WantoffVen: venlafaxine

[Shep]

12 hours ago, WantoffVen said:

I'm a little bit confused what to be doing with my Diazepam which I take 2.5mg at 9:30-10:00 and then when needed anywhere from noon to 2:00pm and then around 6:00pm. Occasionally I take one more as needed.

 

Wantoff, as-needed benzo dosing makes tapering more difficult for several reasons:

• It masks symptoms from your antidepressant taper, which could cause you to continue the AD taper instead of holding and letting your nervous system catch up.
• Your nervous system is craving stability and consistency, so dosing unpredictably adds more stress to your nervous system. It's best to taper the AD slower or go into a long hold rather than try and manage your symptoms using additional benzos. 
• Benzos carry the risk of rebound and paradoxical reactions, which you may be having and conflating with AD withdrawal. Some people will cover the symptoms of rebound and paradoxical reactions by taking even more benzos. It's a vicious cycle that can be minimized by sticking to a strict dosing schedule. 
• When it comes time to taper the benzo, you won't have learned how to handle your symptoms without taking a drug. 

 

12 hours ago, WantoffVen said:

I know I was supposed to go to the Benzo site and post there but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to post there?

 

 

The benzo forum is here:

 

Benzo tapering and recovery

 

Please post a drug and symptoms journal as you were doing here.  And we'll work on setting up a strict benzo schedule so you minimize any interdose or rebound symptoms and can stabilize on a consistent dose. 

[WantoffVen]

Thank you, Shep but I still don't know when I should take my benzos exactly. The first one of the day 9:30 to 10:00 and 6:00 to 7:00 stay constant but it's the one in the middle that varies according to what I'm doing that day. For instance yesterday I went to the hair dresser at 1 so I took my second one prior to going so I wouldn't come due when I couldn't take it but then I was still okay until 6. So I am so confused as to what schedule I should be on?

 

[Shep]

You'll have to pick a schedule and then stick to it. And then allow yourself some flexibility. Getting your hair cut isn't something you do every day, so when you have an appointment and you need to change when you take it by an hour or two, that's okay. 

 

Just try to be as consistent as you can. 

 

On 12/6/2018 at 4:04 PM, WantoffVen said:

I'm a little bit confused what to be doing with my Diazepam which I take 2.5mg at 9:30-10:00 and then when needed anywhere from noon to 2:00pm and then around 6:00pm. Occasionally I take one more as needed.

 

I would be careful with these types of rescue doses. Diazepam's half life is up to 200 hours (8 days), so even taking a rescue dose once a week can elevate the drug in your system. 

 

As you're able, bringing in breathing techniques, learning mindfulness or CBT to redirect your thoughts, or my favorite, the "change the channel" technique, can all make a world of difference. 

 

And these are the things we need to learn anyway to get through stress without these drugs. 

[WantoffVen]

Update: Macrobid took care of UTI - YAY

 

On a worse note I am feeling so sad and depressed. Now that being said it's winter here, big falling out with family and husband is NOT putting up with my withdrawal and yelled at me last night about everything he doesn't like about me. So I'm battling all these external stressors.

 

I'm been holding at 77mg of Venlafaxine for going on 3 weeks and I'm debating whether to continue to hold or updose some.

 

Suggestions?

 

 

 

 

[Shep]

On 12/10/2018 at 1:07 PM, WantoffVen said:

I'm been holding at 77mg of Venlafaxine for going on 3 weeks and I'm debating whether to continue to hold or updose some.

 

Suggestions?

 

Were you stable at your last dose of venlafaxine? You were at 88 mg about 7 weeks ago (October 26). Are some of your current symptoms the result of your recent UTI and Macrobid use? 

 

I'll ask the mods more familiar with venlafaxine what a good updose amount would be.  Please provide the answers to these questions so they will have the information they need to assist you. 

 

Since you updosed in October and are now wanting to updose again, it's clear you are tapering too fast and really should consider micro-tapering. 

 

Micro-taper instead of 10% or 5% decreases
 

The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering

 

I think you'll feel better slowing your taper down. 

[Andie]

Hi WOV

 

I am curious to know which brand of Venlafaxine you are using. Is it Teva? 

 

Andie 

[WantoffVen]

Okay I have not done a good job with my signature. My only notes I have are from 9/22 until now so I updated signature with that. The UTI was stressing me out so I don't know if it was the Venlafaxine or the stress from the UTI. And I didn't notice anything when taking the Macrobid. I did go down and then back up and then down since then. Maybe I should not have done that but I obviously felt I needed to but I don't want to become a yoyo person either. I feel like I used to feel when my AD pooped out on me. In the past I just went on a different AD or updosed and I was fine. I never had to get used to a different AD. 

[Altostrata]

What were your symptoms after you reduced venlafaxine to 77mg? Did you have any withdrawal symptoms?

 

3 hours ago, WantoffVen said:

December 11

9:15 - get up and drink half decaf half coffee and try to wake up

9:30 - 2.5mg diazepam trying to get motivated

10:00 am - feeling anxiety and hot flashes

10:30am - breakfast take fish oil, turmeric, Vitamin D, Vitamin C, SKIP B Complex

11:30am - doing housework; brief cry

1:00pm - been doing housework hot flashes and sleepy

1:30pm - 2.5mg diazepam  feel sad and sleepy

2:00pm - gonna sit down and read and use computer still sleepy

3:30 pm - chelated magnesium mood is better

5:00pm - dinner, 77mg Venlafaxine, fish oil, probiotic, Simvastatin, feel pretty good

9:00 - chelated magnesium, 50 mg. diphenhydramine, eating popcorn and relaxing

12:15 went to bed took about 45 minutes to fall asleep

 

Why are youl taking 50mg diphendramine for sleep? Does the venlafaxine keep you awake? If so, you might move it gradually by an hour or 2 each day, to take it in the morning, then drop the diphendramine. It's best to take fewer drugs -- fewer side effects and interactions.

 

On 12/10/2018 at 10:07 AM, WantoffVen said:

I am feeling so sad and depressed. Now that being said it's winter here, big falling out with family and husband is NOT putting up with my withdrawal and yelled at me last night about everything he doesn't like about me. So I'm battling all these external stressors.

 

I would not updose venlafaxine for your reasons above.

 

First off, depression can be a side effect of benzos. If this is happening, perhaps you need to stop tapering venlafaxine and think about reducing your Valium.

 

When did you start taking simvastatin, and what for? Some people say statins can cause depression, too.

 

Please put ALL your drugs in the Drug Interactions Checker https://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.php
and copy and paste the results or a link to them in this topic.

 

It sounds like perhaps winter always makes you sad -- do you have a touch of Seasonal Affective Disorder? If so, you need more exposure to sunlight or a therapeutic lamp.

 

Also, if your emotional state is because of family stress, you will need to address the family situation rather than trying to correct it by taking a drug. Your family will always be your family no matter what drugs you take.

[WantoffVen]

I have taken the diphendramine for years now. This is my third week on 77 mg and the sadness and depression is getting worse. I feel just like I do when an AD poops out so that's why I thought I reduced the Venlafaxine too much. Also, I reduced too quickly in the beginning and maybe it's caught up with me. Initially the Venlafaxine made me so sleepy taking it in the morning that I moved it to evening but then I was on a higher dose. I don't really have any directives as far as the diazepam is concerned. My script is for 5mg. 3 times a day as needed and as you can see I have tapered down. But I can't say when I did it because until now I have not paid attention to when I took it because it was prn. Okay basically all my meds are exactly as they have been for years with the exception of dropping from 225mg. Venlafaxine to 77mg in 8 months. Yes I don't like winter and I can't change family and I realize that can be contributing. I wasn't suggesting the drug for that. I'll go check the drug interaction out. I've only put two meds in at a time. Can you put in more than 2?

[WantoffVen]

Okay only interaction was diphenhydramine and diazepam can cause increased drowsiness. Well since I am going to bed I don't see that as a problem. Maybe I'm wrong.

[WantoffVen]

I have skipped two days now of Super B Complex because Shep said that can be stimulating but I have taken it for a long time now.

[WantoffVen]

I've been on Simvastatin for years for high cholesterol. It's genetic in my family.

[Altostrata]

You can put ALL your drugs in the Drug Interactions Checker. After you do that, please post a link to the report here.

 

I do not believe those symptoms you reported are from reducing venlafaxine.

[WantoffVen]

Okay I found the drug interaction report site. I clicked on the url to copy and when I get I click paste and nothing happens. I give up. I'm not a computer whiz. Anyone can help?

 

 

[WantoffVen]

Okay this isn't working either. 

mednotes.htm

[ChessieCat]

Link:  https://www.drugs.com/interactions-check.php?drug_list=896-1617,2067-0,2296-0,862-441

 

Drugs included:

Benadryl (diphenhydramine)

simvastatin

venlafaxine

Valium (diazepam)

[Altostrata]

WantoffVen, did you read your drug interactions report?

 

Do you feel dopey during the day?

[WantoffVen]

I feel more sad and anxious during the day actually. But that has only been since I started weaning below I think it was 112.5mg Venlafaxine. And yes family problems have me very sad right now and Yes I Know a pill isn't the answer so that is why I mentioned the family problems. I recognize they are a contributor here.

[Altostrata]

If you don't want to take psychiatric drugs, you'll have to stop thinking of them as a remedy for the feelings that arise from your family problems.

[WantoffVen]

December 15

9:00am - up feel okay

9:30 - 2.5mg. diazepam and magnesium - slightly anxious

11:30 - lunch , fish oil, Vitamin C and D, turmeric, will wait couple weeks and add Stress B back in, feeling weepy

12:45pm - 2.5 diazepam - very anxious

1:30pm - anxiety subsiding

2:30pm - protein snack

3:30 - feeling much better

4:00pm - 2.5 diazepam going to church and out to dinner

7:00pm - back home did have drink with dinner

9:30pm - 2.5 mg diazepam, 25 mg diphenhydramine and popcorn

12:00am - went to bed

 

kind of an up and down day emotionally

 

[Shep]

6 hours ago, WantoffVen said:

7:00pm - back home did have drink with dinner

 

Like I and another mod posted over in your benzo thread, you are playing with fire by having even periodic drinks. 

 

We wouldn't keep posting about it if we weren't concerned. 

 

Since you had no problem making changes with your B vitamin and magnesium at the recommendation of SA, I hope you take our warnings and cautions about drinking alcohol to heart and make that change, as well. It's even more important. 

 

There aren't a lot of things we have control over during withdrawal, but this is one area where you have the capacity to radically improve your odds of having a successful taper. Not drinking is key. 

[WantoffVen]

Okay. I have been on ADs and benzos for years and used to drink a lot. Now why does it hurt to have one drink with dinner. I am not being contentious here. I just want to know why one drink is so harmful when I drank for years. Now you might tell me I shouldn't have but I never felt badly from it before. I'm just kind of confused why one drink matters so much. I do appreciate your information and counsel. Dropping Vitamin B is a lot easier I guess than the glass of wine with dinner that one enjoys. 

[ChessieCat]

You don't seem to be taking the advice about not drinking alcohol whilst you are taking a benzo seriously. 

 

I suggest you do your own research instead of expecting the mods to spend their valuable time trying to convince you.  They would not be giving you the advice they have if they didn't think it was truly serious.  They aren't party poopers.  They have the members' best interests at heart.

[Shep]

10 hours ago, WantoffVen said:

Okay. I have been on ADs and benzos for years and used to drink a lot.

 

I don't know how the ADs and benzos affected you, but for some people, these drugs can cause alcohol cravings. Dr. David Healy, an expert on psychiatric drug withdrawal, has been documenting these kinds of cases. This is an article from his blog:

 

Out of My Mind. Driven to Drink

 

Some of the commenters also share their stories. 

 

And you can read the experiences of SA members here:

 

My drugs, withdrawal and alcohol

 

Beer

 

10 hours ago, WantoffVen said:

Now why does it hurt to have one drink with dinner. I am not being contentious here. I just want to know why one drink is so harmful when I drank for years. Now you might tell me I shouldn't have but I never felt badly from it before. I'm just kind of confused why one drink matters so much.

 

Many people are able to tolerate a lot of things for a certain part of their taper and then all hell breaks loose. In the thread One theory of antidepressant withdrawal syndrome, Alto explains this phenomenon:

 

On 5/24/2011 at 10:59 PM, Altostrata said:

My guess is: The first phase of withdrawal, the acute phase, is the initial shock of withdrawal, with the most defined symptoms, such as brain zaps and nausea and possibly waves of unusually intense "depression" and "anxiety" -- actually, emotions generated by the neurological upset. Later, glutamatergic hyper-reactivity and autonomic instability take over. Often the autonomic instability causes wide hypersensitivity to drugs, supplements, and even foods.

 

You don't know when this autonomic instability will hit but rest assured, it WILL hit at some point for many (if not most) long term users of these drug. That's why we advocate a clean diet, as few supplements as possible, as few over-the-counter drugs as possible, and abstaining from alcohol. 

 

Benzos are sometimes referred to as "alcohol in a pill" because they hit the same GABA receptors as benzos do. Alcohol is a psychoactive drug that also effects the central nervous system. 

 

10 hours ago, WantoffVen said:

Dropping Vitamin B is a lot easier I guess than the glass of wine with dinner that one enjoys. 

 

You may want to find a good therapist that you trust in order to get support if your nightly drink with dinner holds more meaning for you than simply having a nightly drink with dinner. There's no shame in that and you may learn some great non-drug coping skills to get you through this.

 

Therapists aren't really up on psychiatric drug withdrawal, so you'll need to find one that you can work with. You may want to search the Mad in America provider directory. MiA is a website devoted to psychiatric drugs and the mental health system and is a trusted and vetted site to explore. 

 

MiA - Provider Directory

 

There's also a list of recommended doctors and therapists here on SA:

 

Recommended doctors, therapists, and clinics

 

As ChessieCat posted, you really do need to do some research. You've been using psych drugs for close to 40 years, so you are going to have to learn a lot of new non-drug ways of coping and ways of self-soothing as the numbing effects of these drugs are removed.

 

I was on a massive amount of psych drugs myself for 30 years, so I know it's possible to come off these drugs. But I would urge you to learn the non-drug coping skills so that as you come off these drugs, you can transition from using a drug to calm yourself to using mindfulness, gentle yoga, music, journaling, art, and any number of other non-drug coping strategies to get you through whatever stress comes your way.

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

[WantoffVen]

December 16

9:15am - up coughing and runny nose

9:30am - 2.5 mg diazepam and magnesium

10:15am - making chili, not coughing too badly, can't take cough syrup because serious interaction between cough syrup and venlafaxine - that is a pain when I am coughing a lot

11:00M - breakfast - fish oil, Vitamin C and D turmeric,  feel okay still under the weather

11:30am - not feeling well gonna collapse on couch and watch football

12:30pm - 2.5 diazepam - feeling sad

1:30pm - sadness is better - I think I am a ping pong ball

2:00pm - anxiety returning

3:00pm - feel better - most back and forth day I can remember

5:00pm - shower

5:30pm - dinner, 78mg venlafaxine (accidentally filled this weeks at 78 rather than 77), fish oil, probiotic, Simvastatin

6:30pm - 2.5 diazepam

9:00pm - 50 mg. diphenhydramine, magnesium, popcorn

12:00am - to bed

 

December 17

Stayed in bed until 4pm because sick - did get up to take diazepam twice and drink water

5:00pm - dinner 78 mg. venlafaxine, probiotic, Simvastatin, magnesium, fish oil

going to curl up on couch

Uneventful evening; cried once over family situation

9:15pm - 25 mg. diphenhydramine and popcorn

11:30pm - to bed

 

Feeling sick I really can't gauge my withdrawal feelings so much because I slept so much

[Carmie]

Hi WantoffVent, 

 

Just thought I’d pop by and say hi. The chilli sounds yummy, hope you enjoyed it. I’m sorry about your coughing.I don’t know if this will work or not but I read that pineapple juice can help with coughing. I’ve read that quite a few times in different places. Again, I’ve never tried it but it might be worth a go. Not sure if you need to make fresh juice or if bottled is okay. Just google it. Can’t hurt, and it sure would be yummy anyway, even if it doesn’t help.

 

Hope you get some more sleep tonight. What have you decided to do as regards the alcohol? 

 

Take care, sending hugs🤗

 

[WantoffVen]

Happy New Year to all. I needed some time away from posting and my husband has been home. I feel better when he's home. I guess I need interaction. I updosed my Venlafaxine to 80mg from 78 and I have been less weepy. Basically I'm doing okay for now. I'll continue to post symptoms when I feel I need help. Thanks all and Happy New Year again.

[WantoffVen]

Checking in. Still on 80 mg venlafaxine and diazepam 3 times a day spaced pretty evenly. I tried .5mg of Melatonin and it worked great for sleep. I assume that is preferable over the diphendramine I was taking. I'm having is occasional weeping and usually that lasts 30 seconds to a minute.  Some anxiety but using a meditation video I found on here I like. Soon I'll get back to my counsellor and we have yet to get to cognitive behavioral therapy. I'd like to wean to 75mg in the near future just so I only have the one capsule to take and then I'm gonna park it for awhile. Maybe 3 months or more. How does that sound? 

[WantoffVen]

I am still alive and thought I would do an update. I am currently at 77mg Venlafaxine and space out diazepam 2.5mg. during day. I got yet ANOTHER UTI. Did NOT go on Cipro but instead Cefuroxime which is not in that same class but since been on this antibiotic I've been more depressed and weepy - sigh. I'll just have to muscle through it and hope and pray I don't keep getting UTIs. The Physician's Assistant I saw said sometime in older women recurring UTIs just start happening. I am assuming the antibiotic is causing the weepiness because couple weeks prior to it I was doing great. Felt good. So I'll wait a couple weeks and see where I'm at. I should be able to make it to 75mg. Venlafaxine here fairly soon. It is a goal. I want to take one pill - no messing with beads - and sit on it for a long while. I tried Melatonin and .25mg worked wonderfully BUT I felt very drugged the next day darn it. 

 

 

[WantoffVen]

Update - I am weaned down to 75 mg of Venlafaxine. A little bit depressed but we are in the throes of winter and have some major decisions to make. I plan on staying on 75 mg. for 3 months? Is that too long? I was wondering now if mods would recommend keep going on Venlafaxine or taper some on Diazepam and then go to Venlafaxine? I am taking Diazepam 3 times daily at 2.5 mg. I guess no decisions need to be made right now since I feel like right now. I should just sit for awhile. Thanks for any input.

[Shep]

How is your sleep? If the Diazepam is helping with sleep, I wouldn't taper it until you are off (or at least further off) the Venlafaxine.

 

Hold for as long as you need. No one here will rush you.

[WantoffVen]

Okay. Thanks, Shep. I think if I just forget about meds for say 3 months that might bode well for any anxiety and maybe even occasional depression because a person can become obsessed with reducing the meds and tracking how they are feeling all the time. I'm gonna try to live each day where I'm at and TRY not to think about withdrawals.

[WantoffVen]

Well it's been a month since my last update. I am currently on 75mg of Venlafaxine and 2.5mg Diazepam 3 times a day. I am having withdrawal symptoms I didn't have before. Increased weepiness, depression, flulike symptoms (new). I want to sleep too much. I have to drag myself out of bed after 8 to 10 hours of sleep. I am debating whether to stick to 75 mg which I have been on a month or updose to 80 mg. What do you think @Altostrata? I think I can hang in there at 75mg - I'm just not liking this crying and depression. I don't want to be a baby and give in too quickly. I'm willing to stick with 75mg. for months if need be. But I'm wondering should I try to stabilize on a higher dose and stay there for months. Any advice appreciated.

[Altostrata]

10 hours ago, WantoffVen said:

I am having withdrawal symptoms I didn't have before. Increased weepiness, depression, flulike symptoms (new). I want to sleep too much. I have to drag myself out of bed after 8 to 10 hours of sleep.

 

Why do you think these are withdrawal symptoms? They could be side effects of diazepam. @Shep

[WantoffVen]

Well I guess because I've weaned on the antidepressant and not the benzo. And Shep told me she thought I should be on a lower dose of Venlafaxine before I tackle the Diazepam. And I never had these side effects on a higher dose of Ven and I have actually weaned down quite a bit on the Venlafaxine. 

[Altostrata]

You reduced to 75mg venlafaxine more than a month ago. When did these new symptoms show up?

 

It's possible that since you reduced venlafaxine, the diazepam is affecting you more. Venlafaxine can be stimulating, while diazepam is sedating.