms?   Switch over to Lexapro?

 

Let me know your thoughts.

 

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manymoretodays

Oh Windsor,

It's possible, you might be having some placebo type effect,

1 hour ago, Windsor77 said:

Coincidence?  Psychosomatic?  CYP related? 

 

based on your expectations.  As the dropped dose.....may in actuality take much longer than 24 hours, to register the change, in your plasma levels.  To learn more about this......go on back to the why taper by 10% link, and look at some of the links in the first post.  You probably still have a fair amount of citalopram in your system.

 

As far as CYP goes, you are not having conflicts anymore, as far as that goes........between different drugs and grapefruit juice, and then altering your ultimate absorption, or level of the drug in your plasma.  Your citalopram is just being metabolized by the enzymes.  Whether your enzyme system is different or not........I mean that's what those genetic tests try to determine, again, the link I gave you above will give you more on this.  And then you could even, as I just did, look it on up, citalopram.......I found one journal article that laid out just how it is metabolized.  So that really hasn't changed much......now, with one skipped dose.

 

Nor do we want you to create further havoc on your CNS.  You may just be having another window.  Like you have reported before.

1 hour ago, Windsor77 said:

What should I do next?    halve dose, take 7mg tonight and skip again?   I know that is not the recommended method, but what am I supposed to do?  I know that the issues accumulate.  How can I reconcile the fact that the citalopram is likely creating these symptoms?   Switch over to Lexapro?

I've given you my opinion here on this already.  None of the above.  Get back on your regular dosing schedule and HOLD for a bit longer.  You last tapered on October 2nd?  And you have been doing a microdose brassmonkey slide.  If you want help to work out how, to do this........we could help with that.  I left you more links on that above as well.  I'm not clear on why you think the citalopram, is directly causing the symptoms.  Please consider that,  it might be more basic W/D symptoms that you are experiencing.  I mean I know it can be rough......but as yet........we just don't have any quick fixes, other than non-drug coping, and the hope that more prescribers will begin to carefully taper their patients off these medications.  Because then, maybe what is happening with you now, as far as symptoms go, could be prevented.  That's the hope for the future.

 

On 11/13/2018 at 9:28 AM, manymoretodays said:

Can you update your signature as well?  Account settings: update signature

I see that in July 2018, you started your taper down from 10 mg of citalopram.  And you are now on 7 mg.  Perhaps just make note of when/if you switched formulations(if you have, like did you go from tablet to liquid?), and then some dates, with your decreases(tapers as well).  Best to just note the dose in mg in your signature.

Are you up to trying some of the non-drug coping?  ChessieCat gave you a nice package of ideas, and stuff you can try.  This happens to many here Windsor......this wanting more of a absolute answer, and then more immediate cure.  Getting some new coping skills going will really help now!  

 

  I don't think you will find your answer in another drug or medication, or going on back to the Lexapro, or jumping off the citalopram too quickly.......that's my best guess on that.  Backed by some observations here.

 

Have a nice day Windsor.  The best one that you can.

 

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Edited by manymoretodays
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Windsor77

I practice many of the non drug coping.  Epsom baths, meditation, etc.  Really, my only issue is the CNS symptoms I mentioned previously.  

 

if my

6 minutes ago, manymoretodays said:

Oh Windsor,

It's possible, you might be having some placebo type effect,

based on your expectations.  As the dropped dose.....may in actuality take much longer than 24 hours, to register the change, in your plasma levels.  To learn more about this......go on back to the why taper by 10% and look at some of the links in the first post.

 

As far as CYP goes, you are not having conflicts anymore, as far as that goes........between different drugs and grapefruit juice, and then altering your ultimate absorption or level of the drug in your plasma.  Your citalopram is just being metabolized by the enzymes.  Whether your enzyme system is different or not........I mean that's what those genetic tests try to determine, again, the link I gave you above will give you more on this.  And then you could even, as I just did, look it on up, citalopram.......I found one journal article that laid out just how it is metabolized.  So that really hasn't changed much......now, with one skipped dose.

 

Nor do we want you to create further havoc on your CNS.  You may just be having another window.  Like you have reported before.

I've given you my opinion here on this already.  None of the above.  Get back on your regular dosing schedule and HOLD for a bit longer.  You last tapered on October 2nd?  And you have been doing a microdose brassmonkey slide.  If you want help to work out how, to do this........we could help with that.  I left you more links on that above as well.  I'm not clear on why you think the citalopram, is directly causing the symptoms.  Please consider that,  it might be more basic W/D symptoms that you are experiencing.  I mean I know it can be rough......but as yet........we just don't have any quick fixes, other than non-drug coping, and the hope that more prescribers will begin to carefully taper their patients off these medications.

 

Are you up to trying some of the non-drug coping?  ChessieCat gave you a nice package of ideas, and stuff you can try.  This happens to many here Windsor......this wanting more of a absolute answer, and then more immediate cure.  Getting some new coping skills going will really help now!   And of course I'm not going to discourage from further testing if that's what feels best to you now. 

Have a nice day Windsor.  The best one that you can.

 

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

I practice many of the non drug coping.  Epsom baths, meditation, etc.  Really, my only issue is the CNS symptoms I mentioned previously.  

 

If I took my last dose at 8:45pm, which is 40 hours ago, my levels wouldn’t have reduced??   

 

I thought that the half life was about 36 hours.

 

the reason I purport that citalopram is the source of the symptoms is because they increase when I take it and decrease when I don’t.   It’s as simple as that.   I can guarantee that I will see a resurgence of the shakiness and twitching when I take my dose tonight at 8:45pm, then being 48 hours from my last dose. 

I do not believe that this is prolonged withdrawal, as the exact symptoms I report are within the top side effects reported on this site and elsewhere for citalopram.  

 

Im not gonna stop the stuff cold turkey again.  I am considering halving my dose though.   Just considering.   The way I feel today is what I want to feel like going forward. 

 

Thanks MMT

 

ill keep you all posted. 

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ChessieCat
2 hours ago, Windsor77 said:

Im not gonna stop the stuff cold turkey again.  I am considering halving my dose though.

 

Please note that I am not suggesting that you halve your dose.  MMT has already given her thoughts.  Only you can make the decision on what to do, but please consider the following.

 

It is better to take the same amount every day, instead of skipping days.  You are using a liquid so you can get the dose you need.  The brain likes consistency.

 

If you decide to reduce your dose, then it would be better to reduce by less then 1/2 (maybe reduce 1/8 each time until you get to 1/2 dose - fast taper).  Again, this in not a suggestion of what to do, just an alternative to what you are proposing.  You might also find that you don't have to get to 1/2 your current dose before the shakiness lessens.  You need to balance the fast reduction to get rid of the shakiness with the possibility of getting withdrawal symptoms.  Making smaller reductions would given you better chance of slowing down if withdrawal symptoms appear.

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Windsor77

Thanks Chessie.  Understood.  

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